Defender 2016 Chassis

[Dallas]

Hi all,

I recently had a few days camping up the beach. When while pulling a bogged Kombi out of a bog on the beach I ripped a nice slot in my nice 2016 Defender 110's driver side chassis rail. There were a few well chosen expletives when I saw the damage while removing the "D" shackle. Definitely not a happy camper that day.
131021

I used the same snatch strap and method I have used on countless other recoveries performed with my 200 TDI 110 Defender and the old girl's chassis rail is still intact. I have raised the issue with LR and still waiting on a response. Has anyone else had any issues with the new Defender chassis'? I am no expert but the steel just doesn't look as thick as the old chassis. Chassis welding is a bit of a NO-NO but has anyone got some good advice on a repair solution?

131022

[weeds]

If that at the rear??

Umm, pretty sure they not for recovery and are only tie down point for when on a flatbed. Other will confirm. Either way a decent boiler maker would repair it.

[austastar]

Hi,
Yep, that is a tie down point, not meant, designed, or rated for recovery.
Should be easily patched/fixed as you will be getting rated recovery points to use next time? Yes/no?
Cheers

[roverrescue]

Is the chassis at the pull out bulging outwards because that tie down is bolted into an internal flange nut?captive. As opposed to on older defenders which were thru bolted.

If so that would explain the failure - single shear of outer flange of chassis

LR making a captive flange nut
modification makes more sense than chassis material changes at end of model life.
Captive nuts much quicker to install tie downs on the line

Steve

[Dallas]

Thanks for your quick responses. According to the LR 110 Defender workshop manuals these are recovery points. The manual actually gives instructions on how to use them. Albeit it they say snatch straps should be avoided, but after years of using snatch straps on the old girl with no issues I am concerned about this 2016 chassis' steel. I am not sure where these new chassis are manufactured. TATA the owners of JLR and are also a very large Indian steel maker. Part of the reason for my post is to check to see if anyone else has had this sort of issue in these newer Defenders. I hope my issue is just bad luck on the day and not too expensive to repair.

My only concerns with the welding is the engineering regulations restricting chassis welding, hence my involving LR in this issue. Perhaps they can recommend a solution for repair.

131023

[Dallas]

Is the chassis at the pull out bulging outwards because that tie down is bolted into an internal flange nut?captive. As opposed to on older defenders which were thru bolted.

If so that would explain the failure - single shear of outer flange of chassis

LR making a captive flange nut
modification makes more sense than chassis material changes at end of model life.
Captive nuts much quicker to install tie downs on the line

Steve
Thanks Steve.

Not sure if it is a captive nut attachment as the visibility on the other side of the chassis rail is obstructed. But I suspect not, as I would have thought it would have left a more irregular tear. However I will check. LR actually did make changes to the chassis a little while back. They changed the width between chassis rails + a few other design changes. I was hoping to use my old tow bar and bull bar from the old girl but alas they didn't fit.

[roverrescue]

Towing is very different to recovery
Have a look on the inside of the chassis rail
Is it a tutu bolt with washer and nut such as your old defender or is it as I suspect internally bolted to a flange captive nut?

Repair will be easy

LR chassis are not made of anything special
Clean / cut / plate - install through bolted Jate style recovery point if that's what you want

Steve

[Rolly]

Hi Dallas,

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news however pg 104 of the Defender Owners handbook clearly states that "The towing eyes at the front and rear of the vehicle are designed for on-road recovery only".
I looked into this quite closely as needed recovery points prior to going up to Cape york.
I had an ARB deluxe Bull bar fitted,.it also stated it was not rated to be used in recovery(this includes attaching swivel hooks etc).

I finally opted for the APT front guard wich has rated recovery points integrated.

Good Luck.

[tact]

Thanks for your quick responses. According to the LR 110 Defender workshop manuals these are recovery points. The manual actually gives instructions on how to use them. Albeit it they say snatch straps should be avoided, but after years of using snatch straps on the old girl with no issues I am concerned about this 2016 chassis' steel. I am not sure where these new chassis are manufactured. TATA the owners of JLR and are also a very large Indian steel maker. Part of the reason for my post is to check to see if anyone else has had this sort of issue in these newer Defenders. I hope my issue is just bad luck on the day and not too expensive to repair.

My only concerns with the welding is the engineering regulations restricting chassis welding, hence my involving LR in this issue. Perhaps they can recommend a solution for repair.



The page you posted refers to those eyes as towing or tie down points. Not "recovery points". There is a vast difference.

for example... You might tow your neighbour's car to a workshop. Very different and much less stress and strain on the tow point when pulling an otherwise unencumbered vehicle along a reasonably supportive surface than, for example, snatching out a vehicle down to the sills in a bog.

[Graekynn]

The bolt for these front tie down points on my car does go through the chassis rail and looked like it was sleeved; and this bolt location is actually used for the mounting of the APT steering guard. However the steering guard mounts in four places which helps distribute the shock load of a recovery over multiple points.

The exact wording of that manual excerpt should have been written better to more explicitly state that these are tie down/road towing points only. With regards to the damage to your chassis it can certainly be repaired by a decent fabricator. To answer your initial concerns I wouldn't be chalking this up to a weak chassis, just a life lesson about rated recovery points.

Hope it all works out.

[Dallas]

Hi Dallas,

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news however pg 104 of the Defender Owners handbook clearly states that "The towing eyes at the front and rear of the vehicle are designed for on-road recovery only".
I looked into this quite closely as needed recovery points prior to going up to Cape york.
I had an ARB deluxe Bull bar fitted,.it also stated it was not rated to be used in recovery(this includes attaching swivel hooks etc).

I finally opted for the APT front guard wich has rated recovery points integrated.

Good Luck.

Thanks Rolly. I didn't look in the owners manual, I took my reference from my LR's manufacturer's workshop manual where they mention that you should avoid the snatch strap recovery. (don't ask me where I got it from) I certainly will avoid it with this new 110 in the future and I guess I will just use to the old girl when I am really remote. This new defender is a great vehicle to drive but I guess I am a little old school and have a lot more trust in the old girl's capabilities and limitations.

Thanks again, much appreciated.

[weeds]

Parking rules....if you don't have a tow bar I just spotted this. Looks like a good solution.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/478.jpg

[Dallas]

The bolt for these front tie down points on my car does go through the chassis rail and looked like it was sleeved; and this bolt location is actually used for the mounting of the APT steering guard. However the steering guard mounts in four places which helps distribute the shock load of a recovery over multiple points.

The exact wording of that manual excerpt should have been written better to more explicitly state that these are tie down/road towing points only. With regards to the damage to your chassis it can certainly be repaired by a decent fabricator. To answer your initial concerns I wouldn't be chalking this up to a weak chassis, just a life lesson about rated recovery points.

Hope it all works out.


Thank you for your advice. Yes, just another life lesson.
My 30+ years of driving Land Rovers in the bush has taught me many things. Most importantly never take anything for granted and in this case I thought what I had done for years in my old girls would translate unmodified to the new one. Sloppy on my part.

[weeds]

Don't stress it, most of us make mistakes from time to time.

[Dallas]

The bolt for these front tie down points on my car does go through the chassis rail and looked like it was sleeved; and this bolt location is actually used for the mounting of the APT steering guard. However the steering guard mounts in four places which helps distribute the shock load of a recovery over multiple points.

The exact wording of that manual excerpt should have been written better to more explicitly state that these are tie down/road towing points only. With regards to the damage to your chassis it can certainly be repaired by a decent fabricator. To answer your initial concerns I wouldn't be chalking this up to a weak chassis, just a life lesson about rated recovery points.

Hope it all works out.


Thank you for your advice. Yes, just another one of those life lessons. Still got a few to go :-)
My 30+ years of driving Land Rovers in the bush has taught me many things. Most importantly never take anything for granted and in this case I thought what I had done for years in my old girls would translate unmodified to the new one. Sloppy on my part.

[roverrescue]

Surely we are talking rear tie downs here
OP picture has a fuel tank in it
Anyone with a new fender want to check if they are thru bolted or not?

Although incs option looks good I would trust the chassis rails bridled over the rear cross member for heavy recovery

Al rear tow bar attaches to chassis rails as well as cross member

S

[tact]

Parking rules....if you don't have a tow bar I just spotted this. Looks like a good solution.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/478.jpg

Apparently the TDCi (PUMA) Defenders are not as strong across the rear crossmember as the older models. Google long enough (as I did a few years ago when researching rear recovery points) and you will find references to this.

I was originally going to get rid of the standard towing arrangement because it hung down too low. Then bolt nato/pintle hook to the rear crossmember. Advice I found online was not to do so on a Puma without added steps to spread load on the rear crossmember.

So unless the arrangement pictured is bolted right through and through a decent sized reinforcing plate behind the crossmember... I wouldn't trust it in a tough recovery.

[trout1105]

If you do have a tow hitch then this is by far your best recovery option [thumbsupbig]

131033

[tact]

Surely we are talking rear tie downs here
OP picture has a fuel tank in it
Anyone with a new fender want to check if they are thru bolted or not?

Although incs option looks good I would trust the chassis rails bridled over the rear cross member for heavy recovery

Al rear tow bar attaches to chassis rails as well as cross member

S

Just posted saying much the same - wouldn't trust a recovery point fitted direct to the rear crossmember (of a Puma) unless bolted through and with with a reinforcing plate behind the crossmember. Here are pics of my factory towbar (more a low hanging "plough blade") and what I modified to: military grade (came off an army vehicle) pintle, bolted right through with a load spreader plate behind the crossmember and retained the bridling to chassis rails.

131035131034

[Graekynn]

Surely we are talking rear tie downs here
OP picture has a fuel tank in it
Anyone with a new fender want to check if they are thru bolted or not?

Although incs option looks good I would trust the chassis rails bridled over the rear cross member for heavy recovery

Al rear tow bar attaches to chassis rails as well as cross member

S

You're probably right, the back of my 90 looks a little different to the photo and to be honest I thought that style of loop was only fitted to the front but a quick check of my car shows I have them on the back as well. They are through bolted and sleeved to support the box section in my case.

Dallas - your LR experience outstrips mine by a factor of 10 and im still learning about these machines myself! As far as im concerned the fact that a snatch recovery didnt rip the tie down out of the chassis completely speaks to the strength of the chassis and ability to withstand forces in excess of design, I wouldnt hesitate to do it if I was really stuck and out of options. However, if it helps in my case im considering a hayman reese style tow pack which will double as a rear recovery point with the block insert shown above as it has multiple points of attachment.

[Tombie]

Doesn’t take much (unnoticeable) difference with a snatch strap to turn a nice recovery into a nasty one..

What you’ve done before may just not have equated to this time.

Certainly with ANY year using that tab to pull from is playing with fire..

Also comes down to the strap used (rating) and the angle of the pull.

We all live and learn, just plate it up, paint it and move on.. with a real recovery point!

[Pickles2]

Pretty sure that there is mention in the driver's handbook that these points are only suitable for very light "on road" recovery & not for off road recovery with more "stress"?
Pickles.

[Dallas]

You're probably right, the back of my 90 looks a little different to the photo and to be honest I thought that style of loop was only fitted to the front but a quick check of my car shows I have them on the back as well. They are through bolted and sleeved to support the box section in my case.

Dallas - your LR experience outstrips mine by a factor of 10 and im still learning about these machines myself! As far as im concerned the fact that a snatch recovery didnt rip the tie down out of the chassis completely speaks to the strength of the chassis and ability to withstand forces in excess of design, I wouldnt hesitate to do it if I was really stuck and out of options. However, if it helps in my case im considering a hayman reese style tow pack which will double as a rear recovery point with the block insert shown above as it has multiple points of attachment.


Thanks for the info. Much appreciated. I am just waiting for a response from LR. Once I have that, my mate and I will fabricate something.