How to make electric vehicles audible?

[DiscoMick]

Apparently London's new electric buses are so quiet it is dangerous.

Futuristic sounds to make electric buses safer hit wrong note

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/01/futuristic-sounds-to-make-electric-buses-safer-hit-wrong-note?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[speleomike]

Hi

The bus should be proceeded by a person of British descent, walking in front of the bus, wearing a British Transport uniform with a red flag and loudly but clearly enunciating in an educated voice "Hear ye, hear ye, electric bus approaching. Route 9, Trafalgar Square to Green Park".

This would help provide many jobs to alleviate the unemployment, vision impaired persons would be able to hear and understand what is approaching, and it would attract overseas tourists to view the archaic procession like the guards of the palace.

Mike

[Homestar]

Wonder if those that have been hit or nearly hit were all wearing earbuds, or playing with their phones and not paying attention to the large red object approaching...

Maybe it’s a good way of teaching people to actually pay attention to what’s going on, take responsibility for their actions and stop blaming other things for their shortcomings? Might strengthen the gene pool a bit too if we let Darwinism back in and had that cull a few ****wits.

But we all know that will never happen.

[drivesafe]

The problem of electric vehicles being so quite that they pose a potential danger to pedestrians is not new.

A number of cities in the USA have been looking at this problem and are looking at having some form of warning of the vehicles approaching, when the vehicle is travelling at speeds of 25 MPH ( about 40 KPH ) or slower.

They found that electric vehicles travelling at speeds above 25 MPH had a similar noise level as many new petrol/diesel motored vehicles because of the noise generated by any vehicle’s tyres.

[gromit]

Same problem with AGV's in factories.
I visited a factory in Germany over 35 years ago and they had installed AGV's (early version following a wire set in the concrete floor). They used to 'beep' when they were close to something/someone, if it got too close it stopped.
The beeping quickly became annoying so they started to play music so you could hear it coming and get out of the way.

Maybe the buses need an automatic braking system so that when someone busy on their iphone steps in front the bus suddenly stops and all the passengers fall out of their seats.


Colin

[justinc]

The hissing crackle and popping sound of a Lithium cell thermal runaway ought to give ample warning of the proximity of an EV..😁

[mrs]

We are apparently getting some electric buses in Sydney, don't know if they are doing anything about noise, intetesting to see what they do.

[DiscoMick]

It's a similar problem to bicycles not being heard. I remember in Beijing you had to really watch for bicycles before stepping off the kerb.

[austastar]

Hi,
Years ago there were similar concerns wth the watercooled, shaft drive Velocete motorcycle. Letters to the papers were full of suggestions for bells or similar to warn pedestrians of their approach.
They were also used by the London Metropolitan Police, and acquired the nickname Noddy bikes.
Cheers

[theelms66]

Whats wrong with the clothes peg and playing card in the spokes . Worked a treat on my treadly.

[DiscoMick]

Is it a radical idea to suggest that people actually get responsible and look where they are going?

[shanegtr]

Fit a Jericho trumpet (aka Stuka Dive bomber) - that should awaken any unsuspecting pedestrian[tonguewink]

[scarry]

Why not fit them with muddies,they are bloody noisey at all speeds[biggrin]

[Toxic_Avenger]

Can't find a source to confirm... but I recall hearing that some noise is directional, whilst other noise is not.
Sirens and jet engines usually leave us looking around for the source of the noise, however certain sounds, bubbling water from a stream for example, has a sound signature which allows it to be fairly accurately pinpointed by humans (another win for evolution).
I recall hearing there was development of injecting these directional sounds into the sirens of emergency vehicles to allow the source to be traced more easily. Would be a perfect application with EV's, say for example loud volume, but unobtrusive pink noise (which IIRC mimics natural sounds).

...either that or Cannibal Corpse 'hammer smashed face' playing at 125dB ALL THE DARN TIME!!!
Leave you opinions in the Heavy Metal appreciation Thread (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/219418-heavy-metal-music-music-videos-covers-thread.html) :soapbox:

[goingbush]

Ive since removed the sound module, I like minimalist and found myself adding un-nescessary junk.


https://youtu.be/eVh6W_PqkJo

[Homestar]

Can't find a source to confirm... but I recall hearing that some noise is directional, whilst other noise is not.
Sirens and jet engines usually leave us looking around for the source of the noise, however certain sounds, bubbling water from a stream for example, has a sound signature which allows it to be fairly accurately pinpointed by humans (another win for evolution).
I recall hearing there was development of injecting these directional sounds into the sirens of emergency vehicles to allow the source to be traced more easily. Would be a perfect application with EV's, say for example loud volume, but unobtrusive pink noise (which IIRC mimics natural sounds).

...either that or Cannibal Corpse 'hammer smashed face' playing at 125dB ALL THE DARN TIME!!!
Leave you opinions in the Heavy Metal appreciation Thread (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/219418-heavy-metal-music-music-videos-covers-thread.html) :soapbox:

Yep, this is one of the reasons the old ‘beepers’ on machinery and reverse alarms are being replaced with the ‘White noise’ or ‘hash’ beepers as the direction of these can be ascertained whereas the beeping ones cannot be so much. Many larger projects and construction companies won’t accept beeper style units on machinery any more.

[austastar]

Ive since removed the sound module,

Hi,
You weren't tempted to use a V12 Ferrari sound??

Some where I saw a clip of an EV using an R2D2 sound clip that had a very appropriate voice for the carpark situation.

Cheers

Edit, similar to http://www.galaxyfaraway.com/Sounds/R2D2c.wav


Edit, found it, it wasn't an EV, it is the polite horn in this YouTube clip.
YouTube (https://youtu.be/lv8wqnk_TsA)

[DiscoMick]

Yep, this is one of the reasons the old ‘beepers’ on machinery and reverse alarms are being replaced with the ‘White noise’ or ‘hash’ beepers as the direction of these can be ascertained whereas the beeping ones cannot be so much. Many larger projects and construction companies won’t accept beeper style units on machinery any more.So I was down at the Caloundra Waste Recovery Centre today getting a free trailer load of coarse mulch for the garden and the big tractor loader had the most annoying reversing beeper I have ever heard. I can't describe it, but if it went on for more than about five minutes I might stab my eyes with my keys just to distract me from hearing it. Fortunately it didn't.
If they put that on an electric bus no-one would ever fail to know the bus was coming.

[4bee]

Suggested sound effect to suit an electric vehicle is to make it sound like an Internal Combustion Engine.

Job done.[smilebigeye]

[gromit]

Hi,
Years ago there were similar concerns wth the watercooled, shaft drive Velocete motorcycle. Letters to the papers were full of suggestions for bells or similar to warn pedestrians of their approach.
They were also used by the London Metropolitan Police, and acquired the nickname Noddy bikes.
Cheers

Our local copper in rural Essex had one. He could creep us on us lads larking around and we didn't hear him till he shouted at us from a few feet away !

I ended up briefly owning an early hand start, hand gearchange version of the LE. Sold it on before really trying it out and concentrated on bigger British bikes (oh, except for the D14/4 Bantam I used as a run-to-work bike).

Colin

[Bigbjorn]

Suggested sound effect to suit an electric vehicle is to make it sound like an Internal Combustion Engine.

Job done.[smilebigeye]

Nothing wrong with a good sound system and a recording of a Chrysler Hemi powered AA Fuel dragster starting and staging. A 540 cubic inch hemi running about 60 lb of boost on nitromethane blend and open pipes would get anyone's attention.

[Bigbjorn]

Hi,
Years ago there were similar concerns wth the watercooled, shaft drive Velocete motorcycle. Letters to the papers were full of suggestions for bells or similar to warn pedestrians of their approach.
They were also used by the London Metropolitan Police, and acquired the nickname Noddy bikes.
Cheers

Old motor cycle racer and proprietor of Baxter's motorcycles in Fortitude Valley once told me that to his undying shame he got a speeding fine on one. A bit like getting a speeding fine on a diesel Series LR.

My comment at the time "Downhill, was it, Jack?" His reply "Not you too. The world is full of smart arses." He reckoned it was like being caught out in public with a woman not your wife. Everyone he knew happened to walk or drive past as he was being booked.

A friend had an LE Velo for a commuter bike. He reckoned it not only ran on the proverbial oily rag, you didn't have to re-oil the rag very often.

[4bee]

Nothing wrong with a good sound system and a recording of a Chrysler Hemi powered AA Fuel dragster starting and staging. A 540 cubic inch hemi running about 60 lb of boost on nitromethane blend and open pipes would get anyone's attention.



Huh? Now in Eeenglish please?

[Homestar]

Huh? Now in Eeenglish please?

What? Never been to the drags (not the street drags, but real, high horsepower)? Really? You must, then you’ll understand. Until you’ve been, you don’t know what loud is or how it feels ​when they launch. Don’t go and YouTube it, that doesn’t cut it - get down to your local track next time a meet is on - even if you have to drive all day to get there. 👍

[4bee]

WOT! Drive all day just to hear a loud noise? And back again?


Yeah roight. I know 'er indoors says I look stoopid but I assure you it's only the grey melange short trousers & the black horn rim Bi- focals that give that impression. :Thump::Rolling:

[Homestar]

Yep! You want to hear something really sad? I used to drive 4 hours each way to Calder Park to watch the Top Fuellers when they were in town. I now live 10 minutes away from there and they don’t come any more. 😥

[Bigbjorn]

What? Never been to the drags (not the street drags, but real, high horsepower)? Really? You must, then you’ll understand. Until you’ve been, you don’t know what loud is or how it feels ​when they launch. Don’t go and YouTube it, that doesn’t cut it - get down to your local track next time a meet is on - even if you have to drive all day to get there. 👍

The top teams are now finding 11,000 horsepower and doing 3.6 second quarters. You can feel the noise as you say. Google AA fuel dragsters and look at the engines being built and rebuilt. These teams are THE experts at getting horsepower. Look at the quality internals in those engines.

[Homestar]

That’s just insane. They were searching for 6,000HP and sub 5 seconds back when I younger.

[donh54]

That’s just insane. They were searching for 6,000HP and sub 5 seconds back when I younger.

I was an ANDRA steward at Willowbank the night of the first side-by-side 4 second pass.
It's a true sight and sound spectacular.
Some of the best times were when I had to escort corporate types down to the start line. Seeing their faces when two Top Fuel dragsters launched about ten feet away was priceless!

[Tombie]

So I was down at the Caloundra Waste Recovery Centre today getting a free trailer load of coarse mulch for the garden and the big tractor loader had the most annoying reversing beeper I have ever heard. I can't describe it, but if it went on for more than about five minutes I might stab my eyes with my keys just to distract me from hearing it. Fortunately it didn't.
If they put that on an electric bus no-one would ever fail to know the bus was coming.

Stab your eyes to not hear it?
Why not just stab your eardrums and not look at it?

[emoji12]

[4bee]

Yep! You want to hear something really sad? I used to drive 4 hours each way to Calder Park to watch the Top Fuellers when they were in town. I now live 10 minutes away from there and they don’t come any more. 😥


Yes that is really really sad, so much so I have tears rolling down my cheeks & not just the facial ones either. [biggrin]

[Bigbjorn]

That’s just insane. They were searching for 6,000HP and sub 5 seconds back when I younger.

In 2011 at Ed. Pinks shop in Van Nuys I was shown drawings of a proposed V12 based on Chrysler Hemi, Leo Goosens narrow angle turbo Offy heads and ports, and input from Stu. Van Dyne and from the late Smokey Yunick. 14 litres and twin stage supercharged, maybe 80 psi boost with up to 20,000 horsepower eventually with development. Never got past the drawing boards. Main problem then was driveline and tyres. How can we get this power on the ground. The entire driveline needed to be designed and tested.

[stealth]

Melbourne has had electric trams for ever and I don’t see them skittling too many pedestrians.

[4bee]

A bit like Adelaide's Tram in days of yore. Trams have been reintroduced to the streets of Adelaide once again BTW.


Trip over the tram lines & "Hello, there must be a tram along here"

Plus, they had those dinky little foot operated bells & BFO Air Horns.


Ah the good olde days.[smilebigeye]

[Homestar]

Melbourne has had electric trams for ever and I don’t see them skittling too many pedestrians.

Yeah, not in any serious accidents no, most people seem to understand what’s going on although I have twice seen a tram driver dinging his horn at someone stood directly in front of them (both on the Bourke Street Mall) and finally giving them the smallest of bumps to get their attention - both times they jumped into the air like a startled cat and both times the tram driver has been ****ing himself laughing. 😁

[Tombie]

Melbourne has had electric trams for ever and I don’t see them skittling too many pedestrians.

They are quite noisy, the wheels on the tracks are audible when closer.

Trains are called the silent killer for a reason though.
When at speed you won’t hear it until it flattens you.

[DiscoMick]

Gold Coast trams are quiet.

[stealth]

They are quite noisy, the wheels on the tracks are audible when closer.

Trains are called the silent killer for a reason though.
When at speed you won’t hear it until it flattens you.

Well they are not noisy at all. Steel on steel especially at slow speeds is not noisy at all.
And amidst City background noise it is very easy to not notice a tram until you hear the distinctive “Ding” Of their bell.
And if you know any tram drivers they will tell you how often they bang on their bell.

[4bee]

They are quite noisy, the wheels on the tracks are audible when closer.

Trains are called the silent killer for a reason though.
When at speed you won’t hear it until it flattens you.


By then one's lugholes wouldn't be working & if they were one would have more pressing things on one's mind.

Sounds like a good argument to revert back to Steam Locos then. A pity SA ripped all of it's infrastructure out.[bigsad]

Imagine the cost of building another Loco Roundhouse at Mile End yards for instance? [wink11]

[Homestar]

Gold Coast trams are quiet.

Wait until the tracks are 100 plus years old, won’t be then... 😉

[4bee]

Paris Metro trains run on pneumatic tyres. I think from memory they have a side pickup slider for power supply.

In '77 the first one I traveled on was metal to metal.


Just sayin'.[smilebigeye]

[DiscoMick]

Wait until the tracks are 100 plus years old, won’t be then... [emoji6]Much as I'd love to live to 165, I fear it's unlikely to happen. [emoji16]

[Homestar]

Much as I'd love to live to 165, I fear it's unlikely to happen. [emoji16]

Well not with that attitude! 😁

[DiscoMick]

I'd probably be a miserable, incontinent vegetable at 165, so that's not a cheery thought.
[emoji15]

[4bee]

Even so Mick, the positive would be that you'd be #1 on the Nursing Home dating Roster with all other 165 year olde chicks.

Bars, flicks, soirees & drive ins. (do they still have those?) The world would/could be your oyster. Possibly.[bigsmile1]

If Dame Vera Lynn can get to 102 not out, then you could still be in with a chance.[smilebigeye]

[DiscoMick]

I think at 165 I would be way past caring about chicks.

[4bee]

Why not wait until you get there before making an informed opinion?[smilebigeye]

[DiscoMick]

I doubt if I could catch a chick at 165, let alone do anything except pant pathetically. [emoji16]

[4bee]

As they say, "You are only as old as the chick you pull"[biggrin]


Maybe before that time arrives what about knocking up & V8i powered walking frame but make sure you put some decent rubber on it for those very quick pursuits[smilebigeye].

[DiscoMick]

Maybe, but an electric wheelchair would be faster.

[4bee]

And just when you caught up with her & because you gave it too many herbs in the chase, your battery would go flat.

A V8i would really grab her attention. [biggrin]

[DiscoMick]

A Tesla-powered wheelchair would be both very fast and have a long range.

[goingbush]

A Tesla-powered wheelchair would be both very fast and have a long range.

Looking forward to building my EV 4x4 mobility scooter when the time comes.
something like this but a few more herbs


https://youtu.be/DKhQIC4R0S0

[4bee]

Inconsiderate bastard. Why didn't he get off his arse with his electric Chainsaw & remove the log?

A little kid on a trike could have been next along the path.[biggrin]

[austastar]

Hi,
Scary placement of the top edge of the windshield.
Cheers

[DiscoMick]

Silent, no gears and cheaper every day: electric cars aren't so hard to get used to

Silent, no gears and cheaper every day: electric cars aren't so hard to get used to | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/22/silent-no-gears-and-cheaper-every-day-electric-cars-arent-so-hard-to-get-used-to?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[goingbush]

Did you say no gears ,
ZF is being a party pooper ZF Introduces 2-Speed Drive For EVs To Boost Electric Range (https://insideevs.com/news/360896/zf-2-speed-drive-5-more-range/)

[austastar]

Hi,
One video on YouTube showed a setup with a 2 speed torque flight transmission on the back of the electric motor.
The claimed advantages were easier low speed, a parking lock and the reverse not needing additional circuitry.
Cheers

[goingbush]

Hi,
One video on YouTube showed a setup with a 2 speed torque flight transmission on the back of the electric motor.
The claimed advantages were easier low speed, a parking lock and the reverse not needing additional circuitry.
Cheers

Reverse does not need additional circuitry , just a toggle switch, the wiring is already there.

The problem with auto trans is the motor needs to keep running when the vehicle is stopped for the hydraulics, Going back a few years a Manual planetary 2 speed gearbox like the Ford T Model would be perfectly suited.


gears are useful


https://youtu.be/Scv2z6u-S0w


I have a video comparison I did of electric reverse vs gearbox reverse , fresh from upload to youtube.


https://youtu.be/3QmDw5LJRJk

[austastar]

Hi,
Thanks, you reminded me of a point I forgot. There was a hydraulic pump that only ran when the vehicle was a low speed.

Found the video (https://youtu.be/Ie7qvo-aC5k)


It is all interesting tech to me, not that I understand it all.
If the electric pushbikes had been around 30 years ago I would have bought one. The 10km commute on the push bike took a bit longer after age 40.
Cheers

[goingbush]

Hi,
Thanks, you reminded me of a point I forgot. There was a hydraulic pump that only ran when the vehicle was a low speed.

Found the video (https://youtu.be/Ie7qvo-aC5k)


It is all interesting tech to me, not that I understand it all.
If the electric pushbikes had been around 30 years ago I would have bought one. The 10km commute on the push bike took a bit longer after age 40.
Cheers

Neato , not a bad thing when you remove the torque converter , Old video 2013 , they are using DC Motors , almost everyone has moved onto AC motors now , indication of how fast the tech is moving. DC Motors had their benefits though, they are torque monsters but don't have regen braking and cant be sealed against dust / water.

[austastar]

Hi,
In the 70s a friend was doing a project electric car for his engineering degree. It was a Fiat (Bambino?) with the clipped canvas roof. His project was focussed on the circuitry involved in controlling the DC current.
At the time I was doing a lot of drawing with Rotring pens and stencils, so I redrew his circuits to publication standard for his thesis.
It was a nippy little beast. I took some photos of him driving, using a slow shutter speed and panning to get a really good speed blur for the background.
They came out well, and as he was tall, his blond hair flew in the wind out the sun roof, adding to the speeding effect.
It may have been one of the first electric cars in the State, but I have no idea what has happened to it or Graham either.
Cheers

[Tombie]

Reverse does not need additional circuitry , just a toggle switch, the wiring is already there.

The problem with auto trans is the motor needs to keep running when the vehicle is stopped for the hydraulics, Going back a few years a Manual planetary 2 speed gearbox like the Ford T Model would be perfectly suited.


gears are useful


https://youtu.be/Scv2z6u-S0w

When a stall situation occurs, what does the motor and controls do? Eg. What if any logic is there?

[goingbush]

When a stall situation occurs, what does the motor and controls do? Eg. What if any logic is there?

If it stalls going up hill the vehicle stops & starts going backwards, even with throttle pedal fully on .
The factory programing senses full power at zero RPM & cuts power to the motor so as to not overload anything, Definitely not an ideal situation, but at least the regen will kick in an d slow you down.

The same programme makes it hard to do a burnout, or otherwise break traction .

I do have a dealer level programmer but have been warned not to alter parameters I don't understand, and thats most of it. Ive played with the throttle map and altered the power in Eco mode but for the most part the factory default is pretty good.

Heres another video comparing Kw power usage with different gears , and the vehicle stalls at 1.54 and at 2.33 just starts rolling back in gear , I'm still holding full throttle as it rolls back and purposely don't touch the brake as I needed to go back anyway, you can see regen kick in as it rolls back (power goes negative = charging the battery)

The motor is only 150Nm, I doubt a factory built EV would have the problem . I'd hope they will have sufficient torque to begin with and perhaps might interact with ABS to grab the brake if such a situation arose. I understand the logic behind it as keeping pumping power into a stalled motor is not an ideal situation, but some warning or modulation would be good .


https://youtu.be/lQKcoO7A8ns

[Homestar]

Your dog appears to be quite confused about why you drove up and down the same hill so many times. 😁

[goingbush]

Your dog appears to be quite confused about why you drove up and down the same hill so many times. 😁

I noticed he was getting aggro, all he wanted to do was go to where he last spotted a rabbit a bit further along.

[goingbush]

Getting back on topic, Fellow Iveco 4x4 owner doing a world tour spotted this "Horseless carriage" in Mexico ,

note the rear axle . Hope it has an audible 'Clippity Clop" sound generator

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67425726_10156565390107934_6347616975182626816_o.j pg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_eui2=AeFH7vJs8qLp3K9C0D2QGK948BRS9N4igZqWVNYqx uxCQGtfWaawL10FIqX-xuzVTJaMY-9oKqwWH-V_j8Is1a-6XupsCBofvCRcf1faWn0SQQ&_nc_oc=AQmgSWTHCQ1zlT1aZ9I4RVLEWL_pDDtK5UlM6mik4xy DrhmQFInkfEERz_Ux2BFhIsQ&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=c430e3e49d9cbd2a02be9286bda2c422&oe=5DE1A153


or a gringo at the front with a set of Monty Python coconuts.


https://youtu.be/JHFXG3r_0B8