Clutch Hydraulics Late Series 2A difference to Series 3

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

This is my first dip of the toe into Series 2A ownership so please bear with me.

Are there any differences between the Clutch Slave Cylinder and the Clutch Master Cylinder between a late Series 2A - wide headlights and a Series 3? Having only had Series 3 Land Rovers and lately having a Series 2A shorty follow me home makes this is new territory for me.

A quick glance on eBay shows some suppliers selling slave cylinders as fitting 2A, Series 3 and Defenders (part number 591231). While there are other slave cylinders that are shown as specific to to Series 2 and 2A (part number 266694).

The clutch master currently fitted to the 2A shorty is a tin cylinder reservoir. I cannot recall from my brief viewing if the reservoir was remote to the master cylinder body or integrated on top of the body like my Series 3 - 2.6 Litre six cylinder petrol motors are fitted with. I checked the clutch reservoir and it is dry as a bone. However, the brake reservoir had fluid sitting at the correct level. Who knows the clutch reservoir could just need topping up and just need a quick bleed? However, if this is not the case it poses some questions....

Did the late model - wide headlight Series 2A use the same clutch master cylinder as the Series 3?

Is there a difference in clutch master cylinders between the 2A 88 inch and the 2A 109 inch?

Is it possible to change the hubs so that the brake shoes, wheel cylinders and drums from a Series 3 109 be fitted to a Series 2A shorty?

The vehicle has a 3.0 litre Toyota diesel and Range Rover differential innards fitted to it. Extra braking power may be appreciated down the line. These may already be fitted to the vehicle as I found it on a farm during a drive in the country; went back to the nearest town with an ATM and paid for it. I took some happy snaps and then kept on my leisurely tour. This meant I did not come equipped to lift the vehicle up and remove wheels and brake drums on site.

With a Series 3 with a 2.25 litre diesel fitted as standard, I was pleasantly surprised to find that a previous owner had already upgraded the four cylinder brakes up to a six cylinder capacity. Once I get it home and can have a closer look; maybe I will be just as lucky with the new vehicle?

The link to the discovery of my latest acquisition - with photographs is found on... Toyota Diesel into 2A Shorty

Kind Regards
Lionel

[JDNSW]

Short answer - yes. Series 3 landrovers used a cylinder operating directly on the clutch fork, and the cylinder is on the left side of the Bell housing, similar to later Landrovers.

Series 2a* used a vertical cylinder on the TH side of the bell housing, operating a bell crank to turn the clutch shaft (inherited from the Series 1, where the pedal was on this shaft), with the shaft operating a fork actually within the gearbox, or actually an extension on the front.

* Suffix 'H' Series 2a Home market station wagons had a all synchromesh gearbox and clutch release setup differing only in minor details from Series 3. These had the same clutch slave cylinder as S3, but it is unlikely you have one of these. You could, of course, have one that has been fitted with an S3 box and clutch mechanism

[Lionelgee]

Short answer - yes. Series 3 landrovers used a cylinder operating directly on the clutch fork, and the cylinder is on the left side of the Bell housing, similar to later Landrovers.

Series 2a* used a vertical cylinder on the TH side of the bell housing, operating a bell crank to turn the clutch shaft (inherited from the Series 1, where the pedal was on this shaft), with the shaft operating a fork actually within the gearbox, or actually an extension on the front.

* Suffix 'H' Series 2a Home market station wagons had a all synchromesh gearbox and clutch release setup differing only in minor details from Series 3. These had the same clutch slave cylinder as S3, but it is unlikely you have one of these. You could, of course, have one that has been fitted with an S3 box and clutch mechanism

Hello John,

Thank you for the information. So from what I can gather from your descriptions is that it is more than highly likely that I will have to get some Series 2A clutch hydraulics.

Is the flexible hose different in the Series 2A compared to a Series 3?

It would be nice to be able to get the engine started and be able to change gears so that the vehicle can be driven onto the car trailer for the ride home. Then again it is not the first time I have winched vehicles onto a car trailer.

The disadvantage of not a having the vehicle parked at home so can walk outside and being able to inspect things. It would give me a definitive answer about what parts to use. I just have to wait patiently until I can go for a drive and check things out more closely - sigh - patience is a hard virtue to learn.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

Would these part numbers be correct for a late model Series 2A Short Wheel base:

1 of Clutch master cylinder - compression valve type, part number: 90569126
1 of Clutch slave cylinder, part number: 266694
1 of flexible clutch pipe, part number: RTC3386

In future if I took out the 2A clutch pedal box and swapped it for one from a Series 3 to utilise a Series 3 clutch master cylinder; would this join via the flexible pipe to the Series 2a clutch slave cylinder and bell housing? I have successfully done this with my Series 3 that was fitted as standard with a four cylinder 2.25 litre diesel. However, all the parts: bell-housing, clutch slave cylinder and non-compression valve type clutch master cylinder - plus flexible pipe were all Series 3 parts from start to finish.

P.S. writing about the former Series 3 clutch master cylinder conversion reminded me about something. I checked in the shed and found a new clutch master cylinder - part number 9056912. I had fitted it to the pedal box, then I had issues with an after-market reservoir which was a different shape to the original part. The after-market version sat too high and prevented the bonnet from closing. The new 90569126 was fitted and never got to be used, due to my changing the clutch system over to the type fitted to the Series 3's 2.6 litre petrol motor.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[JDNSW]

According to my parts book, the master cylinder is GMC310 and the hose is GBH134. Agrees with slave cylinder number you have.

The clutch pedal and bracket are identical between Series 2a and 3. Later Series 3 have a dual circuit boosted brake master cylinder, which may be what you are thinking of. Fitting this to a 2a requires panel work, as it would poke through the panel joining the foot well to the top of the mudguard. Simplest, especially for a wide light, is to source and fit S3 parts.

[Lionelgee]

According to my parts book, the master cylinder is GMC310 and the hose is GBH134. Agrees with slave cylinder number you have.

The clutch pedal and bracket are identical between Series 2a and 3. Later Series 3 have a dual circuit boosted brake master cylinder, which may be what you are thinking of. Fitting this to a 2a requires panel work, as it would poke through the panel joining the foot well to the top of the mudguard. Simplest, especially for a wide light, is to source and fit S3 parts.

Hello John,

Thanks for the part numbers. You had me worried there for a moment John with the different part numbers.

So I checked with L.R. Series, who are a United Kingdom based company that have a very good online parts search. They describe that GMC310 was superseded (S/S); it became 274841; and now has the part number of 90569126
Product Description: Land Rover series 2, 2A. Brake master cylinder assembly, also used as clutch master on earlier models.
Applicable Models: Land Rover Series 2, 2A Petrol & Diesel models.

While GBH134 had changes to:
S/S 268341
S/S 268493
and now has the new part number of RTC3386.
Product Description: Flexi brake hose, fits: Land Rover Series 1954-71 front & rear Land Rover Series 1971-84 rear (swb)
Also fits 101 Forward Control and series 2, 2A as flexi clutch pipe.
Applicable Models: Land Rover Series 1954-84 101 Forward Control (clutch)

Looks like the codes for the parts numbers have been regularly updated since the 1970s.

The least change has occurred with the clutch slave cylinder. S/S 511777 current Part number: 266694.
Product Description: Early series clutch slave cylinder.
Applicable Models: Land Rover Series 2, 2A, 4 & 6 cylinder petrol and diesel models.

L.R. Series website accessed May 13, 2018 from, Land Rover Series 1, 2, 2a and 3 (years 1948-1984) parts and spares at www.lrseries.com
I just copied your parts numbers and pasted in their "Keyword or Part Number" search near the top right-hand corner of their web-page, then I hit "Search".

Thank you for your assistance John - it is much appreciated.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[67hardtop]

Lionel ive just used a brake master cyl of a trailer on my s2a, s3 and perentie. It fits the s2a pedal assy as well, just need to use the original pushrod to utilise the adjustability.

Cheers Rod

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

On Sunday I emailed British Off Road, who are based in Gympie - Queensland. To back the email up I rang them at 1:00 pm yesterday and confirmed the order for the clutch hydraulics parts. I arrived home from work this afternoon and an Express Post package with the parts in it were waiting in the mailbox for me. Even Australia Post must have taken all the stoppers out for the delivery too.

Now I just need to get access to the vehicle - another "it's dark outside" has come, so it is a day closer to towing the vehicle home!

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

With this being my first 2A I am not certain different switches and controls are. I flicked one switch on the central dash panel and an old personal electric fan that was sitting on the floor sprang to life. You know the type of fans people installed for keeping cool before air-conditioning became the norm. However, moving switches that would on my Series 3 turn the head lights on did not do so in the 2A. There are also a couple of switches - push button type that have been broken off flush with the face of the instrument panel. I am not sure what they are meant to operate?

I checked the switches for the headlights when the battery was newly installed and way before the engine got started. No headlights or tail lights came on when I flicked as many switches and pressed buttons where I could see them.

I found that one of the chrome toggle switches turns on the non-standard themo fan that is installed at the front of the radiator.

There is a half circle with ratchet-like teeth that a lever moves across situated below the instrument panel. To the right of the half-moon fixture are two toggle switches and the hiding place for the engine shut-down knob and cable.

Do 2A's have headlight dimmer switches - if so where are they be located?

In the central dash panel what switches and push buttons usually do what?

I also have to spend some time chasing the circuit for the Toyota diesel's glow plug switch/button or whatever arrangement has been installed somewhere.

I do know that the non-standard rear indicators do work - the front's don't.

Lots of wires running around and are just left cut-off, bare and unsecured. Lots of quality time ahead sorting out the rat's nest of wiring - wee.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[JDNSW]

Hello All,

With this being my first 2A I am not certain different switches and controls are. I flicked one switch on the central dash panel and an old personal electric fan that was sitting on the floor sprang to life. You know the type of fans people installed for keeping cool before air-conditioning became the norm. However, moving switches that would on my Series 3 turn the head lights on did not do so in the 2A. There are also a couple of switches - push button type that have been broken off flush with the face of the instrument panel. I am not sure what they are meant to operate?

I checked the switches for the headlights when the battery was newly installed and way before the engine got started. No headlights or tail lights came on when I flicked as many switches and pressed buttons where I could see them.

I found that one of the chrome toggle switches turns on the non-standard themo fan that is installed at the front of the radiator.

There is a half circle with ratchet-like teeth that a lever moves across situated below the instrument panel. Hand throttle To the right of the half-moon fixture are two toggle switches and the hiding place for the engine shut-down knob and cable.

Do 2A's have headlight dimmer switches - if so where are they be located?

On the floor to the left of the Clutch.

In the central dash panel what switches and push buttons usually do what?

Standard setup is: centre top, two toggle switches close together. LH is wipers, RH is lights. Toggle (or sometimes pushpull) top right - instrument lights. Bottom left, if fitted, heater fan. In the middle, between the two dials, ignition switch.

I also have to spend some time chasing the circuit for the Toyota diesel's glow plug switch/button or whatever arrangement has been installed somewhere.

If originally diesel, glow plugs are first position of ignition switch.

I do know that the non-standard rear indicators do work - the front's don't.

Lots of wires running around and are just left cut-off, bare and unsecured. Lots of quality time ahead sorting out the rat's nest of wiring - wee.

Kind Regards
Lionel

From what you have said, it sounds as if the wiring has been extensively modified since it left the factory! Note that as originally wired, from memory the only fuse is on ignition controlled accessories.