Giandel Pure Sine Wave Inverters

[Milton477]

Has anyone had experience with this brand of inverter?
I am looking at a 3300/6600W version to power my caravan when off grid. Large Shell Pure Sine Wave Power Inverter 3300W/6600W 12V-240V+Remote Controller | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/232526803225)

I like the fact that the 12V terminals have a stud & hex nut type connection rather than a knurled nut which would be finger tightened.
The inverter is no doubt a re-branded generic chinese made inverter but hopefully with some Australian standards input.
The unit is supplied from an Australian address.

The rating is much larger than I actually need but I figured that bigger is cooler. Battery power will be from 360Ah of LifePo4.

Cheers

[DeanoH]

Interesting reading the 'blurb' where it says ............... can be overloaded to 3300 watt ............... as well as continuous output power 3300 watt.
This translates to a 12 volt battery current of 275 amps :o and if the claimed surge power delivery of 6600 watts is to be believed then over 500 amps. By the look of the provided battery cables they would surely end up as a melted mess if used for the 'intended purpose', so I'd be a bit wary about the whole unit.

What sort of power loading do you intend using this inverter for ?

Deano :)

[Milton477]

Thanks for your thoughts Deano, hence why I asked the question. I am also sceptical about these sorts of devices at theses sorts of prices. A reputable brand like Victron would be 8 or 10 times the price for the same spec.

I will be running toaster/microwave/fans/PC's & occasionally the aircon (if it will start it) so 12V/150A would be the maximum continuous draw. I am under no illusions about the cabling supplied & will change it for something suitable like 25mm2 battery cable or tri rated switchboard cable.

There is always ebay's dispute process if it fails to meet expectations i suppose.

Thanks
Rory

[trout1105]

360AH is a Lot of stored power But an air con and occasional use of the toaster/Microwave will eat that energy up pretty quickly.
I have a similar inverter (2000w) and it powers my small inverter stick welder and microwave that I take away on trips easily But I haven't used it continuously for any length of time so I don't know if it can handle a continues draw of high ampage use.
I only paid $150-$200 for the inverter and for what I use it for I find it to be great value for money.

I am interested to see how yours performs $335.99 is Not a huge outlay so I think that I is probably worth giving this a go.

[Old Farang]

Any wattage calculations you do need to be x 1.2, or add 20% at a minimum. They are also very inefficient at low loads and will probably draw a lot more than you realise.

I would not even attempt to run an air conditioner off a unit of that size.
Intermittent use of a toaster and / or microwave would probably be ok, but make sure the inverter is operated in a well ventilated cool place.
These things also need a good ground wire. They put out a lethal voltage just the same as the mains.

[Homestar]

Based on the output versus price is will be just like any other cheap Chinese inverter - it should work fine for as long as it works.

If you've lashed out on a 360Ah battery why scimp on a crappy inverter? A good one that's capable of 3000 watts would be $1,500 plus but you get what you pay for.

I've got an Aussie made Selectronic unit but I don't think they make them any more - but worth looking for a second hand one - they are bullet proof but very large and heavy compared to the cheap versions.

My 600 watt unit (peaks at 1,500 watt for 2 minutes) were going for near $1000 new, years ago but I snagged mine second hand for $400. Has an auto sleep mode so doesn't draw power when not in use which inverters do - a unit like that would draw around 2 amps sitting there doing nothing.

Also, most cheap units aren't suitable to hard wire into an isolated power system like a caravan as the neutral can't be earthed without damaging the unit usually.

[nismine01]

Hi, I am using a 2800 - 5600 Giandel Pure Sine Wave inverter in the caravan.

I have about 250 Watts of solar panels, 2 X 100 AH Lead Crystal batteries (real good things from Traxide).

I can run the roof top air conditioner for at least two hours (haven't tried longer).

The inverter is mounted under a seat in the caravan so the wired remote is handy, just ran the wire to a suitable available spot to turn it on and off.

It was supplied with twin wiring to carry the load but I went to an auto electrician and had heavy right length cables made to suit.

I'm happy with the unit, I considered a 2800 was plenty big enough with the 5600 kicker on air con start up. Incidentally, they recommend to turn the load on first and the inverter does a soft start.

Cheers

Mike

Oh as per another post on here, these have an external earthing post so they can be made safe.

[nismine01]

At $269 for my 2800 vs your over $1500 I look at it like this.

Mine only lasts, say three years and yours lasts fifteen years, I'm in front, mine cost less that $100 a year yours cost $100 a year.

Now if mine lasts five years I'm miles in front value wise, as I have one of these Giandels I can tell you they are not 'crappy' as you suggest.

When Japanese cars first came on the market they were sneered at.

When Korean cars first came on the market they were sneered at, both with good reason but we don't sneer at them now.

I really wish I could buy Australian but until they, or we, become price competitive unfortunately it aint going to happen.

Tindel Solar here in SA have done it, better quality than any where else and at equal or better pricing, the other companies just have to catch up.

Having said that we are all driving imported vehicles, Land Rovers.

Regards

Mike[bighmmm]

[Homestar]

Hi, I am using a 2800 - 5600 Giandel Pure Sine Wave inverter in the caravan.

I have about 250 Watts of solar panels, 2 X 100 AH Lead Crystal batteries (real good things from Traxide).

I can run the roof top air conditioner for at least two hours (haven't tried longer).

The inverter is mounted under a seat in the caravan so the wired remote is handy, just ran the wire to a suitable available spot to turn it on and off.

It was supplied with twin wiring to carry the load but I went to an auto electrician and had heavy right length cables made to suit.

I'm happy with the unit, I considered a 2800 was plenty big enough with the 5600 kicker on air con start up. Incidentally, they recommend to turn the load on first and the inverter does a soft start.

Cheers

Mike

Oh as per another post on here, these have an external earthing post so they can be made safe.

But is the Neutral at earth potential? Just earthing it isn't enough...

To be used safely in a caravan either the electronics need to hold the neutral conductor close to earth potential or the neutral itself needs to be earthed - which will kill some inverters.

Not saying those aren't big most Chinese units aren't the best is all.

[Homestar]

At $269 for my 2800 vs your over $1500 I look at it like this.

Mine only lasts, say three years and yours lasts fifteen years, I'm in front, mine cost less that $100 a year yours cost $100 a year.

Now if mine lasts five years I'm miles in front value wise, as I have one of these Giandels I can tell you they are not 'crappy' as you suggest.

When Japanese cars first came on the market they were sneered at.

When Korean cars first came on the market they were sneered at, both with good reason but we don't sneer at them now.

I really wish I could buy Australian but until they, or we, become price competitive unfortunately it aint going to happen.

Tindel Solar here in SA have done it, better quality than any where else and at equal or better pricing, the other companies just have to catch up.

Having said that we are all driving imported vehicles, Land Rovers.

Regards

Mike[bighmmm]

But is it SAFE! That's the point I'm trying to make - cheap inverters usually aren't designed to be permanently installed in vans like this.

No good being in front if your dead...

Also, nothing like a good camping weekend being ruined when the inverter dies on the first night your away.

Again, not saying these aren't safe, just trying to get across the safety aspects here - I work with isolated power supplies for a living is all, without knowing the electrical details of the unit I wouldn't be making it a part of a fixed wiring installation.

I've said enough - you'll either check into this or not give a **** and blindly but one - no skin off my back, but the OP asked for advice and I offered some.

What you choose to do with it is your concern.

Chinese versus other countries has been done to death - some of it's good, some of it's ****, working out the difference can be the hard bit but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Oh, and an RCD won't save you if the inverter isn't right for the application and fails either, but I'm not going into fault paths here and what an RCD is and isn't good for if you don't understand the basics.

You're call...

[101RRS]

I have a 300/600w Giandel Pure Sine Wave Inverter that cost about $89. I have had it for about 4 years and it is one of the best pieces of kit I have bought. I have used it on a lot of sensitive equipment as I bought it as an alternative to a 12v transformer unit to run my laptop - now I just plug the laptop into the inverter and have a unit that I can use for other items as well.

I think Giandel is a quality item even if it is Chinese.

Garry

[nismine01]

Homestar you mentioned having to wreck something to install an earth, I'm just saying these actually have an earthing point on their chassis.

What it will or will not do I can't say, it's certainly not in my field of expertise.

But I'm prepared to take the word of a reputable caravan repairer, something I have not done at this stage but I will as you have brought it up.

My thanks if you have saved our bacon.[smilebigeye]

I've just re read your post and you mention it being as hard wired into a caravan, I'm not sure how my setup affects it but it is wired to an outlet fitted below the input fixtures, I run a short cable from the outlet to the inlet when stopping if I think we are going to use 240. Maybe this is not a safe way of doing it but it seemed practical for me. I cannot hook up to 240 and the inverter at the same time, they are isolated.



Cheers

Mike

[Homestar]

Not wreck anything - and nothing to do with the external earth point on the inverter. The neutral of the inverter must be earthed - most that are just designed to plug something into don't have this aren't designed to have this done. You just need to ensure that if installing an inverter in a caravan as a fixed item running back to the vans distribution board, it must be able to have its neutral earthed.

[DeanoH]

................................. There is always ebay's dispute process if it fails to meet expectations i suppose.

Thanks
Rory

eBays dispute process is only useful if you're alive to tell the tale. Homestars analysis of the situation is pretty spot on. Australia has a Mains Earth Neutral System which basically means one side of the 240 volt grid supply is earthed. This is a major safety component of 240v distribution. Quality inverter/chargers such as Victron extend this protection to the consumer when connected to the mains and re create it when battery powered. A bit difficult to explain but the short story is if you want a decent, reliable and SAFE 240v inverter buy a quality inverter such as Victron. :)



Deano :)

[Old Farang]

Mains Earth Neutral System
Hmm, as far as I know the MEN system means "Multiple Earthed Neutral". The Multiple being the very reason for it.

[Homestar]

Not multiple - Only 1 MEN connection allowed in an installation to prevent paralleling neutral current down the earth...

[Old Farang]

Not multiple - Only 1 MEN connection allowed in an installation to prevent paralleling neutral current down the earth...
Yes, as may be, but the multiple comes from the fact that ALL the neutrals on the load side of a mains distribution transformer, including the transformer star point, are connected to ground.

[Homestar]

Yes, but it's called a mains earth neutral in the Reg book now. Multiple earthed neutral as a term was dropped in the last Reg book or even the one before.

[Milton477]

Thanks for all of the replies, just the sort of information that is really useful.

Just to be clear, this is not going to be a permanent installation. The regular caravan power cable will need to be plugged into the inverter & then the caravan just as with shore power.

Also, I am well aware that sticking your fingers in the plug when on inverter or generator power will result in an electric shock & possible death. The standard RCD or earth leakage will not protect you. To be protected in this situation one would need an RVD I believe it is called. I will explore this option, Drivesafe, are you still involved with these new devices?

Thanks again.
Rory.

[Old Farang]

Yes, but it's called a mains earth neutral in the Reg book now. Multiple earthed neutral as a term was dropped in the last Reg book or even the one before.
Fair enough! My contractors licence expired years ago, along with SAA rules book it seems! Nothing sacred anymore!

[DeanoH]

........................... Just to be clear, this is not going to be a permanent installation. The regular caravan power cable will need to be plugged into the inverter & then the caravan just as with shore power ........................


Rory.

Another VERY good reason to use an inverter/charger such as the Victron that will extend the supply MEN system through to the caravan distribution and re create it (when configured correctly) when the inverter supplys the load :)

Deano :)

ps. I understand how this all may sound a bit 'anal' to the uninitiated but it is really very important for a SAFE 240v electrical distribution system.

pps. Old Farang ............. I did my 'training' back in the 1970's and it was called Mains Earth Neutral System back then :o, either that or ........................................:confused: :confused: :) :)

[drivesafe]

The standard RCD or earth leakage will not protect you. To be protected in this situation one would need an RVD I believe it is called. I will explore this option, Drivesafe, are you still involved with these new devices?

Thanks again.
Rory.
Hi Rory and yes, but here is a link that will better cover how RVDs work.

Residual Voltage Technology | Generators, Inverters, RVD-SAFE(R) Power Leads, RCD, RVD, Electrical Earth, Earthing, Electrical Safety, Wet Environments (https://www.rvdsafe.com.au)

[Old Farang]

Another VERY good reason to use an inverter/charger such as the Victron that will extend the supply MEN system through to the caravan distribution and re create it (when configured correctly) when the inverter supplys the load :)

Deano :)

ps. I understand how this all may sound a bit 'anal' to the uninitiated but it is really very important for a SAFE 240v electrical distribution system.

pps. Old Farang ............. I did my 'training' back in the 1970's and it was called Mains Earth Neutral System back then :o, either that or ........................................:confused: :confused: :) :)
Well, I started a 5 year apprenticeship in 1960, but I was contracting in the late 1970s (in WA), and we called it Multiple Earthed Neutral in those days. :twobeers:

[Homestar]

Thanks for all of the replies, just the sort of information that is really useful.

Just to be clear, this is not going to be a permanent installation. The regular caravan power cable will need to be plugged into the inverter & then the caravan just as with shore power.

Also, I am well aware that sticking your fingers in the plug when on inverter or generator power will result in an electric shock & possible death. The standard RCD or earth leakage will not protect you. To be protected in this situation one would need an RVD I believe it is called. I will explore this option, Drivesafe, are you still involved with these new devices?

Thanks again.
Rory.

That's the same as installing it permanently - if there's no reference to earth for the neutral conductor you are not protected in certain situations. Ensure the inverter you are looking at is suitable for this - most aren't.

[Milton477]

So to be safe I need a RVD-Safe costing $190. Still cheaper than a Victron inverter charger but just as safe & this will also offer protection when on generator power. Bonus!

I appreciate the safety concerns shown in this thread.

[nismine01]

Your input on this matter has certainly highlighted the safety aspect re inverters being fitted into caravans and the like.

I meant no disrespect with my posts but made claims from where I was in the scheme of things.

I would still go with the Giandel inverter but ensure it was fitted professionally rather than my simple way.

I think you have supplied members a good deal of valuable information in your posts, thank you.

Regards

Mike

[drivesafe]

Hi Mike and a word of caution. To get any electrical ( 240vac ) work done on a caravan can be very dangerous unless you find an electrician who knows the regs regarding Transportable wiring.

If you have any problems finding a suitable electrician, contact me and I will see if I can put you in touch with someone in your area.

[Homestar]

So to be safe I need a RVD-Safe costing $190. Still cheaper than a Victron inverter charger but just as safe & this will also offer protection when on generator power. Bonus!

I appreciate the safety concerns shown in this thread.

Yes, that's a good idea.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

so,, how does this work when the generator is plugged into the HOME,,,
does the earth leakage still take care of "lightbulbs in bathtubs"?
or do we now need a RVD?

[Milton477]

The way I understand it is when on portable generator at home/caravan, keep the lights out of the bathtub unless you have a RVD in parallel with your earth leakage. With a portable generator there is no reference to earth hence why an earth leakage will not protect you. An RVD has a different method of protecting people from electrocution & is a fairly new protection device.
I'm not an expert though & not qualified to give advice here.

[Homestar]

so,, how does this work when the generator is plugged into the HOME,,,
does the earth leakage still take care of "lightbulbs in bathtubs"?
or do we now need a RVD?

When a genset is wired into a house, the MEN link is still present in the main switchboard, so the generator acts the same as the normal incoming mains and an RCD will trip just the same.

When we send a genset out at work for hire, it will always have an MEN connection in it so if it is being used in a stand alone setting (about 90% are used like this) then downstream RCD's will always work - which is what I was trying to get across about the inverters - If you buy one that is capable of having the neutral leg tied to earth, then it will function like a normal mains supply and standard RCDs will work. This is how I have my van set up and the RCDs do indeed work when my inverter is being used (which is actually right now as I'm camping this weekend and sitting in the van having lunch watching a DVD as it's not very nice outside at the moment :) )

If a genset is hired to be connected to an existing building to run it, the nstalling Electrician would have to remove the MEN in the genset so only one is present in the system.

Cheaper Inverters that can't have this done to them create the issue of an RCD not working and in this case, an RVD will be required as it provides protection based on what the voltage of each conductor is doing, not the current.

Most don't understand this so think any off the shelf inverter will work and that they are still protected by the RCD in the van - which isn't the case.

[Tombie]

On site, all Gensets have a ground stake driven and it becomes the tie in for portable buildings.

[Homestar]

On site, all Gensets have a ground stake driven and it becomes the tie in for portable buildings.

Yes but dependent on application. Gensets that have an MEN fitted are not required to have an earth stake and the regs say 'is not required nor recommended' but local inspectors and site requirements may add one but all fault currents will return to the star point of the alternator.

Driving an earth stake in this situation can in fact increase fault levels if one occurred and cause slower tripping of the main breaker or cause the genset to be unable to supply enough fault current to trip the breaker in a worst case scenario.

[drivesafe]

Hi folks and first off, until I got involved with RVDs I had no idea that RCDs had so many limitations and short falls.


I am NOT an electrician so I was not aware of how RCDs worked, beyond the basics, but more importantly, how they didn’t work. Their biggest drawback is that in many wet situations, they do not function as expected and in many cases, they just don’t work at all.

RVDs correct this problem.


Another drawback and again, something I was not aware of, is that RCDs will only give full protection for just one single Class 1 appliance, and for every additional Class 1 appliance connected to the same circuit, you get a proportional reduction in protection.


Put another way. You get full protection when only Class 1 appliance is connected to an RCD, If a second Class 1 appliance is connected to the same RCD, then you halve the RCD’s ability to protect that circuit. Add a 3rd Class 1 appliance and the RCD’s ability to protect this circuit is now down to one third of it’s intended protect.


Whereas with an RVD added to the RCD and you now could have one hundred Class 1 appliances connected to the one RCD and because the RVD is in the circuit, all one hundred appliances are FULLY PROTECTED at all times.


Now to inverters and how to set them up.


First thing, and this needs to be done by a competent electrician, the MEM link needs to be REMOVED, then an RVD-EI, mounted on a suitably sized RCD, is connected to the output of the inverter.


Again, this is a job for a competent electrician, not a job for a home handyman!


By installing an RVD in this manor on an inverter or generator, they then become a floating circuit and L1 and L2 are fully protected.

[Homestar]

Sorry Drivesafe but ALL electrical installations SHALL - by law - have an MEN link fitted. Caravan installations are not exempt from this. When a new van is built here in Vic it requires a Certificate of Electrical Safety - which involves checking the MEN link is in place on the isolated supply side (not the mains connection side) amongst other things when an inverter and changeover switch for a genset is fitted.

RVD's are an important safety feature depending on the installation yes but they cannot replace or override Australian Standards.

As an Electrician myself that advises a National company and its customers there Electricians and Inspectors about the correct installation of generators in a multitude of applications, I cannot advise this under any circumstances.

If you read the latest release of AS3010 you'll see there is a huge amount of info on how isolated electrical systems should be wired and all of them include an MEN.

And your summation of how RCD's work is also incorrect. They act on a balanced circuit so as soon as it sees a difference of 30mA in any part of the downstream circuit between active and neutral they will trip regardless of how many appliances are connected. We can have over 100 appliances running on a circuit at an event and one slightly dodgy appliance will still trip the RCD and testing these circuits shows they are all protected.

[drivesafe]

Hi Homestar, and the RVD-EI is approved in Australia under the existing standards, for use with inverters and generators, as I posted.


RVD-EIs have been approved for the last 5 years, but, MEM use is now being questioned because of safety reasons, where having an MEM in some inverters can allow 240vac to connect to 12 batteries in certain fault conditions, and this is one of the reasons why AS3017, which was out earlier this year, is now being held over while the standards are being examined.

This has nothing to do with RVD use, but removing the MEM to make an inverter safe against 240vac getting into the 12v system makes RCDs useless unless an RVD is installed with the RCD.


BTW, when an RVD-EMR is installed in a caravan in Victoria, you no longer need to fit double pole switches and power points. Victoria is the first state to introduce this.

As I pointed out, I am not an electrician but I need to keep up with what is happening and I do this by keeping in touch with those working in this area.

[Homestar]

Not saying RVD's are a bad idea - far from it. You'll get no argument from me there - they provide a level of protection above RCD's - that's not in question.

My problem is removing the MEN link - this illegal under current Australian standards - including the brand new AS3010. The new version of 3000 will be out in the new year but I would be surprised if it goes against another standard that's just been released. Our company sits on the standards committee for 3010 but not 3000 so I've only seen the draft.

I see where you're coming from - but until the standards say you can or can't do something - as a qualified Electrician with 20 years full time doing isolated power supplies, I can't endorse the kind of system you are describing in its entirety.

Yes, get an RVD fitted when you get an inverter fitted - no argument there. [emoji106]

[drivesafe]

Hi again Homestar and I think the problem is that I am not explaining their use properly, and I will leave it at that.


But they are being installed in new ambulances and fire trucks. QR has been using them in the work trucks for a few years now and they are being used in special services police vehicles in NSW, to name just a few areas where they are in use and where they have to meet the standards.

[Milton477]

Interesting discussion guys, thanks.

I will be fitting a RVD-EI with a 15A RCD to the output of my inverter. As I am not installing a changeover switch, it will require the normal caravan power lead to connect from the inverter output to the normal caravan mains input (KISS principle, can't plug more than 1 plug in at a time). This way will prevent accidental connection of shore & inverter power simultaneously.

[Homestar]

Interesting discussion guys, thanks.

I will be fitting a RVD-EI with a 15A RCD to the output of my inverter. As I am not installing a changeover switch, it will require the normal caravan power lead to connect from the inverter output to the normal caravan mains input (KISS principle, can't plug more than 1 plug in at a time). This way will prevent accidental connection of shore & inverter power simultaneously.

That's a good way to go.

[drivesafe]

Interesting discussion guys, thanks.

I will be fitting a RVD-EI with a 15A RCD to the output of my inverter.
Hi Milton I have an RVDSAFE Lead, the RVD-EI 10/15 Lead, because I use both inverters and a large generator during blackouts.


The EI lead allows me to power off either of the inverters during the night and power off the generator during the day, while it is recharging my batteries.

My setup allows me to change inverters and if I ever need to change my generator, I can do so without the need to reinstall RVDs in new equipment.

[Milton477]

Thanks drivesafe, that makes a lot of sense. It is much less work & more flexible than permanently installing the RVD's. A battery upgrade to LifePo4 is not cheap as I am discovering.

[Tombie]

No indeed. Works out between $1.50 and $2.00 per Ah...

[Milton477]

.........$6.80/ah for just the batteries. + $261.00 for the Intervolt Relay + ..........

[drivesafe]

Hi Milton, if you place an order with RVDSAFE, for your RVD gear, have a chat with them about Sterling Lithium battery charging gear.

This might save you a lot of time and money.

[Milton477]

Thanks drivesafe I will.
Before I make up my mind about an AC charger, I need to modify the charge algorithm on my Victron Solar Controller to suit. I am hoping that between the 400w of solar & the D4 alternator when mobile, I will have enough to keep the batteries topped up.

[Tombie]

.........$6.80/ah for just the batteries. + $261.00 for the Intervolt Relay + ..........

How???

Enerdrive batteries are $1700 per 125ah

[Milton477]

4 x $288 = $1152 for 180Ah = $6.4/Ah. I am fitting 2 batteries in parallel to have 360Ah.

After a chat with the supplier, I'm not fitting any cell balancing at this stage, just a low voltage cut off (Intervolt relay). I'll manually keep an eye on the cell voltages for now. Hobby King used to sell a 6 way multi voltage meter with alarm output which is something I will consider down the track if needed to monitor voltages automatically.

KISS principle here for now. If it needs to get more complicated then that is what will happen. There is so much to read & opinions/experiences vary enormously so it is hard to tell exactly what will work reliably & properly.

It would be really nice to fit a ready made Victron 12V LifePo4 battery with integrated bluetooth monitoring but I built the van from scratch so I may as well continue the strategy. More fun.

131877

[bee utey]

I'm currently considering rebuilding a 48V 20Ah e-bike battery into a 12V configuration. I found some 12V 100A BMS boards on ebay that will be used to keep the rewired cells happy. Under $10 for a board, delivered from China. Not sure if they would be able to be used on bigger cells.

[Milton477]

I'm currently considering rebuilding a 48V 20Ah e-bike battery into a 12V configuration. I found some 12V 100A BMS boards on ebay that will be used to keep the rewired cells happy. Under $10 for a board, delivered from China. Not sure if they would be able to be used on bigger cells.

Thanks bee utey. Were those cell balancing boards? I have seen them for around that price where you have 1 per cell & then interconnect/daisy chain the boards & they do their thing.

[bee utey]

Thanks bee utey. Were those cell balancing boards? I have seen them for around that price where you have 1 per cell & then interconnect/daisy chain the boards & they do their thing.

I just searched for "12V BMS" and these came up:


4S 100A 12V w/ Balance LiFePo4 LiFe 18650 Battery Cell BMS Protection Board PCB | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4S-100A-12V-w-Balance-LiFePo4-LiFe-18650-Battery-Cell-BMS-Protection-Board-PCB/282422018100'ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649)

[Roadrunner230]

But is it SAFE! That's the point I'm trying to make - cheap inverters usually aren't designed to be permanently installed in vans like this.

No good being in front if your dead...

Also, nothing like a good camping weekend being ruined when the inverter dies on the first night your away.

Again, not saying these aren't safe, just trying to get across the safety aspects here - I work with isolated power supplies for a living is all, without knowing the electrical details of the unit I wouldn't be making it a part of a fixed wiring installation.

I've said enough - you'll either check into this or not give a **** and blindly but one - no skin off my back, but the OP asked for advice and I offered some.

What you choose to do with it is your concern.

Chinese versus other countries has been done to death - some of it's good, some of it's ****, working out the difference can be the hard bit but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Oh, and an RCD won't save you if the inverter isn't right for the application and fails either, but I'm not going into fault paths here and what an RCD is and isn't good for if you don't understand the basics.

You're call...

have been using one of these for 2 years now and its great. had a problem with the first one but they replaced it and now have had no problems.
I

[Milton477]

Going to need a bigger van to accommodate the inverter. That's a 40l Engel that the inverter is sitting on.

131980

[trout1105]

How much that big bugger weigh?
I thought that my 2kva unit was a monster but that is huge.

[Milton477]

Easily 5 kg. Lots of space for the electronics to stay cool me thinks.

[Milton477]

A question for the boffs:
The inverter manual recommends bonding the inverter to earth (van chassis) via the earth stud on the case. Should I?
The earth pin on the socket is connected to the inverter case.

[Homestar]

A question for the boffs:
The inverter manual recommends bonding the inverter to earth (van chassis) via the earth stud on the case. Should I?
The earth pin on the socket is connected to the inverter case.

Yes.

[Milton477]

Thanks Homestar.

[Homestar]

No probs - do that and run the RVD lead and you'll be fine. Should work out well for you. [emoji106][emoji4]

[drivesafe]

A question for the boffs:
The inverter manual recommends bonding the inverter to earth (van chassis) via the earth stud on the case. Should I?
The earth pin on the socket is connected to the inverter case.
Hi again Milton, and if you are considering purchasing an RVD lead, don’t do anything to your inverter until you discuss it with the manufacturer of the RVDs.

This will probably save from doing the work twice.

[Milton477]

Thanks drivesafe I will.

Before I finalise the install, I connected the new CALB LifePo4 batteries to the inverter & plugged the van's power lead onto the inverter.

First I tested the microwave, no problem. The lights in the van didn't even dim briefly when the microwave started. Then I ran the aircon for 20 minutes. The cables supplied with the inverter got up to 40 deg so I will use my own 25mm2 instead. The inverter itself stayed cold.

A couple of pictures of the numbers after 20 min with aircon running.

Inverter output in kW.
132033

Battery amps.
132034

Battery volts.
132035

So far so good & that is with only 1 of the 2 batteries. Love the lithiums already.

[Milton477]

Going to need a bigger van to accommodate the inverter. That's a 40l Engel that the inverter is sitting on.

131980

Well it let the smoke out/expired/blew up today. 18 months of intermittent use later, while powering the aircon, Giandel saw fit to smoke the two 125A fuses on the outputs of the 2 LifePo4 battery banks & fill the van with unpleasant smelling electrical smells.

The question is now: Another Giandel at $320 or a Victron at $1500?

[AK83]

First of all .. interesting thread .. learned a lot from it.

Second .. my thoughts are; get another Giandel, and learn what happens to them when they let the smoke out!
I'm neither an electrician, nor an electronics person at all .. just an 'interested type'.
That is, I've always had the mindset that when something breaks, rather than just replace it, figure out why?(where practical).

Recently got myself a benchtop power supply to play with once again(had one before but 'lost it') .. anyhow, started charging up stuff with it, turned it up to see what it'd do, and it 'popped'
Contacted seller on ebay, and very weirdly they sent me another .. no questions asked! [thumbsupbig]. Didn't even ask for me to return the one I popped.
So when the new one came, first things first was to not pop the new one too .. so opened it up and took some measurements.
Anyhow, found out that the rectifier was damaged. Unsoldered it off the old one, also got a couple of MOSFETs too, as they were all on the hard to access heatshink, put together and nothing.
Inspected more bits, too more measurements and worked out that more MOSFETs were dead, one of them actually the 'popped' one. No smoke, just a snapped mosfet on the output voltage side.
The hard part was just accessing these items on the PCB that are attached to the heatsinks.
Anyhow, attempt No 2, replaced all four fets, and rectifier again, and now the dead supply is also working too.

Technically it did cost me more than about $20 to fix it all up(each part cost about $4 or so), but that additional cost was due to me buying packs of the required bits, not just singular.

Bonus! I Now have two 30v 30a power supplies for less than $200.
more importantly, if one or the other ever pops again, I'm armed with enough experience to fix it again.

The above point is that while you may have no idea of electrical and electronics, they aren't as hard to 'figure out', as they may initially seem.
Now I'm not referring to designing and building these items .. just fault finding and tracing and replacing the broken part!

The point of this? when something goers wrong, you fix it yourself, and you have a better understanding of what actually goes wrong.
Obviously I couldn't tell you what got smoked in your Giandel inverter, but there's a high degree of likelyhood that it's going to be a simple didode in the rectifier group.
(from what I've seen)Many of these cheap inverters seem to run multiple diodes as a rectifier instead of a single chip design. That doesn't mean that this IS what happened, just a very high probability of what could have.
If it has, then a simple $1 part could be the issue .. and you may not need to spend to much to sort it.
Tools needed to fix aren't expensive either.

[Milton477]

You have made some interesting points Arthur. I never considered approaching the seller to see what they would do. Will definitely open the inverter & look for the damaged components & see if I can replace them. This might also be the result of vibration from the dirt roads we have traveled lately. Will report back.

[drivesafe]

The question is now: Another Giandel at $320 or a Victron at $1500?


Based on the output versus price is will be just like any other cheap Chinese inverter - it should work fine for as long as it works.

I think the question is answered, UNFORTUNATELY!

[AK83]

If you do open, be sure to post some general pics(ie. wider area) and if you can, get closer up to the 'diode pack' area.
Also look for at least one fuse close to the input side of the PCB .. it could be soldered on, could be replaceable ???

[101RRS]

Well Milton the old one lasted a long time, you can buy nearly 5 of them for the expensive one so i would buy two of the cheapies and I think overall you will still be way ahead - however I suspect you A/C has been overloading the converter and that has what as let the green steam out - get a bigger inverter.

Likewise who is to say the Victron would have lasted.

My Giandel is still running well after many years.

[Homestar]

Just a word of caution is dismantling to inspect and possibly repair - Inverters produce lethal voltages and SHOULD NEVER have repairs attempted by inexperienced persons - there is a lot in them that WILL KILL YOU if you are not careful.

There are plenty of extra low voltage electronics that are perfectly safe to learn on - inverters ARE NOT ONE OF THEM.

Please if you don't understand them, or electronics in some way shape or form and have appropriate test equipment - NOT a $20 ebay multimeter - do yourself a favour and let it go to God gracefully or have someone else look at it. Please don't start (and potentially end) your electronics hobby on one of these.

Sorry for the dire warnings but I have seen someone seriously injure themselves doing exactly this - even after I said I'd look at it for them, they couldn't help themselves and earned a trip to Hospital for their efforts - it could have been a lot worse.

Oh, and personally I wouldn't buy another one of those if it lasted 18 months, but that's just me. My secondhand Selectronic Inverter is over 20 years old now and still going strong - you can't buy them new any more, but they come up secondhand quite often. Not the lightest, smallest or cheapest, but designed and made right here in Australia and are the ducks guts IMO. If you have the budget, the Victron unit should last a lifetime too.

These are the units to keep an eye out for in the size you need - SA31 and SA41 Inverters (http://www.selectronic.com.au/inverter/sa31sa41.html) - I've seen them secondhand for around $1300 when they surface, but you need to keep your eyes peeled. Pity they aren't still made - they start and run a decent AC system with ease and the fan only kicks in once they are running at more than around 50% load continuously so most of the time much quieter (silent) than other units. The 600 watt version comes up quite often as they were used in NSW Ambulances for years, so there are plenty more of those on the market and make great camping inverters as they'll peak at 1300 watts for 5 minutes, so can run a microwave, etc to reheat things. The 600 watt version is what I have. The also have a sleep mode so draw no power when not being used unlike many that actually draw quite a bit sitting there in standby mode.

[drivesafe]

Hi Milton, I regularly deal with a company that sells a range of inverters, including a 3,000W unit and if you are still looking for one, they can supply their 3,000w inverter for $1299.


The inverter is an AMPS brand, it has a 3,600w overload protection, comes fitted with an RVD, a 3 year warranty and the price includes delivery.


The company is RV Powerstream and you can contact Ian on 0427 648 726 and tell them you are off the AULRO forum.

[Milton477]

My van is my site base when working away so I spend around 120 days per year in it. The cheapie inverter has proved it's worth this summer as I run the aircon while we travel between sites so that when we stop & are unpowered, the aircon doesn't murder the batteries as the van is already cool.

Time for a Victron Multiplus Inverter Charger. MultiPlus - Victron Energy (https://www.victronenergy.com/inverters-chargers/multiplus-12v-24v-48v-800va-3kva)

I especially like the feature where it can combine a generator with batteries if the generator cannot supply enough power on its own. I should be able to downsize my generator to a 1000VA & a much quieter model.

[Geedublya]

Just a word of caution is dismantling to inspect and possibly repair - Inverters produce lethal voltages and SHOULD NEVER have repairs attempted by inexperienced persons - there is a lot in them that WILL KILL YOU if you are not careful.

There are plenty of extra low voltage electronics that are perfectly safe to learn on - inverters ARE NOT ONE OF THEM.

Please if you don't understand them, or electronics in some way shape or form and have appropriate test equipment - NOT a $20 ebay multimeter - do yourself a favour and let it go to God gracefully or have someone else look at it. Please don't start (and potentially end) your electronics hobby on one of these.

Sorry for the dire warnings but I have seen someone seriously injure themselves doing exactly this - even after I said I'd look at it for them, they couldn't help themselves and earned a trip to Hospital for their efforts - it could have been a lot worse.

Oh, and personally I wouldn't buy another one of those if it lasted 18 months, but that's just me. My secondhand Selectronic Inverter is over 20 years old now and still going strong - you can't buy them new any more, but they come up secondhand quite often. Not the lightest, smallest or cheapest, but designed and made right here in Australia and are the ducks guts IMO. If you have the budget, the Victron unit should last a lifetime too.

These are the units to keep an eye out for in the size you need - SA31 and SA41 Inverters (http://www.selectronic.com.au/inverter/sa31sa41.html) - I've seen them secondhand for around $1300 when they surface, but you need to keep your eyes peeled. Pity they aren't still made - they start and run a decent AC system with ease and the fan only kicks in once they are running at more than around 50% load continuously so most of the time much quieter (silent) than other units. The 600 watt version comes up quite often as they were used in NSW Ambulances for years, so there are plenty more of those on the market and make great camping inverters as they'll peak at 1300 watts for 5 minutes, so can run a microwave, etc to reheat things. The 600 watt version is what I have. The also have a sleep mode so draw no power when not being used unlike many that actually draw quite a bit sitting there in standby mode.

Just to add to Homestars post. Inverters aren’t a simple rectifier power supply and are a lot more like a switchmode. Fixing them requires experience unless it is something very simple and obvious.

[Milton477]

Just to add to Homestars post. Inverters aren’t a simple rectifier power supply and are a lot more like a switchmode. Fixing them requires experience unless it is something very simple and obvious.

Thanks for the warnings guys. I have taken your advice & not repaired the inverter but I couldn't resist a look to see what failed.
The inverter was mounted on the van wall above the wheel, cushioned by air suspension. Still, a little circuit board which joined the main board at 90 deg has snapped off & 2 capacitors have blown spectacularly. That is what I can see. In hindsight, if the inverter was mounted flat, this probably would not have happened.

149954

So out with the 5kg cheap stuff, it has served its purpose & in with 18kg Victron Multiplus:

149955

Where has this thing been all this time? It is not only an inverter but a 120A battery charger & UPS if you like. Swaps seamlessly between mains & batteries without any 240V stuff noticing. It can combine mains power/generator power with battery power to allow bigger loads to be run for short periods off a small generator for example. Plus, I can see what is happening via bluetooth on my phone & the entire system is configurable by laptop.