Why do 2.7 cranks break?

[DiscoJeffster]

On another post a coupla months ago, GRAVY replaced his 3.0 litre cooler with a Nissen and said the quality was excellent.
Does anyone know if it is possible to buy a seal kit as such for a cooler?
All "O" rings and the middle seal?

There is a Chinese seal that you can find online for the internal unit. The external seals are readily available.

I also used the Nissen and it’s was seemingly fine quality.

[Discodicky]

There is a Chinese seal that you can find online for the internal unit. The external seals are readily available.

I also used the Nissen and it’s was seemingly fine quality.

Yes, Gravy alerted me to that Chinese seal, but its an awful lot of trouble to go to and find its quality is suspect.....may as well buy a new Nissens complete assy and be done with it I guess.
It would appear that LR don't supply an internal seal; I'll check with the Hobart Dealer next week.

[DiscoJeffster]

Yes, Gravy alerted me to that Chinese seal, but its an awful lot of trouble to go to and find its quality is suspect.....may as well buy a new Nissens complete assy and be done with it I guess.
It would appear that LR don't supply an internal seal; I'll check with the Hobart Dealer next week.

You’re correct. They don’t because they don’t manufacture the unit or service them.

[PerthDisco]

On another post a coupla months ago, GRAVY replaced his 3.0 litre cooler with a Nissen and said the quality was excellent.
Does anyone know if it is possible to buy a seal kit as such for a cooler?
All "O" rings and the middle seal?

Pretty sure Nissen is OEM supplier to LR? It’s the only brand AF sell. They are like the worlds biggest oil cooler and similar supplier to many manufacturers.

[Discodicky]

I mentioned this to a mechanic i know that works at a Ford dealership and he just laughed and said it was another myth probaly started by hi lux owners...

Certainly not saying he knows more than anyone else but he does work on them most days he tells me.

Bulletman

Your mechanic friend is obviously a very patriotic FORD fan. [thumbsupbig] [bigwhistle]
This problem is very well known and documented and has on many occasions caused extreme problems with mechanics if they take a smidgen too long to change the engine oil. Common fix is to add roughly 20 litres engine oil, get the pressure back, then quickly drain off the excess!. However I recently read of all that being done and more, yet still no oil pressure! Not sure what he did or if he ever overcame the problem. Also on Mazda BT50 with the same engine.

[DiscoDB]

An interesting observation from the LR Time crankshaft assembly video which gives us more clues as to why the 2.7 is prone to spinning bearings.

In the video Christian notes that the main bearing clearance should be between 0.038mm-0.050mm and this is what he achieved with the new bearings.

So this is equivalent to 1.5-2 thou clearance on 2.75inch journal. That is a tight tolerance. Old school rule of thumb is 1 thou clearance per 1 inch journal - so more like 2.75 thou or 0.07mm clearance minimum.

To run tighter clearances you need a couple of things in your favour - such as near perfect crank and engine block geometry and perfectly balanced crankshafts. [emoji848]

You also need to run a lower viscosity oil. [emoji33]

This is typically seen in modern engines which are chasing better fuel economy. The tighter tolerances allow you to run thinner oils and the reduced drag improves fuel economy. Furthermore, the thinner the oil, the smaller the hydrodynamic wedge, less oil flow is needed, and more fuel savings by running a smaller oil pump.

The downside is heat. The thinner the film of oil, the bearing runs hotter, wear can increase, and you make it all easier to spin a bearing. This probably explains why the oil pump flow capacity was updated - to improve bearing cooling.

Implications of this (other than just something to read on a lazy Tuesday).

For new engines, due to the tight clearance tolerances used, the 5W-30 was probably the right oil to start with if changed regularly. But a thinner oil with a bit of fuel dilution from extended oil change intervals and if the engine gets too hot, the oil thins out too much and you can get metal on metal contact which if you are unlucky can spin a bearing.

For worn in motors (outside of warranty), well if we have more bearing clearance it is because we have less bearing metal left and so the thicker 5W-40 oil with more wear protection additives (such as zinc) should be better.

But we just need to be aware that when the oil is cold, the flow rate will be lower, it takes longer to get oil flow and pressure up when you start the engine, this leads to greater wear on cold starts, plus we will also have a lot more drag on the bearing surface as the oil is potentially too thick (when cold) for the tighter bearing clearance, and theoretically this too could all cause a bearing to spin (if you are really unlucky). So keep the revs and engine load low until the oil is warm (should go without saying).

And it is not just the Ford/PSA TDV6 with the problem. The Fiat/Chrysler/VM Motori 3.0 V6 Turbo diesel found in the RAM 1500 also has a “spun bearing club”. Read some of the forums debating why these fail and you would think you are on a Land Rover forum.

[Tins]

Also on Mazda BT50 with the same engine.

Probably why the BT50 nows runs Isuzu gear.

[loanrangie]

Probably why the BT50 nows runs Isuzu gear.

A re-badged isuzu.

[loanrangie]

I was on a drive on Sunday, 3 x TDV6 D3's and 1 x D4 3.0ltr. mine was the only car with its original motor - not a good average.

[Tins]

A re-badged isuzu.

Indeed, rather than a re-badged Ranger.

[DiscoDB]

Received the MANN oil filter today. The OD measured across the o-ring on the spigot was 11.1mm

Removed the MAHLE filter - oil had already drained to the level of the drain hole (which is meant to be plugged by the spigot). But was happy to see it was completely flooded above the anti-drain valve.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/cd644c24c5003958cc675eef44bedeb3.jpg

By the way - this is fresh new oil that is already black from less than 1 hour of running - just shows how much oil is left behind during an oil change.

The OD of the MAHLE filter o-ring was 10.8mm.

This difference is only a fraction of a mm but exactly what people reported on Lr-club.com.

The MANN filter locked in nice and firm when fitting. Will have to get a Ryco filter next time to compare.

Normal 4 secs for oil light to go off first time, and then on re-start goes out as engine is cranking. After the weekend will park the car up for a few days to see if there is any change with the oil light off time. 🤞🤞🤞🤞

Meanwhile some more photo’s.

First is the hole in the housing just below the rubber seal. When you open up the filter 4-5 turns this not only lifts the filter element up and out of the drain hole, but this small hole in the housing is also exposed and allows air in so it drains off.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/fb14c09050c302a5201fe6866318f905.jpg

Next is the blocked filter bypass. As Brad suspected it does appear to be in the top of the housing cover itself. Does not look to be serviceable.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/98b2c9f6f62c602a8e3f4741115ec0c1.jpg

The photo is difficult to see, but it does look like a match for a typical bypass valve, but would have to pull out to truly know.

Just closing out a prior post. Finally received the genuine Ford Oil Filter today - took 2 weeks to travel across Melbourne. As Brad commented before, it is a MAHLE Oil filter but with some different markings on it.

The spigot o-ring measured 11.1mm - so the same as the MANN filter but bigger than the MAHLE filter I had previously fitted. It is possible that the previous MAHLE filter was just undersized.

As far as did this make any difference - for short duration parking (1-2 days) I would say yes, but for extended periods parked up it makes no difference. So perhaps time to consider replacing the oil housing.

When changing the oil filter, just worthwhile checking the new filter spigot o-ring is not under size and it locks in nice and firm when fitting.

[PerthDisco]

Latest instalment of the rebuild and startup by LR Time is now on YouTube. He did an excellent job.

To follow will be some videos on the oil system which will be very interesting. I’m pretty confident he will be digging in to the startup delay and non return valves.

[loanrangie]

Yeah just watched it and glad to see the hard work has paid off.

[DiscoDB]

Land Rover Discovery 3 / 4 - Epic Oil pump test and compare TDV6 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/z6sRSSltG8I)

Very interesting oil pump video to finish off the engine rebuild from LR Time.

Was an interesting video but light on for making any proper technical conclusions, and Christian added nothing to the theories on why Fabian’s 2.7 spun a bearing. The two tests they did proved very little in my mind - seemed to be more about showcasing Christian’s fabrication skills.

Was expecting some comments on if they consider if the oil pump should have a check valve to stop it draining off the oil overnight when parked up, or if they consider the lower capacity oil pump contributed to Fabian’s engine failure.

Hope they come back with a final close out on this topic.

[PerthDisco]

Was an interesting video but light on for making any proper technical conclusions, and Christian added nothing to the theories on why Fabian’s 2.7 spun a bearing. The two tests they did proved very little in my mind - seemed to be more about showcasing Christian’s fabrication skills.

Was expecting some comments on if they consider if the oil pump should have a check valve to stop it draining off the oil overnight when parked up, or if they consider the lower capacity oil pump contributed to Fabian’s engine failure.

Hope they come back with a final close out on this topic.

He picked up on the NRV in the oil filter / cooler housing inlet consistent with our discussion here and the flow of oil through the filter and out through the middle spear.

So, all that can drain is the oil below the cooler housing in the front of the block above the pump which is a short tube (the oil in the cooler is horizontal and can’t drain).

The leak down test showed it’s not a straight drop out out but a slow drain over hours but - and this was interesting to me - the pump at 1bar pushes 2.5 litres in just over 8 seconds.

So, to fill oil back through the gallery up to the cooler and filter, which stays full, would be a microsecond.

The delay getting pressure is on the supply side after the oil filter going through the delivery side.

The argument for a check valve on the oil pump side seems unnecessary to me.

[DiscoDB]

Even your comments PD discusses more theories than LR Time did. [emoji41]

So in the interest of triggering more discussion and hopefully learning more, I will add my comments. [emoji851]

Not so sure about the micro seconds to refill - if this was true then it should not take 2-4 seconds just to get the oil pressure back up above 0.5-0.7bar (the oil light switch setting).

If the true volume to refill the oil pump, galleries, and oil cooler/oil housing is more like 0.5l then this explains why it takes around 2 seconds to get oil pressure back if all is in good condition (good flowing pump, oil housing not seeping oil through drain plug or check valve) - but does not explain why some people see longer times than this when the car has been sitting for an extended period, or if this contributed to why Fabian’s managed to spin a bearing.

A flow and pressure test at “cranking speed” would have been insightful and probably confirm why Fabian’s failed. They could still do this for a future video.

Strangely it was the original 2006 pump that seemed to perform the best on the drain down test. This showed the new FAI pump was not good and was no better than the worn and potentially damaged pump from Fabian’s engine.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220111/afbd99673afc43fadbdf5dc68448518a.jpg

This screenshot actually looks like the new FAI pump had drained down more oil than even the worn aftermarket pump. With hot oil I bet the difference is even more pronounced.

The other note was the flow rates between the new and old pumps were not that different despite the 10% increase in size. The difference in measured flow rate was only 2% - even Vera said it was the same but Christian was convinced otherwise (and joked with video editing they will show it to be better - even then it was only just a bit better).

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220111/16a792ff17e82821fcc08359305403cc.jpg

The difference was 298ml/s vs 291ml/s with the back-pressure PCV set at the same point.

A new larger impeller pump which only delivers 2% more flow compared to an old worn pump can not be right - once it is worn and has more back flow and drops a bit of operating pressure it will perform no better than the smaller impeller pump.

At some stage he needs to get a new Ford 15mm pump and redo the flow test.

It is good they confirmed some points but the only new bit of info for me was don’t buy an aftermarket/non-OEM oil pump (we generally assume that), and yet he still fitted the poorer quality FAI pump to Fabian’s engine on the basis that it delivered 2% higher flow rate than the worn and old smaller pump. [emoji848]

Love their work - just was a lost opportunity on where I thought (or hoped) they were taking this and his testing actually showed more issues that raise more questions.

David: “I give it 3 stars - what do you think Margaret?”
⭐️ ⭐️⭐️

[BradC]

Not so sure about the micro seconds to refill - if this was true then it should not take 2-4 seconds just to get the oil pressure back up above 0.5-0.7bar (the oil light switch setting).


How long does it take to pump up the hydraulic lifters?
edit: and fill all the galleries?

[101RRS]

Not so sure about the micro seconds to refill - if this was true then it should not take 2-4 seconds just to get the oil pressure back up above 0.5-0.7bar (the oil light switch setting).


I can only speak to my own experience but the only time my engine takes 2-4 seconds for the oil pressure light to go out is when I have done an oil/filter change. At other times it is always less than 2 secs.

Garry

[DiscoDB]

I can only speak to my own experience but the only time my engine takes 2-4 seconds for the oil pressure light to go out is when I have done an oil/filter change. At other times it is always less than 2 secs.

Garry

Your experience is correct Garry and how I believe it should be.

Some people though (at least on some forums) see more like 4 seconds after sitting idle for some time, so presumably this is over 1l of oil needed to refill everything - like when doing an oil and filter change.

There was a Territory 2.7 failure discussed on the Ford Forum which had been experiencing extended oil light off intervals before failure and I believe even Ford was unable to work out what was happening. It too spun bearings.

This is the mystery which many have failed to explain. In Russia some smart people have been going to extreme lengths to solve this problem. Probably why someone developed the 19mm oil pump - but this sounds over the top.

[DiscoDB]

How long does it take to pump up the hydraulic lifters?
edit: and fill all the galleries?

From what I have read, if all is good 1-2 seconds max. If something has changed (including after an oil and filter change) then it is more like 4+ seconds.

Most people probably don’t even observe this.

[DiscoJeffster]

From what I have read, if all is good 1-2 seconds max. If something has changed (including after an oil and filter change) then it is more like 4+ seconds.

Most people probably don’t even observe this.

I can’t say I’ve even seen my oil pressure light [emoji1787]
It’s off so quick I don’t even notice it. I did recently have my oil pump replaced as part of a bottom end overhaul though, so I’m happy it’s running as best it can be with new bearings.

[DiscoDB]

I can’t say I’ve even seen my oil pressure light [emoji1787]
It’s off so quick I don’t even notice it. I did recently have my oil pump replaced as part of a bottom end overhaul though, so I’m happy it’s running as best it can be with new bearings.

Airmech noticed a big difference when he fitted the new and latest upgraded oil pump to his D3.

Edit: if I had a hoist, a bottom end overhaul at mid-life (250-300k) would be an excellent idea.

[Eric SDV6SE]

Edit: if I had a hoist, a bottom end overhaul at mid-life (250-300k) would be an excellent idea.

Can it be done on a hoist? I thought it would be body off engine out....

[DiscoJeffster]

Can it be done on a hoist? I thought it would be body off engine out....

Well, I think you could do it body on, but it’ll be tough. Mine was done body off, but that was agreed to sort a few other issues

[Eric SDV6SE]

That's what I thought...definitely not a garage floor activity....my knees still remembering my recent "control arm and wheel bearings" exercise.

[DiscoJeffster]

That's what I thought...definitely not a garage floor activity....my knees still remembering my recent "control arm and wheel bearings" exercise.

Yeah. I’m so thinking I’ll make someone do it for me….

[DiscoDB]

Can it be done on a hoist? I thought it would be body off engine out....

…no hoist is to remove the body. 2 post hoist of course.

Experienced people can get the body off in under 4 hours, have seen a team of 2 do it in under 2 hours. I imagine it would take me 8 hours first time.

Creative types can remove the body with no hoist.

[Eric SDV6SE]

.

Creative types can remove the body with no hoist.

Demolition saw can get it done.....oh, you want the car back....sorry

[DiscoDB]

Demolition saw can get it done.....oh, you want the car back....sorry

Cut the front end of the body off, do work on engine, then a few tack welds, a bit of silastic and black paint, and she’ll be right mate. [emoji106]

[Graeme]

I can only speak to my own experience but the only time my engine takes 2-4 seconds for the oil pressure light to go out is when I have done an oil/filter change. At other times it is always less than 2 secs.

Garry
Since my TD5 days I've always dropped then refilled the oil before releasing the filter as the TD5 WSM states that this procedure must be followed, but perhaps the TD5 doesn't have a NRV. My 4.4 TDV8 takes 1.5 - 2 seconds for the light to extinguish after an oil and filter change.
I fill my farm equipment spin-on filters with oil before fitting, even those that are fitted upside down in order to reduce the time to build pressure, but unfortunately that's not possible with the TDV6 and TDV8 filter inserts in upside-down caps.

[DiscoDB]

My 4.4 TDV8 takes 1.5 - 2 seconds for the light to extinguish after an oil and filter change.

Graeme do you know what the oil pressure switch setting is on the 4.4 TDV8?

I had read somewhere the TDV8 has a lower set point than the TDV6 (or was it higher?)

[Graeme]

I don't know the switch pressure setting.

Edit 2.2 to 5.9 psi, so not very helpful.

[DiscoDB]

2.2 to 5.9 psi, so not very helpful.

Believe same for the TDV6 but I have seen conflicting info on this.

Makes you wonder how much variability there is across different engines with the quoted range.

[Graeme]

The TDV6's switch looks to be a long shank version of the 4.4's so could easily be functionally the same.

[DiscoDB]

I have a 0.25bar (3.6psi) switch to compare with, and I can also get a 0.5bar (7.2psi) switch as well which uses the same electrical connector.

If it takes longer to go out because it has a higher set point I am happy with this knowing it will come on sooner as well.