Aircon 2016 D4 SDV6 - is this wear and tear?

[GregMilner]

Murphy’s Law, just out of warranty and my aircon has decided I don’t need to keep cool this summer. Am I right or wrong to hope that under consumer law, I should be able to assume that the aircon compressor ought to last longer than 3 years and 66,000km...and LR should fix this at no cost to me?

[4bee]

Are you 100% sure it is the compressor though? It could be one of many things & that may alter a claim?

[DiscoDB]

Consumer Affairs in your state will give you free advice on your rights and the best approach to resolve. They can also get involved then if this does not work.

If the issue is you need a new compressor then you may be covered, but if it is a regas or a minor fault then this may be considered wear and tear.

Typically Consumer Affairs will suggest you contact the dealer and try to resolve first before then getting them involved.

[DiscoJeffster]

It is common the valve on the compressor fails. Mine is dud and so it takes ages to start cooling some days. I’d agree it’s a reasonable argument that it should last longer if that is in fact the issue

[GregMilner]

Are you 100% sure it is the compressor though? It could be one of many things & that may alter a claim?

not sure at all, I just noticed it today, so first call is to the dealer tomorrow. Unfortunately they’re nearly an hour away.

[Tombie]

not sure at all, I just noticed it today, so first call is to the dealer tomorrow. Unfortunately they’re nearly an hour away.

(Monty Python voice on)

An hour.... luxury.

[GregMilner]

Just checked it again in the driveway. I can hear the compressor clicking on okay, cool air is fine on the passenger side of the car. But ambient temp on the driver’s side, both right front and right second row aren’t blowing cold at all. What th...?

[Tins]

(Monty Python voice on)

An hour.... luxury.

Rather like a cardboard box..

[Tins]

Just checked it again in the driveway. I can hear the compressor clicking on okay, cool air is fine on the passenger side of the car. But ambient temp on the driver’s side, both right front and right second row aren’t blowing cold at all. What th...?

Dunno much about those cars, but on older cars that is suggestive of a vacuum pipe off or a blender motor failure.

[Narangga]

Just checked it again in the driveway. I can hear the compressor clicking on okay, cool air is fine on the passenger side of the car. But ambient temp on the driver’s side, both right front and right second row aren’t blowing cold at all. What th...?

Same symptoms as mine was until the compressor rang out of gas, bearings ran dry and therefore silver particles through the whole system...

Play safe and turn it off and do not use it until it is checked.

[4bee]

That is good advice. Don't be tempted. Not too many mechanical items that should be oil lubricated run well when it hasn't got any.

No doubt you will post your results? I wouldn't be surprised if the Gas Charge is low. but you won't know until it is looked at.

[DiscoJeffster]

Just checked it again in the driveway. I can hear the compressor clicking on okay, cool air is fine on the passenger side of the car. But ambient temp on the driver’s side, both right front and right second row aren’t blowing cold at all. What th...?

I don’t believe what you heard was the compressor clicking on mate. These babies use constant drive compressors with variable displacement which is controlled via the displacement control valve I mentioned earlier. They don’t operate on/off like in the older cars.

[BradC]

Just checked it again in the driveway. I can hear the compressor clicking on okay, cool air is fine on the passenger side of the car. But ambient temp on the driver’s side, both right front and right second row aren’t blowing cold at all. What th...?

As stated above, this is consistent with being low on gas. Despite the calls to "not turn it on", it's actually running all of the time, just at minimum displacement.

I'm going to go on my standard rant here, so those who've heard it before might want to change the channel :

The system relies on adequate gas charge to circulate the oil. They still operate adequately when they get low(ish), but by the time you've noticed any impairment in the cooling the oil circulation has been well below par for a good while. This is the reason that I recommend getting your systems re-gassed every couple of years regardless of how well they are working (and I'm not in the industry or sell refrigerant so I have no dog in this fight).

These systems are not hermetic. They do leak (from the day they are gassed up in the factory), and low refrigerant levels do cause damage. The systems with the rear A/C are even more prone as there are more joints and a lot longer pipework to hoard oil. People don't tend to notice impaired cooling on the rear evaporator while the dash unit is still working adequately and you've already started to trap lubricant in the lines/evaporators.

I did our Golf on the weekend. It was 2 years since the last go and it was 75g short. That's 14% down. Last time I did the D3 it was 25% down (after purchase, no idea of time frame) and was still cooling what I'd call pretty well. I did Mums Golf and it was 76% short after 2 years (and barely cooling). I think that one has a leak, so I'll have to get around to it shortly.

[GregMilner]

I don’t believe what you heard was the compressor clicking on mate. These babies use constant drive compressors with variable displacement which is controlled via the displacement control valve I mentioned earlier. They don’t operate on/off like in the older cars.
Thanks Jeff, didn’t know that. Certainly something makes a click noise under the bonnet when I hit the button, what would that be?

[GregMilner]

As stated above, this is consistent with being low on gas. Despite the calls to "not turn it on", it's actually running all of the time, just at minimum displacement.

I'm going to go on my standard rant here, so those who've heard it before might want to change the channel :

The system relies on adequate gas charge to circulate the oil. They still operate adequately when they get low(ish), but by the time you've noticed any impairment in the cooling the oil circulation has been well below par for a good while. This is the reason that I recommend getting your systems re-gassed every couple of years regardless of how well they are working (and I'm not in the industry or sell refrigerant so I have no dog in this fight).

These systems are not hermetic. They do leak (from the day they are gassed up in the factory), and low refrigerant levels do cause damage. The systems with the rear A/C are even more prone as there are more joints and a lot longer pipework to hoard oil. People don't tend to notice impaired cooling on the rear evaporator while the dash unit is still working adequately and you've already started to trap lubricant in the lines/evaporators.

I did our Golf on the weekend. It was 2 years since the last go and it was 75g short. That's 14% down. Last time I did the D3 it was 25% down (after purchase, no idea of time frame) and was still cooling what I'd call pretty well. I did Mums Golf and it was 76% short after 2 years (and barely cooling). I think that one has a leak, so I'll have to get around to it shortly.

Didnt know that either Brad, thanks for the heads up, I’ll get it checked at my local LR indie tomorrow.

[LRD414]

..... system relies on adequate gas charge to circulate the oil. They still operate adequately when they get low(ish), but by the time you've noticed any impairment in the cooling the oil circulation has been well below par for a good while. This is the reason that I recommend getting your systems re-gassed every couple of years regardless of how well they are working ....... These systems are not hermetic. They do leak (from the day they are gassed up in the factory), and low refrigerant levels do cause damage. The systems with the rear A/C are even more prone as there are more joints and a lot longer pipework to hoard oil. People don't tend to notice impaired cooling on the rear evaporator while the dash unit is still working adequately and you've already started to trap lubricant in the lines/evaporators..
Brad, could any reasonable AC place do the check and re-gas? Or do you think it requires an LR specialist. Mine is 5 years old and no problems detected but this seems good advice to me.

Regards,
Scott

[4bee]

As mentioned above,when a system (any sort) operates, oil is constantly in circulation. That is why it requires a Miscible oil.

As my old boss/tutor told me in days of yore :rolleyes:, "Imagine all the internal surfaces cut open, laid flat & painted with oil. That is how much oil is required in the system for correct operation" & if a rear evaporator coil is involved, obviously it will take more due to line lengths & routing. ie. low level traps. The same applies to gas charge.

I am not familiar with the system in question & it's quirks & ancillary components, but at the end of the day it is still only an enclosed recirc. system.


On commercial Refrigeration & Air Conditioning systems an Oil Trap is normally used which consists of a cylinder with internal baffles to capture vapour borne oil as the oil laden gas is passed through it from the compressor.

When this oil level builds up in the bottom of the oil trap, a float valve under high pressure opens & discharges oil back to the compressor low pressure side but that is strictly a Commercial system. No such thing exists for small systems to my knowledge nor would it appear necessary, & the High Side Float of yesteryear may very well have been superseded by some modern equivalent using electronics & other technology, but it was a simple system.



Basic Oil Trap.

Like so. 155058


Now, what was the question?[biggrin]

[BradC]

Brad, could any reasonable AC place do the check and re-gas? Or do you think it requires an LR specialist. Mine is 5 years old and no problems detected but this seems good advice to me.

Any competent A/C place. It's only r134a and there is nothing special about the system in the Discovery. A competent one will weigh the removed gas so you know how much you were down before re-charging with the specified quantity.

[GregMilner]

Any competent A/C place. It's only r134a and there is nothing special about the system in the Discovery. A competent one will weigh the removed gas so you know how much you were down before re-charging with the specified quantity.

Brad you're right, it was low on gas. I'm not familiar with car aircon systems, but from what the indie mechanic tells me, when he was running tests after regassing, the pressure "was getting up to 20 bar" which apparently isn't good, and indicated another problem, which was a sticking valve (I forget what he called it) that sits somewhere behind the dash. It eventually unstuck itself, so the system is working fine again now. However he did say that the valve in question may need replacing if it fails again - a tediously fiddly job requiring part of the dash to be dismantled - about 11 hours all up - plus about $600 for the part.

Cross fingers, it keeps itself unstuck for the foreseeable future:-)

[BradC]

Brad you're right, it was low on gas. I'm not familiar with car aircon systems, but from what the indie mechanic tells me, when he was running tests after regassing, the pressure "was getting up to 20 bar" which apparently isn't good, and indicated another problem, which was a sticking valve (I forget what he called it) that sits somewhere behind the dash. It eventually unstuck itself, so the system is working fine again now. However he did say that the valve in question may need replacing if it fails again - a tediously fiddly job requiring part of the dash to be dismantled - about 11 hours all up - plus about $600 for the part.

Cross fingers, it keeps itself unstuck for the foreseeable future:-)

r134a at 20 Bar is about 70C. That's relatively high for the high side but you'd need the low side figure to go with it to diagnose a sticky TXV. Still, lets see what happens after a couple of weeks driving it around with some oil circulating. It's amazing what a bit of oil can do for stuff.

[4bee]

Brad you're right, it was low on gas. I'm not familiar with car aircon systems, but from what the indie mechanic tells me, when he was running tests after regassing, the pressure "was getting up to 20 bar" which apparently isn't good, and indicated another problem, which was a sticking valve (I forget what he called it) that sits somewhere behind the dash. It eventually unstuck itself, so the system is working fine again now. However he did say that the valve in question may need replacing if it fails again - a tediously fiddly job requiring part of the dash to be dismantled - about 11 hours all up - plus about $600 for the part.

Cross fingers, it keeps itself unstuck for the foreseeable future:-)



600 smakeroos! Must be gold plated these days. If it needs replacing I'd be shopping around a bit, that sounds ridiculous imho & somebody is having a lend..[bigsad]

[Redtail]

600 smakeroos! Must be gold plated these days. If it needs replacing I'd be shopping around a bit, that sounds ridiculous imho & somebody is having a lend..[bigsad]

Mine needed doing. Apparently the valve in question is in the compressor body, and while it's a relatively inexpensive component, the labour to get in there and get it out is the killer.
Luckily my compressor was in good nick and it was just the valve that got replaced. That price sounds about the same as I paid.

[4bee]

But he doesn't say that RT. He said....."forget what he called it) that sits somewhere behind the dash."

Are you talking the same valve? Being behind the dash adjacent to the cooling coil (?) I would have thought it was a Thermal Expansion Valve but as I mentioned in a previous post I am not familiar with the system & it's quirks &/or any components".

My suggestion was generally to be aware of what you are expecting & what you get, & if a TEV, it sounds expensive. Labour would be expected to be a lot stripping & rebuilding the dash. Makes one wonder why that valve is not tucked away behind a flap accessible from the exterior. Some dream eh?[biggrin]

I realise that those of you in WA are subject to being charged a lot for similar work closer to the Eastern States for freight etc in that some unscrupulous traders can have you by the nuts. ie. Take it or leave it stuff..

[Narangga]

600 smakeroos! Must be gold plated these days. If it needs replacing I'd be shopping around a bit, that sounds ridiculous imho & somebody is having a lend..[bigsad]

Try doing the whole system...:BigCry:

[4bee]

No thanks, I'll stick to my block of ice on the front seat with a 12v fan blowing over it. Ok for short trips.[biggrin][biggrin]

[Redtail]

But he doesn't say that RT. He said....."forget what he called it) that sits somewhere behind the dash."

Are you talking the same valve? Being behind the dash adjacent to the cooling coil (?) I would have thought it was a Thermal Expansion Valve but as I mentioned in a previous post I am not familiar with the system & it's quirks &/or any components".


Good point.



My suggestion was generally to be aware of what you are expecting & what you get, & if a TEV, it sounds expensive. Labour would be expected to be a lot stripping & rebuilding the dash. Makes one wonder why that valve is not tucked away behind a flap accessible from the exterior. Some dream eh?[biggrin]

I realise that those of you in WA are subject to being charged a lot for similar work closer to the Eastern States for freight etc in that some unscrupulous traders can have you by the nuts. ie. Take it or leave it stuff..

Labour rates here for indies I've used are around $100-$120/hr, regardless of the marque.
That being for various cars I've had including a Jeep Cherokee, an Audi TT and the D4.
In fact, I had an aircon evap unit go in the Cherokee. I was quoted $200 for the part, and eight hours to get it out - also behind the dashboard - and fit it all back together. For a 99 model XJ worth about $2500, I didn't bother.
I think I'm fortunate to have dealt with mostly scrupulous traders. [bigsmile1]

[4bee]

And, I'm not saying they aren't around...just that there are some who wish to be overnight squillionaires There is one in Adelaide I wouldn't touch again with your gear stick. [biggrin]

Fortunately I had a mechanical background passed on to me by my old Dad who had been a Motor Vehicle Instructor in the Army & prior to his enlistment had spent a lot of time on Outback roads & having to do his own roadside repairs, so I was able to work on various vehicles from a 1924 501 FIAT (where you actually had to spray Kero & light oil onto the metal discs of the clutch) & including Vauxhalls, Austins, Holden HR up to my D1 but I did invest in a Service Manual & a torque wrench for that one.
Also have restored my '66 2A & apart from a leaking clutch master cylinder at the mo, she's been a good vehicle. Have just got the repair kit & that is due to be done over the next week or so.

The worst things that happened with the D1 was the Coolant bottle blew out & the odd Factory supplied oil Leaks.

[Narangga]

No thanks, I'll stick to my block of ice on the front seat with a 12v fan blowing over it. Ok for short trips.[biggrin][biggrin]

I needed the ice on the head to help me cool down [bigsad]

[DazzaTD5]

As has been mentioned already...

*yes compressor runs all the time.
*normally its the valve on the side of the compressor that sticks.
*a/c guys that are familiar with the disco compressor can change them out in place.
*often your local indy Land Rover repairer can steer you towards a good a/c guy they use.

[DiscoJeffster]

As has been mentioned already...

*yes compressor runs all the time.
*normally its the valve on the side of the compressor that sticks.
*a/c guys that are familiar with the disco compressor can change them out in place.
*often your local indy Land Rover repairer can steer you towards a good a/c guy they use.

Yep. They evacuate the system, release the circlip holding the valve in then fill the system with nitrogen to effective blast the valve out of the compressor. Insert new valve, vacuum system and recharge. Around $700 is the typical asking price though I feel it’s worth about 2/3 of that fee. I think there is a Land Rover tax applied. The valve is only $100.

[4bee]

How many hours jeffster? That procedure doesn't sound like it takes all that long does it?











I rest my case M'lud.[biggrin]

Living where we do we also have a Tax, only we call it the "Stirling Tax" as everything that has to come up the freeway to the shops here seems to have an extra $2 added to the price.

Thing is, it probably only costs that for a whole parcel of stuff not each packaged item. Ned Kelly is supposedly dead & shopkeepers remain schtum.

[INter674]

Mmmm...move to Tassie to experience the true tyranny of distance...whether real or invented😐