EV Range Anxiety

[goingbush]

So much for Electric vehicle not having the range to tour Australia.

A 70year old woman (not that age matters) has completed a 20,000km circumnavigation of Australia in a Tesla , total cost for electricity ($150.00)

and this guy just drove from Holland to Darwin in what looks to be a DIY VW conversion
Electric car pulls up in Darwin after 800 day journey from the Netherlands - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-24/electric-car-pulls-up-in-darwin-after-800-day-journey/9902376)

From the Netherlands to Australia in an EV | RAC WA (https://rac.com.au/car-motoring/info/future_around-the-world-in-an-ev)

[Mick_Marsh]

So, I'd be able to drive from Melbourne to Sydney in a day. In a ICE powered car, it will take me a little over eight hours. Can an EV do it within twelve?

Don't get me wrong, Don. I was very impressed when I saw your conversion but, you seemed to think you would not have been able to drive there and back on one charge.
And how long does it take to fill the tank, so to speak? From empty to full, overnight? That's two days Melbourne to Sydney.

[Mick_Marsh]

Oh, and to prove I read the article:

The car, dubbed 'The Blue Bandit', can drive 200 kilometres before it runs out of power.

I know there are some distances which are bigger than that but there's nothing there so I know there are a lot of Tesla owners in this country so I hope I get maybe towed by someone.

[goingbush]

Obviouously there needs to be some culture 'adjustments'

I haven't been on train since i was a school kid, And I need to go to Sydney , Have booked first class tickets to go on the XPT , return price is cheaper than the diesel I'd use to go one way. & takes about the same time , plus I'll be able to check out the dining car !! Funny how easily you adapt - never ever considered that before.

[Mick_Marsh]

Obviouously there needs to be some culture 'adjustments'

I haven't been on train since i was a school kid, And I need to go to Sydney , Have booked first class tickets to go on the XPT , return price is cheaper than the diesel I'd use to go one way. & takes about the same time , plus I'll be able to check out the dining car !! Funny how easily you adapt - never ever considered that before.
Yep. And how shall I bring the trailer back?

[gromit]

Obviouously there needs to be some culture 'adjustments'

I haven't been on train since i was a school kid, And I need to go to Sydney , Have booked first class tickets to go on the XPT , return price is cheaper than the diesel I'd use to go one way. & takes about the same time , plus I'll be able to check out the dining car !! Funny how easily you adapt - never ever considered that before.

So buy an electric vehicle and use it to drive to the train station ?

I think we're a long way off electric vehicles (not hybrids) that meet the needs of all users. Mick's point about trailers/towing is one, range may be an issue for many but for others as a commuter vehicle they may meet all their needs.

Are they really 'greener' than an IC powered vehicle ? I think that's still up for discussion.....
Less emissions ? yes if charged using solar power but otherwise the emissions are at the power station.
Emissions also come from battery production & disposal.
More flexible & powerful in a automotive application ? Yes definitely but we quickly come back to range again.

I think my next purchase in a few years time will still have an IC engine but I understand why others may choose an EV.


Colin

[goingbush]

So buy an electric vehicle and use it to drive to the train station ?

I think we're a long way off electric vehicles (not hybrids) that meet the needs of all users. Mick's point about trailers/towing is one, range may be an issue for many but for others as a commuter vehicle they may meet all their needs.

Are they really 'greener' than an IC powered vehicle ? I think that's still up for discussion.....
Less emissions ? yes if charged using solar power but otherwise the emissions are at the power station.
Emissions also come from battery production & disposal.
More flexible & powerful in a automotive application ? Yes definitely but we quickly come back to range again.

I think my next purchase in a few years time will still have an IC engine but I understand why others may choose an EV.


Colin


Yep. Agreed, EV are not for everybody & I respect their opinions (unless they quote **** from the Koch Brothers)
I converted my LandRover to learn the tech & now see the argument from both sides. Most people that argue against EV's have never driven one. Electric forklifts , milk floats & Golf Buggys & Toyota Prius don't count.

Theres a lot of misinformation about EV's most of it initiated by Oil Companies . The Motor industry hate them as they will lose out on servicing / maintenance revenue.

At Least BP are getting onboard & have been for some time (IE BP Solar Panels have been about forever) BP have just bought UK's biggest charging network & are expanding it with rapid chargers, good move .

Yes of course EV's are greener , It takes as much electricity to extract and refine oil as it takes to drive an EV for the same distance that the oil would , and theres no further pollution . Batteries are 100% recyclable
But Im not even remotely interested in the politics nor the 'greenness' , I love them for more selfish reasons. Free to run , 100% reliable , Zero maintenance , Awesome to drive & 100% torque from zero & a host of other selfish reasons.

I just know I'll never buy another ICE car or 4x4. Im waiting for the New Defender , I know I said I wont buy one if its IFS , which it will be, but if theres a 100% battery model, as they say there will be, that will override the IFS / live axle argument for me , For the first time in 72 years there will be a reliable LandRover that dosen't leak oil. (Oh if it looks anything remotely like a D5 or RangeRover family I also won't buy one & will get an I-Pace instead)

[gromit]

Batteries are 100% recyclable

I remember when the Prius was launched they stated that the batteries at that time were not recyclable but by the time they came to the end of their life they would have sorted that out ?!
I also remember the $10K figure for replacement batteries but I also realise that battery technology has improved and costs are probably a lot lower now.

Are batteries 100% recyclable ? At what cost ?

The company I work for are involved with an electric truck being built for one of the large supermarket chains locally. Motors & batteries produced locally I'm told. Not sure if it's viable, a prototype or just being used for marketing purposes.
I'm involved with the blue oval (yes they still have a lot of people in R&D locally) and they have a partnership with a Chinese company to produce an EV.
Land Rover are heading in the direction of EV's as is every major car manufacturer.

So the sound of a V8 along with the 'pleasure' of motoring & motoring 'freedom' will eventually become things of the past.

We are heading towards a generation that want to get into their autonomous EV and via an app tell it where to take them. They can then continue to 'interact' on social media telling everyone about every aspect of their life and commenting on subjects they know little, if anything, about....it's a bright new future !


Colin

Colin

[Homestar]

So buy an electric vehicle and use it to drive to the train station ?

I think we're a long way off electric vehicles (not hybrids) that meet the needs of all users. Mick's point about trailers/towing is one, range may be an issue for many but for others as a commuter vehicle they may meet all their needs.

Are they really 'greener' than an IC powered vehicle ? I think that's still up for discussion.....
Less emissions ? yes if charged using solar power but otherwise the emissions are at the power station.
Emissions also come from battery production & disposal.
More flexible & powerful in a automotive application ? Yes definitely but we quickly come back to range again.

I think my next purchase in a few years time will still have an IC engine but I understand why others may choose an EV.


Colin

Regarding emmisions, even changing the batteries from the mains supplied by a coal power station still produces around 50% less emmissions that the equivelant ICE vehicle, so not perfect, but a good start on that front IMO.

Yes, still a long way off to meet all users needs, but for the average commuter that may only use the second car to do exactly that with or run the kids to Footy, they would work well. I think with 98% of what SWMBO does with her car, an EV would be viable right now.

[goingbush]

I remember when the Prius was launched they stated that the batteries at that time were not recyclable but by the time they came to the end of their life they would have sorted that out ?!
I also remember the $10K figure for replacement batteries but I also realise that battery technology has improved and costs are probably a lot lower now.

Are batteries 100% recyclable ? At what cost ?

The company I work for are involved with an electric truck being built for one of the large supermarket chains locally. Motors & batteries produced locally I'm told. Not sure if it's viable, a prototype or just being used for marketing purposes.
I'm involved with the blue oval (yes they still have a lot of people in R&D locally) and they have a partnership with a Chinese company to produce an EV.
Land Rover are heading in the direction of EV's as is every major car manufacturer.

So the sound of a V8 along with the 'pleasure' of motoring & motoring 'freedom' will eventually become things of the past.

We are heading towards a generation that want to get into their autonomous EV and via an app tell it where to take them. They can then continue to 'interact' on social media telling everyone about every aspect of their life and commenting on subjects they know little, if anything, about....it's a bright new future !


Colin

Colin

Want V8 sound in a EV - buy a Jag I-Pace

10K for batteries is on the mark, My 28.8kwh worth of LiFepo4's cost me $10,500 , but a Prius only has 8.8kwh .

Do you have something to do with this ?

SEA Electric – SEA…The Future (http://www.sea-electric.com)

I know its old news but nothing on how they are performing ??

SEA kicks off Kings electric vehicles delivery | News (https://www.fullyloaded.com.au/industry-news/1707/sea-kicks-off-kings-electric-vehicles-delivery)


Autonomy aint for me, I won't be buying a Tesla (hmm, unless they bring out a DC 4x4 Ute )

[gromit]

Do you have something to do with this ?

SEA Electric – SEA…The Future (http://www.sea-electric.com)



Yes, installing an anti dock drive away system (stops vehicles leaving a loading dock with a walkie-stacker still in the back !).


Colin

[goingbush]

Electric vehicles to take charge as prices drop and ranges grow - Australian Renewable Energy Agency (https://arena.gov.au/blog/electric-vehicles-take-charge-prices-drop-ranges-grow/)

[JDNSW]

That article has a more realistic time frame than some of the others I have seen. One of the issues that needs to be addressed (and not special to electric as such) is that the standing cost regime for cars (depreciation, registration, insurance) makes it more difficult for most people to own a vehicle that is not capable of fulfilling all their driving tasks - for example, commuting with one person, and towing the boat with all the family at weekends. Some families use two cars, one specialised for each task, but it still means that the weekend vehicle usually spends the week (where it does most mileage) doing tasks where a smaller vehicle would be more suited.

[Mick_Marsh]

Electric vehicles to take charge as prices drop and ranges grow - Australian Renewable Energy Agency (https://arena.gov.au/blog/electric-vehicles-take-charge-prices-drop-ranges-grow/)

From the article:

Australia’s electric vehicle revolution has been slow to take off, with plug-in EVs making up just 0.2 per cent of all new cars sold. In contrast, 29 per cent of all new cars hitting the road in Norway are electric, making the oil-rich country world-leaders for EV uptake.

I reckon I know why. It's got something to do with the relative size of the countries and the intercapital distances we travel.
How long do you think it will take me to drive from Melbourne to Sydney, towing a trailer carrying a motorbike, four people on board, on a forty degree day with the A/C going flat out. In a ICE car, we can leave after breakfast and arrive before dinner.

[goingbush]

From the article:


I reckon I know why. It's got something to do with the relative size of the countries and the intercapital distances we travel.
How long do you think it will take me to drive from Melbourne to Sydney, towing a trailer carrying a motorbike, four people on board, on a forty degree day with the A/C going flat out. In a ICE car, we can leave after breakfast and arrive before dinner.

Everybody knows you can tow a Trailer all the way around Australia , only stopping when you need to eat or ****, so what, thats the ways its been for 70 years , Your not going to be able to do that in 10 -20 years, maybe you should start stockpiling Diesel , its going to be a valuable commodity soon . Never mind Probably be a supply from clandestine Diesel Labs , All good !!

What Australians do & what Australians want does not make any difference, We don't have a motor industry & we import all our Fuel, Got no choice other than to accept whatever gets dumped here from overseas.

[PhilipA]

If you want to see why Norway is a high user of electric cars read this.
Subscribe to read | Financial Times (https://www.ft.com/content/84e54440-3bc4-11e7-821a-6027b8a20f23)

25 % VAT exemption, no tolls etc etc.
What a market distortion.

Regards Philip A
Funny, when I googled the above it let me in.
I googled electric car subsidies Norway
The article is a good summation of Norway's subsidies.

[Mick_Marsh]

Everybody knows you can tow a Trailer all the way around Australia , only stopping when you need to eat or ****, so what, thats the ways its been for 70 years , Your not going to be able to do that in 10 -20 years, maybe you should start stockpiling Diesel , its going to be a valuable commodity soon . Never mind Probably be a supply from clandestine Diesel Labs , All good !!

What Australians do & what Australians want does not make any difference, We don't have a motor industry & we import all our Fuel, Got no choice other than to accept whatever gets dumped here from overseas.
We still have a number of refineries in operation in Australia. Two are still in operation is Vic.
Australia are still pumping oil out of the ground.
We are still heavily reliant on diesel for transport. The trucking industry is growing. The interstate train service you recommended I use is fueled by diesel as are the regional train and bus services.
These will not disappear overnight. I doubt they will disappear in the next twenty years.
Here is an example of the art of prediction:
Petrol to hit $10 a litre by 2018: CSIRO | SBS News (https://www.sbs.com.au/news/petrol-to-hit-10-a-litre-by-2018-csiro)

And and industry that would have flourished had that been true:
Biodiesel: The great crash of Australia's 'fish and chip cooking oil' renewable fuel industry - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-28/why-australia-cooking-oil-biodiesel-market-crashed/8121100)

As long as the industry changes with the market, and not ideology, I think the petrochem industry will be around for many years to come.

[DT-P38]

OH COME ON!?!

If you consider the wasted carbon scrapping an existing vehicle every time a new elec car is put on the road it's a complete enviro disaster, not a solution... and if it's really the right way to head then why doesn't Mr "I'll save the world (but let's all head to Mars just in case too)" Tesla/Musk quit DISRUPTING and start offering elec conversion kits? Cause it's really all about promoting a conspiracy (hence leveraging Nikola Tesla's name), disrupting an existing (very efficient) auto industry and (massively) filling his own pockets along the way. EXACTLY as he did with Ebay/Paypal, and is now also doing with SpaceX.

ELECTRIC CARS WILL COME AND GO ONCE AGAIN - just like they have done before. Automation will die out after it automatically kills enough humans due to glitches and hang ups. Tech is not a real solution - especially to problems that don't really exist... it's all just some nerd and his mates trying to get ahead of the pack for a change.

[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

[Homestar]

Don't hold back Dave, tell us what you really think. 😁😉👍

[goingbush]

OH COME ON!?!

If you consider the wasted carbon scrapping an existing vehicle every time a new elec car is put on the road it's a complete enviro disaster, not a solution... and if it's really the right way to head then why doesn't Mr "I'll save the world (but let's all head to Mars just in case too)" Tesla/Musk quit DISRUPTING and start offering elec conversion kits? Cause it's really all about promoting a conspiracy (hence leveraging Nikola Tesla's name), disrupting an existing (very efficient) auto industry and (massively) filling his own pockets along the way. EXACTLY as he did with Ebay/Paypal, and is now also doing with SpaceX.

ELECTRIC CARS WILL COME AND GO ONCE AGAIN - just like they have done before. Automation will die out after it automatically kills enough humans due to glitches and hang ups. Tech is not a real solution - especially to problems that don't really exist... it's all just some nerd and his mates trying to get ahead of the pack for a change.

[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

Agree 100% with those sentiments, as a side effect Elon Musk is doing a huge favour for others that agree. Providing a viable source of ex- Tesla / EV drive units & batteries perfect for re-powering those existing ICE vehicles.

In reality People don't care for the environment or else we would not be destroying it. Humanity is just going through a phase, one decent solar flare / CME / Carrington event and Tech will be wiped out in the blink of an eye, back to the good old days of Feudalism.

[cjc_td5]

Agree 100% with those sentiments, as a side effect Elon Musk is doing a huge favour for others that agree. Providing a viable source of ex- Tesla / EV drive units & batteries perfect for re-powering those existing ICE vehicles.

In reality People don't care for the environment or else we would not be destroying it. Humanity is just going through a phase, one decent solar flare / CME / Carrington event and Tech will be wiped out in the blink of an eye, back to the good old days of Feudalism.Back to 88" diesels? [emoji4]

[JDNSW]

Minor problem of what you would use as fuel in it - after the fuel distribution system from the oilfield to the tankers, to the refinery, to the road tankers, to the fuel pump have all fallen in a heap because they all depend on vulnerable electronics or on directly affected power distribution.

(And my county would continue to work perfectly well - until the tanks were empty)

[goingbush]

Here you go Mick Marsh ,
Take your Trailer to Sydney & back with A/C on full blast , Recharge almost as fast as filling with petrol.

Another company that won't remain Australian for long.

Australian fast-chargers smash EV "range anxiety" on Autobahn : RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/australian-fast-chargers-smash-ev-range-anxiety-autobahn-38364/)

[Mick_Marsh]

Here you go Mick Marsh ,
Take your Trailer to Sydney & back with A/C on full blast , Recharge almost as fast as filling with petrol.

Another company that won't remain Australian for long.

Australian fast-chargers smash EV "range anxiety" on Autobahn : RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/australian-fast-chargers-smash-ev-range-anxiety-autobahn-38364/)
Nice article.

“Our HPC solutions deliver up to 475kW of power, making them capable of charging EVs in a very short time. And our goal is to bring charging times down even further, ideally to the same time as it would take to fill your tank with petrol,”
Great! So I can drive my EV to Adelaide via Mt Gambier by the coast road, National Highway No.1.

Oh, sadly not.

In Australia – where the electric vehicle market is moving at a glacial pace – Tritium has been slightly less busy.

Although just last month, the company was tapped to supply its Veefil 50kW fast chargers for a $10 million EV fast-charging network being rolled out across New South Wales and the ACT by the NRMA.
Sadly, the news article reports on the 475kW fast EV infrastructure being installed in Europe, not Australia. Not applicable here.
The Australian installed solution is one tenth the size and within one state, NSW. I'm tipping it will probably be centred around the urban areas.

[goingbush]

I concur, and as usual Australia is 20 years behind the rest of the world ( Make that 30 in SA and 50 in Tas)

[Mick_Marsh]

I concur, and as usual Australia is 20 years behind the rest of the world ( Make that 30 in SA and 50 in Tas)
I can hardly wait for what is promised to happen. Electric motors are so much better than an ICE motor in performance, efficiency and construction.
However, so much more development needs to be done in the associated infrastructure and energy storage systems. Personally, I'm a fan of the fuel cell technology. NASA changed from batteries to fuel cells for their spacecraft power back in the Gemini missions.
I don't think it will happen in my lifetime. There is still plenty of oil being pumped and refined. We use so much petrochemical in our daily lives, I don't think it will go away anytime soon.

[Homestar]

Fuel cells have already come and gone as far as domestic units go. A few years ago you could have bought one for your house that would supply all your electricity and hot water from your natual gas supply - a bargain at $35,000! Add to that they were less efficient than a gas fired power station and the maintenance was a nightmare and you have a comany (Bluegen) that went into administration in 2015 and was removed from the asx recently although you can still buy them overseas - BlueGEN Fuel Cell - SOLIDpower (http://www.solidpower.com/en/bluegen/) - with no OEM support here any more, when the stacks need replacement you'd have done your doe.

For that price now you could do a decent off grid system with batteries and solar. 😉

As for vehciles I still think hydrogen fuel cells have merrit but there seems to be a lack of motivation within the industry to go down this path for some reason, even though the tech is proven, hydrogen can be stored safely and it's theoretically 'clean' to produce although I'd like to see the solar farm that would be able to do that on a commersial scale.

[Mick_Marsh]

As for vehciles I still think hydrogen fuel cells have merrit but there seems to be a lack of motivation within the industry to go down this path for some reason, even though the tech is proven, hydrogen can be stored safely and it's theoretically 'clean' to produce although I'd like to see the solar farm that would be able to do that on a commersial scale.
The best hydrogen producing station I saw was powered by a couple of wind turbines and the plant (electrolyser, compressor, etc.) was in a small shipping container.
I have no idea of it's capacity and it only produced when the wind was blowing and water was available.

Headlines in the media:

A new solar and wind hydrogen plant, which has been dubbed the largest in the world, has been proposed for Crystal Brook in South Australia's Mid North.

The Crystal Brook facility will produce up to 400 megawatts of solar and wind power each day, which will power the site's hydrogen 'electrolyser' to potentially produce 20,000 kilograms of hydrogen daily.

Here's an opinion piece:
Energy Voice | OPINION: Hydrogen is really happening - News for the Oil and Gas Sector (https://www.energyvoice.com/otherenergy/175759/hydrogen-is-really-happening/)

[cjc_td5]

What are the energy losses going solar->hydrogen->electricity vs solar->batteries->electricity? Was thinking that hydrogen may be an easier energy medium to store large capacities and transfer between storage vessels?

[JDNSW]

According to Wikipedia production of hydrogen by electrolysis should be around 60% efficient. If the vehicle runs a fuel cell, (currently very, very expensive) efficiency of this would be around 80%, giving an overall efficiency of about 50%. If it runs an ICE (more likely), with an efficiency of perhaps 35%, overall efficiency is around 20%. Compare to an EV with a charge/discharge efficiency of perhaps 80%.

Despite claims to the contrary, hydrogen remains difficult and expensive to store or transport or distribute. It is not generally as dangerous as many think, but that is solely because it disperses very rapidly in the atmosphere because of its low molecular weight. It will permeate through almost anything when under pressure, and is explosive over a very wide range of concentrations, as well as being colourless and odourless. This means that it could disperse widely undetected and then ignite explosively over a wide area.

[Mick_Marsh]

California now has 33 hydrogen fueling stations for 4,200 fuel-cell cars so far (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1116044_california-now-has-33-hydrogen-fueling-stations-for-4200-fuel-cell-cars-so-far)

[Homestar]

Here's a nice addition to the mix.


https://youtu.be/KQ2Eo6wl5r0

[Mick_Marsh]

How does a fuel cell work, and should I buy a hydrogen car? (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/advice/does-fuel-cell-work-should-buy-hydrogen-car/)

From the article:

The new generation of fuel cell cars will go a long way to making hydrogen mainstream; we drove the Hyundai Nexo in London the other day and absolutely loved it. Indeed, the Nexo's claimed 497-mile range (easily twice that of most plug-in battery-electric cars) will impress consumers and alleviate some of the pressure on infrastructure – if you only have to refuel every 500 miles, and it only takes a few minutes, suddenly a fuel cell car is a practical choice rather than an environmental one.

There are plenty of naysayers about fuel-cell technology and you can see them scoffing on the internet, but most are either ignorant or are heavily invested in alternative technologies such as battery vehicles.

[goingbush]

This last spell of cold sub 10c weather I really notice the LiFePo4 cells are not performing too well ,
Maybe needing a charge at 55-60km instead of 80km . (or is it because my new rear diff is a bit tighter ?)

I really thought EV winter range was lower because of the need to use the heater, but I guess thats cancelled out in summer by the A/C

I guess the same as a Lead Acid cranking battery suffers from the cold.

[Mick_Marsh]

I guess the same as a Lead Acid cranking battery suffers from the cold.
Mine doesn't. Those at Winter Wombat the year it got down to -7 degrees will attest to that. The 101 fired up real easily that morning.
I'd suggest your battery was a little past it's use by date.

[weeds]

Cold weather shouldn’t affect a healthy lead acid (well not to the operator hitting the start key as there should be plenty of capacity), I guess with instruments hooked up one might see a slight performance drop

although cold weather does highlight issues with an aging/failing lead acid and dropping performance.

[goingbush]

Whats this all about then ??

Temperature vs. Capacity - Flooded Lead Acid Batteries : Technical Support Desk (http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/5860-temperature-vs-capacity-flooded-lead-acid-batteries)

And here Lithium fares even better than Lead Acid, but really once you engine has started not a thought is given to the Cranking Battery , Bit different in an EV .

lithium & solar power LiFePO4, Capacity vs Temperature (LiFePO4, AGM) The graph... (http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/post/137013474691/capacity-vs-temperature-lifepo4-agm-the-graph)

[Dervish]

YouTube (https://youtu.be/chpy0Yz5eNs)

To put the video into perspective, the Tesla drove over 1000km with the energy equivalent of 8.25L of petrol.

[cjc_td5]

I suppose it makes sense that available battery capacity is reduced in cold temperatures. The same thing happens with your smart phone if you expose it to sub zero temperatures. It will die, but the battery will come back to life when warmed back up again.

[Tombie]

Mine doesn't. Those at Winter Wombat the year it got down to -7 degrees will attest to that. The 101 fired up real easily that morning.
I'd suggest your battery was a little past it's use by date.

Of course it does, they all do! Cold slows the chemical reactions.

It’s just that enough reserve should be in place to handle
It.. Hence CCA - the current capacity at 0f.


LiFePO4 definitely suffer the cold, they come back fine once it warms up - several riders from another board all went LiFePO4 and all those living in cold overnight temp zones (lots of Vic / NSW members) seem to suffer from starting issues when it’s cold.

[JDNSW]

Starting lead acid batteries should have plenty of capacity to start in even the coldest weather we get here - unless the battery or the engine is sick.

But note that if the battery is substantially discharged, it can (rarely) get cold enough for the low S.G. electrolyte to freeze - which will do permanent damage to the battery.

[PhilipA]

From today's Australian.
Jeremy Clarkson cuts to the chase so well.



Jeremy Clarkson (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/Jeremy+Clarkson)


Columnist


https://i1.wp.com/pixel.tcog.cp1.news.com.au/track/component/author/6a53c04ff52759fd63649458d159580d/?esi=true&t_product=the-australian&t_template=s3/austemp-article_common/broadsheet/components/article-author/widget&td_bio=false&td_location=none
The Weekend Australian Magazine
12:00AM November 10, 2018
7 Comments (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/life/weekend-australian-magazine/hyundai-kona/news-story/783a6e6f174a11f9ed581cf639ff6571#story-comments)

The electric car is coming. Be in no doubt about that. We’ve had Teslas for the past 10 years and in the next two every mainstream manufacturer will jump on the bandwagon. I recently borrowed an electric Hyundai Kona, which the company will not be selling in Portugal any time soon. Not with a name like that. But what about elsewhere? If you’re thinking of going pure electric, is this the sort of thing you should be looking at?

Well, let’s get to the problem straight away. There simply aren’t enough public charging points. And if more people start buying electric cars, things will get worse long before they get better.
The Hyundai arrived with no cable that allowed it to be plugged into a simple domestic socket. I’m not surprised. I know someone who did that and his home caught fire. Also, the charging time from a domestic circuit is measurable in weeks. Instead, I was given a cable to plug it into one of the charging stations you see in supermarket car parks and service stations. But I didn’t think I’d need it. I mean, the Kona has a range, Hyundai says, of up to 480km and I was planning a round trip of barely half that.

However, the range-ometer in an electric car is a weird, speculative thing, so after I’d pottered about in London and driven to Oxfordshire it said there was only 210km left. Would this be enough to get back? This is known as range anxiety. It’s a thing with our friends electric.
I didn’t want to take the risk so went to a posh hotel where six charging points are provided. One was broken and another was occupied by a Bentley Bentayga with a personalised registration that I won’t tell you to save the owner embarrassment. In Portugal he might be called a Kona. Eventually, though, I was having some lunch, knowing that the batteries were being topped up nicely, which of course they weren’t. An hour later, only 27km had been added, so I carried on with lunch until I was too drunk to drive the car anyway. Eventually I found someone to take me home in it, and asked him to pop to the supermarket, where the batteries could be fully charged up. He plugged it into the port, which said he must download an app that would let him pay for the electricity. But the app wouldn’t acknowledge the existence of the charging point, and neither would anyone on the number provided. So we had to waste all the power gleaned from the hotel looking for an alternative.
The upshot of all this is that if you buy an electric car at the moment, it will be very expensive and you won’t be able to go anywhere in it with any certainty. One day, if charging points are as reliable and as common as petrol pumps, and top-up times are drastically shorter, you can make the plunge. But now? No. You’d be mad.
And that’s a shame, because the Kona is a likeable little car. It is completely incapable of putting its 395Nm of torque onto the road, which means every time you stand on the throttle it torque-steers like a 1980s Saab Turbo. This is hilarious.
It is also bloody fast. It’s not the 0 to 100km/h time that impresses, it’s the immediacy with which it takes off. One minute you’re doing 60km/h and then you’re doing 600km/h. And the steering wheel has been wrenched from your grip and you’re in hysterics. And a ditch.
It’s good-looking too, and for an electric car in which every joule is precious, it’s very well equipped. My test car even had a heated steering wheel. You’d need a very long lunch to charge that up.
In fact, I loved a lot of the Kona very much. It’s practical, far too powerful, spacious, nicely finished, well specced and handsome.
This, then, is a car that can run. But when it comes to infrastructure, we haven’t learnt to walk yet. So like all electric cars at the moment, it’s completely and utterly useless.
Fast facts Hyundai Kona electric
Engine: Electric motor (150kW/395Nm) Battery: 64kW/h
Transmission: Single-speed, front-wheel drive
Price: About $50,000 (on sale in Australia early 2019)
Rating: 4 out of 5 stars
https://i1.wp.com/pixel.tcog.cp1.news.com.au/track/component/author/6a53c04ff52759fd63649458d159580d/?esi=true&t_product=the-australian&t_template=s3/austemp-article_common/broadsheet/components/article-author/widget&td_bio=true&td_extended=true
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(https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/health/deadline-for-health-funds-to-introduce-new-categories/news-story/38d35789b24e8fcc46e92a738b818814)




(https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/health/deadline-for-health-funds-to-introduce-new-categories/news-story/38d35789b24e8fcc46e92a738b818814)

[goingbush]

OMFG , Clearly this bloke is a complete idiot and has no idea whatsoever.

All Good, Im happy for him and his troglodyte followers to keep lining up at and paying at petrol stations while my car charges for free when i'm sleeping.

[Vern]

I thought it was a good article, pointing the fact that there is not enough infrastructure out there for EV's yet.
So i buy an ev, and can only charge it from home, which at this point in time won't be free. Then what? Theres 1 charging station and thats 20+km in the other direction from where i have to travel.
One day, one day.

[goingbush]

I thought it was a good article, pointing the fact that there is not enough infrastructure out there for EV's yet.
So i buy an ev, and can only charge it from home, which at this point in time won't be free. Then what? Theres 1 charging station and thats 20+km in the other direction from where i have to travel.
One day, one day.

Deal with it or keep buying petrol, your choice.

[bee utey]

I thought it was a good article, pointing the fact that there is not enough infrastructure out there for EV's yet.
So i buy an ev, and can only charge it from home, which at this point in time won't be free. Then what? Theres 1 charging station and thats 20+km in the other direction from where i have to travel.
One day, one day.

The most amazing difference between say, 1910 and now is that the electricity grid reaches to nearly everywhere a passenger car driver wishes to travel to. In 1910, your new fangled petrol car had to buy fuel from chemists shops in gallon tins, so running out was a very real problem then too.

In the 21st century though, you can charge your EV nearly everywhere, simply by plugging it into a power point. Sure it's slow, then again so are many old people. Online directories already exist to find EV friendly businesses who'll let you plug into a handy 3 phase outlet. And of course as EV's sell in greater numbers there will be more public fast chargers installed to get customers into a rest stop to harvest their pennies.

And PhilipA quoting Clarkson on EV's is hilarious, that guy has been caught out lying through his teeth before about EV range. The infamous sketch where he pushed a Tesla off his test track with a seemingly empty battery was complete bunkum, the company reps hopped in at the end of the session and drove it away.

[Vern]

Deal with it or keep buying petrol, your choice.Awesome reply, sounds very troglodyte[emoji6]

[Vern]

The most amazing difference between say, 1910 and now is that the electricity grid reaches to nearly everywhere a passenger car driver wishes to travel to. In 1910, your new fangled petrol car had to buy fuel from chemists shops in gallon tins, so running out was a very real problem then too.

In the 21st century though, you can charge your EV nearly everywhere, simply by plugging it into a power point. Sure it's slow, then again so are many old people. Online directories already exist to find EV friendly businesses who'll let you plug into a handy 3 phase outlet. And of course as EV's sell in greater numbers there will be more public fast chargers installed to get customers into a rest stop to harvest their pennies.

And PhilipA quoting Clarkson on EV's is hilarious, that guy has been caught out lying through his teeth before about EV range. The infamous sketch where he pushed a Tesla off his test track with a seemingly empty battery was complete bunkum, the company reps hopped in at the end of the session and drove it away.Hey i am all for it, but what i was saying, right now, not in the future, there is not enough infrastructure out there for them. I can't just plug my ev in at work, would be good if i could.
I think my next commute will be an EV, but that comes after our off grid house, which is also something i have to add into the equation

[goingbush]

Awesome reply, sounds very troglodyte[emoji6]

fair call, I deserved that !

[PhilipA]

You blokes have to remember that Clarkson is talking about the UK also where EVs are more popular.

Also I recall Clarkson and the little bloke having a race in an EV and conventional car and finding the charging station did not work.
I wonder how common that is? And how long will charging stations last in Blacktown or Dandenong? It is a different world than in the early 20th century. It appears to me that vandalism was much less then, although graffiti goes back to Roman times if the tombs in Egypt are any indication.

On the plus side the new Maccas in Kellyville has 3 AFAIR. So make your trips in Sydney via Kellyville .LOL.
Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

Hey i am all for it, but what i was saying, right now, not in the future, there is not enough infrastructure out there for them. I can't just plug my ev in at work, would be good if i could.
I think my next commute will be an EV, but that comes after our off grid house, which is also something i have to add into the equation

Quite. Mind you, there are so few EV's available for sale right now, it's academic. When more become available (next year, the one after, etc) more charging opportunities will exist. Until then let people for whom EV's are very practical buy up the first examples.

[Vern]

Quite. Mind you, there are so few EV's available for sale right now, it's academic. When more become available (next year, the one after, etc) more charging opportunities will exist. Until then let people for whom EV's are very practical buy up the first examples.Yes, was in at tesla in sydney on tye weekend having a look, was very impressed with the x cross or whatever it was, didn't ask how much though.
Mate has an S type, he loves it and will never go back, but he also owns a thriving solar company and can charge it at his free charging station at his workshop in traralgon.
Once again, thats out of my price range[emoji4]

[bee utey]

You blokes have to remember that Clarkson is talking about the UK also where EVs are more popular.

Also I recall Clarkson and the little bloke having a race in an EV and conventional car and finding the charging station did not work.
I wonder how common that is? And how long will charging stations last in Blacktown or Dandenong? It is a different world than in the early 20th century. It appears to me that vandalism was much less then, although graffiti goes back to Roman times if the tombs in Egypt are any indication.

On the plus side the new Maccas in Kellyville has 3 AFAIR. So make your trips in Sydney via Kellyville .LOL.
Regards Philip A

Look I really enjoyed watching Clarkson back in the Top Gear days, he was a presenter with a real skill in making people laugh at his outrageous antics. However it's always important to understand what his shows were. They were entertainment, not documentaries. Any facts left in the show were scripted in, just as were the lies. It didn't pay to take the guy seriously.

[bee utey]

Another take on what to do when your EV runs out of juice: tow it with the regen braking turned on.

Tesla Model 3 owner gets about 10 miles of range with regen by towing the car over 1 mile - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2018/11/09/tesla-model-3-regen-tow-charging/)

[goingbush]

Another take on what to do when your EV runs out of juice: tow it with the regen braking turned on.

Tesla Model 3 owner gets about 10 miles of range with regen by towing the car over 1 mile - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2018/11/09/tesla-model-3-regen-tow-charging/)

Great tow rope . Using a Smart to charge a Tesla , great thinking !!

Mark French (of Marks 4WD Adaptors fame) was telling me after finishing his Simpson Solar challenge he was waiting at Birdsville for the other team to approach Big Red , He got the message and wanted to drive his EV back to Big Red for the photo op of them both there . No Charge so the hooked the snatch strap to the Support Vehicle a GU with Duramax / Allison , With the Suzi on full regen the GU was really bogging down (on bitumen) , 'was like towing a van with the brakes on ' Fully charged within a few km .

I made a A-Frame for my Lightweight , ties to the helicopter lifting rings , so If I run out of charge any vehicle with a 2" ball can charge me ( I can back off the regen with a knob on my dash)

[DiscoMick]

I just discovered there are 2 EV charging stations within a five minute drive of home. [emoji16]

[goingbush]

I just discovered there are 2 EV charging stations within a five minute drive of home. [emoji16]

Wonder if any Pubs will seize the opportunity and put chargers in for patrons, hmm can you get done for .05 if your asleep in the back and the car is driving you home ? Oh I forgot , Club Mulwala is installing a Solar car park with EV points . Also 5 mins from here. .... " I'll be home in an hour, just waiting for the car to charge"

[DiscoMick]

I notice some American churches have EV charging points.
I guess in the future offering free charging to visit a premises will become like free Wi-Fi is now - a point of difference and an incentive to pick them over a competitor.

[Homestar]

I notice some American churches have EV charging points.
I guess in the future offering free charging to visit a premises will become like free Wi-Fi is now - a point of difference and an incentive to pick them over a competitor.

Yeah, why would you pass up a free charge from somewhere instead of doing it at home (If you don't have solar or batteries) - I'd pick a cafe, etc with a free charging dock over one that didn't - you'd get something back into it while sipping a Late, etc.

I think for the amount of EV's there are currently on the road, there is a good range of charging stations - remember when LPG first came in - you'd be lucky to find one place in a decent sized town that sold it for a couple of years until it started to really gain momentum - I think we'll see the same thing here - the infrastructure will come, so will the cars - I can't wait to see what the likes of Hyundai and Kia come up with.

[101RRS]

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4887/31964392598_9ddd5d0368_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QGzSid)Tesla on a Generator (https://flic.kr/p/QGzSid)

[goingbush]

Heres my Range Extender

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/42121196_1875876842494097_4292180850067374080_o.jp g?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=243de26e675e713ab230029da191b36a&oe=5C842628

[goingbush]

And my charge network is already in place.

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39195287_1825373097544472_7959013705922904064_n.jp g?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=a5dac2845d6110aff525f812f47f2aa8&oe=5C898B5A

[DiscoMick]

Judging from how rapidly the price of electric lawn mowers has fallen ($80 in Aldi), it may not be long before EVs are cheap.

[goingbush]

Judging from how rapidly the price of electric lawn mowers has fallen ($80 in Aldi), it may not be long before EVs are cheap.

yeah , My Victa 80V 21" cut was $850 2 years ago. Batteries are getting cheaper and better !

[Homestar]

I’ve already got a 36 volt chainsaw which I love and an 18 volt line trimmer - next purchase for the garden will be the 36 volt mower that goes with my batteries. About $200 for the mower itself I think - already have a battery and charger. 👍

[goingbush]

I missed out on the 80V Chainsaw skin ( weird how the call them 'skin only' when they don't come with battery & charger) to suit my mower battery so bought a 40V Victa 16" , that saw rocks . Apart from the fact its Electric I love the new chain tensioning control. Bloody fantastic.

This tech didn't come soon enough thats for sure.

[DiscoMick]

The Hyundai Lona EV has a range of up to 480kms.
Hyundai Kona EV - My Electric Car (https://myelectriccar.com.au/hyundai-kona/)

[DiscoMick]

Kona