New Oil Pump

[eddy]

May be worth considering at timing belt replacement time EXTRA 19.5 - oil pump for Land Rover & Range Rover (https://extra19-5.ru/en/) Anyone translate from Russian is that a black eye?

[101RRS]

Why would you bother - an oil pump from a Ford Dealer is less than $170.

[twr7cx]

Why would you bother - an oil pump from a Ford Dealer is less that $170.

I believe because of the claimed ‘up to 50% more oil pressure’ of this version.

Interesting concept. They don’t seem to list a price or where to source from.

[loanrangie]

Currently $182.50 from Ford.

[Dagilmo]

Why would you bother - an oil pump from a Ford Dealer is less than $170.

Is it the same pump with the (claimed) higher pressure and engine relaiablilty benefits?

[loanrangie]

Is it the same pump with the (claimed) higher pressure and engine relaiablilty benefits?

No but do you want to be the guinea pig ? , i have not heard any mention of this improved pump so i would be wanting some first hand experience before fitting one.

[kelvo]

Despite the negative reply’s so far I think it’s a good idea to fit the uprated pump at cambelt change time.
Any increase in oil pressure has to be good. The engine is designed with a maximum 4.5 bar oil pressure, so providing the uprated pump keeps the pressure relief set to 4.5 bar there will be no issues. What’s more interesting is even with the new pump the oil pressure only reaches 4.0 bar @ 3000rpm according to the manufacturers website information, which is higher than the ‘worn’ factory pump but still below pressure relief activation.

There was brief talk on Disco4.com about a group buy for the pump.

[shamirj]

hi all,

I will be shot for this but all the talk about the newer oil pump a necessity for anyone doing timing belts does not translate to most LR indies i know. Had timing belts done twice in two diff D3's over the years and both times at diff LR indies they said its not common to replace standard oil pump, just inspect and only replace if required. Both times original was used again without the need to replace for newer version. Just my experience. They do say its uncommon to change these as in their experience they have never had one fail. I know there are experiences out there where people have had problems but wonder whether the story has been exaggerated and is only a small percentage which have failed at the hands of people doing at home and over tightening the oil pump bolts causing subsequent problems.

[loanrangie]

hi all,

I will be shot for this but all the talk about the newer oil pump a necessity for anyone doing timing belts does not translate to most LR indies i know. Had timing belts done twice in two diff D3's over the years and both times at diff LR indies they said its not common to replace standard oil pump, just inspect and only replace if required. Both times original was used again without the need to replace for newer version. Just my experience. They do say its uncommon to change these as in their experience they have never had one fail. I know there are experiences out there where people have had problems but wonder whether the story has been exaggerated and is only a small percentage which have failed at the hands of people doing at home and over tightening the oil pump bolts causing subsequent problems.


I think there are enough reports of them failing shortly are belt change even from LR workshops so for the $182 for the upgraded pump its not worth the risk.

[101RRS]

Is it the same pump with the (claimed) higher pressure and engine relaiablilty benefits?

I have not ever heard of these engines having low oil pressure issues - seems to be looking for a problem that is not there.

[101RRS]

Despite the negative reply’s so far I think it’s a good idea to fit the uprated pump at cambelt change time.
Any increase in oil pressure has to be good.

Why? If the current pump does the job with no reported failures why do you need to change it and possibly bringing in issues elsewhere in the system.

A solution looking for a problem that is not there.

[kelvo]

Why? If the current pump does the job with no reported failures why do you need to change it and possibly bringing in issues elsewhere in the system.

A solution looking for a problem that is not there.

I can’t believe you are unaware of all the spun main bearings and snapping cranks happening to the V6 Diesel engines worldwide.

While a 100% known reason for the failures has not been established, at least not been made public, low oil pressure is not going to be a good thing for any engine.

If the information on the uprated pump website is correct, should you rather have the engine oil pressure at 1.8 bar or 4.0 bar?

I know I’d want 4.0 bar.

[101RRS]

I think there are enough reports of them failing shortly are belt change even from LR workshops so for the $182 for the upgraded pump its not worth the risk.

I agree - my indies will not change cam belts on engines with the old oil pumps unless they upgraded to the new version. I think most of the Indies that post on this forum are the same. People can put their head in the sand if they want.

Also why did Ford not continue with the older pumps if they were OK? They brought in the new reinforced oil pumps but allocated the same part number as the old unreinforced pump so when the older ones were being replaced the new style pump would always be provided.

Garry

[SeanC]

I can’t believe you are unaware of all the spun main bearings and snapping cranks happening to the V6 Diesel engines worldwide.

While a 100% known reason for the failures has not been established, at least not been made public, low oil pressure is not going to be a good thing for any engine.

If the information on the uprated pump website is correct, should you rather have the engine oil pressure at 1.8 bar or 4.0 bar?

I know I’d want 4.0 bar.

But how reliable is the uprated pump?
0 bar from a failed pump.

[loanrangie]

From the land of Lada's, i dont think so.

[scarry]

But how reliable is the uprated pump?
0 bar from a failed pump.


I wouldn't even dream of not putting in the genuine part,to much risk.

Would it actually reduce bearing failures?

No one would know,and it could cause other issues.

[101RRS]

I can’t believe you are unaware of all the spun main bearings and snapping cranks happening to the V6 Diesel engines worldwide.



Totally aware of these issues but they have nothing to do with low oil pressure - design combined with poor maintenance in most cases.

Can you show me where this is caused by low oil pressure? Links? In fact can you show me where there is a systemic issue with low oil pressure in these issue.

Following your logic, 8 bar would be better, what about 10 or 20 bar - after all more is better rather than what level is appropriate.

[Disco4Dave]

Totally aware of these issues but they have nothing to do with low oil pressure - design combined with poor maintenance in most cases.

Can you show me where this is caused by low oil pressure?
Anecdotal evidence is the crank bearing failure in my 2016 SDV6 last week. The car had 72k kms, and had received oil and filter every 12k kms from new at LR dealer.
About 15 minutes after the engine failed, beside the road, I removed the oil filler cap and used a torch to look inside. It was dry. No sign of oil. I don't expect it to drain that fast.
The car been serviced by LR one week prior, and the dash menu indicated the correct oil level.
I suspect but can't prove an oil pump problem as the root cause.
Replacing the oil pump at same time as timing belt is relatively cheap insurance.

[kelvo]

Totally aware of these issues but they have nothing to do with low oil pressure - design combined with poor maintenance in most cases.

Can you show me where design combined with poor maintenance in most cases is the cause? Links? There are at least three failures that I know of on vehicles with full dealer service records, with one of those having oil and filter changes in between scheduled services. So while poor maintenance is not good these failures are happening to well maintained vehicles.



Can you show me where this is caused by low oil pressure? Links? In fact can you show me where there is a systemic issue with low oil pressure in these issue

I have no proof that low oil pressure is the cause. But failures of components (Crank main bearings and crankshafts) that rely on good lubrication could point to poor or low oil pressure. If the oil pump pressure relief is set for 4.5 bar, as it is with these engines, and the pump is only producing 1.5 bar (Information quoted by the uprated pump supplier) that is only 33% of maximum pressure.




Following your logic, 8 bar would be better, what about 10 or 20 bar - after all more is better rather than what level is appropriate.

Given the oil pump pressure relief is set for 4.5 bar running above this is going to impact oil seals, so running 8, 10 or 20 bar is just a silly comment.

[101RRS]

I did not say all of these failures were the result of poor maintenance but most are or it happens at high kms - yes there are instances of low km and dealer serviced vehicles but these are the minority. The design issue is in the crank itself which is prone to cracking - in the UK forum a guy suffered a broken crank and bought a engine that had been serviceable at the time the vehicle it was in crashed. The engine itself was damaged and could not be used but many of the parts could. When the crank was being readied for installation in the old engine it was xrayed and found that it was already starting to crack even though the engine it had been in was fully serviceable - design and/or build quality is the issue not oil pressure. Likewise the big end bearing shells can move due to poor design (corrected in the later 2.7s) - this is exacerbated by poor oils and high mileage where excessive wear allows the shells to move and block the oil passages and break the crank.

There is no evidence that low oil pressure is the issue as if it were all engines would be failing at low kms.

If you think this Russian oil pump is the bees knees and should be fitted to every engine then go right ahead but one and get it fitted and report back how it goes. Let us know the cost as well.

The standard oil pump pressure is fine - there is no need to change it - what was more important was identifying the design flaw in the housing design where the cam belt component goes and fixing that.

[loanrangie]

If lack of oil pressure was the cause of crank failure then every engine would fail, poor design of the tensioner mount on the pump is the only reason they need to be replaced unless you were doing a full rebuild.

[DazzaTD5]

IMHO...

*Rather than bluntly shooting the OP down, I would have thought a constructive reply such as "interesting thought, although low oil pressure doesnt seem to be the cause of the rubbish Ford engine failures, it may help perhaps".

From where I sit...
*A small percentage fail due to the breaking of the oil pump housing.
*Most don't fail due to a broken crankshaft.
*Most fail are mid mileage engines, as in 160 - 250K.
*Most common failures are 2007 - 2009 models.
*Repeated "upgrades" during the life of the engine series doesnt seem to reflect better reliability.
*I've never changed out this many engines on a model due to failures.

I dont know why people get defensive over an engine that was obviously a rubbish design in the first place.
Lets hope and pray to the engine gods that the later versions were ACTUALLY improved and not just some spin doctoring.
Either way, these engines wont go down in history as having the worst reliability.

Pic below is Ford engineering at its best [tonguewink]

[101RRS]

From where I sit...
*A small percentage fail due to the breaking of the oil pump housing.
*Most don't fail due to a broken crankshaft.


Well what do most fail from then?

[Graeme]

Most failures are seized/spun bearings which sometimes breaks the crankshaft.

[Geedublya]

Most failures are seized/spun bearings which sometimes breaks the crankshaft.

Which could be a lack of oil supply/pressure, poor fitment of bearing shell, problem with bearing material, oil contamination etc.

[PerthDisco]

IMHO...

*Rather than bluntly shooting the OP down, I would have thought a constructive reply such as "interesting thought, although low oil pressure doesnt seem to be the cause of the rubbish Ford engine failures, it may help perhaps".

From where I sit...
*A small percentage fail due to the breaking of the oil pump housing.
*Most don't fail due to a broken crankshaft.
*Most fail are mid mileage engines, as in 160 - 250K.
*Most common failures are 2007 - 2009 models.
*Repeated "upgrades" during the life of the engine series doesnt seem to reflect better reliability.
*I've never changed out this many engines on a model due to failures.

I dont know why people get defensive over an engine that was obviously a rubbish design in the first place.
Lets hope and pray to the engine gods that the later versions were ACTUALLY improved and not just some spin doctoring.
Either way, these engines wont go down in history as having the worst reliability.

Pic below is Ford engineering at its best [tonguewink]

I’m going to hurry up to get to 250k kms. Just clocking 210k now MY08

Hopefully Dazza we never get to meet

[Pippin]

I’m going to hurry up to get to 250k kms. Just clocking 210k now MY08

Hopefully Dazza we never get to meet

Ditto[biggrin]

[Ean Austral]

IMHO...

*Rather than bluntly shooting the OP down, I would have thought a constructive reply such as "interesting thought, although low oil pressure doesnt seem to be the cause of the rubbish Ford engine failures, it may help perhaps".

From where I sit...
*A small percentage fail due to the breaking of the oil pump housing.
*Most don't fail due to a broken crankshaft.
*Most fail are mid mileage engines, as in 160 - 250K.
*Most common failures are 2007 - 2009 models.
*Repeated "upgrades" during the life of the engine series doesnt seem to reflect better reliability.
*I've never changed out this many engines on a model due to failures.

I dont know why people get defensive over an engine that was obviously a rubbish design in the first place.
Lets hope and pray to the engine gods that the later versions were ACTUALLY improved and not just some spin doctoring.
Either way, these engines wont go down in history as having the worst reliability.

Pic below is Ford engineering at its best [tonguewink]

So Dazza , have you found any transplanted territory engines have suffered crank failures due to the same poor build quality of the ford crankshaft ?

I only ask as it seems most transplanted engines are coming from later model territory's and this could indicate that Ford did address the issue. In saying that I still see the odd post about late D4 engines failing due to crank failures so maybe they didn't fix it.

Cheers Ean

[Discodicky]

Most failures are seized/spun bearings which sometimes breaks the crankshaft.

Looking at the photo of the crank/bearings it appears the shells no longer have a locating "tit" to ensure it doesn't spin. Presumably they use some sort of glue to locate the shells which if so is a recipe for potential disaster. If the shells spin in the conrod/cap then it is all over within a few seconds. One wrecked engine is the result. Presumably done for 'cost cutting' reasons and gives me another reason and example why I hate Mechanical Engineers who design motor cars. History shows they have designed some absolutely disastrous engines and vehicles which any good mechanic would have been able to argue at design stage, just why it is a potential disaster.

[scarry]

So Dazza , have you found any transplanted territory engines have suffered crank failures due to the same poor build quality of the ford crankshaft ?

I only ask as it seems most transplanted engines are coming from later model territory's and this could indicate that Ford did address the issue. In saying that I still see the odd post about late D4 engines failing due to crank failures so maybe they didn't fix it.

Cheers Ean

Nothing in google about the Territory having the same issues.

Maybe they modified them,but we will probably never know.

One site did say that Ford used them in the Territory many years after they were used in other brands of vehicles,so the earlier issues were sorted.

[justinc]

I am convinced by the number of engine failures from broken oil pump castings to NEVER leave the old design pump in place. You'd have to be very foolish as a repairer that is TRUSTED by the customer to ensure reliability in their pride and joy, to not insist on fitting the upgraded pump.
Especially since the price seems to have dropped markedly since even last year.

[gavinwibrow]

I am convinced by the number of engine failures from broken oil pump castings to NEVER leave the old design pump in place. You'd have to be very foolish as a repairer that is TRUSTED by the customer to ensure reliability in their pride and joy, to not insist on fitting the upgraded pump.
Especially since the price seems to have dropped markedly since even last year.

Hi Justin. So how do we great unwashed know whether we have old or new style oil pump please?
VIN based maybe (but LR don't have a good record in sticking to that principle) or??

[101RRS]

This is the old oil pump - the one prone to failure
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47984609941_93bea4fef1_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2g7eEM4)Old 7A oil pump housing (https://flic.kr/p/2g7eEM4)

This is the newer oil pump.
https://live.staticflickr.com/4535/38098764696_e4d09d650c_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/213E8po)20161005_1612181_zpsyopa4xk3 (https://flic.kr/p/213E8po)

Note there is no reinforcing around the top of the housing where the flat machined face is.

Notice on the bottom pic there is reinforcing between this face and the bolt holes.

Garry

[justinc]

I cannot remember the actual VIN range, however as a general rule any 2.7 manufactured up until end of 2008, is suspect. I believe all 2009 on were fitted with upgraded pump. I always quote on it for 2009 models, if you don't need it then don't fit it😊

[Eric SDV6SE]

From the land of Lada's, i dont think so.
Remember these guys were the first in space, so I believe they know a thing or two about engineering.

LR is popular in Russia too.

I guess everyone wants to be first to be second. One way to check their claim would be if anyone got some real-time diagnostic tool oil pressure readings at the 3 rpm points as mentioned on the Extra 19.5 pump site on a D4 with around 200,000kms and see what the pump is doing. If I had a code reader I would be checking (D4 SDV6 SE with 189960km...)

[loanrangie]

Remember these guys were the first in space, so I believe they know a thing or two about engineering.

LR is popular in Russia too.

I guess everyone wants to be first to be second. One way to check their claim would be if anyone got some real-time diagnostic tool oil pressure readings at the 3 rpm points as mentioned on the Extra 19.5 pump site on a D4 with around 200,000kms and see what the pump is doing. If I had a code reader I would be checking (D4 SDV6 SE with 189960km...)And yet they built the Lada so not all is engineered properly, can't find any reference to anyone that has fitted one .

[BradC]

another reason and example why I hate Mechanical Engineers who design motor cars.

Don't be so quick to blame the Engineers. The father of one of my school mates is a Mechanical Engineer (and he's done some awesome work since).

His first job after emigrating from NZ was to design the heater assembly for the new (at the time) Torana. He told me he designed an effective unit which was cheap to manufacture, met all the defined specifications and would for all intents and purposes last the life of the vehicle. He was instructed (in writing - he still has the letter) to re-design the heater core to ensure most of them lasted beyond the warranty period, but not much.

Even back then the bean counters had a good reign on the engineering.

[BradC]

This is the old oil pump - the one prone to failure
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47984609941_93bea4fef1_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2g7eEM4)Old 7A oil pump housing (https://flic.kr/p/2g7eEM4)



Random questions never having examined this (got a new one fitted while something else was going on in there before I took over the maintenance myself).

How long is that bolt? If you over-torqued it could it stretch far enough to push on the block?

[Eric SDV6SE]

Random questions never having examined this (got a new one fitted while something else was going on in there before I took over the maintenance myself).

How long is that bolt? If you over-torqued it could it stretch far enough to push on the block?
I is anything like the HPFP bolts then it’s made of unobtainium , 14’ long and done up to 10000Nm using an M8.5 whitworth spanner.[bigrolf]

[Eric SDV6SE]

This is the old oil pump - the one prone to failure
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47984609941_93bea4fef1_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2g7eEM4)Old 7A oil pump housing (https://flic.kr/p/2g7eEM4)

This is the newer oil pump.
https://live.staticflickr.com/4535/38098764696_e4d09d650c_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/213E8po)20161005_1612181_zpsyopa4xk3 (https://flic.kr/p/213E8po)

Note there is no reinforcing around the top of the housing where the flat machined face is.

Notice on the bottom pic there is reinforcing between this face and the bolt holes.

Garry
I understand this is the pump for the TDV6 2.7, does the 3.0SDV6 have a similar pump or the already stiffened design?

I for one one would like to know what the running oil pressures are, approaching 200K kms on the original oil pump....

[101RRS]

I understand this is the pump for the TDV6 2.7, does the 3.0SDV6 have a similar pump or the already stiffened design?

I for one one would like to know what the running oil pressures are, approaching 200K kms on the original oil pump....

The oil pump housing failure issue was only a 2.7 issue - mainly MY07/08 (approx build mid 06 to mid 08) but earlier also do fail from time to time.

[PerthDisco]

Is this the actual oil pump or the oil pump cover?

Mine was replaced with water pump at time of timing belt change and was the old dodgy variety originally. MY08 model.

That was done in about 2014 so that’s coming up again in next year or two.

[101RRS]

It is the oil pump - all one component - comprises the actual pump itself, the housing and seals etc.

[DazzaTD5]

So Dazza , have you found any transplanted territory engines have suffered crank failures due to the same poor build quality of the ford crankshaft ?

I only ask as it seems most transplanted engines are coming from later model territory's and this could indicate that Ford did address the issue. In saying that I still see the odd post about late D4 engines failing due to crank failures so maybe they didn't fix it.

Cheers Ean

Absolutely spot on there with your thoughts and a dam valid question.

*Did Ford with their "on the fly engineering" (as in fix it as you go) did they actually finally sort this issue.
*Ive not found any info on the 2.7lt failing in a Territory.
*Two Ford mechanics I know have never heard of a territory engine failing.
*I use 2014 - 2016 spec engines, in the hope that all has been sorted. (2011 onwards is when the 2.7lt was available in the Territory).

[DazzaTD5]

And yet they built the Lada so not all is engineered properly, can't find any reference to anyone that has fitted one .

re lada, It was actually a Fiat design, I believe Fiat even built one of the factories in the old Russia.

Its down fall was build quality (we all know about that right, dont we?).

[DazzaTD5]

Well what do most fail from then?

Most that I see are just like the pic I posted, spun bearings by the look.
You will likely find that the crankshaft breakage is a end result of the above issue.

[loanrangie]

Few months back a bloke was selling an ex Territory TDV6 in pieces on gumtree but no idea how or why it failed.

[DazzaTD5]

Just back on the Oil Pump thing...IMHO

*The original oil pump assembly had a housing that wasnt moron proof.
*The timing belt tensioner retaining bolt, bolts to the oil pump housing and is a small 10mm bolt with a torque setting of 25NM (from memory).
*As pretty well all oil pump housing failures I have seen have been "just" after the timing belt was changed, I suspect the retaining bolt for the timing belt tensioner has been well over torqued past spec.
*How does a "professional" stuff this up?
*I suspect the torque wrench being used is likely a large 1/2 drive more suited to do head bolts on a truck rather than a small 10mm bolt in a alloy housing.
*You would be surprised at how many mechanics that are just wages slaves (no offense intended) that dont have a good quality torque wrench, a number of torque wrenches, or none at all.
*Often its the workshop that has a shop wrench everyone uses, they also may have a cheap branded one at that.
*Using a large 1/2 drive click style torque wrench is overkill for a small 10mm bolt and torque settings will be well exceeded.

The pic below: top torque wrench is a 1/2 drive "click" style that has a max torque of round 400NM, well suited for doing head bolts on an old engine.
The bottom torque wrench is a 3/8 drive (smaller) is digital, has progressive LED on the side and sound. Its has the finesse and fine accuracy needed for such a job as timing belts.

[Geedublya]

Just back on the Oil Pump thing...IMHO

*The original oil pump assembly had a housing that wasnt moron proof.
*The timing belt tensioner retaining bolt, bolts to the oil pump housing and is a small 10mm bolt with a torque setting of 25NM (from memory).
*As pretty well all oil pump housing failures I have seen have been "just" after the timing belt was changed, I suspect the retaining bolt for the timing belt tensioner has been well over torqued past spec.
*How does a "professional" stuff this up?
*I suspect the torque wrench being used is likely a large 1/2 drive more suited to do head bolts on a truck rather than a small 10mm bolt in a alloy housing.
*You would be surprised at how many mechanics that are just wages slaves (no offense intended) that dont have a good quality torque wrench, a number of torque wrenches, or none at all.
*Often its the workshop that has a shop wrench everyone uses, they also may have a cheap branded one at that.
*Using a large 1/2 drive click style torque wrench is overkill for a small 10mm bolt and torque settings will be well exceeded.

The pic below: top torque wrench is a 1/2 drive "click" style that has a max torque of round 400NM, well suited for doing head bolts on an old engine.
The bottom torque wrench is a 3/8 drive (smaller) is digital, has progressive LED on the side and sound. Its has the finesse and fine accuracy needed for such a job as timing belts.

In addition torque wrenches are grossly inaccurate at the lower end of their range. If mechanics are using high range wrenches on small low range bolts they will be overtightened. From what I have seen a lot of workshop mechanics mostly don't torque things to spec. they just use smaller or larger battery impact drivers depending on bolt size.
I'm only a home mechanic but I own 6 torque wrenches. My largest is 3/4" drive with a maximum of 450nm and the smallest is 3/8" drive with a max of 17nm. I have such a wide range because I work my cars and my bikes, some of my bike suspension has 6mm threads on an alloy shaft which is very easily damaged.

[101RRS]

*As pretty well all oil pump housing failures I have seen have been "just" after the timing belt was changed, I suspect the retaining bolt for the timing belt tensioner has been well over torqued past spec.


Across a range of forums this also seems to be the prevailing view as well BUT there was was design issue without lack of reinforcing. There is almost no evidence of oil pump housing failures before the first cam belt change - ie the setup from the factory seems OK. There is heaps of evidence of the oil pump housing failures after the first cam belt change - usually within 20,000km.

Now as a customer we should be able to rely on our mechanics to do the job right but clearly that is not the case in some cases - however to be fair there is clearly a design issue as PSA/Ford changed the design of the housing by putting the reinforcing in and kept the old part number - also 05/06MY oil pumps generally do not fail after a cam belt change (some have), there must have been a change for 07/08MY as this is is where most failures occur and was fixed for 09MY on (MYs are approximate only).

Another aspect is that the new LR oil pump costs in the vicinity of $430 where the Ford oil pump costs around $180 and they are exactly te same part. I am sure some LR parts suppliers are buying their stock from Ford at Ford trade prices and then selling them at LR retail.