Clutch Hydraulics Late Series 2A difference to Series 3

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

This is my first dip of the toe into Series 2A ownership so please bear with me.

Are there any differences between the Clutch Slave Cylinder and the Clutch Master Cylinder between a late Series 2A - wide headlights and a Series 3? Having only had Series 3 Land Rovers and lately having a Series 2A shorty follow me home makes this is new territory for me.

A quick glance on eBay shows some suppliers selling slave cylinders as fitting 2A, Series 3 and Defenders (part number 591231). While there are other slave cylinders that are shown as specific to to Series 2 and 2A (part number 266694).

The clutch master currently fitted to the 2A shorty is a tin cylinder reservoir. I cannot recall from my brief viewing if the reservoir was remote to the master cylinder body or integrated on top of the body like my Series 3 - 2.6 Litre six cylinder petrol motors are fitted with. I checked the clutch reservoir and it is dry as a bone. However, the brake reservoir had fluid sitting at the correct level. Who knows the clutch reservoir could just need topping up and just need a quick bleed? However, if this is not the case it poses some questions....

Did the late model - wide headlight Series 2A use the same clutch master cylinder as the Series 3?

Is there a difference in clutch master cylinders between the 2A 88 inch and the 2A 109 inch?

Is it possible to change the hubs so that the brake shoes, wheel cylinders and drums from a Series 3 109 be fitted to a Series 2A shorty?

The vehicle has a 3.0 litre Toyota diesel and Range Rover differential innards fitted to it. Extra braking power may be appreciated down the line. These may already be fitted to the vehicle as I found it on a farm during a drive in the country; went back to the nearest town with an ATM and paid for it. I took some happy snaps and then kept on my leisurely tour. This meant I did not come equipped to lift the vehicle up and remove wheels and brake drums on site.

With a Series 3 with a 2.25 litre diesel fitted as standard, I was pleasantly surprised to find that a previous owner had already upgraded the four cylinder brakes up to a six cylinder capacity. Once I get it home and can have a closer look; maybe I will be just as lucky with the new vehicle?

The link to the discovery of my latest acquisition - with photographs is found on... Toyota Diesel into 2A Shorty (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/other-powered-series-land-rovers/261681-toyota-diesel-into-2a-shorty-post2805403.html#post2805403)

Kind Regards
Lionel

[JDNSW]

Short answer - yes. Series 3 landrovers used a cylinder operating directly on the clutch fork, and the cylinder is on the left side of the Bell housing, similar to later Landrovers.

Series 2a* used a vertical cylinder on the TH side of the bell housing, operating a bell crank to turn the clutch shaft (inherited from the Series 1, where the pedal was on this shaft), with the shaft operating a fork actually within the gearbox, or actually an extension on the front.

* Suffix 'H' Series 2a Home market station wagons had a all synchromesh gearbox and clutch release setup differing only in minor details from Series 3. These had the same clutch slave cylinder as S3, but it is unlikely you have one of these. You could, of course, have one that has been fitted with an S3 box and clutch mechanism

[Lionelgee]

Short answer - yes. Series 3 landrovers used a cylinder operating directly on the clutch fork, and the cylinder is on the left side of the Bell housing, similar to later Landrovers.

Series 2a* used a vertical cylinder on the TH side of the bell housing, operating a bell crank to turn the clutch shaft (inherited from the Series 1, where the pedal was on this shaft), with the shaft operating a fork actually within the gearbox, or actually an extension on the front.

* Suffix 'H' Series 2a Home market station wagons had a all synchromesh gearbox and clutch release setup differing only in minor details from Series 3. These had the same clutch slave cylinder as S3, but it is unlikely you have one of these. You could, of course, have one that has been fitted with an S3 box and clutch mechanism

Hello John,

Thank you for the information. So from what I can gather from your descriptions is that it is more than highly likely that I will have to get some Series 2A clutch hydraulics.

Is the flexible hose different in the Series 2A compared to a Series 3?

It would be nice to be able to get the engine started and be able to change gears so that the vehicle can be driven onto the car trailer for the ride home. Then again it is not the first time I have winched vehicles onto a car trailer.

The disadvantage of not a having the vehicle parked at home so can walk outside and being able to inspect things. It would give me a definitive answer about what parts to use. I just have to wait patiently until I can go for a drive and check things out more closely - sigh - patience is a hard virtue to learn.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

Would these part numbers be correct for a late model Series 2A Short Wheel base:

1 of Clutch master cylinder - compression valve type, part number: 90569126
1 of Clutch slave cylinder, part number: 266694
1 of flexible clutch pipe, part number: RTC3386

In future if I took out the 2A clutch pedal box and swapped it for one from a Series 3 to utilise a Series 3 clutch master cylinder; would this join via the flexible pipe to the Series 2a clutch slave cylinder and bell housing? I have successfully done this with my Series 3 that was fitted as standard with a four cylinder 2.25 litre diesel. However, all the parts: bell-housing, clutch slave cylinder and non-compression valve type clutch master cylinder - plus flexible pipe were all Series 3 parts from start to finish.

P.S. writing about the former Series 3 clutch master cylinder conversion reminded me about something. I checked in the shed and found a new clutch master cylinder - part number 9056912. I had fitted it to the pedal box, then I had issues with an after-market reservoir which was a different shape to the original part. The after-market version sat too high and prevented the bonnet from closing. The new 90569126 was fitted and never got to be used, due to my changing the clutch system over to the type fitted to the Series 3's 2.6 litre petrol motor.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[JDNSW]

According to my parts book, the master cylinder is GMC310 and the hose is GBH134. Agrees with slave cylinder number you have.

The clutch pedal and bracket are identical between Series 2a and 3. Later Series 3 have a dual circuit boosted brake master cylinder, which may be what you are thinking of. Fitting this to a 2a requires panel work, as it would poke through the panel joining the foot well to the top of the mudguard. Simplest, especially for a wide light, is to source and fit S3 parts.

[Lionelgee]

According to my parts book, the master cylinder is GMC310 and the hose is GBH134. Agrees with slave cylinder number you have.

The clutch pedal and bracket are identical between Series 2a and 3. Later Series 3 have a dual circuit boosted brake master cylinder, which may be what you are thinking of. Fitting this to a 2a requires panel work, as it would poke through the panel joining the foot well to the top of the mudguard. Simplest, especially for a wide light, is to source and fit S3 parts.

Hello John,

Thanks for the part numbers. You had me worried there for a moment John with the different part numbers.

So I checked with L.R. Series, who are a United Kingdom based company that have a very good online parts search. They describe that GMC310 was superseded (S/S); it became 274841; and now has the part number of 90569126
Product Description: Land Rover series 2, 2A. Brake master cylinder assembly, also used as clutch master on earlier models.
Applicable Models: Land Rover Series 2, 2A Petrol & Diesel models.

While GBH134 had changes to:
S/S 268341
S/S 268493
and now has the new part number of RTC3386.
Product Description: Flexi brake hose, fits: Land Rover Series 1954-71 front & rear Land Rover Series 1971-84 rear (swb)
Also fits 101 Forward Control and series 2, 2A as flexi clutch pipe.
Applicable Models: Land Rover Series 1954-84 101 Forward Control (clutch)

Looks like the codes for the parts numbers have been regularly updated since the 1970s.

The least change has occurred with the clutch slave cylinder. S/S 511777 current Part number: 266694.
Product Description: Early series clutch slave cylinder.
Applicable Models: Land Rover Series 2, 2A, 4 & 6 cylinder petrol and diesel models.

L.R. Series website accessed May 13, 2018 from, Land Rover Series 1, 2, 2a and 3 (years 1948-1984) parts and spares at www.lrseries.com (http://www.lrseries.com/shop/category/listing/4504/1/Land-Rover-Series-1-2-3.html)
I just copied your parts numbers and pasted in their "Keyword or Part Number" search near the top right-hand corner of their web-page, then I hit "Search".

Thank you for your assistance John - it is much appreciated.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[67hardtop]

Lionel ive just used a brake master cyl of a trailer on my s2a, s3 and perentie. It fits the s2a pedal assy as well, just need to use the original pushrod to utilise the adjustability.

Cheers Rod

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

On Sunday I emailed British Off Road, who are based in Gympie - Queensland. To back the email up I rang them at 1:00 pm yesterday and confirmed the order for the clutch hydraulics parts. I arrived home from work this afternoon and an Express Post package with the parts in it were waiting in the mailbox for me. Even Australia Post must have taken all the stoppers out for the delivery too.

Now I just need to get access to the vehicle - another "it's dark outside" has come, so it is a day closer to towing the vehicle home!

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

With this being my first 2A I am not certain different switches and controls are. I flicked one switch on the central dash panel and an old personal electric fan that was sitting on the floor sprang to life. You know the type of fans people installed for keeping cool before air-conditioning became the norm. However, moving switches that would on my Series 3 turn the head lights on did not do so in the 2A. There are also a couple of switches - push button type that have been broken off flush with the face of the instrument panel. I am not sure what they are meant to operate?

I checked the switches for the headlights when the battery was newly installed and way before the engine got started. No headlights or tail lights came on when I flicked as many switches and pressed buttons where I could see them.

I found that one of the chrome toggle switches turns on the non-standard themo fan that is installed at the front of the radiator.

There is a half circle with ratchet-like teeth that a lever moves across situated below the instrument panel. To the right of the half-moon fixture are two toggle switches and the hiding place for the engine shut-down knob and cable.

Do 2A's have headlight dimmer switches - if so where are they be located?

In the central dash panel what switches and push buttons usually do what?

I also have to spend some time chasing the circuit for the Toyota diesel's glow plug switch/button or whatever arrangement has been installed somewhere.

I do know that the non-standard rear indicators do work - the front's don't.

Lots of wires running around and are just left cut-off, bare and unsecured. Lots of quality time ahead sorting out the rat's nest of wiring - wee.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[JDNSW]

Hello All,

With this being my first 2A I am not certain different switches and controls are. I flicked one switch on the central dash panel and an old personal electric fan that was sitting on the floor sprang to life. You know the type of fans people installed for keeping cool before air-conditioning became the norm. However, moving switches that would on my Series 3 turn the head lights on did not do so in the 2A. There are also a couple of switches - push button type that have been broken off flush with the face of the instrument panel. I am not sure what they are meant to operate?

I checked the switches for the headlights when the battery was newly installed and way before the engine got started. No headlights or tail lights came on when I flicked as many switches and pressed buttons where I could see them.

I found that one of the chrome toggle switches turns on the non-standard themo fan that is installed at the front of the radiator.

There is a half circle with ratchet-like teeth that a lever moves across situated below the instrument panel. Hand throttle To the right of the half-moon fixture are two toggle switches and the hiding place for the engine shut-down knob and cable.

Do 2A's have headlight dimmer switches - if so where are they be located?

On the floor to the left of the Clutch.

In the central dash panel what switches and push buttons usually do what?

Standard setup is: centre top, two toggle switches close together. LH is wipers, RH is lights. Toggle (or sometimes pushpull) top right - instrument lights. Bottom left, if fitted, heater fan. In the middle, between the two dials, ignition switch.

I also have to spend some time chasing the circuit for the Toyota diesel's glow plug switch/button or whatever arrangement has been installed somewhere.

If originally diesel, glow plugs are first position of ignition switch.

I do know that the non-standard rear indicators do work - the front's don't.

Lots of wires running around and are just left cut-off, bare and unsecured. Lots of quality time ahead sorting out the rat's nest of wiring - wee.

Kind Regards
Lionel

From what you have said, it sounds as if the wiring has been extensively modified since it left the factory! Note that as originally wired, from memory the only fuse is on ignition controlled accessories.

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

I figured that following the CSI Television series example finding things by torchlight can assist seeing things more clearly.

The plate on the radiator panel identifies the month and year of manufacture as 10/70. October 1970.

Not far from this is the number 24318509G. Is this the Chassis Number? I checked the rear passenger side spring hanger where the Series 3 have their chassis number and this was blank on Teddy. Is the chassis number stamped somewhere else on 2A's?

What year did 2A transition the headlights from the radiator to the mudguards?

Teddy has a brake booster which looks very much like the one on my Series 3 fitted with a 2.6 litre six cylinder petrol motor. I cannot see any cuts in the mudguard made to accommodate the brake booster. Could this mean that a previous owner fitted Series 3 mudguards? Or did the wide-light 2A shorties come out with brake boosters as an optional extra?

If the brake booster is a Series 3 that has been retrofitted it makes me optimistic that the brakes down on each wheel have been upgraded to the six cylinder sized system on each corner of the vehicle. I hope to have Teddy moving once i have the clutch sorted out tomorrow. I can then park on some concrete, jack Teddy up and sit on some stands so I can take the wheels off and start sorting the brakes out. Time will tell as to what brakes are fitted.

The Toyota diesel engine number - after getting cracked ribs from pivoting over the mudguard and leaning into the engine is: 0299706 - hopefully Toyota are kind enough to publish engine numbers and identify when the engine was manufactured; what vehicle it was fitted to, and what model the engine is.


Kind Regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

From what you have said, it sounds as if the wiring has been extensively modified since it left the factory! Note that as originally wired, from memory the only fuse is on ignition controlled accessories.

Hello John,

Thank you for the pointers John, much appreciated. According to the plate on the radiator Teddy was manufactured in October 1970. This is close to 48 years to allow different owners to stamp their "improvements" on the electrical system. Oh plus for the last owner to fit a Toyota diesel to it.


Kind Regards
Lionel

[JDNSW]

Hello All,

I figured that following the CSI Television series example finding things by torchlight can assist seeing things more clearly.

The plate on the radiator panel identifies the month and year of manufacture as 10/70. October 1970.

Not far from this is the number 24318509G. Is this the Chassis Number? I checked the rear passenger side spring hanger where the Series 3 have their chassis number and this was blank on Teddy. Is the chassis number stamped somewhere else on 2A's?

That sounds exactly like a chassis number. The chassis number on S2as built in Australia should be where you looked, on the LH rear back spring hanger. If assembled elsewhere??? UK built ones I think should be in the same place as Defenders - outside of the chassis rail RH front, just in front of the wheel. It is possible that the bit of chassis with the number on it has been replaced, but if you can't find it elsewhere, I would strip all the paint from the expected spot on the rear spring hanger as a first step. You will have issues getting it registered without the number stamped on the chassis

What year did 2A transition the headlights from the radiator to the mudguards?

Nominally, 1969 - but my 1970 (military) one does not have them in the guards. Army production may have continued to use the existing stock of panels. Same for Australian built civilian ones - I am pretty sure the panels were made here by then.

Teddy has a brake booster which looks very much like the one on my Series 3 fitted with a 2.6 litre six cylinder petrol motor. I cannot see any cuts in the mudguard made to accommodate the brake booster. Could this mean that a previous owner fitted Series 3 mudguards? Or did the wide-light 2A shorties come out with brake boosters as an optional extra?

The booster integrated with the master cylinder was not, as far as I know, an option for the 2a, but I think it is possible to fit a single circuit M/C and booster the same as single circuit S3 boosted brakes without running foul of the tinware. If it is a dual circuit master cylinder then the mudguard must be S3 (or has been modified). The optional booster on 2a Landrovers was a remote one.

If the brake booster is a Series 3 that has been retrofitted it makes me optimistic that the brakes down on each wheel have been upgraded to the six cylinder sized system on each corner of the vehicle. I hope to have Teddy moving once i have the clutch sorted out tomorrow. I can then park on some concrete, jack Teddy up and sit on some stands so I can take the wheels off and start sorting the brakes out. Time will tell as to what brakes are fitted.

The Toyota diesel engine number - after getting cracked ribs from pivoting over the mudguard and leaning into the engine is: 0299706 - hopefully Toyota are kind enough to publish engine numbers and identify when the engine was manufactured; what vehicle it was fitted to, and what model the engine is.


Kind Regards
Lionel

You don't actually have to even take off the wheels to see what brakes have been fitted, but you probably want to have a good look at their condition anyway, as well as see what brakes they are!

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

Well I learned something today. The diameter of the metal clutch pipe on the 2A is a smaller diameter than the pipe on a Series 3. The Series 3 clutch master cylinder has an adapter that steps up the pipe diameter. Gee the 2A diameter seems to be so small when you are used to the Series 3!

I traced the pipe from the master cylinder on the 2A down to the junction between the metal pipe from the master cylinder down to where it joins the flexible rubber pipe. Then the pipe disappears between the floor and the chassis and I could not see the clutch slave cylinder.

With the Series 3 it is accessible while lying under the vehicle - I could not see the same accessibility with the 2A slave cylinder on the driver's side of the vehicle.

Is the clutch slave cylinder mainly accessible when the driver's side floor plate is lifted out?

Kind Regards
Lionel

[JDNSW]

Sort of - still a bit fiddly, but it can be done. Easier with the transmission tunnel panel and the bit in front of it removed as well.

[Lionelgee]

Sort of - still a bit fiddly, but it can be done. Easier with the transmission tunnel panel and the bit in front of it removed as well.

Hello John,

Thank you for the insight as how to track down the slave cylinder.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

Are these Lucas glass lens signal lights: brake, indicator, and tail lights the most correct for a 1970 2A?

As far as the rear light ex-Army rear signal light protecting shrouds go - thanks to a tip-off from Ozeraser - in REMLR, I went directed to a link on Gumtree. A set will be coming up from South Australia. Thank you Rohan for accepting my offer and selling them to me. It will be good to remove the ugly set of indicators that currently sit at the back, plus have the shrouds to protect them.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[JDNSW]

My parts book lists four types of lights - Lucas, Wipac, Perei, and Sparto. And I am pretty certain other lights have been fitted as well, especially in places like Australia, where local content rules applied. None of them, as far as I can see, look exactly like the ones shown.

While there is nothing really special about the front lights, note that the rear stop/tail lights all included a reflector. This precludes the use, for example, of Defender lights, unless you want to add a reflector.

[mick88]

Hello All,

I figured that following the CSI Television series example finding things by torchlight can assist seeing things more clearly.

The plate on the radiator panel identifies the month and year of manufacture as 10/70. October 1970.

Not far from this is the number 24318509G. Is this the Chassis Number? I checked the rear passenger side spring hanger where the Series 3 have their chassis number and this was blank on Teddy. Is the chassis number stamped somewhere else on 2A's?

What year did 2A transition the headlights from the radiator to the mudguards?

Teddy has a brake booster which looks very much like the one on my Series 3 fitted with a 2.6 litre six cylinder petrol motor. I cannot see any cuts in the mudguard made to accommodate the brake booster. Could this mean that a previous owner fitted Series 3 mudguards? Or did the wide-light 2A shorties come out with brake boosters as an optional extra?

If the brake booster is a Series 3 that has been retrofitted it makes me optimistic that the brakes down on each wheel have been upgraded to the six cylinder sized system on each corner of the vehicle. I hope to have Teddy moving once i have the clutch sorted out tomorrow. I can then park on some concrete, jack Teddy up and sit on some stands so I can take the wheels off and start sorting the brakes out. Time will tell as to what brakes are fitted.

The Toyota diesel engine number - after getting cracked ribs from pivoting over the mudguard and leaning into the engine is: 0299706 - hopefully Toyota are kind enough to publish engine numbers and identify when the engine was manufactured; what vehicle it was fitted to, and what model the engine is.


Kind Regards
Lionel


G'day Lionel,
I think it was about 1969 that the 2A's sold here had the headlights fitted in the wings.

I have 1971 "2A widelight" which was purchased in late December of 1971, so possibly built mid 71 I would assume, and it has non power assisted ten inch brakes.

The verticle type clutch slave cylinder wasn't used in the series 3 swb, however I have a series 3 109 (6 cylinder) that has it fitted and I think it is original.

Do you know what capacity the Toyota donk is?

Cheers, Mick.

[Lionelgee]

Hello Mick,

Guestimate is a 3.0 litre motor.

I have not been able to find a website that decodes the engine number. I did find a site that does have engine numbers for 1979 Land Cruisers and my engine serial number has the same format. If this guess is accurate then the B Series motor of the time were available as 3.0 litres.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

Well if there were a 2A clutch slave cylinder fan club I would not be signing up for it. Few things are more frustrating then being able to see a nut and bolt but not having tools that can reach them. I got to undo them after a couple of hours of exploring different techniques. Then I got to relive the joy when I tightened them up.

I have removed the remote reservoir and replaced the 2A clutch master cylinder with a new Series 3 one.

Tomorrow's task is to measure and bend up the new brake line that connects the Series 3 master cylinder to the Series 2A flexible pipe. Then replace all the poly linings on my pressure bleeder and fingers crossed - I have an operational clutch.

My strategy of getting a new slave and master cylinder paid off. The slave cylinder was very - very gross with major leaks.

While rummaging around in the cargo area of the shortie I found a set of old rear shock absorbers. Just have to work out where the missing connection points are - or if I can borrow them from another "spares" vehicle.

Well the tools I used are clean and put away. Time for me to sign off for the day.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[bemm52]

I found the clutch very easy to bleed conventionally as the slave cylinder is almost directly below master cylinder.........hopefully it will go easy for you.

cheers Paul

[Lionelgee]

I found the clutch very easy to bleed conventionally as the slave cylinder is almost directly below master cylinder.........hopefully it will go easy for you.

cheers Paul

Hello Paul,

Thanks for your message.

The biggest issue was removing the old slave cylinder and fitting in the new one. I am not sure whether the location of the Toyota diesel exhaust pipe blocked what may be easy access with a standard Land Rover motor fitted. However, there was far from easy access to engine side slave cylinder bolt. It literally took me hours to remove and replace the slave cylinder because of the engine side bolt. I did not have the correct shaped "half-moon", "C", or "Serpentine" or some form of "obstruction" spanner in a half inch to tighten the engine compartment side bolt and nut.

I replaced all the poly lines for my pressure bleeder. I have installed a Series III clutch master cylinder.The bleeding was very easy and trouble free after getting slave cylinder tightened down.

I am in the market for a set of "obstruction" spanners - the only one I have was too large - 9/16 and I needed a 1/2 inch.

Are there any tips people have of removing the clutch slave cylinder and tightening it down? Or did the Toyota motor's exhaust pipe make an easy job a hard one?

Kind Regards
Lionel

[JDNSW]

It is a while since I have done this (I fitted a stainless steel sleeved slave cylinder!), but as I recall, it was a pain to do, but not really difficult. I seem to remember that I used a long extension and socket from underneath on the bolts, just holding the nuts with some sort of fixed spanner.

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

The joys of working on old motor vehicles that have passed through numerous previous owner's hands. Yesterday - Bundaberg Show Day Holiday - I went to undo the nuts that hold on the two brake wheel cylinders and to disconnect the brake pipe. No clearance issues with the top set at all. I went to undo the bottom set of brake goodies and there was no clearance to get spanners in.

I ducked underneath and found that the backing plate had more bends in it then a banana! Bends running from top to bottom and a warp running from side to side. I had to try and straighten it with a large gear puller just to be able to have room for a spanner to work in.

The bends in the backing plate must have made braking a really - really interesting experience.

Luckily I have 109 inch that came fitted with a Land Rover 2.25 litre four cylinder diesel - it became the donor for a nice and straight backing plate. That was today's job - taking the backing plate off. I took a Rostered Day Off - so a four day long-weekend.

Just have to fit up the passenger side front's backing plate then install new brake shoes and brake wheel cylinders - new flexible pipes. After that I can see what fun is in store for me with the driver's side front.

I checked the size of the brakes and they have not been upgraded to a set off a Series 3 with a six cylinder petrol motor

Kind Regards
Lionel