When is the EPB applied?

[Aussie Jeepster]

I was looking at a few past and recent threads on the EPB, and, touch wood, I've not had issues (yet!)
But I seem to recall comments made in the past that whenever the car is put into Park, the EPB is applied.
Then I've read threads that it isn't!!!!
I hardly use mine for anything unless it is a steep hill, and I never use it in the "drive off" mode.
Does anyone know for sure how this thing works, and does it do any secret applying when we don't expect it.
Just curious.
Alan

[101RRS]

You haven't said what model - so I assume the one in your signature.

In that vintage the EPB does not come on when you go into park - you manually have to do it - the same as any old car.

I believe that in later models (D4?) the park brakes does come on.

Garry

[Parso]

Hi Alan. My understanding is that in an auto it is only coming on when you apply it (that's how my 05 auto works).The manuals (I believe) can come on automatically as part of a hill start drive off mode.
The previous owner of mine never used it or maintained it which lead to it seizing within 4 hours of me buying the car.
I replaced it and service every now and again with no issues. Bodsys brake bible is great for how tos and to let you know how to give it a quick (15 minute) adjust.
If you're an irregular user I'd recommend watching a video on how to manually release should it ever jam on you. The tools are all in the back and it takes 30 seconds once you know what to pull.
Didn't really answer your question but after my run it's one of the few things on this car I'm up on.

[BradC]

The manuals (I believe) can come on automatically as part of a hill start drive off mode.

Comes on when you take the key out unless you hold the switch down as you remove the key.

I've only forgotten to take it off once, and the drive-off function was quite noticeable. With a car that heavy you don't need to use it for a hill start. You have about a fortnight from the time you get off the brake until the time you get off the clutch before it starts rolling backwards.

[Aussie Jeepster]

You haven't said what model - so I assume the one in your signature.

In that vintage the EPB does not come on when you go into park - you manually have to do it - the same as any old car.

I believe that in later models (D4?) the park brakes does come on.

Garry
Oops, sorry - yes, D3 Auto.

[twr7cx]

Our MY12 D4 doesn't automatically apply the EPB when putting the vehicle in park. I know this because our switch was recently faulty and would not disengaged the EPB so the vehicle was driven for a week and a bit without using the EPB (because of the complications in disengaging it). It was still parked in Park on the flat and this did not engage the EPB. New switch and it's fully functional again but highlights the issue someone will experience one day when they have the same fault but in a later model that automatically applies it...

[Eric SDV6SE]

MY11 D4 have to lift the button to engage, regardless whether in gear or park. 6spd auto box. Only automatically disengages "drive away function" but that puts excessive wear and tear on what is the park brake.

I always stop the car, put it in neutral and access height, apply the park brake, release the footbrake pedal, then put it in park and turn off engine. This prevents the transmission clutch plates being preloaded. The EPB is more than capable to hold the car on an incline.

[LRD414]

I believe that in later models (D4?) the park brakes does come on.
This is correct but not until the last year or two.
Mine is an MY14 and the EPB does not apply automatically.

Scott

[rocket rod]

Mine is a MY16 D4 and EPB does not set automatically, which is good because it's currently stuffed and hasn't been used for months. What does happen is it goes into Park when you turn the car off if it's in another gear.

[Dagilmo]

Mine is a MY16 D4 and EPB does not set automatically, which is good because it's currently stuffed and hasn't been used for months. What does happen is it goes into Park when you turn the car off if it's in another gear.

X2 for above. Possibly the MY16.5?

[ATH]

Mine is a June 2016 (bought new November) and as far as I know it doesn't apply automatically. I never use the drive through crap and always apply it then select neutral, foot off brake to allow it to rest on the brake and then into park.
But it still crapped itself recently but being under warranty it was fixed by the stealer with no hassles. New drums, pads and electronic bits as far as I know.
Just another bit of "technology" I personally could do with out.
AlanH.

[DiscoJeffster]

Mine is a June 2016 (bought new November) and as far as I know it doesn't apply automatically. I never use the drive through crap and always apply it then select neutral, foot off brake to allow it to rest on the brake and then into park.
But it still crapped itself recently but being under warranty it was fixed by the stealer with no hassles. New drums, pads and electronic bits as far as I know.
Just another bit of "technology" I personally could do with out.
AlanH.

For the life of me I don’t know we bothered to progress beyond the horse? Where would you like to limit your technology to? No progress beyond 1920? 40?

To suggest that this technology is bad and we shouldn’t have bothered would see no progress ever. To suggest we should improve this but not that defies progress. We learn from all progress and pivot based on knowledge and experience. The discovery electronic handbrake woes will lead to a perfected system one day. If you suggest they shouldn’t have done that then we can run through every single service in the car and argue they should have left it alone. We could then all drive ‘79 series Toyota’s.

[Markus1]

I demand my old falcon back. The old girls handbrake worked perfectly and the head gasket blew every 90k on the clock. ;)

[DiscoJeffster]

I demand my old falcon back. The old girls handbrake worked perfectly and the head gasket blew every 90k on the clock. ;)

I do miss a good old handbrake turn [emoji2]

[LRD414]

I have not read one example of a failed EPB that had actually been maintained properly, ie regularly cleaned and adjusted as per the service manual. I know of a few switch failures but EPB unit or brake failures are dominated by a simple lack of attention. Mine has never had an issue in close on 5 years so far.

Scott

[DiscoJeffster]

I have not read one example of a failed EPB that had actually been maintained properly, ie regularly cleaned and adjusted as per the service manual. I know of a few switch failures but EPB unit or brake failures are dominated by a simple lack of attention. Mine has never had an issue in close on 5 years so far.

Scott

Absolutely. Same here. I maintain it annually, never an issue. For those who use stealers and have this issue, they should be questioning their choice of service agent

[Eric SDV6SE]

I have not read one example of a failed EPB that had actually been maintained properly, ie regularly cleaned and adjusted as per the service manual. I know of a few switch failures but EPB unit or brake failures are dominated by a simple lack of attention. Mine has never had an issue in close on 5 years so far.

Scott

+1

[ATH]

The EPB itself is not what I don't like, it's the silly drive through function. Are drivers to lazy to raise/lower a switch these days? I really don't see it improving mankind at all or driver ability. :)
As to the servicing, the stealer has never suggested it hadn't been adjusted, just that the module failed. Cars only done 56K and the drive through never used so should be very little wear I would have thought.
I'll stay a Luddite where that sort of "technological advance" is concerned thanks.
AlanH.

[Aussie Jeepster]

I have not read one example of a failed EPB that had actually been maintained properly, ie regularly cleaned and adjusted as per the service manual. I know of a few switch failures but EPB unit or brake failures are dominated by a simple lack of attention. Mine has never had an issue in close on 5 years so far.

Scott
My Indie in Adelaide checks it every service, but there is obviously a range of opinions on its use/usefulness!!!!
Great discussion.

[twr7cx]

For the life of me I don’t know we bothered to progress beyond the horse? Where would you like to limit your technology to? No progress beyond 1920? 40?

To suggest that this technology is bad and we shouldn’t have bothered would see no progress ever. To suggest we should improve this but not that defies progress. We learn from all progress and pivot based on knowledge and experience. The discovery electronic handbrake woes will lead to a perfected system one day. If you suggest they shouldn’t have done that then we can run through every single service in the car and argue they should have left it alone. We could then all drive ‘79 series Toyota’s.

Your point is lost on me. Yes, the new technology is all great and such but it’s reliability levels are much reduced while costs and maintenance much increased. The old lever action hand brakes worked well, my D2a is at nearly 300,000km without fault on it in that time. Compared to our D4 which has **** the EPB switch at 150k km and had regular maintenance (at Land Rover Melbourne dealer it’s whole life) and adjustment on the setup. It’s not that the new technology is bad in itself, the implementation of it which results in later issues and headaches is the complaint. Maybe it’s poor manufacturing, rushed designs, what ever but it’s clearly an identifiable issue which is what ATH was referring to. In this particular case I completely agree with them and cannot see what added benefit the EPB has provided that make it worth the additional costs and hassles.

Another example is the door locks - all four side doors actuator mechanisms have now been replaced in our MY12 D4 at 150k km (this is common for D3, D4 and the other various LR using the same part). Again our D2a at nearly 300,000km hasn’t had a single unit failed yet. Both systems work wirelessly to unlock the doors at the press of the button but the D4 has a much more expensive and complex setup which fails prematurely - yet I cannot see what improvement it has over the older setup in use?

Now before some smartie comes back with ‘why don’t you get rid of the D4 and get another D2 then if they’re so much better’, this is clearly not my point. The D4 is superior in many ways and has some huge improvements, but the EPB system is not one of them. A hand brake system that requires striping down and cleaning after 50kms of mud driving doesn’t have a place on a 4WD. LR made some great improvements, but they also broke some things that were working...

[theelms66]

The biggest plus for me with EPB is the ability to apply the park brake and not have the cook come to me later and say "get off your butt and release the handbrake so I can go shopping " as I've pulled it too tight.

[loanrangie]

The biggest plus for me with EPB is the ability to apply the park brake and not have the cook come to me later and say "get off your butt and release the handbrake so I can go shopping " as I've pulled it too tight.When my dad bought a brand new 84 range when the 5spd was released I would have to reverse it up our steep driveway for mum, she couldn't release the handbrake or find reverse.

[Eric SDV6SE]

Has anyone tested the EPB as an emergency brake ? Apparently pulling up on the lever at 60 or 80kmh should see the car stop in a straight line using ABS in a very short distance. I haven't tried it but it would definitely bed the brakes in I would imagine...

[LRD414]

Has anyone tested the EPB as an emergency brake ? Apparently pulling up on the lever at 60 or 80kmh should see the car stop in a straight line using ABS in a very short distance. I haven't tried it but it would definitely bed the brakes in I would imagine...

Yes done it and it works well. It's not actually using the EPB in that situation but rather holding the EPB switch is triggering emergency braking solely through the ABS.

Scott

[LRD414]

When my dad bought a brand new 84 range when the 5spd was released I would have to reverse it up our steep driveway for mum, she couldn't release the handbrake or find reverse.
I always carried a house brick under the seat of my 77 RRC the hand brake was that bad.

[Eric SDV6SE]

Thanks Scott, that's what I thought, the EPB acts as the trigger switch to activate ABS and stop the car.

Try doing that in a std cable handbrake car - I dont think so Tim.

Neat bit of tech that EPB

[Plane Fixer]

I have done it at 100kmh on a wide gravel road. I buried my foot and was accelerating and asked the wife to pull it up and hold it there. The car pulled up straight and cut the accelerator as well. This gave both of us confidence in the car such as if the driver had a medical episode the passenger could control the car with the EPB.

[DiscoJeffster]

To say we are ok with the reliable technology advances such as power steering, fuel injection and the like but then say I don’t like x y z because it’s not been reliable .....
I can argue you don’t need power steering , fuel injection, even locks!
If they all work fine you’re happy with technology but if they’re a bit V1 everyone moans.

[Dagilmo]

I have done it at 100kmh on a wide gravel road. I buried my foot and was accelerating and asked the wife to pull it up and hold it there. The car pulled up straight and cut the accelerator as well. This gave both of us confidence in the car such as if the driver had a medical episode the passenger could control the car with the EPB.

Did it at 80 km/h on a narrow gravel road. Hands off the wheel. Pulls up straight. Quite an experience!

[DiscoJeffster]

Did it at 80 km/h on a narrow gravel road. Hands off the wheel. Pulls up straight. Quite an experience!

To be fair it’s not like pulling up a handbrake of old where inevitably one locks before the other and you skew off the road sideways.

I still remember my g/f having a fight with me, going nuts, driving like a lunatic and going through a stop sign. The handbrake I pulled saved us as I pulled it from the passenger seat and the skew of the brake sent us right and onto the next road rather than into the tree. Luck as it would have it. She was a feisty one.

[twr7cx]

Thanks Scott, that's what I thought, the EPB acts as the trigger switch to activate ABS and stop the car.

Try doing that in a std cable handbrake car - I dont think so Tim.

Neat bit of tech that EPB


This gave both of us confidence in the car such as if the driver had a medical episode the passenger could control the car with the EPB.

It is a very very clever bit of tech and coding there, but how practical is it really - in order to be effective it relies on many things - 1. actually having a passenger in the vehicle (99% of my km's I'm solo), 2. the passenger being able to access it (when I have a passenger it's usually only my 16 month old passenger who wouldn't be able to or my dog), 3. passenger actually knowing about the system and using it. For most of us all three aligning are going to be very rare. But it is still a cool idea.



To say we are ok with the reliable technology advances such as power steering, fuel injection and the like but then say I don’t like x y z because it’s not been reliable .....
I can argue you don’t need power steering , fuel injection, even locks!
If they all work fine you’re happy with technology but if they’re a bit V1 everyone moans.

You can argue with me that we don't need power steering, fuel injection, even locks and I won't argue back because I haven't claimed that we do.
I'm baffled by your acceptance for vehicle technology being unreliable and that's just ok. If we push that a bit further so if you get a builder to build your house, and it's the first they've done, then it falls down, that's ok because it was V1?
I guess we will just have to disagree here as if I was signing up to buy a vehicle to be the tester for premature technology developments then I would have wanted to know up front not sold it as a developed technology.

[DiscoJeffster]

You I'm baffled by your acceptance for vehicle technology being unreliable and that's just ok. If we push that a bit further so if you get a builder to build your house, and it's the first they've done, then it falls down, that's ok because it was V1?
I guess we will just have to disagree here as if I was signing up to buy a vehicle to be the tester for premature technology developments then I would have wanted to know up front not sold it as a developed technology.

Asbestos was fine, then it killed us. Cigarettes were fine, then they killed us. Leaded fuel was fine, then it kills us.

The EPB design was fine, but they expected people to service them to be effective. If only their dealer network did.

My point is that with the best intentions, everything new is beta even went it’s generally available. This is why it’s best to avoid being first to buy the new model. You can do as many tests as you like with automation and test miles, but the real world is the best test for a new product.

My comment was in reference to the statement of “I don’t know why we have an electronic park brake when the old one worked fine”. My point was where do you stop with tech? And if we had have said this is ok, we don’t need change, would we ever have got off a horse, developed fuel injection, and all the other technology we expect these days.

And no, the builder needs to rectify the house just like LR will fix a handbrake under warranty. If I wanted to be sure my house wouldn’t fall down I’d build with a respectable builder. Is LR a respectable builder of cars? Yes. Reliable? Less so, but they will build me something very few others can, so I tolerate the need to patch the cracks in the plaster.

[101RRS]

I am of the view that the EPB is tech for the sake of technology - the actuator is clearly the weak link with its plastic gears that strip easily being a poor design. Also given that they do strip easily the inability to easily change the gears or even remove the actuator is not a great design.

Now it is not as if space is tight etc - there is a cable that still runs from the center console all the way back so really other than not having a handbrake lever there is little saving.

The other aspect is that the "emergency brake" on a vehicle is supposed to be an autonomous system from the main brake system so if the main brake system fails you still have an emergency brake. As the emergency side activates the main brakes, what happens in the unlikely event that the main brakes have actually failed? I am assuming that when you pull on the EPB at 80kph as well as activating the main brakes - the handbrake still does activate on the rear drums - but I have never seen any discussion on this aspect.

Having said all that - my 12yo RRS has covered 170,000km on and offroad and has never had the EPB serviced. I use it only if needed, and never use the drive through function. Is only cleaning has been driving through nice clean flowing creeks. I think this highlights the hit and miss design of the EPB.

Also on the issue of tech for the sake of tech - I believe that with later versions of the D4 the gear lever was replaced with a gear change knob - due to customers disliking this I have heard 2020 LR/RR models will be going back to gear levers - a bit like instruments - digital better communicates information but analogue style (even if digital) is preferred.

Garry

[scarry]

The EPB is one of the few things on the D4 i could do without.

The switch on the centre console of ours, played up intermittently,not only is it an absolute PITA to replace,particularly if you haven't changed one before,but the hand brake won't work at all,when this happens.

Not much fun when the van is hooked up and no park brake at all[bigsad][bigsad]

I can't see any advantage of it over a normal type.
As others have said,unreliable technology for technologys sake.

In fact if you look through LR forums,the D3/4 EPB is one of the most common issues.

As for servicing,mine is done every 12 months.

[Blknight.aus]

For the life of me I don’t know we bothered to progress beyond the horse? Where would you like to limit your technology to? .

One day, this guy name rudolf squeezed a peanut through an injector.

not long after that some bloke name lanz looked at the engine after it fell over threw some wheels and a gearbox under it and called it a tractor, named it in part for his favorite breed of pooch.

shortly thereafter someone went, That'd look boss on tracks and chicks dig track...

The day after that.

[twr7cx]

The EPB design was fine, but they expected people to service them to be effective. If only their dealer network did.

There are many dealer serviced vehicles which are still failing prematurely of expectations. In our case it was most recently the interior switch which no amount of servicing or not would effect.



My point is that with the best intentions, everything new is beta even went it’s generally available. This is why it’s best to avoid being first to buy the new model. You can do as many tests as you like with automation and test miles, but the real world is the best test for a new product.

In the case of the D4 it’s not the first implementation, the D3 had the system too, so it should have been matured by the second release on a Discovery... I’m not familiar with Range Rovers but I would assume that fancy tech probably starts on them before the plebs Disco’s so arguably the Disco is already second implementation and the D4 their third go at it... Yet, still the issues.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this. You enjoy your cracks in the walls while I will keep looking at them annoyed...

[l00kin4]

Hi Scott,

I thought I recalled (GOE) Gordon saying on a course I went on that the emergency stopping routine invoked by holding the EPB used pretty much everything at its disposal to stop the vehicle, so I went foraging through old threads and found this quote from him with a bit more info:

Holding the lever up for over 1 ~ 2 seconds will engage the emergency stop routine, which doesn't invoke the EPB mechanism, but uses the ABS/ETC/DSC/transmission to stop you as fast as possible without losing line, for as long as you hold it up (caveat: the EPB will engage once you're under 5 kph).

However, if the disc braking system is NOT working: again a momentary application of the EPB lever at speeds above 5 kph will do nothing; holding up the lever to invoke the emergency stop will (as a last resort) engage the EPB proportionally, such that skidding is not invoked (along with the transmission braking).


Yes done it and it works well. It's not actually using the EPB in that situation but rather holding the EPB switch is triggering emergency braking solely through the ABS.

Scott

[DiscoJeffster]

Correct. I’ve read the manual to death on this. If the ABS system is failed and the EBB is pulled, the handbrake shoes will be engaged instead.

It’s a solid system when maintained.

[DiscoJeffster]

There are many dealer serviced vehicles which are still failing prematurely of expectations. In our case it was most recently the interior switch which no amount of servicing or not would effect.




In the case of the D4 it’s not the first implementation, the D3 had the system too, so it should have been matured by the second release on a Discovery... I’m not familiar with Range Rovers but I would assume that fancy tech probably starts on them before the plebs Disco’s so arguably the Disco is already second implementation and the D4 their third go at it... Yet, still the issues.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this. You enjoy your cracks in the walls while I will keep looking at them annoyed...

To correct you - dealer unserviced.

I agree a switch failure is unacceptable. Servicing the brakes is also not, but the over extended error (screech) is only because of a lack of servicing. You may take it for a service but a complete service is not being actioned.

[twr7cx]

To correct you - dealer unserviced.

I agree a switch failure is unacceptable. Servicing the brakes is also not, but the over extended error (screech) is only because of a lack of servicing. You may take it for a service but a complete service is not being actioned.

It's part of the Land Rover issue then if they're dealers aren't carrying it out during scheduled servicing when it's in the service schedule - could be lack of training, lack of awareness of the importance or a premature technology implement if they don't have the service network up to the required level...

But I still stand by the fact that under the manufacturers specifications it has to be additionally serviced after 50km of mud driving to be ridiculous on a vehicle designed for off road use. How they reached this conclusion but still retained the system on the production vehicles baffles me.

[Aussie Jeepster]

I spoke to my Indie here in Adelaide (Soverign) and they check the EPB on every service.
Mine was in last week, and we discussed it (the EPB) and he said as long as it is checked/serviced regularly, it should be ok.
He checked mine, and said it was fine.
I still hesitate to use it anywhere, "just in case".
I'm amazed at all the discussion about this system - definitely a wide range of opinions.

[dtripp]

If you have an iidtool or any other similar device, it's possible to enable the epb to automatically apply when the key is removed. I have it set like that with my RRS. Also the drive away function can be disabled. I still have it on though as it is useful if taking off up a steep hill. Obviously it doesn't work very well on flat ground as it's not really designed for that as far as I know.

[DiscoJeffster]

If you have an iidtool or any other similar device, it's possible to enable the epb to automatically apply when the key is removed. I have it set like that with my RRS. Also the drive away function can be disabled. I still have it on though as it is useful if taking off up a steep hill. Obviously it doesn't work very well on flat ground as it's not really designed for that as far as I know.

Hmmm. I’ve never heard of this in all these years. It’s not in the menus so unless it’s a hidden feature I don’t believe it applies to the Discovery

[Eric SDV6SE]

If you have an iidtool or any other similar device, it's possible to enable the epb to automatically apply when the key is removed. I have it set like that with my RRS. Also the drive away function can be disabled. I still have it on though as it is useful if taking off up a steep hill. Obviously it doesn't work very well on flat ground as it's not really designed for that as far as I know.

The D4 doesn't have a dedicated key location in the car. Do you mean when the key leaves the car? I also have not heard of this feature on the D4. application via the lever in the central console.