Confused on measuring suspension height to check if compliant (suspesion/tyres)

[weeds]

Separate to the other thread.......

QLD are reviewing the rules around lifts and tyres........

Sooooo.I figured I would actually put a tape measure over and see how easily I comply.....but one need to know how high the suspension sat when new.


It appears Queensland Transport are working off a database and are checking suspension height from center of wheel to top of wheel arch. I cannot find anywhere in Qld where all the stock heights are listed, I assume they may have contacted each and every manufacturer and they have supplied the figures, it would be god if they published them.

OK, the best I can find is this website Certification Unit Details (http://rvcs.infrastructure.gov.au/pls/wwws/pubrvcs.view_app_details'sCertID=9419&sMakeModel=LAND+ROVER+DEFENDER+4X4) it appears al manufacturers need to get an approval number and part of this is stating unladed and laden heights.

It seems a defender has the following, hopefully the attachment works
560mm Front Unladen (610mm with 50mm lift)
590mm Rear Unladen (640mm with 50mm lift)

and

525mm Front Full Bump
540mm Rear full bump

Centre of wheel, that easy
Top of wheel arch, umm....I assume top of flare? but the measurement don't add up, so i'm guessing its center of wheel arch (yep where the flare connects to) I roughly measured the flare and it about 95mm

My measurements to flare
505mm front with 130 (110HD) springs fitted
525mm rear with air suspension at 46psi

My rough measurements to guard (center of arch opening)
600mm Front with 130 (110HD) springs fitted
620mm Rear with air suspension at 46psi

q. I wonder what full bump means? I know I have way more than 20mm and 15mm bump stop clearance

Q. how do they measure on the side of the road......as they only have unladen and full bump measurements to go off........if I was 'un-laden' than I would be over height

either way I would be in for an interesting discussion as i'm sure they wont miss my rear coils missing

144311

[donh54]

Separate to the other thread.......

QLD are reviewing the rules around lifts and tyres........

Sooooo.I figured I would actually put a tape measure over and see how easily I comply.....but one need to know how high the suspension sat when new.


It appears Queensland Transport are working off a database and are checking suspension height from center of wheel to top of wheel arch. I cannot find anywhere in Qld where all the stock heights are listed, I assume they may have contacted each and every manufacturer and they have supplied the figures, it would be god if they published them.

OK, the best I can find is this website Certification Unit Details (http://rvcs.infrastructure.gov.au/pls/wwws/pubrvcs.view_app_details'sCertID=9419&sMakeModel=LAND+ROVER+DEFENDER+4X4) it appears al manufacturers need to get an approval number and part of this is stating unladed and laden heights.

It seems a defender has the following, hopefully the attachment works
560mm Front Unladen (610mm with 50mm lift)
590mm Rear Unladen (640mm with 50mm lift)

and

525mm Front Full Bump
540mm Rear full bump

Centre of wheel, that easy
Top of wheel arch, umm....I assume top of flare? but the measurement don't add up, so i'm guessing its center of wheel arch (yep where the flare connects to) I roughly measured the flare and it about 95mm

My measurements to flare
505mm front with 130 (110HD) springs fitted
525mm rear with air suspension at 46psi

My rough measurements to guard (center of arch opening)
600mm Front with 130 (110HD) springs fitted
620mm Rear with air suspension at 46psi

q. I wonder what full bump means? I know I have way more than 20mm and 15mm bump stop clearance

Q. how do they measure on the side of the road......as they only have unladen and full bump measurements to go off........if I was 'un-laden' than I would be over height

either way I would be in for an interesting discussion as i'm sure they wont miss my rear coils missing

144311

Would "Full Bump" be the height to the guard minus the bump stop height? All I can think of. [bighmmm]
Also wonder if there are any variations for different configurations - 90/110/130 for instance.
What if it's a tray-back ute?
Seems to me like it's the usual half-cocked setup! Let's rake in some fines, and if anyone doesn't like it, they'll have to take us to court to sort it out! :bat:

[DAMINK]

What a ****ING joke!

Not you Weeds the damn stupid new laws and how quickly they decided to implement it.

People in brand new cars with 2 inches of lift are getting pinged. 2 inches of lift and 2 inch tyres means 3 inches of lift and apparently thats a no no.

Makes me wanna go out and get 37s just out of spite.

[Red90]

And then the Isuzu trucks are lifted from the factory.

[austastar]

Hmmm,
Doesn't affect me, but what happens for air bag suspension? Are they not variable on the move?

Perhaps a "moose test" or some other dynamic trial would be more appropriate?

Cheers

[donh54]

What a ****ING joke!

Not you Weeds the damn stupid new laws and how quickly they decided to implement it.

People in brand new cars with 2 inches of lift are getting pinged. 2 inches of lift and 2 inch tyres means 3 inches of lift and apparently thats a no no.

Makes me wanna go out and get 37s just out of spite.

I think they've managed to convince themselves that any vehicle with ESC will immediately become a deadly missile if you alter wheel size/suspension lift. To my way of thinking, as long as all the wheels are the same rolling diameter (within reason) it shouldn't affect anything, except the speedo reading, and anything relating specifically to that.

[DAMINK]

I think they've managed to convince themselves that any vehicle with ESC will immediately become a deadly missile if you alter wheel size/suspension lift. To my way of thinking, as long as all the wheels are the same rolling diameter (within reason) it shouldn't affect anything, except the speedo reading, and anything relating specifically to that.

Correct me if im wrong, but you could have lets say 2 inches of lift on an ESC model and if you add 1 inch of body lift then that also will get you pinged. Seems very odd and almost a knee jerk reaction rather than any thought out policy.

The 4x4 community needs to strike on mass.

[weeds]

Would "Full Bump" be the height to the guard minus the bump stop height? All I can think of. [bighmmm]
Also wonder if there are any variations for different configurations - 90/110/130 for instance.
What if it's a tray-back ute?
Seems to me like it's the usual half-cocked setup! Let's rake in some fines, and if anyone doesn't like it, they'll have to take us to court to sort it out! :bat:

Nothing will change for my non ESC defender

Re: Full Bump, yes that’s what’s I figure but the numbers don’t add up...

Re: difference between 90/110/130, I only opened the 110 HT pages and there seems to be no different between TDI, TD5 and TDCi in suspension heights

I have no issue with the existing rules just checking that I still comply after my suspension upgrade, the future changes mainly affects ESC cars which I don’t currently own or plan to own.

I’m not sure they are fining drivers on the spot, they get given a timeframe to comply....again I’m happy with that.

The website for national suspension heights is national as each car when realeased in Australia needs a page to itself.....which to me doesn’t look right and I’m guessing guessing this is what each state is looking at.

[weeds]

What a ****ING joke!

Not you Weeds the damn stupid new laws and how quickly they decided to implement it.

People in brand new cars with 2 inches of lift are getting pinged. 2 inches of lift and 2 inch tyres means 3 inches of lift and apparently thats a no no.

Makes me wanna go out and get 37s just out of spite.

Again, I got no issues......the new laws are not in therefor they can only use the old laws which lots don’t comply with...and yep if you have an ESC’d car you need the at least comply with current laws in Queensland.

I think the ones getting pinged are outside the rules....

Brand new cars with 2” suspension lift is OK from what I have researched

Brand new cars with tyre increase I haven’t got my head around with the existing rules......

[weeds]

Hmmm,
Doesn't affect me, but what happens for air bag suspension? Are they not variable on the move?

Perhaps a "moose test" or some other dynamic trial would be more appropriate?

Cheers

I have airbag suspension on the rear which is about the have a blue mod plate fitted.....one of the requirement is that the driver can not adjust while moving.

No sure what the go is with after market suspension rods for discos and range rovers.

[Mick_Marsh]

I think they've managed to convince themselves that any vehicle with ESC will immediately become a deadly missile if you alter wheel size/suspension lift. To my way of thinking, as long as all the wheels are the same rolling diameter (within reason) it shouldn't affect anything, except the speedo reading, and anything relating specifically to that.
Changing tyre size will affect all sorts of dynamics including handling and braking. The big question is, by how much. I don't think the constabulary are qualified to make that judgement but an automotive engineer is. That is probably why the constabulary have cheat sheets of simple maths.

Interestingly, the tread type also affects braking and handling. In the dry, slicks will out perform the big block tread pattern of muddies. The big blocks tend to move around quite a bit. I wonder when they are going to mount a war on tyres?

I reckon we should have a new industry of type test certifications. Each new component should have a certification easily sourced so, when you fit it, you know it's legal. The bureaucrats will be happy because that will give them lots of paper to shuffle.

[Homestar]

The 4x4 community needs to strike on mass.

Um - how exactly? What would it achieve? So we all don't drive our 4x4's for a week or a month? So 20% reduction in traffic while we still pay rego on them. Tradies not being able to make a living while achieving exactly **** all - that's really showing them who's boss...

I would have thought telling your local State member what you thought and why you won't be voting for them would be far more productive.

[weeds]

Can anybody shed light on my non ESC Hard Top.....

1. How do they check unladen heights
2. Full Bump
3. Is the link above the measurement they are working off....oh I had a quick look and it appears 130 HCPU has same suspension heights as a 110HT

[plusnq]

I have airbag suspension on the rear which is about the have a blue mod plate fitted.....one of the requirement is that the driver can not adjust while moving.

No sure what the go is with after market suspension rods for discos and range rovers.


Do do you have to get a mod plate for the airbags Weeds, or is for your own peace of mind?

[AK83]

Don't quote me on this, but my understanding of 'full bump' is when the axle is resting on the bumpstops.

This so called new system is going to be the most unworkable in history:

1/. Just had a quick peek at the RVD1 for example the D2.
According to the RVD1 data, on the rear; centre hub to top of wheel arch is 475mm
RAVE has a spec listing for the D2 measurement; coil spring = 483mm -+15mm, or air spring = 473mm +-15mm

Already we have a discrepancy between the manufacturer data provided and what the govt regs supposedly state!

ie. if someone comes along being a total PITA to check your lifted D2 and they do the measurement and take it as 500mm does this mean your vehicle is lifted by 25mm?
If you go by LR's data, which allows up to 498mm(ie. 483+15mm allowable) as std for the coiler, you're only 2mm above std!!

2/. How do they measure centre of hub to 'top of wheel arch' if it's a ute fitted with a tray?

3/. what if you cut your arches(as can be common) and fit flare extensions(which I presume will still be legal to certain degrees) and the new arch extension is actually lower than the original pre cut std wheel arch height? :confused:

[weeds]

Do do you have to get a mod plate for the airbags Weeds, or is for your own peace of mind?

i'm pretty sure when you remove the coils completely and air-suspension......it requires a mod plate

[weeds]

Don't quote me on this, but my understanding of 'full bump' is when the axle is resting on the bumpstops.

This so called new system is going to be the most unworkable in history:

1/. Just had a quick peek at the RVD1 for example the D2.
According to the RVD1 data, on the rear; centre hub to top of wheel arch is 475mm
RAVE has a spec listing for the D2 measurement; coil spring = 483mm -+15mm, or air spring = 473mm +-15mm

Already we have a discrepancy between the manufacturer data provided and what the govt regs supposedly state!

ie. if someone comes along being a total PITA to check your lifted D2 and they do the measurement and take it as 500mm does this mean your vehicle is lifted by 25mm?
If you go by LR's data, which allows up to 498mm(ie. 483+15mm allowable) as std for the coiler, you're only 2mm above std!!

2/. How do they measure centre of hub to 'top of wheel arch' if it's a ute fitted with a tray?

3/. what if you cut your arches(as can be common) and fit flare extensions(which I presume will still be legal to certain degrees) and the new arch extension is actually lower than the original pre cut std wheel arch height? :confused:

Yes, I agree on bump stop but mines comes no-where near their measurement....

good point about trays, I hadn't thought of that......

didn't realise RAVE had measurements.

[incisor]

did they actually change any laws?

or are the just actually enforcing what was there already?

not that worries any of my vehicles thankfully.

personally i am glad to see someone trying to bring some sort of reason into the equation.

[weeds]

did they actually change any laws?

or are the just actually enforcing what was there already?

not that worries any of my vehicles thankfully.

personally i am glad to see someone trying to bring some sort of reason into the equation.

nope, no change yep, just enforcing the current laws........that's me reading between the lines. agree about making it equal especially although hard to find the exacts around ESC fitted cars

[weeds]

This site is back up and running Road Vehicle Descriptor Online (https://myrta.com/rvd/searchRVD.do'submitValue=start)

Be good if they gave vin ranges....or em I not reason it right.

Either way between tdi and MY07 the measurement seem to be the same.

[AK83]

....

good point about trays, I hadn't thought of that......

didn't realise RAVE had measurements.

If you check the RVD1 data on suspension height for a 'chassis' model of any type it has no data at all for the measurement in question, not front nor rear!
So how do they measure them to know if it's been raised?

I don't have any need for Defender data in general, but I have checked a few bits and bobs on their specs, like steering geometry and stuff like that similar to D1's.
And the only suspension data to the wheel arch measurements I can find are for the D2 rears only. No similar D1 or Defer data is listed.

[weeds]

If you check the RVD1 data on suspension height for a 'chassis' model of any type it has no data at all for the measurement in question, not front nor rear!
So how do they measure them to know if it's been raised?

I don't have any need for Defender data in general, but I have checked a few bits and bobs on their specs, like steering geometry and stuff like that similar to D1's.
And the only suspension data to the wheel arch measurements I can find are for the D2 rears only. No similar D1 or Defer data is listed.

There are plenty of defenders listed and have front and rear suspension measurement. , I haven’t checked 90’s or cab chassis, I did have a look at one HCPU and it had front and rear.

[AK83]

.... I haven’t checked 90’s or cab chassis, I did have a look at one HCPU and it had front and rear.

Yeah, I had a look at some of the cab chassis data

[weeds]

Yeah, I had a look at some of the cab chassis data

be interesting how they measure the rear....although most defers are raised level so if the front fails than no need to measure the rear I guess

[86mud]

Operation Lift by the QLD Police service is specifically targeting lifts on newer dual cabs utes with ESC - i.e. Ford Ranger, Mazda BT50, Nissan Navara, Toyota Hilux. The Police sat through a workshop and received an instruction sheet outlining the factory settings/measurements for this range of vehicles.

I understand that one of the vehicles shown on the TV had a body lift with no mod plate so that is just asking for troublel.

Other makes and models have been pulled over only due to the "look" of the vehicle. I.e an older vehicle on 35" tyres, huge suspension, spot lights everywhere etc.

The police have no idea about factory settings for Defenders and will only target standard things like wide tyres outside guards, and in your experience, a sun shade blocking your view out the back window.

[weeds]

Just found out a work colleague had the Prado defected last week, more the 75mm overall (as the new laws are not in yet.).

[Mick_Marsh]

144373

[Homestar]

Still begs the question that if you take your legal vehicle from another state into Qld does it get defected? Sounds like this has happened already but I'm sure you successfully defend this in court? Maybe we'll have to wait until someone does challenge a defect notice. Wonder if I'd get pulled over in the 101 because it's rolling on 36" rubber... [emoji6]. Would love them to try and find the specs in their little black book on a 101 - and even if they did, find it to be perfectly legal...

Maybe the Ho Hars can run around in one of theirs trolling the highway patrol... [emoji16]

[DAMINK]

All this talk about the QLD issues currently and i just get this email from vicroads.



Introducing Regional Roads Victoria



Regional Roads Victoria (RRV) is a new division of VicRoads, focusing on delivering a safer and smoother road network for regional Victorians.
As a valued myVicRoads account holder, with an interest in what’s happening on the regional road network, we’re keen to keep you updated on regional projects and news that's relevant to you.

Maintenance - making sure our roads are maintained and capable of their purpose
Freight - building more resilient and reliable roads, designed to withstand our freight movement needs
Safety - delivering safety improvements in partnership with Towards Zero aiming to achieve less than 200 deaths on our roads by 2020
Tourism - ensuring safer, well maintained and connected roads encourage tourism to our regional areas
Future planning and economic prosperity - making our roads fit for a growing tourism, agribusiness and innovation economy





Oh dear here we go!!!!

[weeds]

Still begs the question that if you take your legal vehicle from another state into Qld does it get defected? Sounds like this has happened already but I'm sure you successfully defend this in court? Maybe we'll have to wait until someone does challenge a defect notice. Wonder if I'd get pulled over in the 101 because it's rolling on 36" rubber... [emoji6]. Would love them to try and find the specs in their little black book on a 101 - and even if they did, find it to be perfectly legal...

Maybe the Ho Hars can run around in one of theirs trolling the highway patrol... [emoji16]

Pretty sure I read a media release the other day stating interstate cars are OK if they are legal in the state they are registered.

I assume this summary is correct.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180919/4dacdd1eb32ab8c7d16eeb83b2b6ed10.jpg

[debruiser]

I like note 3. NT can self cert to 100mm, only need a wheel alignment as proof. Good idea!

[weeds]

Still begs the question that if you take your legal vehicle from another state into Qld does it get defected? Sounds like this has happened already but I'm sure you successfully defend this in court? Maybe we'll have to wait until someone does challenge a defect notice. Wonder if I'd get pulled over in the 101 because it's rolling on 36" rubber... [emoji6]. Would love them to try and find the specs in their little black book on a 101 - and even if they did, find it to be perfectly legal...

Maybe the Ho Hars can run around in one of theirs trolling the highway patrol... [emoji16]

Operation Lift and Queensland’s suspension and lift laws - The Queensland Cabinet and Ministerial Directory (http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2018/9/12/operation-lift-and-queenslands-suspension-and-lift-laws)

[DAMINK]

UPDATE
Queensland Government confirminterstate vehicles will not be defected
In what has been a rather tumultuous week for Queenslanders and, indeed, just about anyone who would travel into the state for holidays or work with their four-wheel drive, the Queensland Government has confirmed that interstate vehicles will not be defected or fined; despite earlier contradictory statements...

[Homestar]

So, the simplest way for Queenslanders to comply is to get a friends interstate address and register it there. [emoji56]

Wonder if they'll be a spike in registrations in Tweed Heads...

[101 Ron]

Still begs the question that if you take your legal vehicle from another state into Qld does it get defected? Sounds like this has happened already but I'm sure you successfully defend this in court? Maybe we'll have to wait until someone does challenge a defect notice. Wonder if I'd get pulled over in the 101 because it's rolling on 36" rubber... [emoji6]. Would love them to try and find the specs in their little black book on a 101 - and even if they did, find it to be perfectly legal...

Maybe the Ho Hars can run around in one of theirs trolling the highway patrol... [emoji16]

I have looked at this with the 101 Landy.
I am running whats marked on the tyres as 36 inch rubber and in practice appears to be 35 inch on slightly widen wheels.
The standard bar treads are 34 inch and If you run the Michelins commonly fitted by many users world wide over many decades, they work out to be 35 inch.
Factory advertising shows 38 inch low pressure Terra tyres could be fitted as a option on both the 101 Landy and its powered trailer.
The Australian army fitted rubber mud guard fares to comply with Australian road rules.( back in 1980)
If you go for a slightly larger diameter tyre on a 101 and fit them on slightly wider wheels, which are widen to the out side of the vehicle all the scrub angles etc will be the same.
101 wheels can only be widen to the out side any how due interference with a steering ball joint.
I think the 101 would be just too hard if some was to fight it in court.
I could see a 101 landy being singled out because of its high stance and raised look.
In practice the fitting of modern tyres instead of bar treads has improved safety of the vehicle all round.
I can see if the government starts trying to keep all light 4x4s totally standard, everyone who needs to really work a 4x4 for a living or for exploring or for fun will just move into something like a ex army Unimog and it will just upset the greens in govt more and have the opposite effect of what was planed by the govt do gooders and be totally legal.

[GlennMc]

I dont know if this is standard but GMH measure from under wheeel arch down to the bottom of the rim for ride height

[plusnq]

From 4WDQLD

[DiscoMick]

Pat Callinan's Unsealed 4 x 4 has run several reports with lots of details on this.
Interstate vehicles are said to be unaffected, if the Minister can be believed. Appears Gold Coast police have gone a bit feral.
I'm unaffected, but the son is stressing big time about his lifted Hilux, even though the body lift has an engineer's MOD plate.

[DiscoMick]

As I understand it, if it has ESC no body lift at all is allowed, even with an engineer's certificate, as the testing involved in approving a body lift with ESC is very technical and costs up to $20,000. No one in Queensland is currently approved to do it.

[DiscoMick]

I'm told lifts on an ESC vehicle are limited to 50mm suspension and 25mm from tyres - total 75mm - but I can't swear that is totally correct.