Now we wait as well!

[Art]

2 weeks ago my 2014 Disco 4 SDV6 suddenly developed a clatter in the engine. Got my JLR dealer to check it out. Diagnosis is snapped crankshaft near #1 cylinder. Recommended remedy, new engine. I was a bit surprised as the car has done 59k and has had all its services.

I've asked the dealer to approach JLR Australia for help as its obviously a design/manufacturing fault and same problem has occurred before to quite a few other Disco 3 and 4s. Just praying that they will come to the party like they did with M005!

Cheers I will keep you posted!

[Art]

I spoke to my indy. Seems he has 2 Disco 4s in line for a engine replacement already. Cost using 2nd hand engine 25k plus. New engine is twice that. There seems no logic as to which engines fail. But danger period seems to be 50k to 100k. Ones past that seem to be less likely to fail?

[DiscoDB]

Not a good or fun position to be in.

One thing to consider - if you can get a new engine then you should end up with the modified parts, like the improved crank design, which Ford put into the F-150. Plus a new engine should come with a warranty. In this regard M005 probably won the lottery.

If you get a second hand engine, then you are back to the same level of risk as you originally had with no warranty.

A rebuilt engine with a new modified crank and a warranty would be a good alternative but you have to make sure you know where the parts are sourced from. If the engine rebuilder won’t prove where the parts came from - don’t deal with them.

Well worth pursuing your claim first before committing to any repair.

Good luck.

[Art]

Not a good or fun position to be in.

One thing to consider - if you can get a new engine then you should end up with the modified parts, like the improved crank design, which Ford put into the F-150. Plus a new engine should come with a warranty. In this regard M005 probably won the lottery.

If you get a second hand engine, then you are back to the same level of risk as you originally had with no warranty.

A rebuilt engine with a new modified crank and a warranty would be a good alternative but you have to make sure you know where the parts are sourced from. If the engine rebuilder won’t prove where the parts came from - don’t deal with them.

Well worth pursuing your claim first before committing to any repair.

Good luck.Thanks DiscoDB

Just had call from local dealer. JLR Australia has agreed to provide all parts free of charge and I pay for installation only. Circa $10 K assume. Still a big win outcome! I'm very grateful to JLR Australia as its all good will! Still if you buy 2nd hand D4, buy it from a dealer who has first sold it and make sure all services are by JLR!

[DiscoDB]

Great outcome. Sounds like JLR are truly coming to the party at present.

Fully agree with your comment if buying a D4 with the 3.0L - only buy from a JLR dealer, make sure it has been fully serviced by them, and I would add - discuss warranty up front (stated and implied).

[Art]

Yes, discuss with JLR before deciding on repair of Disco 4 crank. They may be prepared to assist for good will.

[Birdboy]

Does this issue seem to mostly happen in SDV6 as opposed to TDV6 in D4 or is it random?

[M005]

Sorry to hear this happened to you too, but glad you got a positive outcome too. I've been told the new LR Engine comes with a 12 month warranty, not sure why its not 3 years like they offered when the vehicle was new, but better than nothing and hopefully comes with modified parts.

Which dealer is your at?

@Birdboy - it seems that it is the 3.0 V6 that it happens too and doesn't matter whether it is in TDV6, SDV6 or RRS tune.

I'm tempted to ask if they can put a SDV6 tune on mine, given it's exactly the same engine in the MY15 D4's.

[goldey]

Glad to hear that they have come to the party for you Art. Ours is humming along very nicely since the replacement (almost 2000k's ago now). I imagine we may not have had as good an outcome if we'd held the line with JLR as ours was much older and more kms than yours and M005's. Good outcome none the less.

As much as I shudder at the $16k we're out of pocket, the result is a much better vehicle than anything at twice the cost on the market. Happy Disco 4 owner.

[M005]

Ours is humming along very nicely since the replacement (almost 2000k's ago now).

As much as I shudder at the $16k we're out of pocket, the result is a much better vehicle than anything at twice the cost on the market. Happy Disco 4 owner.

Have / do you have any issues with trusting the vehicle again?

I'm hoping that I can fall in love with it again and have 100% confidence in it, as I can't think of anything else I would want to drive instead without it feeling like a step down.

[goldey]

Trust is a funny thing. At the moment most of my trust in driving the vehicle is based on what my LR Indy has done and told me about with the new (2nd hand) motor g/box combo. There is an element of 'ostrich' trust as well (stick my head in the sand and hope it goes away type trust).

Like you though I love the way the vehicle drives and rides, the feel of the interior and the the way it makes me feel when I drive it. Whether it's on the road or on the beach or along some firetrails. It's a bloody good car, albeit with some idiosynchratic items, but what car does not have issues or hurdles to overcome? The alternatives for me are not palatable and that's where the conversation usually always comes back to with the Toyota or Nissan or Mitsi lovers. You makes your choice and enjoy it for what it is.

[AS355]

Well done Art. I’ve been fighting with JRA for over 12 mths with the same issue and no luck. Hopefully your thread might help with my argument. Looking at the history of these failures worldwide there should be no argument about replacing these engines when they fail. Mine also at 59k. **** poor I say.

[nixo]

Still if you buy 2nd hand D4, buy it from a dealer who has first sold it and make sure all services are by JLR!

What does buying from the original dealer who's done the service guarantee? From my knowledge of this problem it guarantees nothing as there is no clear pattern.

Really good to hear JRL coming to the party on this... whew eh? Sad to see that whether they do or don't is random... doesn't inspire any confidence.

[nixo]

Not a good or fun position to be in.
One thing to consider - if you can get a new engine then you should end up with the modified parts, like the improved crank design, which Ford put into the F-150. Plus a new engine should come with a warranty. In this regard M005 probably won the lottery.


DiscoDB - are you saying if you order a new 3.0 D4 engine from JLR you will get the one Ford has redesigned for the F-150?

[DiscoDB]

DiscoDB - are you saying if you order a new 3.0 D4 engine from JLR you will get the one Ford has redesigned for the F-150?

If the statements by Ford about what they did to improve the engine for the F-150 are correct, then yes JLR was meant to have benefited from this according to Ford.

Quote from article on this:

During design, changes were made to common components that Ford shares with JLR's variants of the engine. "For example, we put many updates and tweaks important to the durability of the engine into the crankshaft line. JLR also received the benefit of those updates," Pumford told us. "Other parts of the Ford engine are entirely new, like the block, EGR system, and a different fuel system. Everything existing (in the older engine family) was modified for F-150."

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1905-deep-dive-fords-1-5l-3-0l-diesel-engines/

These changes were made for the 2018 F-150, so if the new engine was manufactured after this point you would hope it has the new improved crank design.

No guarantees on this given JLR could have also bought up all the old design engines that Ford won’t use, and now are effectively consuming this old stock.

All speculation - would be good if when the garages doing the work for Art and M005 could confirm when the “new” engines had been assembled.

I have no doubt that JLR know exactly which cranks they have used and what the true story is - but don’t expect them to give out this information.

[gavinwibrow]

Thanks DiscoDB

Just had call from local dealer. JLR Australia has agreed to provide all parts free of charge and I pay for installation only. Circa $10 K assume. Still a big win outcome! I'm very grateful to JLR Australia as its all good will! Still if you buy 2nd hand D4, buy it from a dealer who has first sold it and make sure all services are by JLR!

If the car has only done 60K km in 5/6 years and been fully serviced during that period, I would have expected the inclusion of installation as well as replacement under the fit for purpose warranty underpinnings, or am I missing something?

[AS355]

That’s my angle at the moment. 59k from such an engine Nowa days is not fit for purpose in my eyes. Especially given the history of these failures. Been at them for over 12 mths. Still living in hope. A David and Goliath fight I think.

[Art]

Sorry to hear this happened to you too, but glad you got a positive outcome too. I've been told the new LR Engine comes with a 12 month warranty, not sure why its not 3 years like they offered when the vehicle was new, but better than nothing and hopefully comes with modified parts.

Which dealer is your at?

@Birdboy - it seems that it is the 3.0 V6 that it happens too and doesn't matter whether it is in TDV6, SDV6 or RRS tune.

I'm tempted to ask if they can put a SDV6 tune on mine, given it's exactly the same engine in the MY15 D4's.Mine's at Brisbane City JLR.

[Art]

Have / do you have any issues with trusting the vehicle again?

I'm hoping that I can fall in love with it again and have 100% confidence in it, as I can't think of anything else I would want to drive instead without it feeling like a step down.Yeah M005, a bit concerned that if it happened once can it happen again! Still, I don't want to spend $100-$120k to get into a D5 or new Defender. I really like the D4. It suits me to a t.

[Art]

What does buying from the original dealer who's done the service guarantee? From my knowledge of this problem it guarantees nothing as there is no clear pattern.

Really good to hear JRL coming to the party on this... whew eh? Sad to see that whether they do or don't is random... doesn't inspire any confidence.I don't know why some claims are successful and others not? My guess is that having the dealer fight the case for you is important and if its one of their originally sold cars and always serviced by them then it carries more weight?

[Eric SDV6SE]

Thanks DiscoDB

Just had call from local dealer. JLR Australia has agreed to provide all parts free of charge and I pay for installation only. Circa $10 K assume. Still a big win outcome! I'm very grateful to JLR Australia as its all good will! Still if you buy 2nd hand D4, buy it from a dealer who has first sold it and make sure all services are by JLR!

Be aware that the main (i.e not the only reason) for crank/main bearing failure appears to be the long service intervals. 24000km on a synthetic 5w30 oil for a close tolerance, high torque diesel is too long in my opinion. 10000km max service intervals and using quality spec oil seems to help.

So a dealer serviced D3 or D4 would have had only about half the required oil changes.

Tdv6 or sdv6 D3 or D4 doesn't seem to matter.

I'm at 205k km still going strong ( touch wood) sdv6 se with mild tune and 10000km oil changes.

[Art]

If the car has only done 60K km in 5/6 years and been fully serviced during that period, I would have expected the inclusion of installation as well as replacement under the fit for purpose warranty underpinnings, or am I missing something?I don't know what was different between M005s claim and mine. Maybe level of mods? Service history differences? Which side we part our hair?

[Art]

Be aware that the main (i.e not the only reason) for crank/main bearing failure appears to be the long service intervals. 24000km on a synthetic 5w30 oil for a close tolerance, high torque diesel is too long in my opinion. 10000km max service intervals and using quality spec oil seems to help.

So a dealer serviced D3 or D4 would have had only about half the required oil changes.

Tdv6 or sdv6 D3 or D4 doesn't seem to matter.

I'm at 205k km still going strong ( touch wood) sdv6 se with mild tune and 10000km oil changes.Agreed. I don't do many kms, so will get service every year which equates to 10k.

[DiscoDB]

Agreed. I don't do many kms, so will get service every year which equates to 10k.

This is a good point - I presume it is 24,000kms OR 12 Months - so which ever comes first.

Most D4’s are probably averaging closer to 18,000kms a year and not 24,000kms.

Interestingly it used to only be Europe that this applied to, and the Rest of World was still 13,000kms or 6 months.

[PerthDisco]

Interestingly it used to only be Europe that this applied to, and the Rest of World was still 13,000kms or 6 months.

As is my D3 which has had 6 months at an average of 9,000 km since new.

While this is no doubt conservative for the bottom end it’s components like the turbo that benefit in the long run and maybe EGRs as I’ve got a long run out of them.

[nixo]

I don't know why some claims are successful and others not? My guess is that having the dealer fight the case for you is important and if its one of their originally sold cars and always serviced by them then it carries more weight?

Okay yes I see, that could well be true. Won't really help the bulk of us who don't have that provenance.

[nixo]

If the statements by Ford about what they did to improve the engine for the F-150 are correct, then yes JLR was meant to have benefited from this according to Ford.

Quote from article on this:

During design, changes were made to common components that Ford shares with JLR's variants of the engine. "For example, we put many updates and tweaks important to the durability of the engine into the crankshaft line. JLR also received the benefit of those updates," Pumford told us. "Other parts of the Ford engine are entirely new, like the block, EGR system, and a different fuel system. Everything existing (in the older engine family) was modified for F-150."

Deep Dive: Ford’s 1.5L and 3.0L Diesel Engines (http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1905-deep-dive-fords-1-5l-3-0l-diesel-engines/)

These changes were made for the 2018 F-150, so if the new engine was manufactured after this point you would hope it has the new improved crank design.

No guarantees on this given JLR could have also bought up all the old design engines that Ford won’t use, and now are effectively consuming this old stock.

All speculation - would be good if when the garages doing the work for Art and M005 could confirm when the “new” engines had been assembled.

I have no doubt that JLR know exactly which cranks they have used and what the true story is - but don’t expect them to give out this information.

Interesting, thanks. No doubt JLR know exactly what's going on. Seems like what they're doing is counter productive to their brand... but I guess the bean counters have been hard at work and decided it's financially better for them to say noting and not own the issue.

F-150 changed or not I just don't think I could bring myself to fork out 40k for a new engine. It's a real conundrum this crank issue.

[hiker]

Interesting, thanks. No doubt JLR know exactly what's going on. Seems like what they're doing is counter productive to their brand... but I guess the bean counters have been hard at work and decided it's financially better for them to say noting and not own the issue.

F-150 changed or not I just don't think I could bring myself to fork out 40k for a new engine. It's a real conundrum this crank issue.

Mine's a 15/16 3.0 D4 - and I agree with the conundrum. Problem is selling a vehicle with a pending $40k spend ($$ + time + angst)

My extended warranty expires in Feb 21 and I wonder if there's a tried and tested 3rd party extended warranty which may be good insurance?

[Art]

Mine's a 15/16 3.0 D4 - and I agree with the conundrum. Problem is selling a vehicle with a pending $40k spend ($$ + time + angst)

My extended warranty expires in Feb 21 and I wonder if there's a tried and tested 3rd party extended warranty which may be good insurance?I got my D4 back! Its now got a new long motor installed. I asked about in what way it was upgraded from the original, and specifically if the crank was different and stronger, but was unable to get any specific info. Warranty is 1 year

I also have an extended warranty product called Zooper, but it of limiteded usefulness as max claim is $3k but you can get fixed price minor service for $330.

I'll certainly be getting the engine serviced regularly at 10k, or 1 year.

[PeterOZ]

I got my D4 back! Its now got a new long motor installed. I asked about in what way it was upgraded from the original, and specifically if the crank was different and stronger, but was unable to get any specific info. Warranty is 1 year

I also have an extended warranty product called Zooper, but it of limiteded usefulness as max claim is $3k but you can get fixed price minor service for $330.

I'll certainly be getting the engine serviced regularly at 10k, or 1 year.

I'd be selling it

[M005]

I'd be selling it


Why?

I've just had my engine replaced by LR too and am wrangling with whether I can trust the vehicle again, but people keep telling me I effectively have a new D4.

[scarry]

Interesting, thanks. No doubt JLR know exactly what's going on.e.

Correct,together with the engine manufacturer and design engineers.

Something was done to the D4 2.7,which was also used in the Territory,to uprate it as there are very few or no known crankshaft issues with the engine in these vehicles.

I don’t know how LR get away with the issue,it’s been going on from 2010 in D4 until now in the D5.
And it also occurred in the D3 2.7L.

Just imagine the uproar in the media if it was happening to a high volume garden variety vehicle.

[RobMichelle]

I'd be selling it

Can ya wait till feb [emoji41]

[Turtle60]

So reading this thread and a few others I’m left wondering if there are definable failure percentages.
Like is this a 1 in a hundred vehicle issue or better or worse
I look at the car now and it almost cowers down like a guilty dog. A catastrophic failure in town is one thing but in the middle of the CSR or the Simpson is very dangerous or prrhaps life threatening to just downright ludicrously expensive. You’ve just added another 5k to the repair

[BradC]

So reading this thread and a few others I’m left wondering if there are definable failure percentages.

I reckon Land Rover and Ford are the only ones who have real figures, and they are keeping quiet.
The rest is anecdotal bickering.

[PerthDisco]

I reckon Land Rover and Ford are the only ones who have real figures, and they are keeping quiet.
The rest is anecdotal bickering.

I watch Hoovies Garage on YouTube and he uses two mechanics for his repairs, Car Wizard and Car Ninja the latter who specialises in BMWs. A lot of Ninja talk centres on how complex and failure prone modern BMWs are requiring expensive tear down repairs for common faults like valve seals and rocker cover gaskets etc. Also, many engines have locked up and discussion around the extended oil service intervals.

Made the LR issues seem small in comparison.

Here’s a sample to watch from about 2:30 as it will make you feel a lot better about LRs.

Here's Why BMW Mechanics Are Richer Than Most BMW Owners - YouTube (https://youtu.be/rjBwejZQios)

I’m currently doing a top end rebuild, timing belt service water pump, sump gasket and every conceivable oring and seal on my brothers a 1989 325i and just like the video what a dream to work on. I remember seeing these cars new in the 80s and thinking only an astrophysicist could work on one but a few bolts and pipes and that’s pretty much it. Heaps of room. Things have changed enormously in 30 years.

[loanrangie]

I reckon Land Rover and Ford are the only ones who have real figures, and they are keeping quiet.
The rest is anecdotal bickering.

Most figures i've read are in the 1-2% range but who knows how close that is or isn't.

[nixo]

Most figures i've read are in the 1-2% range but who knows how close that is or isn't.

Yes agree it’s 1-2 from what I’ve read... but as you say who knows. Best confirmation of the figure is response from JLR South Africa in response to a law suit, they admitted issue affected just under 2%.

The fanboys will have you think this number is so low you don’t have to worry about it much. Really? So you’d be happy to spin the barrel on a 100 chamber revolver with 2 bullets in? 2 in 100 needing a very expensive engine replacement is not insignificant in my book.

The other confirmation of the seriousness of the issue in general is the South Korean government seemly forcing JLR into a recall. Not sure this has fully played out as yet.

[nixo]

Correct,together with the engine manufacturer and design engineers.

Something was done to the D4 2.7,which was also used in the Territory,to uprate it as there are very few or no known crankshaft issues with the engine in these vehicles.

I don’t know how LR get away with the issue,it’s been going on from 2010 in D4 until now in the D5.
And it also occurred in the D3 2.7L.

Just imagine the uproar in the media if it was happening to a high volume garden variety vehicle.

Scarry I’ve also heard this. Do you know of any real evidence that supports the theory that the issue is resolved in the 2.7 D4 or is it just anecdotal?

[loanrangie]

Scarry I’ve also heard this. Do you know of any real evidence that supports the theory that the issue is resolved in the 2.7 D4 or is it just anecdotal?

I don't believe there are any technical upgrades to the Terri motor apart from the strengthened oil pump casting and minor updates, the Terri is nearly half the weight of a disco so is much less stressed.

[scarry]

Scarry I’ve also heard this. Do you know of any real evidence that supports the theory that the issue is resolved in the 2.7 D4 or is it just anecdotal?

Only what I have seen here and on other forums,and comments by Dazza,MR auto,and JC,all LR Indie repairers.

I wouldn’t believe the weight of the vehicle has anything to do with the issue.

[Pippin]

Only what I have seen here and on other forums,and comments by Dazza,MR auto,and JC,all LR Indie repairers.

I wouldn’t believe the weight of the vehicle has anything to do with the issue. I disagree with this statement simply because the greater mass of the vehicle means greater loads on the crank and bearings to propel it at a satisfactory rate.

[scarry]

I disagree with this statement simply because the greater mass of the vehicle means greater loads on the crank and bearings to propel it at a satisfactory rate.

Sure a greater mass will increase stress on the whole vehicle,including the engine,to a degree.
We are talking about 750 KG,thereabouts.
But if the engine can’t take a bit more work,it isn’t worth 2 cents,and has an issue.
And it’s not fit for propose.
It’s fitted to vehicles that are designed to tow 3.5T(not Territory)and many do,without issues.
There are also Territories around loaded pulling vans with no issues as well.

All we are doing here is guessing,Ford and LR know what the issue is,but we will never know the full facts.
More than likely it’s a design or manufacturing issue,although as said,the D4 2.7 seems to not have the issue for whatever reason,as did the Ford Territory.
There was chatter about the bottom end on these 2.7l engines being different than the earlier runs,but whether that is correct I don’t know.
But there is definitely something different,or some would be failing.

[Tombie]

Yes agree it’s 1-2 from what I’ve read... but as you say who knows. Best confirmation of the figure is response from JLR South Africa in response to a law suit, they admitted issue affected just under 2%.

The fanboys will have you think this number is so low you don’t have to worry about it much. Really? So you’d be happy to spin the barrel on a 100 chamber revolver with 2 bullets in? 2 in 100 needing a very expensive engine replacement is not insignificant in my book.

The other confirmation of the seriousness of the issue in general is the South Korean government seemly forcing JLR into a recall. Not sure this has fully played out as yet.

Any worse than Toyota for example?

Try injectors @ $8k a set
Try steering rack - $7k
Or alternator and starter - $3k+
The LHS IHI suffering FOD is also extremely common on any used offroad. The KDSS has to be removed to access much of the gear underneath.

And all very common failures and all very expensive.
And yes, at least as common as 2 in 100.

[Vern]

Any worse than Toyota for example?

Try injectors @ $8k a set
Try steering rack - $7k
Or alternator and starter - $3k+
The LHS IHI suffering FOD is also extremely common on any used offroad. The KDSS has to be removed to access much of the gear underneath.

And all very common failures and all very expensive.
And yes, at least as common as 2 in 100.Don't forget the 1vd engines as well, they would easily be 2% of failures

[scarry]

Any worse than Toyota for example?

Try injectors @ $8k a set
Try steering rack - $7k
Or alternator and starter - $3k+
The LHS IHI suffering FOD is also extremely common on any used offroad. The KDSS has to be removed to access much of the gear underneath.

And all very common failures and all very expensive.
And yes, at least as common as 2 in 100.

But have a look at the value of the vehicles(D4/LC200) second hand, that is apples for apples, say MY2010,same condition,K's,etc

One with say,an engine failure, is not far off being scrapped, where the other is probably worth fixing.

Not taking sides, just saying.

All vehicles have issues at times, its the % that have the issues that is a concern.
And unfortunately,most issues in modern vehicles are expensive, no matter what brand.

[scarry]

Don't forget the 1vd engines as well, they would easily be 2% of failures

Not trying to cause an argument, but that is a huge call, any figures to back it up?

Failures due to a manufacturing issue?

Or including older engines no one knows the real issue or the history of them or the actual failure issue.

Sales figures of vehicles with 1VD are hard to find, but working on say,25K sold a year(vague approximately) in Aus, all models, surely if 500 a year failed, there would be a huge outcry on social media and in the media?

[DiscoDB]

Not trying to cause an argument, but that is a huge call, any figures to back it up?

Failures due to a manufacturing issue?

Or including older engines no one knows the real issue or the history of them or the actual failure issue.

Sales figures of vehicles with 1VD are hard to find, but working on say,25K sold a year(vague approximately) in Aus, all models, surely if 500 a year failed, there would be a huge outcry on social media and in the media?

This really depends on the age (kms) of the failure as well.

All engines fail at some point (unless proactively rebuilt before they fail) - there was a time where it was normal for a used car to be on to its second or third engine and its second gearbox.

2% failure rate over an average of say 300K would not cause any outrage and would be considered to be expected.

It is the 1% failure rate in the first 100K that would generate concern.

This is somewhat dated data but gives an indication of the overall level of engine failures that an extended warranty company in the UK was seeing in 2013:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210110/054a4eb1cc63cc91825900046757a654.jpg

Note: an engine failure could be anything from a relatively low cost part, or say head gasket failure, to a full catastrophic failure - but from this you can conclude that catastrophic failures would have been LESS than these figures - but of course individual engine types across a specific brand could be higher.

Of note is Peugeot (PSA) don’t rate well.

[Art]

This really depends on the age (kms) of the failure as well.

All engines fail at some point (unless proactively rebuilt before they fail) - there was a time where it was normal for a used car to be on to its second or third engine and its second gearbox.

2% failure rate over an average of say 300K would not cause any outrage and would be considered to be expected.

It is the 1% failure rate in the first 100K that would generate concern.

This is somewhat dated data but gives an indication of the overall level of engine failures that an extended warranty company in the UK was seeing in 2013:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210110/054a4eb1cc63cc91825900046757a654.jpg

Note: an engine failure could be anything from a relatively low cost part, or say head gasket failure, to a full catastrophic failure - but from this you can conclude that catastrophic failures would have been LESS than these figures - but of course individual engine types across a specific brand could be higher.

Of note is Peugeot (PSA) don’t rate well.Hmmm....? I wonder what the probability is of my new engine failing again given the first died at 60k?

[DiscoJeffster]

Hmmm....? I wonder what the probability is of my new engine failing again given the first died at 60k?

Well mine is at 288k km no worries. Look for a positive

[BradC]

Well mine is at 288k km no worries. Look for a positive

Would it be if you hadn’t had the bearings replaced?

[DiscoJeffster]

Would it be if you hadn’t had the bearings replaced?

Well that was 10,000km ago. It’s still a good innings before being cared for

[DiscoDB]

Hmmm....? I wonder what the probability is of my new engine failing again given the first died at 60k?

Should note the data quoted was from 2013.

But if the new engine gets the improvements Ford made to the crank design for the F-150, then the odds should be better than they were with your original engine.

Assuming of course that JLR used the improved rotating components and are not using up old stock.

[DiscoJeffster]

Should note the data quoted was from 2013.

But if the new engine gets the improvements Ford made to the crank design for the F-150, then the odds should be better than they were with your original engine.

Assuming of course that JLR used the improved rotating components and are not using up old stock.

They won’t be updating it or using new designed components - It’ll be old stock unquestionably. Given the chances of failure are pretty remote (though better chances than first division in the lotto I admit), the chances of owning two engines that fail is pretty unlikely, or statistically speaking - infinitesimally low.

[TuffRR]

They won’t be updating it or using new designed components - It’ll be old stock unquestionably. Given the chances of failure are pretty remote (though better chances than first division in the lotto I admit), the chances of owning two engines that fail is pretty unlikely, or statistically speaking - infinitesimally low.

Sort of. There is just as much chance that the second one will fail as there was the first. ie gambler's fallacy.

:whistling:

[DiscoJeffster]

Sort of. There is just as much chance that the second one will fail as there was the first. ie gambler's fallacy.

:whistling:

The statement wasn’t about the engine, but that one person will have two failures in their ownership. This is a case of JOINT probability eg that one person can have two failures, or in other words that one person can roll two sixes in a row.

Roll a die (1 cube) that gives a 6. Then roll a die that again gives 6. Those two events are independent, so we apply JOINT probability (AND condition). The overall probability is the PRODUCT of each independent probabilities.

P(1st die=6) = 1/6 AND P(2nd die=6)

= 1/6 * 1/6 = 1/36 = JOINT probability of rolling a single die 6, two times in succession

[ian4002000]

My Hyandai Iload engine went very downhill at 200 K's. I then found many other Iloads engines had failed from around 120k's upwards. There were no second hand engine available at that time only new . Rebuilt engines are now available. Had to trade van in to get something else.

Makes Land Rover engines look pretty good compare to Iloads.

Ps only Iloads appeared to have the problem with there first model diesel engine. I had used synthetic oil and got a longer lifespan, those on cheap oils got much less K's

Ian
Bittern

[scarry]

My Hyandai Iload engine went very downhill at 200 K's. I then found many other Iloads engines had failed from around 120k's upwards. There were no second hand engine available at that time only new . Rebuilt engines are now available. Had to trade van in to get something else.

Makes Land Rover engines look pretty good compare to Iloads.

Ps only Iloads appeared to have the problem with there first model diesel engine. I had used synthetic oil and got a longer lifespan, those on cheap oils got much less K's

Ian
Bittern

You were unlucky, a mate has one that has done over 400 000K's.Probably the later one though.Services it himself.
Had one issue, fuel pick up strainer in tank clogged up with rubbish.
Runs all day, every day, most of the time loaded.

[Vern]

My Hyandai Iload engine went very downhill at 200 K's. I then found many other Iloads engines had failed from around 120k's upwards. There were no second hand engine available at that time only new . Rebuilt engines are now available. Had to trade van in to get something else.

Makes Land Rover engines look pretty good compare to Iloads.

Ps only Iloads appeared to have the problem with there first model diesel engine. I had used synthetic oil and got a longer lifespan, those on cheap oils got much less K's

Ian
BitternMines a 2013, bought it new, done 240kkm, finally had its first ever issue, turbo kicked the bucket, apparently known issue, that and injector seals on the earlier ones.
Engines are generally really good on these.
If i still worked for myself i'd definitely buy another over any other van on the market.

[ian4002000]

Mines a 2013, bought it new, done 240kkm, finally had its first ever issue, turbo kicked the bucket, apparently known issue, that and injector seals on the earlier ones.
Engines are generally really good on these.
If i still worked for myself i'd definitely buy another over any other van on the market.

I am happy to hear some people are getting a good run from their Iload.
Mine was a late 2011 and i think a lot of the early ones seemed to have problems. The dealers didnt say much when i was trading it in but they kept asking lots of questions about oil changes. I see someone has started a repair shop in Dandenong just doing Iload engine reconditioning. The prices quoted are very reasonable compared to what i was finding two years ago.
I would have recoed the engine if i could have at the time, but i wasnt going to spend 15K on a new engine from Hyandai.

Ian
Bittern

[Art]

I am happy to hear some people are getting a good run from their Iload.
Mine was a late 2011 and i think a lot of the early ones seemed to have problems. The dealers didnt say much when i was trading it in but they kept asking lots of questions about oil changes. I see someone has started a repair shop in Dandenong just doing Iload engine reconditioning. The prices quoted are very reasonable compared to what i was finding two years ago.
I would have recoed the engine if i could have at the time, but i wasnt going to spend 15K on a new engine from Hyandai.

Ian
BitternSo if D4 motor failure is estimated at 2% or .02 then 2 in a row should be statistically be .004%? or 4 in a thousand?

[DiscoJeffster]

0.02 x 0.02 = 0.0004 eg 4 in ten thousand. It’s unlikely lightning will strike twice to one individual, but obviously odds are just that.

[Art]

0.02 x 0.02 = 0.0004 eg 4 in ten thousand. It’s unlikely lightning will strike twice to one individual, but obviously odds are just that.Ok, my math is bad. I'm still traumatised by my forced study of statistics!

[nixo]

Interesting comments from all.

My issue with JLR is that they seem totally unwilling to acknowledge and address the issue and find the situation acceptable. Be a pretty sad state of affairs if all motor companies behaved the same way when it came to major issues. I’d like to think Toyota, with their continuous improvement to philosophy, would do something. Maybe I’m naive, but I had a mate who worked at Toyota in Japan for a while and he was categorical that they tried to make the best vehicles possible.

[Tombie]

Interesting comments from all.

My issue with JLR is that they seem totally unwilling to acknowledge and address the issue and find the situation acceptable. Be a pretty sad state of affairs if all motor companies behaved the same way when it came to major issues. I’d like to think Toyota, with their continuous improvement to philosophy, would do something. Maybe I’m naive, but I had a mate who worked at Toyota in Japan for a while and he was categorical that they tried to make the best vehicles possible.

Long gone methodology.

They now build to price like all of them.

The situation is acceptable, and Toyota has an accepted failure rate also. It’s impossible not to.

LR handle the situation whilst in (and just outside) warranty very well - which is their required commitment.
Try a Toyosan claim and see how many hoops they make you jump through.

[Eric SDV6SE]

So if D4 motor failure is estimated at 2% or .02 then 2 in a row should be statistically be .004%? or 4 in a thousand?

I think i posted about this before, if you consider the total amoumt of 2.7 l v6 engines and their derivatives produced by PSA, then look at only those fitted to LR's and then the estimated number of failures, the failure rate is around 0.05 to 0.1%.

Not ideal for the poor owner who suffers an engine failure, but seen from a mass produced, complex machinery point of view, a totally acceptable "out of spec" tolerance range.

Plus add to this the unknowns such as ab(use) in terms of heavy towing, extended oil service intervals (beyond even the LR 12months/24000km, then it is then in my view still commendable from LR to come to the party in some cases with covering some or all of the costs. Try getting that from any of the Japanese mo With an out of warranty vehicle.

My personal view is that the crank failures are a combination of too long service intervals specified, possible material defects (crank forgings/castings and main bearings, i.e. a "bad batch" ) from PSA's sub suppliers and assembly deficiencies (say production line hydraulic torque wrench out of calibration?)

If it truly was a design defect (i agree the missing tangs on the main bearing shells is not ideal, but this design is used in many other engine configurations) then we would be seeing many, many more failures.


All we can do is keep up the fresh, quality oil to these engines, service every 10000km or less and regularly check oil levels (no, there is no dipstick, thats a whole other can o'worms).

Just my 2c worth.

[Art]

I think i posted about this before, if you consider the total amoumt of 2.7 l v6 engines and their derivatives produced by PSA, then look at only those fitted to LR's and then the estimated number of failures, the failure rate is around 0.05 to 0.1%.

Not ideal for the poor owner who suffers an engine failure, but seen from a mass produced, complex machinery point of view, a totally acceptable "out of spec" tolerance range.

Plus add to this the unknowns such as ab(use) in terms of heavy towing, extended oil service intervals (beyond even the LR 12months/24000km, then it is then in my view still commendable from LR to come to the party in some cases with covering some or all of the costs. Try getting that from any of the Japanese mo With an out of warranty vehicle.

My personal view is that the crank failures are a combination of too long service intervals specified, possible material defects (crank forgings/castings and main bearings, i.e. a "bad batch" ) from PSA's sub suppliers and assembly deficiencies (say production line hydraulic torque wrench out of calibration?)

If it truly was a design defect (i agree the missing tangs on the main bearing shells is not ideal, but this design is used in many other engine configurations) then we would be seeing many, many more failures.


All we can do is keep up the fresh, quality oil to these engines, service every 10000km or less and regularly check oil levels (no, there is no dipstick, thats a whole other can o'worms).

Just my 2c worth.Yeah I agree. My Disco 4 only had 2 owners including me. It was in perfect order when I bought it just over 1 year before the motor failed. I doubt the previous owner had done any 4dw or towing before I got it. The service schedule was up to date and only 60k on the clock.
I only had 3 or 4 trips beach camping with no heavy towing, before the crank let go with no warning. So I doubt the abuse hypothesis.
But JLR did provide a new long motor and I paid only for fitting for a 6 year old vehicle. I thought that that was pretty good given it was way out of warranty.
I will now be super conservative with all future services. No more than 10k between oil changes and major service yearly. I can't see why I can't now 300k from this new engine now if I baby it!

[josh.huber]

No engine has ever liked being babied! Right foot down!!

[nixo]

Hmmm....? I wonder what the probability is of my new engine failing again given the first died at 60k?

2 in a 100 [wink11]

[PeterOZ]

The statement wasn’t about the engine, but that one person will have two failures in their ownership. This is a case of JOINT probability eg that one person can have two failures, or in other words that one person can roll two sixes in a row.

Roll a die (1 cube) that gives a 6. Then roll a die that again gives 6. Those two events are independent, so we apply JOINT probability (AND condition). The overall probability is the PRODUCT of each independent probabilities.

P(1st die=6) = 1/6 AND P(2nd die=6)

= 1/6 * 1/6 = 1/36 = JOINT probability of rolling a single die 6, two times in succession

you statistical maths are wrong. Google agrees with me. [biggrin]

Each event is an independent event. In addition, the chances of any number coming up twice in a row are [B]1/6, not 1/36. This is because there are six possible ways (opportunities) of getting the same number twice in a row: (1/6 x 1/6) x 6 = 6/36 = 1/6