High Comp 4.6 Straight Gas. What to use to return to straight fuel

[Lockee]

Hi Considering buying a classic with top hat liner fitted low km 5.6 but runs straight gas.

Would like to return to straight petrol as it is a play car.

Recommendations for ecu to run this

[nismine01]

As stated above I don't know how to do it but the ignition timing will be advanced a long way to run straight gas to its best benefit.

You would have to make sure the ignition timing was returned to standard to make it work properly. That is if they had advanced the timing.

Cheers

Mike

[101RRS]

What manifold system does it currently have - can be almost anything?

[PLR]

Without the information ,

i`d pressume it is running a form of injected lpg because of the question ?

If so it is probably piggy backing the petrol ecu ?

The std 3.9 Rover ecu can be modded for a 4.6 if the need is felt .

Our RRC with a 4.6 has a 14CUX that has been altered by Davis Motor Works

The ECU alters fuel and not ignition so i`d consider to be worth while it would need to be used pretty hard , or do alot of heavy towing ETC .

If it`s basically std Rover and it has a distributor and as has been suggested the advance has been altered for lpg , it would need changing back to a petrol curve .

I guess 5 is beside 4 on the keyboard ?

[Lockee]

Oops yes a 4.6.

Std 3.9 Manifold with gas injection in injector location.

LPG makes sense but not available in the bush.

Will get more info.

[101RRS]

Ok so if it has the 4Cuix system I guess they also put the 3.9 dizzy and timing cover on the front.

Then as suggested by PLR, the 4CUIx ecu is probably there some where, if not source one and get it chipped for the 4.6. I am also guessing you will need to get injectors etc. You will need a MAF as well etc. Timing at around 9-10 degrees BTDC will work with both gas and petrol but the new tuning process will sort that.

Guessing a bit as specific details of what you have is still not totally clear.

As a suggestion - why not take it back to dual fuel - Put the petrol injectors back where they belong and get the manifold modified to take the gas injectors - best of both worlds.

Garry

[Lockee]

Would prefer straight fuel for availability and one system

[Lockee]

Motor is a fully rebuilt 4.6 block with shaved 3.9 rebuilt heads and running straight LPG.
Bottom end was rebuilt by Speed Works in Ringwood. It included brand new High comp pistons (almost the last ones you could buy in AUS), all new conrods, and new bearings.
Heads were reconditioned by Fred Smith and shaved so the bowl suited the 4.6 and compression was not lost

Injector holes were blocked up, I think resin or sikaflex or something permanent so that might not be possible. Putting it on carby would work but not very efficient.
If you could get fuel rails, injectors in you would still need all the sensors ( I think there were 3 or 4 that are necessary) ecu and all relevant wiring.

[Meccles]

Sounds like a very nice engine. Maybe one of these on it would be great fit:D modern simple and would go well. The second one that does ignition timing as well

fitechefi.com/

[Meccles]

The GoEFI4 - read the reviews you can actually use it on any horsepower from 150 up. US$995 which for complete new self learning EFI unit is pretty good value. That teamed with your solid engine would be a really nice combination you'd think:)

[Lockee]

Yes leaning towards that way rather than a Rover intake

[Lockee]

Think I have decided on the edelbrock manifold and a Holley EFI Throttle Body style.

[Davo]

Please do a follow-up once you've got it sorted out, as there would be a few of us interested in how it goes.

[Lockee]

Can't find anyone who has done it. More I do anything with the factory efi the more I think this is the best way to go

[Mercguy]

Proper WBo2 / Sequential inj / cdi/wasted spark or throw the 14CUX back on?

[Lockee]

Well we have an Edelbrock Performer manifold

[Davo]

Well that's a good start!

[Lockee]

Back

[Mercguy]

Wow Lockee, I would have thought there were plenty of THOR and GEMS setups from p38a's laying around. It's not like they are valuable [bigsmile][tonguewink]

If you have no luck, then perhaps it will be a case of purchasing a P38a that has "failed to proceed" or even a late D2.
I've seen a LOT of stuff for sale recently but the asking prices are right up there in the "Tell him he's dreamin' " category.

Maybe Richard LandyNut has something up in qld. or all4x4 up in newcastle.??

Other than that, I'd probably consider saving some pennies and going for a complete standalone system. not without it's hurdles though...

I better clarify that statement for the benefit of others reading and not Lockee.

For anyone considering this kind of 'modification' There are a lot of options - Variety is the spice of life apparently - especially when it comes to Engine management systems.... There are also a LOT of considerations to make.

For a rover V8 (or actually, any v8 swap) an Engine Management System or "ECU" unit such as an Autronic (http://www.autronic.com.au/sm4mr_ecu.php) (sm4) or Adaptronic (http://www.adaptronic.com.au/product/e1280s/) (e1280s) would be a completely appropriate choice and provide a far better resolution than anything one could get out of a thor or gems setup (or heaven forbid mention of megasq*** amateur electronics). They are both high quality Australian made products, worthy of high praise - and lack of marketing BS. But they are also the price of a small laptop computer (and need a laptop computer to program the setup and cal files) so sometimes the "cost" is not the actual cost...

A motec (http://www.motec.com.au/products-currentrange/product-directory/) m800 is right out of the $$$$ ballpark, and they want you to pay extra $$$$ for logging function which is absolutely absurd. so don't waste 3x the cars value on an injection system like that. It's good, don't get me wrong, but it's not THAT good- however their marketing dept will tell you it is all that and a bag of chips. They're the forerunner to McLaren Technologies, have roots deep in motorsport and prices that are commensurate with professional racing budgets - but that doesn't make them value for money, or suitable for an individual on a 'budget'. if you have a spare 10K AUD, then you can start here, and keep spending. One would also assume you have an extensive tool budget, laptop and sponsorship deal to go with your racing stripes on the rover...

Haltech (http://www.haltech.com/tag/efi/) is also on the marketing rage bandwagon- and also going the 'proprietary' route. they want to lure you into their pricing scheme with all kinds of promises and then you find youself having to purchase 'their' branded (or rebranded) ancillary parts- and tbh, the ecu resolution sucks. in a lot of cases we're talking really low sampling rates on a lot of parameters, where other competitors are 10x as fast. They promote their stuff to the JDM crowd - because where there is money and no brains, there is a big market profit. Good on them for chasing the $$$.

There are other systems like VEMS (http://www.vems.com), Trijekt (http://www.trijekt.de/index.php?id=1&L=1), Microtech (http://microtechefi.com) (popular with the wankel engines) Link Ecu (http://www.linkecu.com), EMS (http://www.emsefi.com), Wolf3D (http://www.wolfems.com.au), AEM (http://www.aemelectronics.com) etc. Each with their own proposition and values, and 'support'. None should be discounted - what one should look for is suitability (i.e. meets all needs) value for money - and is within budget, but one that also doesn't constrain unit functionality to the point where it will cost a lot more money later to make adjustments or 'add functionality' - a couple of good examples are open loop tuning and datalogging - which really are mandatory for a DIY install.

So I'll fill you in on the "support" thing. - You will get only what you PAY for.
Please be acutely aware of the costs associated with the PAID support (which is mandatory for some of these setups as they don't want you to know anything until you pay extra to learn - see motec/haltech examples).
I can't see anyone fitting a properly sorted engine management system to a 4.6 for under 4 grand. That includes ECU, new bosch sensors (tps,map,coolant,crank,cam,UEGO o2) and injectors and ignition drivers, pumps, and pressure regulator.
Then, depending on your chosen ECU, you're either looking at a day on the dyno, or 3 days on the dyno... or with an autotune and UEGO maybe a couple of hours max.

On average, sorting out a DIY engine management system is usually around the $5K AUD mark, and a fair bit of your time... Once it's done properly however, it is absolutely reliable. Any failure is often attributed to the use of poor specification or worn sensors, or installation shortcuts - you know, things like using tape instead of heatshrink and poor routing of wiring, or location of sensors....

Also, bear in mind that the factory setups are not designed to be high resolution or widely configurable. They're designed to the minimum necessary resolution in closed loop, to keep manufacturing costs profitable, and engine mapping extremely conservative.
WBo2 is a necessity for any level of increased performance as well as engine safety. - and if you do this to your 4.6, make sure you have a sensor in each collector. SEE - (techEdge (http://www.wbo2.com)).
Aussies are by far some of the most respected engineers in this field - and you get what you pay for.

ebay is not your friend when it comes to efi hardware.

For fuel injectors, buy refurbed ones out of the US cheaper (shipped incl!!!) than you can get them done here. I have no idea why we overprice this basic service. For example, I bought a full set of siemens injectors (genuine MB parts) refurbed with 10 year warranty, for an E55 AMG M113 V8 for $125. plus $27 shipping, they landed here in 4 days.
yep. 4 days. Just so you know, they're over $1800 for a set from a spare parts supplier, and a 2 week minimum wait. What a load of hogs.

Just be aware what you're getting yourself into -

You can do this "on the cheap" but I've seen far too many projects unfinished, ruined, or worse - destroyed through poor planning and understanding of what it takes to make an engine run reliably, and deliver the expected performance increase.
It's not rocket science either - it simply comes down to purchasing quality components, careful planning of component installation, proper wiring standards and an understanding of the basics of engine management.
When you have a vehicle that has 80% of what you need already, it doesn't mean that the 80% is actually any good - and this is where I see a lot of failures. Especially in fuel delivery, poor sensor location, really [B]really bad wiring and aggressive mapping parameters by so-called "specialist" tuners.

If you are interested in a project like this as a DIY, then just have a look at some of those links I embedded above, check out online suppliers like efihardware (https://www.efihardware.com/contact_us.php) who stock reputable brands and not ripoff prices.
start making a list of everything you're likely to need - sensors, wiring connectors, equipment - tools... and work out your budget.
Look for things overseas that you may need, but cannot easily obtain locally - sometimes it will be stuff like specific diameter 60-2 trigger wheels to fit balancer pulleys or dampers etc - or distributor blanking plates / cam sensor adapters etc... even certain knock sensors and the like - but first get hold of the basic stuff, and don't go too big or too small on injector sizes, but rather look for ones that match OE spec, but have 8-hole nozzles etc. which is where you will pick up gains in economy, and reduced duty cycles etc.

If all of that seems too much, you can always pay a specialist to perform these installations. It's often backed by a warranty, and then You'll quickly see why the aftermarket solutions are around - they are more time and cost-effective solutions, but the up-front costs are a bit of a hurdle.

If you're still not sold on the idea or it escapes your confidence in your own ability, There's always the twin carb option... [bigwhistle] Or a diesel. [biggrin] (arguably more expensive than aftermarket EMS).

The thor manifold is the one I'd use on a 4.6 if I were doing an aftermarket EMS.

Fair bit of food for thought there for anyone considering undertaking this kind of project....

[Lockee]

That is why $1300 holley is looking attractive

[Lockee]

Sniper EFI - Holley Performance Products (https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/sniper_efi/)

[Meccles]

Or the Fitech[emoji1303]

[Lockee]

Holley seems to have less hassles than fitech. Like the dash and self learning of this over 14cux with nooxygen sensor stepper motors etc

[Davo]

Thanks for that detailed post, Mercguy. You've pretty much answered every question I ever had on changing to EFI, which I'm not likely to do!

[Davo]

Most of that American throttle body stuff looks pretty good, but it is meant for American usage and I wonder about how it would go on the usual extended corrugations and so we have up here. My biggest concern with anything electronic on an engine is the ultimate "what if it doesn't start?" test. My CD175 carburettors did this to me in Pt Hedland last year but I was able to sort it out pretty easily. The upgrade from these will be SUs.

[Lockee]

mate has done his 4.6 Haltech allhimself about 4k

[Traco]

On my 3.5 Rover V8 car I went from factory Strombergs to twin SUs (much better) then to a four barrel (Edelbrock) when I put in a 4.6. I've fitted a wideband sensor and AEM gauge so the air fuel mixture can be trimmed easily at all points in the rev range with a slight
turning of the idle screws or swapping jets and needles around (on the Edlebrock this takes only a few minutes to do). It starts easily, idles at 750 rpm and just keeps on pulling with a glorious sound. And it's simple to adjust and repair if anything does need doing. The new throttle body kits coming out of the States look good and are tempting to try, but if it aint broke....

[Lockee]

127779

[Mercguy]

127779


Vroom.

[Lockee]

127817127818

[DoubleChevron]

If you guys like a project ... How about a megasquirt/megajolt system..... I've been itching to try one of these for years. I'd probably just use falcon sensors and transformer coils as you could find them anywhere.

seeya,
Shane L.

[Lockee]

Thanks Shane. Couple mates run them with good results. But dollar makes them expensive

[Lockee]

Keep coming back to Holley Sniper

[Meccles]

I've been checking them out - if I didn't have a brand new Edelbrock 500 I think it would be a toss up between Sniper or Fitech. But reviews all reckon support from Holley is better. So would probably go Sniper. Have seen some combo packages of Sniper with Fitech fuel command center that just look so good and easy to install. If funds permitted (which they don't[happycry]) that's way I'd be going.

[Lockee]

Getting closer to the Sniper
Will use a long Range tank with suitable in tank pump

[Lockee]

New fuel lines and return

[Lockee]

https://m.summitracing.com/parts/sum-240500

[350RRC]

https://m.summitracing.com/parts/sum-240500

That's brilliant for the price.

DL

[DoubleChevron]

MS3 ready to go by the looks of it ...

FS: MegaSquirt 3 + MS3X + looms (http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/parts-sale-wanted/129197-fs-megasquirt-3-ms3x-looms.html)


why does this stuff always popup infront of me when I have no time ... and even less money :(

[101RRS]

Having just gone through the build process for MS3 I would recommend something else like the Summit. Yes when all set up you may be able to ring every last kw and nm out of the MS3 but it is a bit of a pain. MS3 is an never ending money pit as there is always something or some other option needed.

By the way - anyone got a MS3 map for a hi comp Thor 4.6 but running batch injections and EDIS8 for ignition [bigsmile1].

Garry

[Lockee]

So after 3000km on gas since I have had it.

Gas works well apart from a few things
Hot idle is high
Stalled a couple of times when stopping on steep hills
Cost of gas 69-95 cents

It's performance is great
Line ball with mates 4.6 in a Disco with similar specs but Haltech EFi 4.3 vs 4.1 gears and 35s vs 33s

[Pedro_The_Swift]

They do perform better on LPG,, [thumbsupbig]

[Lockee]

They do perform better on LPG,, [thumbsupbig]

But LPG availability and price now have me wanting petrol again