Lead Crystal

[dazzler]

Anyone running with lead crystal?
Any issues?

I am trying to increase my available/usable energy density

Real world Pro's and Con's will be greatly appreciated.

pd

[Milton477]

Some discussion here: LiFePO4 or Lead Crystal to replace AGM? (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/254399-lifepo4-lead-crystal-replace-agm.html)

[dazzler]

Not much info on LC. Whilst LifePo4 sounds fantastic, I am not interesting in making a system change :) so have my eyes on a 110AH @C20 LC so feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[drivesafe]

Hi dazzler, I have been carrying out quite a few tests on a number of different sizes of Lead Crystal batteries for over 18 months now and the more I test and thrash these batteries, the more impressed I become.

I have just signed a new Sellers contract with Betta Batteries and can supply them to you if you go that way.

So ask any questions you have and I will do my best to give you answers.

Can I start by asking you a few questions.

How are you intending to use them and where are you going to be mounting them?

[Robmacca]

Hi dazzler, I have been carrying out quite a few tests on a number of different sizes of Lead Crystal batteries for over 18 months now and the more I test and thrash these batteries, the more impressed I become.

I have just signed a new Sellers contract with Betta Batteries and can supply them to you if you go that way.

So ask any questions you have and I will do my best to give you answers.

Can I start by asking you a few questions.

How are you intending to use them and where are you going to be mounting them?


Do they need a certain size Charger to charge these batteries. It was quoted to me that u need at least a charger that is 30% the size of the battery u have?

[dazzler]

Hi dazzler, I have been carrying out quite a few tests on a number of different sizes of Lead Crystal batteries for over 18 months now and the more I test and thrash these batteries, the more impressed I become.

I have just signed a new Sellers contract with Betta Batteries and can supply them to you if you go that way.

So ask any questions you have and I will do my best to give you answers.

Can I start by asking you a few questions.

How are you intending to use them and where are you going to be mounting them?


I am going to swap my starter with an AGM 110 that I have and use a 110 LC for all my aux. My thinking is it will give me similar capacity to 2 x 110 AGM in half the footprint. I have a CTEK D250sa + smartpass setup also.

Both batteries will coexist in the 110 battery box.

Thanks Tim,

PS: My flickering Headlight/driving light after your kit install was due bad earthing, all the lights worked initially for half hour then started flickering. Have run an earth cable all the way to earthing point near the battery and all seems to be good.

[drivesafe]

Hi Rob and you can use any size charger you have or want to have.

I have been experimenting with a range of charger sizes and like any lead acid battery, Lead Crystal batteries charge better with smaller current chargers, but I have used a 60 amp battery charger to charge a flat ( discharged down to 10.5v - 0% SoC ) 70Ah Lead Crystal battery and other than it getting warm, not hot, just warm, it charged without a problem.

I have also charged the same battery with a 2 amp charger and while it took days to charge, the battery ended up in a higher state of charge ( greater capacity ) than was achieved with the 60 amp charger.

[drivesafe]

I am going to swap my starter with an AGM 110 that I have and use a 110 LC for all my aux. My thinking is it will give me similar capacity to 2 x 110 AGM in half the footprint. I have a CTEK D250sa + smartpass setup also.

Both batteries will coexist in the 110 battery box.
Honestly dazzler, the CTEK is a waste of space. Flog it off on flea bay and put the money in your pocket.

As with ALL Land Rovers, they will charge batteries better than an DC/DC device can and usually do it quicker.

Having the CTEK D250 and the Smart-Pass simply means your batteries can be charged as quick as if you charged direct from your alternator. So again, they are just a waste of space with no gain.

[dazzler]

Honestly dazzler, the CTEK is a waste of space. Flog it off on flea bay and put the money in your pocket.

As with ALL Land Rovers, they will charge batteries better than an DC/DC device can and usually do it quicker.

Having the CTEK D250 and the Smart-Pass simply means your batteries can be charged as quick as if you charged direct from your alternator. So again, they are just a waste of space with no gain.


So what is my option around dual battery charger with solar then? I was under the impression the smatpass would compliment the higher charge rate of the LC, no?

[drivesafe]

Dazzler, if you have an electric winch, I would fit Optima Yellowtops.

Someone can correct me here, but I think you can fit 3 x Optima D34 batteries under the seat.

If so, this would give you the optimum setup.

[drivesafe]

So what is my option around dual battery charger with solar then? I was under the impression the smatpass would compliment the higher charge rate of the LC, no?
Yes the Smart charge will work with LCs but will NOT achieve a faster charge than what your alternator can do.

[dazzler]

Dont want to go down the path of changing my system, trays etc etc. I am looking at LC as an aux battery and need informed input as to what i can expect in real world use.

[dazzler]

Also PM price for a LC 110 please.

Thanks
pd

[dazzler]

Some discussion here: LiFePO4 or Lead Crystal to replace AGM? (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/254399-lifepo4-lead-crystal-replace-agm.html)


Thanks for sharing the thread, I am committed to go down the LC route this time around but love to explore large scale DIY LiFePO4 set up for home.
Are you able to share your the technical details please and where to source material etc.

Many Thanks,
pd

[DiscoMick]

So what is my option around dual battery charger with solar then? I was under the impression the smatpass would compliment the higher charge rate of the LC, no?
I just fitted an 80 watt solar panel to the roof rack, ran the wires to a 10amp regulator in the battery box, connected that to a circuit breaker as an added precaution against a regulator failure and then connected to the starting battery. A Traxide with cable and 60 amp fuses then connects the starting and auxiliary batteries.
The solar and alternator keep the starting battery charged so the Traxide maintains a connection to the auxiliary battery which also stays charged.
This setup has worked fine for two years and never tripped the circuit breaker.
So, no need for a DC-DC or anything else.

[dazzler]

I have had my setup for nearly 3 years and happy with it. I suppose it is a lazy way of doing it, but hey it in there and working so not really wanting to muck around with it.

All I wanted at this stage is to get feedback around LC and the questions around sizing/charging etc, but thats too late now aswell. I have just made purchase of 3 LC batteries for my traveling group.

Moving on, I want to investigate Li setup for my next upgrade (may be even stick a lot of that in the basement which can help mining altcoins [bigsmile])

[drivesafe]

A Traxide with cable and 60 amp fuses then connects the starting and auxiliary batteries.
The solar and alternator keep the starting battery charged so the Traxide maintains a connection to the auxiliary battery which also stays charged.
Yep works better than anything else on the market.

With nearly 30 years of experience, the system has well and truely proved it works.

[Robmacca]

Well, that's very interesting.....
I was in talking to my mate who had the Sales Rep for Lead Crystal Batteries in his shop talking about them selling the LC Batteries. After a long conversation, my mate decliined the offer to sell them due to a couple of reasons


1. The size of the charger that is required to charge them (sales rep quoted at least 30% of the Battery capacity is req'd).
2. If the LC battery is continously discharged/recharged, then the is a good chance that the battery can get a "memory" where by it will not fully charge.
3. The 3rd thing and I'm not sure if I this heard correctly, but the LC batteries will not hold their voltage as the capacity is drained out of them.




I'm not sure if the Sales Rep new his product or not, but with the cost of them compared to the AGM's, I think for the moment I'll be staying with the AGM's



Hi Rob and you can use any size charger you have or want to have.

I have been experimenting with a range of charger sizes and like any lead acid battery, Lead Crystal batteries charge better with smaller current chargers, but I have used a 60 amp battery charger to charge a flat ( discharged down to 10.5v - 0% SoC ) 70Ah Lead Crystal battery and other than it getting warm, not hot, just warm, it charged without a problem.

I have also charged the same battery with a 2 amp charger and while it took days to charge, the battery ended up in a higher state of charge ( greater capacity ) than was achieved with the 60 amp charger.

[drivesafe]

Hi Rob and I have no idea where that rep is getting his info from. I regularly talk to the owner of Betta Batteries and none of this crap has come up in the discussions I have had.


1. The size of the charger that is required to charge them (sales rep quoted at least 30% of the Battery capacity is req'd).
Already covered above.


2. If the LC battery is continously discharged/recharged, then the is a good chance that the battery can get a "memory" where by it will not fully charge.Mate, this one is off with the fairies. Memory is something that occurs in NiCad batteries, and there is no such thing in any form of lead acid batteries, including Lead Crystal batteries.

As I have posted earlier, I have been carrying out some rigorous tests on these batteries, and the one thing I have found, the more you use them, their capacity increases, be it by small amounts but none the less, their capacity increases.

If they suffered from memory effect, they would LOOSE capacity.

Also note, most lead acid batteries will gain capacity if continually discharged and immediately recharged. But if you do not use ordinary lead acid batteries, including AGMs, they can permanently loose some of their capacity. And ordinary lead acid batteries, including AGMs, must be fully charged before leaving them for long periods, and even then, they need regular maintenance charging, even month or so, or again, they can be permanently damaged.

Whereas, while Lead Crystal batteries will loose a VERY small amount of their capacity if left unused for VERY long periods of time, but they can be stored in ANY STATE OF CHARGE, do not need to be periodically "topped up", and as soon as you start using them again, they quickly regain their full capacity after just a few discharge/charge cycles.



3. The 3rd thing and I'm not sure if I this heard correctly, but the LC batteries will not hold their voltage as the capacity is drained out of themLead Crystal batteries are a form of lead acid batteries, and they have the same discharge characteristics as any other lead acid batteries except Lead Crystal batteries can be continually cycled down to 0% which most other lead acid batteries can not be.

Based on expected lifespan and the fact you get 20% more usable capacity than most AGMs, Lead Crystal batteries actually work out much cheaper then elcheapo AGMs.

[Ranga]

Just a reminder - what voltage can you take a lead crystal down to without damage?

[drivesafe]

Just a reminder - what voltage can you take a lead crystal down to without damage?
The answer is 0v. NOTE not 0% oSoC, which is 10.5v.

Lead Crystal batteries can be SAFELY discharged down it 0v and then recharged and used again.

I personally do not see this as an advantage, other than you will not damage a Lead Crystal battery if you forget and leave something on, like a camp light.

The very fact that these batteries are safe when cycled down to 10.5v, means that while there are few 12v devices that will run at 10.5v but none the less, these batteries can be used for powering such devices. 12v to 240vac inverters come to mind!

[dazzler]

Yes the Smart charge will work with LCs but will NOT achieve a faster charge than what your alternator can do.

Are you planning to put a kit together for next gen battery tech with support for solar at all?

Many Thanks,
pd

[drivesafe]

Hi dazzler and I have already upgraded the software in both the ABG-25 and the DT90, to cater for Lead Crystal batteries.

For the last 6 months, both these units are factory set to 11.6v low voltage cut-out but can now be reset by the user to have a low cut-out voltage setting of 10.5v.

This lower setting can be safely used with Optima Yellowtops and Lead Crystal batteries, giving both batteries a 20% increase in available capacity.

[dazzler]

Hi dazzler and I have already upgraded the software in both the ABG-25 and the DT90, to cater for Lead Crystal batteries.

For the last 6 months, both these units are factory set to 11.6v low voltage cut-out but can now be reset by the user to have a low cut-out voltage setting of 10.5v.

This lower setting can be safely used with Optima Yellowtops and Lead Crystal batteries, giving both batteries a 20% increase in available capacity.

Thanks for that,

What about LC charge profile? %50 rate of charge in boost cycle, when does boost kick in? I I have 2x110 LC then how does the charge/discharge work? can I also have 2 dissimilar LC batteries in the battery bank? more confused than before.

[Kidbeen]

The auxilliary battery in my defender is a lead crystal. It is 14 months old and has been great. I was going to buy a Fullriver battery but Jamie from the company below said I should spend a few more dollars and get a Lead Crystal. No regrets. Think I read somewhere they are used by the military and can last up to 16 years.

Lead Crystal Deep Cycle | Jamie's Touring Solutions (https://www.jtsonline.com.au/leadcrystal.html)

[dazzler]

The auxilliary battery in my defender is a lead crystal. It is 14 months old and has been great. I was going to buy a Fullriver battery but Jamie from the company below said I should spend a few more dollars and get a Lead Crystal. No regrets. Think I read somewhere they are used by the military and can last up to 16 years.

Lead Crystal Deep Cycle | Jamie's Touring Solutions (https://www.jtsonline.com.au/leadcrystal.html)

What model and what charger did you use? how long does it last and compare to a similarly sized AGM?

Many Thanks,
pd

[drivesafe]

What about LC charge profile? %50 rate of charge in boost cycle, when does boost kick in? I I have 2x110 LC then how does the charge/discharge work? can I also have 2 dissimilar LC batteries in the battery bank? more confused than before.
Hi again dazzler and when charging from an alternator, there is no need for “boost” or any other stage, as found with solar, DC/DC or battery chargers.

All three are constant CURRENT charging devices.

Alternators charge in a different way because they are constant VOLTAGE charging devices and as such they can charge faster but do not over charge any batteries, regardless of battery type.

As for for discharging. With any batteries wired in parallel, all the batteries will discharge at the same rate. So no issue there.

With any multiple battery setup, where the batteries are wired in parallel, then the capacity is a total of all the batteries in the setup.

This type of paralleled battery setup can be batteries of the same size, like your suggested 2 x 110Ah, the you have a total capacity of 220Ah.

If you had a 120Ah battery wired in parallel with a 7Ah battery, then you have a total battery capacity of 127Ah.

The size of each battery in a parallel setup is irrelevant as each battery is just part of the total capacity, which is made up of all the batteries in a given setup.

[drivesafe]

Folks, if you are interested in a Lead Crystal battery, send me a PM with the size of the battery, or part number of the battery, plus your delivery location, town or suburb, and I can give you a quote including delivery cost.

[Kidbeen]

What model and what charger did you use? how long does it last and compare to a similarly sized AGM?

Many Thanks,
pd

It is a 100 ah one. The charger I use is a Projecta IC1000, a 7 stage one. Are you talking longevity? If that is the case I hope to get a few more years out of it. Only time will tell. If you are talking amperage at a 100 ah you would only get the same run time as any other AGM. I bought it in an emergency between Christmas and New Year when my old one went cactus and I was about to go camping. The lead crystal cost me more than a normal AGM.

[dazzler]

It is a 100 ah one. The charger I use is a Projecta IC1000, a 7 stage one. Are you talking longevity? If that is the case I hope to get a few more years out of it. Only time will tell. If you are talking amperage at a 100 ah you would only get the same run time as any other AGM. I bought it in an emergency between Christmas and New Year when my old one went cactus and I was about to go camping. The lead crystal cost me more than a normal AGM.


Thanks Kidbeen,

I am going to couple 2x100ah (actually 110ah in c20 AGM money) and was wandering how much runtime you get compared to AGM, assuming you are lowering the cutoff voltage compared to AGM. I am expecting to get 20~30% better runtime.

Also wondering if your charger is adequate for LC as it is only rated a 10A, mine will need a @60A charger

Many Thanks
pd

[drivesafe]

If you are talking amperage at a 100 ah you would only get the same run time as any other AGM.Hi Kidbeen and you don't quite understand the difference in technologies.

If you have a standard 100Ah AGM, then you have a total of 80Ah of usable capacity, based on a C20 rating, because most AGMs can not be discharged below 20% SoC without damaging them.

If you have a 90Ah Lead Crystal battery ( 6-CNFJ-90 ) then based on the same C20 rating and the fact your can safely discharge Lead Crystal batteries down to 0% SoC, you have 100Ah available for use. A 70Ah Lead Crystal battery will give you 78Ah of usable capacity. Near equal to that of a 100Ah AGM.



The lead crystal cost me more than a normal AGM.But a Lead Crystal battery can be smaller for the same amount of energy required ( see above ) and a Lead Crystal battery will out last an AGM by 2 to 3 times.

It all depends on usage, and the more you intend to use a battery, the greater the cost advantage is to use a Lead Crystal Battery over a standard AGM.

[Kidbeen]

Hi Kidbeen and you don't quite understand the difference in technologies.

If you have a standard 100Ah AGM, then you have a total of 80Ah of usable capacity, based on a C20 rating, because most AGMs can not be discharged below 20% SoC without damaging them.

If you have a 90Ah Lead Crystal battery ( 6-CNFJ-90 ) then based on the same C20 rating and the fact your can safely discharge Lead Crystal batteries down to 0% SoC, you have 100Ah available for use. A 70Ah Lead Crystal battery will give you 78Ah of usable capacity. Near equal to that of a 100Ah AGM.


But a Lead Crystal battery can be smaller for the same amount of energy required ( see above ) and a Lead Crystal battery will out last an AGM by 2 to 3 times.

It all depends on usage, and the more you intend to use a battery, the greater the cost advantage is to use a Lead Crystal Battery over a standard AGM.

Thanks for setting me straight. Electronics are not one of my strengths but I thought I would be polite and reply to his question.

I also heard that lead crystal batteries can now be used full time as starter batteries. Is that factual?

[drivesafe]

I also heard that lead crystal batteries can now be used full time as starter batteries. Is that factual?
Hi again Kidbeen, to my knowledge, they are NOT suitable for use as cranking batteries.

I also do NOT recommend their use in engine bays.

A cranking battery version is on the way, but I do not know when they will be available.

[Kidbeen]

Hi again Kidbeen, to my knowledge, they are NOT suitable for use as cranking batteries.

I also do NOT recommend their use in engine bays.

A cranking battery version is on the way, but I do not know when they will be available.

Seeing you are the dual battery expert, you will know the answer to this question:-

My starter battery and Lead Crystal battery are connected via a Redarc Smart starter. I have had the batteries fully charged and the red Led was glowing on the Redarc. When I measured both their voltage they were both the same at 12.51V. I have just pulled the following from another forum but it was a 2009 post:-

"Until about 2 yrs ago, the Redarc battery isolators would remain active until the battery voltage dropped to 12.5 volts. More recent models 'turn off' when the battery voltage drops to 12.7 volts. I recently had one custom made & stipulated this cut off be set at 12.9 volts.

The red light will remain on until the battery voltage drops to the cut off level. I found that 12.5 volts was too low if camped in the one spot for around a week. With a start point of 12.5 volts, the battery voltage would drop to about 12v after a week due to the computer type items that keep operating when the vehicle is turned off. Also constant door opening drops the voltage with the internal light going on & off.

The customised Redarc isolator cost $160 in lieu of the normal $100 approx."


What is the science in reducing the voltage to 12.5v rather than 12.7V?

[drivesafe]

Hi Kidbeen, the lowering of the Cut-Out/Turn-Off voltage is more to do with the Cut-In/Turn-On voltage level.

Before the introduction of variable voltage alternators, or so called "smart alternators", the Cut-In/Turn-On voltage of most isolators was 13.7v or a little higher for some.

These usually had a Cut-Out/Turn-Off voltage of around 12.7 to 12.9v

This was all good and well until alternators would some times drop below 12.7, turning the isolator off, but then not get back up to 13.7v, so the isolator would remain off.

So they dropped the Cut-In/Turn-On to around 13.2v and at first, left the Cut-Out/Turn-Off as was.

In many cases, because the Cut-In and Cut-Out voltages were now to close, this resulted in the isolator oscillating, continually turning on and off all the time you were driving.

This type of isolator oscillation also caused problems in many new vehicles, including Discovery 3s when they first came out.

So they eventually dropped the Cut-Out/Turn-Off voltage to 12.5v and this stopped most of the oscillation.

Fortunately, my isolators have never suffered with this type of problem.

[DiscoMick]

Can I ask how lithium and lead crystal batteries compare? Advantages and disadvantages?
Possible uses would be either as a second battery or in a camper trailer.
I like the idea of getting two smaller batteries into the space needed for a single AGM, plus the weight saving.
I also like the idea of being able to discharge batteries deeper than AGMs.
What do you think?

[Kidbeen]

Hi Kidbeen, the lowering of the Cut-Out/Turn-Off voltage is more to do with the Cut-In/Turn-On voltage level.

Before the introduction of variable voltage alternators, or so called "smart alternators", the Cut-In/Turn-On voltage of most isolators was 13.7v or a little higher for some.

These usually had a Cut-Out/Turn-Off voltage of around 12.7 to 12.9v

This was all good and well until alternators would some times drop below 12.7, turning the isolator off, but then not get back up to 13.7v, so the isolator would remain off.

So they dropped the Cut-In/Turn-On to around 13.2v and at first, left the Cut-Out/Turn-Off as was.

In many cases, because the Cut-In and Cut-Out voltages were now to close, this resulted in the isolator oscillating, continually turning on and off all the time you were driving.

This type of isolator oscillation also caused problems in many new vehicles, including Discovery 3s when they first came out.

So they eventually dropped the Cut-Out/Turn-Off voltage to 12.5v and this stopped most of the oscillation.

Fortunately, my isolators have never suffered with this type of problem.

Thanks for the explanation. It is so good to understand why the isolator dropped the voltage to 12.51 as I guessed there was some good reason for doing it.

[drivesafe]

I also like the idea of being able to discharge batteries deeper than AGMs.Be very wary of this claim. If you have a 100Ah AGM and a 100Ah lithium, you have 80Ah available from both batteries.


Whereas, if you have a 100Ah Lead Crystal battery, you have 110Ah available.


The reason for the huge difference in usable capacity in Lead Crystal is because their marked rating is based on a C10 discharge rate, while nearly all other battery types are marked based on a C20 discharge rate.


The lighter load required for C20 rating, gives you more capacity, and when Lead Crystal batteries are discharged at the same C20 rating, they actually have a higher useable capacity than they are marked with.


I have no idea why they rate Lead Crystal batteries this way.


NOTE, lithium batteries are have pretty well the same useable Ah no matter what the current load is, but like AGMs, the last 20% is not available ( without damaging the battery ).


So in reality, you could replace a 100Ah AGM or lithium battery with a 70Ah Lead crystal battery and have nearly the same amount of available Ah.





Possible uses would be either as a second battery or in a camper trailer. I like the idea of getting two smaller batteries into the space needed for a single AGM, plus the weight saving.As posted above, the weight and size saving is not quite as good as it sounds.





Can I ask how lithium and lead crystal batteries compare? Advantages and disadvantages?Unless you have a major problem with weight and/or space, the vast majority of RVers, will not gain a thing by changing over to Lithiums.


But there are some situations where lithium batteries are by far the best option. These are extreme usage situations, like wanting to run an air conditioner while off-grid, or if you are cooking for large numbers of people such as a tourist camping group.


In these sorts of situations, a small lithium battery could easily power your cooking appliances for the short period of high current use at each meal and then be charged on the go between meal.


With air conditioners, there are a number of problems that need to be addressed, like needing a large combo-inverter to power the air conditioner, a large lithium battery bank to supply the power needed and then you need a means of recharging the battery bank.


Both of the above are not your typical RVers style of use.


With most RVers wanting to do just as you have posted Mick, then Lead Crystal batteries offer huge short and long term benefits over AGMs and have similar cycle rates to many lithium batteries, without the huge setup cost.


These benefits are easily gained because Lead Crystal batteries are a straight replacement for any deep cycle AGM.


On the other hand, lithium batteries have to be set up as a totally separate operation and you not only need the Lithium batteries but you also require a dedicated charging system for them.


Mick there is lots more to a comparison between Lead Crystal batteries and lithium batteries, but the above should give you the basics when trying to choose which is best for your type of usage.