Sway Bars

[ntguy]

My Defender is a 200tdi. However it is a late one. On the rear and front i think is mounts for sway bars. On diff and chassis.

Is there any advantage in using them?

[Red90]

They reduce sway and they reduce articulation.

[clive22]

If you're doing heavy laden desert trips with lots of high speed highway - install;l them

If you're looking for an pure or mainly off road truck on uneven track with low speed work take them off.

There are many threads on this topic


Clive

[Red90]

If you want both you can get the ones with disconnects on them.

[MLD]

Some would argue to fit them to the rear and not to the front. That set up restricts flex in the rear to match the front making for a more balanced 4wd off-road. That assumes you stick with the factory geometry set up (i.e. the OEM shock length). If you mess with the factory geometry it can lead to inverted sway bars.

[weeds]

I didn’t have a sway bar on the tdi and had nothing to compare against. My TD5 has one on the rear, I run stand suspension on the front and air springs on the rear......I think a swag bar has its place for a tourer.

[timax]

My td5 dosnt have them.
Its just a tourer and i dont feel that i really need them.
If i had a car with them though id wouldnt remove them.

[donh54]

My D1 has a 50mm lift, and the standard sway bars used to invert themselves all the time. Added 50mm spacers and problem solvered.
The ride difference with it loaded for touring is huge! I wouldn't be without them.

[rammypluge]

Some would argue to fit them to the rear and not to the front. That set up restricts flex in the rear to match the front making for a more balanced 4wd off-road. That assumes you stick with the factory geometry set up (i.e. the OEM shock length). If you mess with the factory geometry it can lead to inverted sway bars.Unless a car is designed from the factory to not have a front bar and have a rear bar, and i cant think of one like that, its generally considered unsafe because it generally promotes oversteer.

[Vern]

If you want both you can get the ones with disconnects on them.For a small fortune![emoji4]

[rijidij]

Unless a car is designed from the factory to not have a front bar and have a rear bar, and i cant think of one like that, its generally considered unsafe because it generally promotes oversteer.

110 County’s came out with rear sway bar only. I’ve always left mine on because I do more touring than hardcore off roading. Also, front and rear diff locks compensate somewhat for the minor reduction in rear articulation when we do hit a rough track.

[JDNSW]

Unless a car is designed from the factory to not have a front bar and have a rear bar, and i cant think of one like that, its generally considered unsafe because it generally promotes oversteer.

My County* (and , I suspect all others) came that way from the factory.

*This term used here correctly to refer to pre-Defender coil sprung Landrover 110s. The County trim gave you carpets, a clock, cloth trim on the seats, a rear sway bar, self levelling rear suspension via a Boge strut, rear window washer, wiper and demister, and probably a few other bits and pieces I can't think of at the moment.

[ntguy]

Thanks all.

Mine has the mounts, but never been fitted from the Factory.

Will do more research on them. I do a lot of highway and outback roads. Not much fire tracks etc etc around mine way.

I have just done about 8k kms, a lot of desert work, great central road etc etc.

Might just go for one in the rear.

[rammypluge]

My County* (and , I suspect all others) came that way from the factory.

*This term used here correctly to refer to pre-Defender coil sprung Landrover 110s. The County trim gave you carpets, a clock, cloth trim on the seats, a rear sway bar, self levelling rear suspension via a Boge strut, rear window washer, wiper and demister, and probably a few other bits and pieces I can't think of at the moment.Okay. I didnt know that! Our family had a V8 110 county for a while, maybe thats part of the reason why it didnt flex anywhere near as well as the 2 door rangy. I really didnt think ours had a boge self levelling strut either? It was around a 1987 model i think.

[MLD]

Unless a car is designed from the factory to not have a front bar and have a rear bar, and i cant think of one like that, its generally considered unsafe because it generally promotes oversteer.

understeer, oversteer, vague-steer, suggestive-steer, self-steer - My Defender has all those traits.

There doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to sway bays on the 110 and Defender range. As stated the County came with one on the rear. I had an early generation TD5 (not the extreme) and it didn't come with sway bars. The TD5 extreme of the same vintage did come with sway bays front and rear. AFAIK post 2002 facelift defenders came with sway bars front and rear, same with the Puma. I deduce from that info is LR didn't put much weight on the sway bars as an integral part of its handling dynamics. Most likely its inclusion in later models is more to do with occupant safety laws than original design principles.

[manic]

I personally prefer to run stiffer springs, good shocks and no sway bars.

A soft sprung defender with sway bars is great around town but not safe when loaded up for touring rough roads. I also consider increased articulation 'safer' off road. So no sway bars on my tours.

A D1 I had was running the factory setup, both sway bars, new factory spec springs, new bushes, good shocks and a light/medium touring load, just an awning and shovel on the roof. It fish tailed on a gravel bend and rolled two and a half times. No doubt an inexperienced driver the major contributer but im convinced a more rigid spring set up would have done a much better job of keeping it level and the sway bars in this case only helped to lift the wheels off the ground whilst he wrestled for control.

So a spring rate that can handle the load on rough roads is way more important than sway bars IME

Early D1 200tdis came without sway bars. When they added sway bars they softened the springs. I think that was to increase ride comfort whilst maintaining similar levels of stability.

[Red90]

For a small fortune![emoji4]

Make your own if you are cheap. It is not rocket science.

[Andrew86]

Living in the city with a Defender I can only imagine the adventures to be had by removing the front and rear anti-roll bars. A skipper's ticket would be essential.

Just to be different (and I'm sure I'll cop it for this) has anyone gone down the path of upgrading their anti-roll bars to improve on-road handling further? Twisted do a nice progressive suspension kit.

Twisted Progressive Suspension - Twisted Automotive (http://twistedautomotive.com/store/twisted-progressive-suspension/)

[manic]

Living in the city with a Defender I can only imagine the adventures to be had by removing the front and rear anti-roll bars. A skipper's ticket would be essential.

Just to be different (and I'm sure I'll cop it for this) has anyone gone down the path of upgrading their anti-roll bars to improve on-road handling further? Twisted do a nice progressive suspension kit.

Twisted Progressive Suspension - Twisted Automotive (http://twistedautomotive.com/store/twisted-progressive-suspension/)

If your looking to go around bends with less sway I wouldnt look at upgrading the roll bars. I would get stiffer, perhaps shorter springs. My 90 completly stripped of added weight sits near enough flat through the bends on a HD +2inch lift. There isnt enough sway in it for sway bars to make any difference when driving around town. The forces through most bends (unless driving like an absolute lunatic, or round a race track) wont compress the springs enough. Its a harsh ride given a few bumps, but good for a laugh every now and then!

[Andrew86]

the forces through most bends (unless driving like an absolute lunatic, or round a race track) wont compress the springs enough. Its a harsh ride given a few bumps, but good for a laugh every now and then!

Yeah a stiffer ride is out of the question. I think progressive springs that soften up the ride combined with upgraded anti-sway bars would be a good way to keep the Mrs happy and stay on top of my growing fear of speed bumps.

[strangy]

From my experience in addition to the mentioned fitment variations from factory.
Re: articulation reduction with swaybars.
IMO Perspective needs to be had here.
Any concerns about reduced articulation should be considered against any suspension mods and serious regular low range work. Ive watched some spend poorly on suspension choice and remove swaybars only to achieve the same level of articulation as the original suspension with swaybars. But it looked cool a few inches taller.

For the most part IMO 95% of 4wd in any make would be lucky to see more than 100km of genuine low range and max articulation in their lifetime and for most folks, concerns about articulation loss are typically never realised, however, some owners feel more confident by having removed swaybars or fitting disconnects according to their planned use.
So as already mentioned unless hard core all the time (which isnt typical for even remote travel around the country) sway bar removal or disconnects isnt worthwhile for most vehicles.

Since the question was asked about fitting swaybars.
Most important, as already mentioned, make sure shocks and springs are suited for intended main purpose and in good condition as the first priority.
If you still arent happy then fit the bars.
If at all worried about articulation leave them off.
At the end of the day its always a compromise if you want the vehicle to perform brilliantly on either end of the spectrum.

[rammypluge]

Sway bars are active almost all of the time, increasing the stiffness and harshness of the ride. The only comfort benefit to be had from them is when the wheels on both sides of the vehicle strike a bump or hollow of the same magnitude and duration, at the same time, for example, when hitting a speed bump or spoon drain dead on.

[rammypluge]

At the end of the day the best thing for most offroaders who do both on road and off road is to have mild thickness swaybars, with or without disconnects.

The absence of swaybars typically requires springs that are too stiff in double bump, and thick swaybars typically create too many discomfort and lack of flex issues.

[Vern]

Make your own if you are cheap. It is not rocket science.Got any plans?
I did make my own disconnects from ideas off the interweb, lost them both within 15min of driving.
Same as this pic except thicker washer and welded on, guessing the cotter pin snapped.
Oh and i'm not cheap, just can't justify $2000 for sway barshttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/1092.jpg

[martnH]

The function sway bar is to reduce body roll but also it can be used to tune steering.

MY puma defender comes with both front and rear sway bar. The front sway bar is significantly stronger than the rear. These produces understeering.I removed both sway bars and the under steer gets a bit better....

As mentioned away bar is to reduce body roll but the cons is that it connects both wheels. When driving on gravel road with potholes, the sway bar will transmit the hit on one wheel to the other and produce a bit of a waddling movement like a crab/penguin, which is very scary at high speed...
I remove both away bars and now I can drive over potoles at high speed comfortably.......(probably at around 80km/h

Yes an affordable sway bar disconnect would be nice
Cheers

[martnH]

Just to add, if both wheels will hit sped bump/pothole, the sway bar won't produce the waddling effect but only when one wheel hit bump/pothole. Because the sway bar will in effect compress one spring

[rammypluge]

If you drive like an old lady you have the option of soft coils and stiffer swaybars, because you are less likely to bottom the suspension.

If you drive hard over undulating terrain you need firmer coils to prevent bottoming, and because of the stiffer coils can run softer swaybars.

[uninformed]

What’s wrong with some body roll? I never had a problem with my stock 82 RRC

[rammypluge]

What’s wrong with some body roll? I never had a problem with my stock 82 RRCRange Rover Classic rollover - YouTube (https://youtu.be/nUM2r0Mmj8Q)

[manic]

Range Rover Classic rollover - YouTube (https://youtu.be/nUM2r0Mmj8Q)Looks like the drivers intention was to roll it for TV, not to avoid the car. He went out wide and then whipped it back masterfully into a roll. Even if that rrc had double HD sway bars he could still roll it with that exact same move. There was so much grip! The sidewalls on those bouncing balloon tyres would have been rolling away from the rim.


I suppose no way to know if the rrc in that vid had sway bars.

It would be interesting to see how much influence tyre profile and pressures would have on this test.

[rammypluge]

Looks like the drivers intention was to roll it for TV, not to avoid the car. He went out wide and then whipped it back masterfully into a roll. Even if that rrc had double HD sway bars he could still roll it with that exact same move. There was so much grip! The sidewalls on those bouncing balloon tyres would have been rolling away from the rim.


I suppose no way to know if the rrc in that vid had sway bars.

It would be interesting to see how much influence tyre profile and pressures would have on this test.Fitting very thick front anti-roll bars is the main trick for avoiding rollovers, plus these days esp settings. Shame that these can create other undesirable and sometimes dangerous qualities.

[manic]

Fitting very thick front anti-roll bars is the main trick for avoiding rollovers, plus these days esp settings. Shame that these can create other undesirable and sometimes dangerous qualities.

Main trick is dont do what that guy done in the video in any car, ever!

Any examples of dangerous ESP interference?

[rammypluge]

Main trick is dont do what that guy done in the video in any car, ever!

Any examples of dangerous ESP interference?Esp slows down the turning process primarily by braking the outer front wheel.

I would rather avoid a truck and then roll over, than hit the truck.

At least one car during evasive testing had such severe esp interference that it temporarily popped the bead on the outside front tyre. Freaky. (Did they avoid the truck?).

I have seen one dashcam vid where a car tries to avoid running into the rear of another car, and just doesnt quite make it, possibly due to esp. It runs up the rear bodywork and tyre of the hatchback in front, which causes it to roll.

I did some repeated handling assessment of my own car around a particular corner (after a suspension tweak). I pushed it harder and harder each time. I found that it started squealing sooner than i expected. A friend then pointed out that the outside front tyre looked to have accelerated and odd wear. I think its likely that esp was the cause.

Esp is not for drivers, for people that have advanced car control skill. You dont appoint two prime ministers, it just creates a very confused and dysfunctional heirarchy of control. In a situation where i am trying to avoid an accident, i want the car to have one master, with a clear plan.

Imagine for example that the car started to skid, but you needed to accelerate to avoid a head on. Esp wont let you do that.

[rammypluge]

Main trick is dont do what that guy done in the video in any car, ever!

Any examples of dangerous ESP interference?Most modern cars will tolerate you doing what that guy did in the video.

[uninformed]

Range Rover Classic rollover - YouTube (https://youtu.be/nUM2r0Mmj8Q)

Following to close, not paying attention etc. Whos pulling into oncoming traffic to avoid a rear end..... Set up for TV

I had my RRC for 3 years and never rolled it, nore my Defender 110 (18 years) both sans sway bars.

I know people dislike body roll. I know people want their vehicles to "handle" better.... But people also Increase the COG and dont drive within the limits of the selected Vehicle. Buy a 4x4 and its a compromise. I personaly dont want sway bars.

[rick130]

FWIW anti-roll bars were an optional extra on some Porsche models in years gone by....

[rammypluge]

Some vehicles are positively dangerous without swaybars, whereas others, particularly those designed to be without them, can be not too bad.

The RRC has a number of factors that help it; the raised rear roll centre, alloy body, good front to rear weight balance unladen due to the light engine and rear overhang, the good suspension geometry and tuning, the boge self levelling strut.

Another thing though is that engines have become a lot more powerful, creating greater torque dynamics, acceleration and top speeds. The RRC suspension may be less suitable with more power than what it had from factory.

The Citroen 2CV is a perfect example of a car that worked with a gutless engine, but due to various design factors including leading arm independent front suspension, it was unsuitable for significant power upgrades.

[rick130]

The rear roll centre should be higher than the front, that way as the car rolls into a corner weight is transferred from the rear to the front helping mitigate understeer.

I've driven a car with a low rear roll centre and it was pretty twitchy on the track, it would swap ends in an instant.
Played with roll centres to a more conventional arrangement, much, much nicer.

With a high CofG we need higher roll centres anyway, it can somewhat mitigate body roll.

That RRC roll over was a deliberate provocation with that last jerk back on the steering wheel.

Most cars don't fall over, they need to trip over something.

I've had Defenders sans any anti-roll bars sliding on dry bitumen at stupid speeds and never been in fear of a roll over, ditto with an old Jeep that had more body roll than an RRC, but the Jeep terrified me off road on any side slope.

Anti-roll bars are weigh transfer devices, they transfer load laterally from an inside wheel across an axle, and diagonal to the opposite corner, which is why they are used to balance a cars handling characteristics in terms of under/oversteer.

Of course a car that doesn't roll as much feels nicer, and in sudden transitions they can make a vehicle more responsive to steering inputs, eg. a swerve situation as the weight transfer period is shortened.

[rammypluge]

The rear roll centre should be higher than the front, that way as the car rolls into a corner weight is transferred from the rear to the front helping mitigate understeer.

I've driven a car with a low rear roll centre and it was pretty twitchy on the track, it would swap ends in an instant.
Played with roll centres to a more conventional arrangement, much, much nicer.

With a high CofG we need higher roll centres anyway, it can somewhat mitigate body roll.

That RRC roll over was a deliberate provocation with that last jerk back on the steering wheel.

Most cars don't fall over, they need to trip over something.

I've had Defenders sans any anti-roll bars sliding on dry bitumen at stupid speeds and never been in fear of a roll over, ditto with an old Jeep that had more body roll than an RRC, but the Jeep terrified me off road on any side slope.

Anti-roll bars are weigh transfer devices, they transfer load laterally from an inside wheel across an axle, and diagonal to the opposite corner, which is why they are used to balance a cars handling characteristics in terms of under/oversteer.

Of course a car that doesn't roll as much feels nicer, and in sudden transitions they can make a vehicle more responsive to steering inputs, eg. a swerve situation as the weight transfer period is shortened.

The RRC driver in the video was presumably trying to stay on the 'road' and also avoid any oncoming traffic. The moose test involves swerving back into ones lane.

Most passenger cars need to be tripped to roll over, but many 4wds are a different story. However, most 4wds on showroom floors with esp would be hard to roll without a trip.

Less body roll reduces the risk of simple harmonic motion, where two or more factors combine and compound to create a rollover.

All that being said, many people are now blindly obsessed with minimal body roll, at the expense of many things, including ride comfort, off road ability and off road safety. Its about striking the right balance, and these days swaybars are typically taken too far.

[rammypluge]

Defender-Elchtest: Wirbel bei den Handlern - auto motor und sport (https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/defender-elchtest-wirbel-bei-den-haendlern-731019.html)

[manic]

The RRC driver in the video was presumably trying to stay on the 'road' and also avoid any oncoming traffic. The moose test involves swerving back into ones lane.
.

That was not a moose test, he was certainly trying to roll it for TV. Watch the internal cam, he starts to shift the weight back across the vehicle and then at the most devastatingly effective moment he uses both his arms to wrench the steering wheel right round to full lock. He effectively threw that rrc over his shoulder!

[manic]

Defender-Elchtest: Wirbel bei den Handlern - auto motor und sport (https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/defender-elchtest-wirbel-bei-den-haendlern-731019.html)So much for sway bars! I would love to see the test video, is there one?

[rammypluge]

So much for sway bars! I would love to see the test video, is there one?I tried to find a video but failed.

A wider track and four wheel independent suspension would greatly reduce its rollability.

[rammypluge]

That was not a moose test, he was certainly trying to roll it for TV. Watch the internal cam, he starts to shift the weight back across the vehicle and then at the most devastatingly effective moment he uses both his arms to wrench the steering wheel right round to full lock. He effectively threw that rrc over his shoulder!I would have to check it again, but if he did that i wouldnt be surprised and it could be justified under a worse case scenerio. People will feel the impending roll and try to avoid it if they can, but in a worst worst case scenerio they cant. Its easy to not make it roll.

A full moose test with cones could be better. But i am not wholeheartedly sold on the moose test since it is making cars harsh riding, understeery and flexless.

[rick130]

The RRC driver in the video was presumably trying to stay on the 'road' and also avoid any oncoming traffic. The moose test involves swerving back into ones lane.

Most passenger cars need to be tripped to roll over, but many 4wds are a different story. However, most 4wds on showroom floors with esp would be hard to roll without a trip.

Less body roll reduces the risk of simple harmonic motion, where two or more factors combine and compound to create a rollover.

All that being said, many people are now blindly obsessed with minimal body roll, at the expense of many things, including ride comfort, off road ability and off road safety. Its about striking the right balance, and these days swaybars are typically taken too far.

As manic said he really wound on a heap of lock to induce that RRC to basically trip over it's own feet!
I think it'd be highly unusual to have the natural frequency of the suspension to match the tyre spring rate though, but it can happen.
[edit] I wonder what tyre pressures they were running in that RRC too? Go too low and the tyre folds over basically rolling too far off the rim. Sometimes the rim can hit the bitumen digging in and over you go.

Yep, agree with that last par, I think what happens is that some manufacturers go with really soft springs for a low wheel rate for ride compliance and then use possibly too stiff ARB's to balance the handling and reduce the wallow.
It also always amazes me how little rebound a lot of utes run in the rear dampers too. They just tend to pogo down the road.

I find it interesting that manufacturers have moved away from the zero roll of Active Suspension and the ACE system in the D2.
I think we need a bit of roll to help feel what's going on.

A lack of roll definitely feels better to most, and that includes experienced race drivers.
One of Schumachers advantages was the ability to run a little less low speed bump in his dampers as the bit of roll didn't worry him.
It let the car comply a little better, the roll transition took a little longer and generated a little more mechanical grip.

[rammypluge]

As manic said he really wound on a heap of lock to induce that RRC to basically trip over it's own feet!
I think it'd be highly unusual to have the natural frequency of the suspension to match the tyre spring rate though, but it can happen.
[edit] I wonder what tyre pressures they were running in that RRC too? Go too low and the tyre folds over basically rolling too far off the rim. Sometimes the rim can hit the bitumen digging in and over you go.

Yep, agree with that last par, I think what happens is that some manufacturers go with really soft springs for a low wheel rate for ride compliance and then use possibly too stiff ARB's to balance the handling and reduce the wallow.
It also always amazes me how little rebound a lot of utes run in the rear dampers too. They just tend to pogo down the road.

I find it interesting that manufacturers have moved away from the zero roll of Active Suspension and the ACE system in the D2.
I think we need a bit of roll to help feel what's going on.

A lack of roll definitely feels better to most, and that includes experienced race drivers.
One of Schumachers advantages was the ability to run a little less low speed bump in his dampers as the bit of roll didn't worry him.
It let the car comply a little better, the roll transition took a little longer and generated a little more mechanical grip.

If the natural frequency of the suspension matches the frequency of the body roll, a kind of pendulum effect. If the body has rolled over to one side and then you start a swing the other way, it creates maximum momentum. Like when two people use a trampoline to launch one person super high.

I agree a lot of utes dont have enough rebound, although i reckon a lot of trucks and some passenger vehicles are lacking too.

Body roll can help drivers judge the magnitude of the cornering forces, and create a softer, more forgiving (more recoverable) transition from grip to slide.

[JDNSW]

.........

Body roll can help drivers judge the magnitude of the cornering forces, and create a softer, more forgiving (more recoverable) transition from grip to slide.
Yes - a decent amount of body roll will frighten the driver into slowing down!

[uninformed]

I tried to find a video but failed.

A wider track and four wheel independent suspension would greatly reduce its rollability.

Thats a lot of modification work and engineering to change a defender/rrc to that.....

[rammypluge]

Thats a lot of modification work and engineering to change a defender/rrc to that.....Training wheels then.

[rammypluge]

..........or gyroscopes?

[martnH]

Defender-Elchtest: Wirbel bei den Handlern - auto motor und sport (https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/defender-elchtest-wirbel-bei-den-haendlern-731019.html)Woo even with both sway bars on.....

[uninformed]

Training wheels then.

I don’t have the need, or the desire for sway bars... nor a agenda

[rammypluge]

I don’t have the need, or the desire for sway bars... nor a agendaEveryone that goes across the simpson desert via the french or qaa lines, no matter what 4wd they have, should disengage or remove their swaybars. Do that and you will thank me afterwards.