DEFENDER designer VS BOLLINGER designer

[timax]

145200145201
Nothing really to say........

[goingbush]

just so as to not confuse the issue, thats Robert Bollinger on the Left . 'nuff said !!

[weeds]

I think Land Rover as making a mistake by not releasing any info.........

Weather or not the Bollinger will make it to Australia as least it has punter and allowing pre-orders.

With such a big delay in Land Rover releasing a ute punters are off finding other solutions.

[Zeros]

I think Land Rover as making a mistake by not releasing any info.........

Weather or not the Bollinger will make it to Australia as least it has punter and allowing pre-orders.

With such a big delay in Land Rover releasing a ute punters are off finding other solutions.

They have been for years anyway Weeds.

But I totally agree. Land Rover should have prioritised the redevelopment of Defender at least 10 years ago. Without it they have ignored their roots and lost significant off road and work vehicle cred.

Instead they’ve focussed entirely in the lilac jacket wearing market and it’s going to come back to bite them, because city slickers don’t really need 4x4 vehicles and the brand will die a slow painful death when the market for big bling SUVs collapses for environmental, fuel economy and other trend related reasons.

The ‘image’ of adventure is for tossers and that’s all Land Rover has been interested in for a long time now. Actually using a vehicle for adventure and fieldwork requires a different kind of vehicle than Land Rover currently make. The next Defender will most likely fill the D4 market, as the D5 became a Range Rover. If they release a ute version it might compete with the booming mid-duty ute sector, but I doubt they’ll be winning any defence, mining or serious bush/desert work contracts because it will be too fancy. In fact it might be farcical to even call it a Defender. They’ll have Mercedes X and G Wagen in their sights, not the real working market.

They should have given Bollinger a job perhaps, because Gerry McFancyduds has no idea.

[goingbush]

Very Well said .

[gromit]

It'll be interesting to see if Ineos comes to fruition.
Ineos Grenadier: prototypes due in 2018 under new engineering deal | Autocar (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ineos-grenadier-prototypes-due-2018-under-new-engineering-deal)


Colin

[goingbush]

Jim Ratcliffe has missed the boat too. He should get on board with Bollinger.

[timax]

There is room for more.
What im liking with Jims idea and Bollinger is that they want to build basic work style trucks rather than spaceships.
I have a real problem with companies like Honda and BMW who seem to think that if its electric then it must look futuristic and have electric blue pinstripes or something. VW on the other hand have it right in that you can buy a Golf in petrol , diesel , electric and in variations but it still just looks like a Golf.

[Zeros]

...so how do I buy a Bollinger B1? Looked their website, but nowhere to sign up!

[gromit]

What im liking with Jims idea and Bollinger is that they want to build basic work style trucks rather than spaceships.


It'll be interesting to see if that approach works financially.
You only have to look at Defender sales towards the end of production to see that there is a limited market.

It'll be interesting to see how (and if) Ineos & Bollinger designs turn into reality. Bollinger looks more like a Land Rover than a Land Rover but they are making low cost panels without having to invest in tooling a bit like Land Rover did back in the 40's ! The 'chassis' in the prototype looked like it would be non-repairable in an accident but, to be fair, it's only a prototype.
It is very much wait & see because reality may be very different to what they are testing right now.

Land Rover have been providing what the current mainstream market needs and have become very successful. They held on to the Defender and I'm sure it would have been a loss-leader for them towards the end. If they now branch off into making work style trucks they compete head on with companies that already have a massive foothold in this market. It may also tarnish their current, and very successful, 'upmarket' image.
It would make more sense for Tata to create another 'brand' to capture the work truck market. The reverse of Toyota creating Lexus and Nissan creating Infinity.

I'm sure these sort of discussions will continue until Ineos, Bollinger or even Land Rover release something we are all happy with. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting........

Colin

[goingbush]

...so how do I buy a Bollinger B1? Looked their website, but nowhere to sign up!

"Reserve" in the menu at the top , they have 20,000 Reservations (as of Oct 6) .

[weeds]

I just had a read of the FAQ....interestingly there is a question about airbags.....and their response was no to fitting airbags as they can/are doing over and above with seatbelts.

Be interesting to see their seat belt arrangement....

[debruiser]

I just had a read of the FAQ....interestingly there is a question about airbags.....and their response was no to fitting airbags as they can/are doing over and above with seatbelts.

Be interesting to see their seat belt arrangement....

Finally a new car without a 1000000000 airbags. If I had money I'd sign up for one.

[weeds]

Finally a new car without a 1000000000 airbags. If I had money I'd sign up for one.

I’m not convinced it will get the green light.....be good if it does for those who find it suitable. Maybe all the current manufacturers are going above and beyond the minimum standard to keep up with the Jones’s.

Given they only offer an electric version it won’t suit my plans for overlanding

[goingbush]

I’m not convinced it will get the green light.....be good if it does for those who find it suitable. Maybe all the current manufacturers are going above and beyond the minimum standard to keep up with the Jones’s.

Given they only offer an electric version it won’t suit my plans for overlanding

I'm sure by the time it hits the market (and I sincerely hope it does ) there will be a solution for overlanding. Battery Tech is evolving fast but I'm not sure Sodium batteries will be market ready by then but micro-turbine range extenders will be.

[cjc_td5]

The concept of no hot exhaust underneath in spinifex country does appeal...

[gromit]

The concept of no hot exhaust underneath in spinifex country does appeal...

Trailer it to spinifex country, use it then trailer it back home ?

I think it's great they are working on the concept but it's a long way off production.
Then there are ADR's to meet, range anxiety to overcome and will the final production vehicle actually be anything like the prototype ?
Finally, as I've mentioned before, is there actually a big enough market for it and at what price ?


Colin

[Arapiles]

I’m not convinced it will get the green light.....be good if it does for those who find it suitable. Maybe all the current manufacturers are going above and beyond the minimum standard to keep up with the Jones’s.


If ADRs require airbags then it won't be saleable in Australia. Bollinger appear to be suggesting that they can meet US standards without airbags, but I suspect that in Australia the airbags are a requirement, not a means to an end.

Re basic stripped out cars, it's long been a theme in car magazines' letters to the editor, and now on-line, that manufacturers should sell stripped out vehicles, with vinyl seats etc. Truth is that they don't sell. In the old days the only people who bought them were nuns, and they're a declining market. In most models now, the top model is the best seller - as an example, we looked at a Pathfinder a couple of years ago and the dealer was telling us that 75% of all Pathfinders they sold were the Ti model, not the ST.

[weeds]

I'm sure by the time it hits the market (and I sincerely hope it does ) there will be a solution for overlanding. Battery Tech is evolving fast but I'm not sure Sodium batteries will be market ready by then but micro-turbine range extenders will be.

Cruising around far Eastern European/Asian countries.....??

[goingbush]

Trailer it to spinifex country, use it then trailer it back home ?

I think it's great they are working on the concept but it's a long way off production.
Then there are ADR's to meet, range anxiety to overcome and will the final production vehicle actually be anything like the prototype ?
Finally, as I've mentioned before, is there actually a big enough market for it and at what price ?


Colin

The market in USA is huge, Pickup crazy there & Teslas are outselling ICE imports , so combine Electric & Pickup , yes they will do well. ADR's are redundant at the close of the Automotive Manufacturing here , My 2013 Iveco does not have a hope in hell of meeting ADR's it was made compliant here on the back of EU certification . Mercedes G has never met ADR's . Imagine its the same with US Imports so long as they are RHD & Bollinger has announce they are also making them for the Australian market but at a later introduction.

[bee utey]

From what I've read the Bollinger will be classed as an actual truck rather than a passenger vehicle so avoids some of the safety requirements.

[auslizard]

Jaguar Land Rover applies for Road Rover name trademark | Autocar (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/jaguar-land-rover-applies-road-rover-name-trademark)

[Zeros]

Jaguar Land Rover applies for Road Rover name trademark | Autocar (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/jaguar-land-rover-applies-road-rover-name-trademark)

I agree. Although it’s nothing new:

145244

[gromit]

ADR's are redundant at the close of the Automotive Manufacturing here

I doubt very much that that's correct.

I'm happy to sit on the sidelines at the moment and see what actually happens. The Bollinger looks cool/retro and a clone of a Land Rover so if it ends up a practical solution for my needs then I may be in the market.
At some point in the future I possibly won't have a choice of getting an ICE powered vehicle but by then I probably won't be driving.......



Colin

[gromit]

I agree. Although it’s nothing new:


The picture you posted was of a Rover car not the Road Rover


https://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/road_rover_60s.jpg


https://x2o9nr2cn82gy9zm-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/roadrover2.jpg


Colin

[goingbush]

I doubt very much that that's correct.

I'm happy to sit on the sidelines at the moment and see what actually happens. The Bollinger looks cool/retro and a clone of a Land Rover so if it ends up a practical solution for my needs then I may be in the market.
At some point in the future I possibly won't have a choice of getting an ICE powered vehicle but by then I probably won't be driving.......



Colin

Well ADR's on older vehicles will still apply , but not on newer imports, because they already don't !!


Nah, you'll be driving Electric ! .... :wheelchair: Mobility Scooters are Electric.

[Zeros]

The picture you posted was of a Rover car not the Road Rover


https://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/road_rover_60s.jpg


https://x2o9nr2cn82gy9zm-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/roadrover2.jpg


Colin

Thanks Colin, strictly true. But any non 4x4 Rover is essentially a road rover. Infact all current Land Rover 4x4s are primarily road rovers.
Cheers

[gromit]

Thanks Colin, strictly true. But any non 4x4 Rover is essentially a road rover. Infact all current Land Rover 4x4s are primarily road rovers.


Interesting point of view but the ones in the pictures they actually called Road Rovers.


Colin

[gromit]

Well ADR's on older vehicles will still apply , but not on newer imports, because they already don't !!




So the Government website is incorrect Australian Design Rules (https://infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/design/)

"The Act requires all road vehicles, whether they are newly manufactured in Australia or are imported as new or second hand vehicles, to comply with the relevant ADRs at the time of manufacture and supply to the Australian market"


Colin

[goingbush]

So the Government website is incorrect Australian Design Rules (https://infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/design/)

"The Act requires all road vehicles, whether they are newly manufactured in Australia or are imported as new or second hand vehicles, to comply with the relevant ADRs at the time of manufacture and supply to the Australian market"


Colin

I cant see anything on there that discredits what Im saying, Fact is the 2013 and onwards Iveco 4x4's are ADR non compliant , and I did read that ADR's wont be a thing on any new imports post 2018 . but darned if I can find it now.

[Zeros]

Interesting point of view but the ones in the pictures they actually called Road Rovers.


Colin

They must have had a premonition. ...the good thing is, if there are four of you travelling in a road rover, it’s easier to push yourselves out of a bog. Infact it wasn’t all that long ago that two wheel drive wagons were the vehicle of choice for desert journeys. So back to the future it is and buy shares in roadside assist / remote towing companies and tow ropes. 🙃

[gromit]

I cant see anything on there that discredits what Im saying, Fact is the 2013 and onwards Iveco 4x4's are ADR non compliant , and I did read that ADR's wont be a thing on any new imports post 2018 . but darned if I can find it now.

Is it just your point of view that the Iveco is non-compliant or a fact ?
I can't imagine the government dropping ADR's just because we don't manufacture vehicles here because it always applied to imports as well.

Just found this Iveco Daily 4x4 light truck (https://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/buyers-guide-heavy-duty/iveco-daily-4wd)


Colin

[gromit]

They must have had a premonition. ...the good thing is, if there are four of you travelling in a road rover, it’s easier to push yourselves out of a bog. Infact it wasn’t all that long ago that two wheel drive wagons were the vehicle of choice for desert journeys. So back to the future it is and buy shares in roadside assist / remote towing companies and tow ropes. 🙃

OK, now you've lost me.......


Colin

[goingbush]

Is it just your point of view that the Iveco is non-compliant or a fact ?
I can't imagine the government dropping ADR's just because we don't manufacture vehicles here because it always applied to imports as well.

Just found this Iveco Daily 4x4 light truck (https://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/buyers-guide-heavy-duty/iveco-daily-4wd)


Colin
Fact is stranger than fiction.

That article is wrong, too many people believe what they are told or read. The vehicle in question is homologised & tested in Europe only. The 2013 release was never tested in Australia & does not meet several ADR's ( the 2016 was tested here but still fails) . Late 2014 I was 'invited' to a meeting with Product manager responsible for bringing the vehicle to Australia in his office at Iveco HQ , to discuss issues I had with the vehicle (or maybe issues that had with me). He admitted the Vehicle was never tested here & is certified on EU compliance. He conceded and promised to fix the brakes, nothing happened with the trucks but he no longer works at Iveco.

The RCVS website stated that it does not meet ADR's , Also it states it has Vented front rotors , infact it does not . The brakes miss on many points , especially there is not a functioning secondary (dual circuit) brake system incase of line fail . If one of the rear lines fail you have no front brakes and vice versa. there is no pressure differential warning , its does not meet ADR's and is Dangerous.

my webpage on the brake issues ... Going Bush (http://goingbush.com/iveco5.html)

RCVS also notes the exhaust outlet position is a fail. Despite these documented ADR issues it road legal here .

Problem is I add vented front rotors I have to go to an Engineer he wants the entire brake system made ADR compliant to blue plate it , even though it wasn't to begin with.

I doubt many recent Euro cars are actually ADR compliant, it seems we have tougher rules than anyone else. But they dont need our drop in an ocean of a market so why make cars meet our tougher regs . they don't.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

wow,, single circuit brakes.. how is that possibly sold anywhere, not just here..

[goingbush]

wow,, single circuit brakes.. how is that possibly sold anywhere, not just here..

They are dual circuit, but there is no reserve in the MasterCylinder Reservoir , that is the fluid is shared , if you lose a rear line ALL the fluid drains out & none left for the front . If you lose a front line the rear don't work, The design is flawed .

Obviously I'm not going to keep that system so I took my MC off and sectioned it . Iveco still say it complies & are doing nothing about it .

I replaced it with a GM MC and converted to diagonal 50-50 split rather than front / rear split.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Silly first post,
This is obviously a pic from the CLOTHING OPTIONS list for the new L660,,
comes with matching luggage naturally,,
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/l660-defender/145201d1539513128-defender-designer-vs-bollinger-designer-screen-shot-2018-10-14-9.27.18-pm.jpg

[gromit]

Fact is stranger than fiction.

That article is wrong, too many people believe what they are told or read. The vehicle in question is homologised & tested in Europe only. The 2013 release was never tested in Australia & does not meet several ADR's ( the 2016 was tested here but still fails) .

I don't understand the situation with ADR's and the Iveco because all vehicles sold/registered in Australia are meant to meet them.
Is the Iveco a Light Truck and therefore circumvents some of the ADR's that apply to cars ?

Some years back we ran a Jap import (Mitsubishi Delica) and it had to have the seatbelts replaced, brake friction materials replaced, all the instructions relating to the seats had to be translated and the engine had a compliance plate attached to be registered in Australia.

When I'm next at the Ford Design Centre I'll ask a contact there and see if he has an insight into the situation.

As to people believing what they are told or read.....where did you read about ADR's not applying to imports after 2018 ?


Colin

[goingbush]

I don't understand the situation with ADR's and the Iveco because all vehicles sold/registered in Australia are meant to meet them.
Is the Iveco a Light Truck and therefore circumvents some of the ADR's that apply to cars ?

Some years back we ran a Jap import (Mitsubishi Delica) and it had to have the seatbelts replaced, brake friction materials replaced, all the instructions relating to the seats had to be translated and the engine had a compliance plate attached to be registered in Australia.

When I'm next at the Ford Design Centre I'll ask a contact there and see if he has an insight into the situation.

As to people believing what they are told or read.....where did you read about ADR's not applying to imports after 2018 ?


Colin

My Daily is registered as a Dual Cab Ute as it stated GVM is 4495 , Some are registered as Light Trucks with a GVM of 5500kg but they are identical & have the same compliance plate , No ADR's are listed on compliance , but nor are the on my wifes car , another late Euro Import , 2017 Renault Captur .

Im struggling to find the govt document, but it was to do with Personal Import Rules changing in 2018 and ADR's being not applicable on EU certified imports.

Here is what another owner has written about the Iveco brakes

Brakes (http://www.manins.net.au/truck_camper/brakes.html)

Also this document tends to suggest ADR's need to apply . (My compliance plate is 37140 )

MOTOR VEHICLE STANDARDS ACT 1989 (http://rvcs.infrastructure.gov.au/AppDoc/24Jul2013200459.HTML)

Not sure what the wheel guards refer to but none of the vehicles sold to this date have a compliant exhaust. (it does not exit at the perimeter of vehicle, but is cut off 600mm forward of the rear axle about 300mm from the centreline of the vehicle. )

Complaints have been lodged with RVCS about the brake fiasco & apparently an investigation is underway.

[gromit]

My Daily is registered as a Dual Cab Ute as it stated GVM is 4495 , Some are registered as Light Trucks with a GVM of 5500kg but they are identical & have the same compliance plate , No ADR's are listed on compliance , but nor are the on my wifes car , another late Euro Import , 2017 Renault Captur .

Im struggling to find the govt document, but it was to do with Personal Import Rules changing in 2018 and ADR's being not applicable on EU certified imports.



I have a meeting booked at Ford in a couple of weeks, not sure if the contacts there will be able to answer the question but I'll ask about ADR's.

The Morgan 3-wheeler (Harley motor) wasn't allowed into Australia a while back because it didn't meet ADR's, I think it was the same with the Ariel Atom (both very different to your vehicle but just making a point).

From what you say above if it meets EU certification maybe it's now an automatic ADR pass....... ?!

Colin

[gromit]

t
I doubt many recent Euro cars are actually ADR compliant, it seems we have tougher rules than anyone else. But they dont need our drop in an ocean of a market so why make cars meet our tougher regs . they don't.

Spoke with a contact at Ford today and it appears all cars still have to meet ADR's as I expected.
8 months of work on the Mustang to meet ADR's before it was imported.

Found out some other interesting facts both at Ford and another Company I visited but probably all common knowledge....
Didn't realise the Evoque was based on the Ford Focus platform. Spoke to my young bloke who works at a dealers and apparently a lot of parts have FoMoCo on them.
Tesla building a Chinese factory planned to open late next year.
Interesting some of the partnerships that are being made between major automotive companies and Chinese companies. Was quite surprised at the cars that are made there right now and then of course, there are the copies.

Hawtai B35 Cayenne copy
Zoyte SR9 Macan copy
Landwind X7 Evoque copy

There's loads of them........


Colin

[goingbush]

Thanks for clearing that up Colin. Apparently there is a bill in progress to amend the ADR legislation.

My son has just bought a Jag E-Pace & also has Ford all over it , no surprise as its on the same Freelander / Evoque platform.

The Jag I pace (Electric version) is on a completely new all Alloy platform. No one seems to know why they called the ICE version the E Pace & the Electric version the I pace .