Why do 2.7 cranks break?

[V8Ian]

It certainly appears to be a minimalist design, possibly taken too far.


https://youtu.be/YqXEmWfjz1s

[DazzaTD5]

*Unless things are very different in the U.K most failed engines don't actually break the crankshaft. (i would have thought heat stress in Australia is far harder on engines)
*Out of over 30 engine replacements now I have had 2 that broke the crankshaft.
*I have had some incredibly damaged engines, where conrods have melted, conrods punched through the block, conrods that have jammed between the crankshaft and the block, conrods and crankshafts that had turned blue, none bar 2 have broken the crankshaft.

*The V6 split crank design has always been rubbish, search and you will find that broken crankshafts on V6 engines is certainly not a unique thing to Land Rovers.

[PerthDisco]

*Unless things are very different in the U.K most failed engines don't actually break the crankshaft. (i would have thought heat stress in Australia is far harder on engines)
*Out of over 30 engine replacements now I have had 2 that broke the crankshaft.
*I have had some incredibly damaged engines, where conrods have melted, conrods punched through the block, conrods that have jammed between the crankshaft and the block, conrods and crankshafts that had turned blue, none bar 2 have broken the crankshaft.

*The V6 split crank design has always been rubbish, search and you will find that broken crankshafts on V6 engines is certainly not a unique thing to Land Rovers.

Have you have any that were rebuildable in same block with new parts or were all of these were throw away?

[DazzaTD5]

Have you have any that were rebuildable in same block with new parts or were all of these were throw away?

Not too many that I remember, the big issue is...
*Labour cost to rebuild one.
*Find me a good engine rebuilder in Perth.

*I used to use M & D Engineering they were rebuilding Land Rover engines when I was in high school (closed up shop).

P.S and find me a customer that is willing to spend the dollars to rebuild an engine rather than fit a Territory engine, tow in drive out everything done for $10K.
One day there will be no good engines and a rebuild will be the only option.

[econti]

I reckon its cause of the heat treating, may explain why some are immune and some get it.
Totally anecdotal of course, but our family D4 2.7 has 200,000km and hasn't broken it. I tow the race car with it often and give it the beans with no remorse, i.e. absolute full throttle for 5+ minutes at a time up big highway hills. Yet another fella had his break when he was a marker car for an oversize truck, doing 40kmh with it basically idling.

[BradC]

I reckon its cause of the heat treating, may explain why some are immune and some get it.

That was the original Landrover response/excuse, but if that was true they would have stopped lunching bottom ends after they found/rectified the issue with the supply chain.

[DazzaTD5]

I reckon its cause of the heat treating, may explain why some are immune and some get it.
Totally anecdotal of course, but our family D4 2.7 has 200,000km and hasn't broken it. I tow the race car with it often and give it the beans with no remorse, i.e. absolute full throttle for 5+ minutes at a time up big highway hills. Yet another fella had his break when he was a marker car for an oversize truck, doing 40kmh with it basically idling.

I've never seen a failed D4 2.7, just like in a Ford Territory unheard of. I have customers that have clocked up past 350K and going strong.

[DazzaTD5]

Also the guy in the video reckons service good or bad has nothing to do with it.
I think thats bull though, Ive got customers with D4 3.0lt with over 200K that have had good servicing and going faultless. I mean good as in every 10K servicing.

[PerthDisco]

Also the guy in the video reckons service good or bad has nothing to do with it.
I think thats bull though, Ive got customers with D4 3.0lt with over 200K that have had good servicing and going faultless. I mean good as in every 10K servicing.

Given (and I know of quite a few) D4s were sold with servicing package included in some corporate deal these over serviced 3.0s will be unicorns after they switched from 6 months or 15k kms in the D3 days.

[Bulletman]

Not sure if the 2009 D4 TDV6 is any different to the 2008 D3 TDV6, but i know someone who has 2009 D4 with +330k on it that has done many of the major offroad treks in the country towing a camper trailer , guessing +1000kg.

Would be interested to know if his engine is any different to my 2008 D3. The reason i bring this up is it seems that its commonly said the D4 doesnt seem to suffer the fate of the D3 engines.

On a side note, i travel about 2000ks a week in a road train servicing roadhouses, cattle stations and a few towns and mine sites up and down the stuart hwy from darwin , and several months ago we had the caravan/ camper invasion from every state in the country, to the point where even the roadside stops were overflowing by 3pm. the amount of cars townig vans or trailers , or just loaded with tents or swags on the roof was amazing. I seen my fair share of L/R's and R/R's in the mix, more than i have ever seen up here before.

I have only seen 1 L/R either broken down or on a tilt tray, and that was a defender , the model with the hump in the bonnet.
I have personally bought back from several different towns or roadhouses 6 or 7 Toyota's mainly prado's plus a couple of hilux's , 1 pajero and a triton, plus a couple of holden something or anothers.

My point is , all makes have problems , especially when travelling long distances and throw in towing a van/camper as well

Bulletman

[rar110]

Also the guy in the video reckons service good or bad has nothing to do with it.
I think thats bull though, Ive got customers with D4 3.0lt with over 200K that have had good servicing and going faultless. I mean good as in every 10K servicing.

deleted.

[DiscoJeffster]

There was a late D4 on here that failed after the 1st service on a HW run. They seem to fail at anytime during the engine life.

You’re conflating two issues. Late D4 is the common 3L engine issue. The 2.7 in the D4 never suffered crank failure issues or tensioner issues

[rar110]

You’re conflating two issues. Late D4 is the common 3L engine issue. The 2.7 in the D4 never suffered crank failure issues or tensioner issues

thanks fixed to avoid confusing issue.

[Fatso]

I often wonder if these failures are due to people remapping and chipping there engines for more power .

[101RRS]

I often wonder if these failures are due to people remapping and chipping there engines for more power .

Not likely considering the engine was available in Jags as a twin turbo with more power and torque and they did not seem to suffer crank failures.

[skidrov]

How does the 3.0 get the extra capacity (assuming it's the same base engine)? Is it bored, stroked, combo thereof?

And is the crank the same part number on both? (Guess not if it's stroked)

[scarry]

I often wonder if these failures are due to people remapping and chipping there engines for more power .

Not many around tuned or chipped.

Of the few that were,depending on tuner,some ocasionally cracked exhaust manifolds.

[shanegtr]

How does the 3.0 get the extra capacity (assuming it's the same base engine)? Is it bored, stroked, combo thereof?

And is the crank the same part number on both? (Guess not if it's stroked)
Both -
2.7 bore x stroke 81 mm × 88 mm
3.0 bore x stroke 84 mm × 90 mm

[PerthDisco]

Both -
2.7 bore x stroke 81 mm × 88 mm
3.0 bore x stroke 84 mm × 90 mm

A poofteenth difference considering the massive power difference

[DiscoJeffster]

A poofteenth difference considering the massive power difference

An 11% capacity increase with a 28% power increase. Presume sequential turbo configuration allows for more boost via the secondary turbo/possibly larger secondary turbo that would cause lag in the 2.7 single turbo configuration. Plus the marketing department detuning the 2.7 to sell more higher spec models.

[PerthDisco]

An 11% capacity increase with a 28% power increase. Presume sequential turbo configuration allows for more boost via the secondary turbo/possibly larger secondary turbo that would cause lag in the 2.7 single turbo configuration. Plus the marketing department detuning the 2.7 to sell more higher spec models.

2720cc vs 2993cc so 10% :)

[DiscoJeffster]

2720cc vs 2993cc so 10% :)

Urgh. Always one.

10.0367647058824% if you want to be like that.

[PerthDisco]

Is this the end? Complete engine failure - Land Rover Discovery 3 / LR3 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/MKYovvWWym0)

Latest Blockbuster video

Synopsis of failure cause theory starts at 36:50

[Tote]

That video describes what happened to my TDV6 at about 275,000KM. It siezed solid and the crank was unable to be turned even with a 1m long extension bar. Didn't break the crank though. I suspect that either the oil had lost some of its lubrication capacity or it was cumulative wear that was the trigger. The vehicle had been serviced regularly and oil changes were done as per the manual (2007 D3). When It failed it was at the end of two 700KM journeys pulling a trailer load of sheep so high load conditions and nearing a scheduled oil change. The part in the video where he suggests that you could sense that there was an engine problem was not true in my case, the engine stopped completely and terminally at 100 KM/h with no oil pressure warning or drop in power.

Regards,
Tote

[BradC]

Is this the end? Complete engine failure - Land Rover Discovery 3 / LR3 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/MKYovvWWym0)

Latest Blockbuster video

Synopsis of failure cause theory starts at 36:50

I'm very much looking forward to the bit where they get to try and source properly fitting bearings. That seems to be one of the real sticking points for rebuilds as the clearances are critical.

[DazzaTD5]

Is this the end? Complete engine failure - Land Rover Discovery 3 / LR3 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/MKYovvWWym0)

Latest Blockbuster video

Synopsis of failure cause theory starts at 36:50

Those guys are the greatest, some of the repairs they do is pretty good for "non professionals" if that's a thing. I mean I get a tad bored of doing engine changes but I don't mind seeing others do it without the bull**** like the other video. (they also do it with body on, argh how unfun is that)

I also get bored of all the theories out there of what causes it. As I have said many times, it's Jaguar Land Rover and their poor quality control in either building them or sourcing the components to build them. They make this choice like so many other manufacturers so they get to wear the less than stella reliability badge.

For a mechanic regardless of experience or knowledge to speculate or worse to matter of fact say what causes a failure with regards to crankshafts is a load of ****.
Quite simple if your not a mechanical engineer that specialises in engine design and everything related to such then how could you know.

As plenty of others on AULRO have pointed out, good servicing every 10K has got to give you the best chance.
Also not taking your Disco to a dealer for servicing has got to be a positive thing (haha I gota throw that in as the dealers in Perth are total **** at long term servicing and maintenance).

And while I can at times poo poo a Discovery 4 3.0lt its got to be one of the best 4x4s on the road. [tonguewink]

[BradC]

And while I can at times poo poo a Discovery 4 3.0lt its got to be one of the best 4x4s on the road. [tonguewink]

It's also one of the best 4x4s on a flat bed. Best of both worlds!

[350RRC]

.................

And while I can at times poo poo a Discovery 4 3.0lt its got to be one of the best 4x4s on the road. [tonguewink]

And off road?

(Not having a dig), DL

[gavinwibrow]

And off road?

(Not having a dig), DL


Dazza took my prior D4 2.7 into the hills near Kalamunda some time ago and was pleasantly surprised by the performance. I'll leave him to comment further if he chooses

[discorevy]

It's also one of the best 4x4s on a flat bed.



And off road?

(Not having a dig), DL


Think Brad answered your question, flat bed is theoretically off road

( having a dig [smilebigeye])

Of the dozen or so I saw on a recent drive to Darwin , 2 were having a bit of a relax on flat beds.( The tracks were pretty rough ( gibb river road near pentecost and Parry Creek road ), also came across y62 patrol with collapsed rear ball joint and 200 series with collapsed front ball joint ..... independent suspension mayhem.

[350RRC]

Dazza took my prior D4 2.7 into the hills near Kalamunda some time ago and was pleasantly surprised by the performance. I'll leave him to comment further if he chooses

I have no doubt that's true!

Was just a play on Dazza's comment about a D4 being 'one of the best 4x4s on the road'.

cheers, DL

[gavinwibrow]

I have no doubt that's true!

Was just a play on Dazza's comment about a D4 being 'one of the best 4x4s on the road'.

cheers, DL


Some of the junior lurkers may not have understood the intent of your words of wisdom, so thought it might be worth commenting on/clarifying. We all know they are unbeatable off road, plus of course LR is responsible for much of the old and recent technology, which is then taken up and utilised by other marques.

[Eetab]

It certainly appears to be a minimalist design, possibly taken too far.


https://youtu.be/YqXEmWfjz1s

Happy to be corrected on any or all of what I'm about to write.

When my 3.0Ltr Twin Turbo failed i couldn't understand why, so I researched the bejesus out of it and spoke to many engine rebuilders and to an engineer. What I (and I alone) have concluded is that the crankshaft momentarily twists. Not bends! When something is twisted it takes on a helix shape and in doing so, then it will try to bend and effectively shorten. Being wedged in by hefty main bearings the crankshaft (in this case) can't really move that much but it will move enough to bind against the (in most cases the No.2) main bearing and rotate it slightly, it may only rotate the main bearing a little or a lot, either restricting the the oil journal or completely block it. As with mine, the bearing was only rotated slightly restricting oil flow as I got another 5,000 Km after a slight bearing noise was evident. So slight, that I was the only one who noticed a difference in engine sound at around 1800-2200 RPM. My reasoning for the 2.7 having less failures is simply the less power they have, but occasionally there is a "perfect storm" where the 2.7 will also fail. Knowing when mine first made the new engine noise, I was decelerating and suddenly needed to accelerate, it came on boost early (I'm guessing) and put extreme pressure on one or two cylinders.
This is the reason I went for a billet crank over standard

As i said, this is my interpretation only and I'm happy to stand corrected, but to me sounds very logical.

Please don't rip into me if I'm completely wrong.

[shack]

Happy to be corrected on any or all of what I'm about to write.

When my 3.0Ltr Twin Turbo failed i couldn't understand why, so I researched the bejesus out of it and spoke to many engine rebuilders and to an engineer. What I (and I alone) have concluded is that the crankshaft momentarily twists. Not bends! When something is twisted it takes on a helix shape and in doing so, then it will try to bend and effectively shorten. Being wedged in by hefty main bearings the crankshaft (in this case) can't really move that much but it will move enough to bind against the (in most cases the No.2) main bearing and rotate it slightly, it may only rotate the main bearing a little or a lot, either restricting the the oil journal or completely block it. As with mine, the bearing was only rotated slightly restricting oil flow as I got another 5,000 Km after a slight bearing noise was evident. So slight, that I was the only one who noticed a difference in engine sound at around 1800-2200 RPM. My reasoning for the 2.7 having less failures is simply the less power they have, but occasionally there is a "perfect storm" where the 2.7 will also fail. Knowing when mine first made the new engine noise, I was decelerating and suddenly needed to accelerate, it came on boost early (I'm guessing) and put extreme pressure on one or two cylinders.
This is the reason I went for a billet crank over standard

As i said, this is my interpretation only and I'm happy to stand corrected, but to me sounds very logical.

Please don't rip into me if I'm completely wrong.You can never be completely wrong, if no one knows what is completely right!

I've been gonna post this for a few years, but didn't due to the unprovable nature of the info..but anyway, here we go..

Old school diesel tech says this:

Very few companies have built ultra reliable V configuration diesels in the past, particularly if they are relatively high output for size.

The crankshaft has just over half the length for a given number of cylinders compared to straight, so less meat and strength.

There were reports years ago of some V8 diesel crank cases twisting when under extreme load, which would damage the crank, but would keep running for a little while before realised, leading people to believe the failure happened randomly.

A local LR indie has seen more failed engines on these than most have, and I was informed the first part of the failure is a spun bearing, but of course if you don't hear that, crank next.

That's mainly on the 2.7.

Lack of oil changes will cause worn bearings, if an engine has failed due to crank or bearing, the OTHER bearings that are intact could be assessed for wear which would tell the story a bit.

A possibility could be a momentary failure or prolonged partial failure of the relief valve in the oil pump.

More likely would be crank end float out of spec, faulty conrods/bolts etc.

And as it's related..

The oil pump tensioner housing only ever seems to fail AFTER a belt change, this is unlikely to be caused by an over tensioned
Belt, unless it was maxed out.

Some I've changed have had the bolt extremely tight, and loctited in, the pressure used to undo it was considerable, in fact I think I damaged the thread doing it, but that's ok as I was replacing the pump anyway , this could be a partial cause...but of course fatigue will play a major part.


In fact, I'm suffering from that right now.

Cheers
James

[101RRS]

People say that no one knows why the 2.7 and later the 3.0 engine break their cranks - well that is not correct. The maker of these engines (Ford) know exactly what the cause is - for sure some engines may fail due to rotated bearings, worn bearings, poor maintenance etc but in the main I think it just happens because the crank is just not strong enough to handle the forces when as mentioned loads on the crank all come at once. (may break at a later time after being stressed) - afterall some have failed with only 40,000km on them and others have failed with 400,00km.

My thoughts as follows are not based on anything mechanical but based on Ford's marketing.

In the US we all know that they have Lemon Laws that can be very costly to manufacturers if they have a stuff up and produce a lemon. Now Ford wanted to introduce the 3.0 TDV6 into the Ford F150 but of course using a short engine which is basically the same as LR with all its faults would be a recipe for disaster.

As we know Ford's (PSA) 3.0L diesel engines have serious problems with bursting crankshafts and quick wear on crankshaft bearings. There are several possible causes - a design mistake, insufficient oil pump performance, improper oil, untimely and incomplete oil change. The reason is most likely a complex of the above factors. For the 3.0 Powerstroke Ford did a lot of work on the old engine and developed a revised crankshaft and bearings.

I did see a comparison chart of the crankshaft journal sizes of the PSA Lion 3.0 and the Powerstroke 3.0 but cannot find it now. However, the crankshaft journals are approx 4mm larger in the F150 over the old crankshaft (approx 69.9mm vs 65.9mm).

While there may have been failures of the Powerstroke, there does not seem to be any record of systemic crank failures. So to me the base cause is simply the old crank was not big enough and this fault has been corrected in the Powestroke.

Garry

[incisor]

why does the terry motor not break cracks like the landy motor ?

[Homestar]

why does the terry motor not break cracks like the landy motor ?

The Ford badge screwed to the rocker cover provides superior reinforcement than the Land Rover badge… [emoji56]

[DiscoDB]

why does the terry motor not break cracks like the landy motor ?

The cynic says Ford determined which engines went to which customer.

The truth is probably more like the Territory is lighter, has an easier life (soccer mum duties), and does less kms than the Discovery.

The Territory also got the later version of the 2.7 like the D4 - and by all accounts the D4 with the 2.7 also has less failures - supporting that improvements were made over time.

[scarry]

The Territory also got the later version of the 2.7 like the D4 - and by all accounts the D4 with the 2.7 also has less failures - supporting that improvements were made over time.

The improvements,if any, seem to be a mystery?

[josh.huber]

why does the terry motor not break cracks like the landy motor ?

This is by my interpretation the post that really should attract attention..

Incisor has asked the perfect question.

I know people with the Terry that tow and drive hard. I have read about people with discos doing"soccer" duty..

The Terry didn't blow a crank at load. But the disco did..

Then there's the fact that load doesn't really matter.. First gear, second gear use alot of engine torque. Sure the disco uses it longer and in more gears. But if it was a power problem. The remapped cars would explode.

There are a few issues, oil pump failure - that'll kill any engine, oil pump housing failure- yep all dead, bearing failure- there was reports of loose main caps? Engine oil filter mistakes. Not to mention over heated engines etc.. my research of 3L cranks indicates no spun bearings. Just broken cranks, I seen my first two broken cranks in my 15 year career on great engines. A cat V6 diesel and a Detroit Diesel V6 diesel.

Cat tell you to inspect the balancer on a service.. And of the engine goes pop. To replace it. I have seen talk of an upgraded balancer. It's where I would start

However, back to the start of the post. For the reasons above I agree with daza td5 . Quality control has lead us to this conversation.. maybe Ford knew which cranks to send where..I mean. They sell more Ford's then LR, why not keep the good ones?

[Hoges]

I "thought" I read somewhere that while the engine is from PSA, LR specified their own crankshaft design to be incorporated into JLR-specific engines. Ford reviewed the JLR crankshaft design, determined it wasn't optimal for their purposes and made several changes (not specified) to the crank design intended for Ford products... I've tried to find the reference but as stated elsewhere, my forgettery is better than my memory these days!

[scarry]

However, back to the start of the post. For the reasons above I agree with daza td5 . Quality control has lead us to this conversation.. maybe Ford knew which cranks to send where..I mean. They sell more Ford's then LR, why not keep the good ones?

And the 2.7 D4?

Same spec as Territory,just coincidence they were same run of engines,maybe?

[DiscoDB]

The Territory typically weighs 400-500kg less than the Discovery 4 and depending on if it is a 2WD or AWD has a towing capacity of only 2300kg or 2700kg.

The typical duty load cycle will be higher in the Discovery which would put the motor under more stress cycles.

[Hoges]

And the 2.7 D4?

Same spec as Territory,just coincidence they were same run of engines,maybe?

Has anyone been able to determine whether the cranks interchangeable?

[josh.huber]

And the 2.7 D4?

Same spec as Territory,just coincidence they were same run of engines,maybe?

It was my understanding that the 2.7L D4 had proven itself to be the best of the bunch. The 3.0L cranks break, but the 2.7L don't, they just have bottom end failures from oil filter mishaps and top end failures from the tensioner breaking?

[DiscoDB]

I "thought" I read somewhere that while the engine is from PSA, LR specified their own crankshaft design to be incorporated into JLR-specific engines. Ford reviewed the JLR crankshaft design, determined it wasn't optimal for their purposes and made several changes (not specified) to the crank design intended for Ford products... I've tried to find the reference but as stated elsewhere, my forgettery is better than my memory these days!

It is a Ford engine developed in a partnership between Ford UK and the PSA group for their subsidiaries so it could be used across multiple applications including Jaguar, Land Rover, Peugeot, and Citroen. Ford itself was a late adopter in using the engine for the Territory and later F-150.

The original design work was based out of PSA’s engineering centre in Paris, but then the engine was engineered and assembled at Ford’s Dagenham engine plant in the UK, and so recognised as being a Ford engine.

LR’s input was to modify the sump and oil pick up to suit off road use, plus dropped to single turbo and mildly de-tuned for better bottom end torque. Interestingly LR wanted it to be a 3L, whilst Peugeot wanted a 2.5L - so we ended up with 2.7L as a compromise.

By the time Ford Australia used the engine in the Territory, early issues with the 2.7L such as the weak oil pump housing had already been fixed and upgraded by Ford UK.

Ford US did not consider the motor heavy duty enough and so redesigned the 3L version of the engine for the F-150 series. Mods included a new crank. Time will tell if Ford have been successful with these mods.

[DazzaTD5]

And off road?

(Not having a dig), DL

offroad = awesome, very nimble.

[DazzaTD5]

Dazza took my prior D4 2.7 into the hills near Kalamunda some time ago and was pleasantly surprised by the performance. I'll leave him to comment further if he chooses

Unfortunately it wasnt the first D3 / D4 I've taken along my "test route" over the years and they all performed well better than other archaic 4x4s.
The only ones that know are the owners of the said problematic vehicle.

[DazzaTD5]

You will find that the D4 2.7 and the Territory 2.7 were made on the same production line.
There are parts on the Territory 2.7 that have a Land Rover logo and part number.
What is likely is all engines were the same and tagged on the line as for "Ford Australia" "Land Rover" etc etc to facilitate assembly differences as sumps, electrical harness etc etc

[101RRS]

There are parts on the Territory 2.7 that have a Land Rover logo and part number.


Yes like oil pumps - go top a Ford dealer and buy a Territory oil pump and it comes in a Ford bag but all the seals etc are in Land Rover bags and the lot costs somewhere around $170 retail. Go to a LR supplier and buy a D3 oil pump and it comes in a Ford bag but all the seals etc are in Land Rover bags and the lot costs somewhere around $470 retail.

Now I am sure Daz would not do this, but I am sure many LR supplier source their oil pumps from Ford but charge the LR price to their unsuspecting clients.

[PerthDisco]

So here’s something interesting;

Outback Discovery with an early D3 has just lost his engine due to a broken tensioner / oil pump.

OIL PUMP FAILURE, DIAGNOSIS. ford territory engine replacement part 1 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/RAVhTGiLTXg)

Almost unheard of these days anymore and something he thought had been changed.

Since this is a high km well maintained early 2.7 that has an intact bottom end ‘and’ with an original oil pump I’ve asked him to pull the bearings to see if there is any wear especially on the inner two.

Then we can compare with what LRTime is doing now.

I’m not sure if Outback Discovery is on Aulro but another excellent video supplier.

[econti]

Also if he can have a look at the harmonic balancer and see if its flogged out or OK, someone else suggested that could be a source

[loanrangie]

Also if he can have a look at the harmonic balancer and see if its flogged out or OK, someone else suggested that could be a sourceThey don't have a balancer as such just a pulley for the timing belt with holes for the serpentine belt pulley and there is no keyway.

[DiscoDB]

They don't have a balancer as such just a pulley for the timing belt with holes for the serpentine belt pulley and there is no keyway.

The accessory pulley on the crankshaft has a damper built into it. This is made with rubber and would be expected to deteriorate with time.

[DazzaTD5]

So here’s something interesting;

Outback Discovery with an early D3 has just lost his engine due to a broken tensioner / oil pump.

OIL PUMP FAILURE, DIAGNOSIS. ford territory engine replacement part 1 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/RAVhTGiLTXg)

Almost unheard of these days anymore and something he thought had been changed.

Since this is a high km well maintained early 2.7 that has an intact bottom end ‘and’ with an original oil pump I’ve asked him to pull the bearings to see if there is any wear especially on the inner two.

Then we can compare with what LRTime is doing now.

I’m not sure if Outback Discovery is on Aulro but another excellent video supplier.

I was watching the video and thinking I wonder if this is the guy that phoned me last week I think. As he mentioned me in the video part of the info I did tell him to get a AULRO subscription as it will be the best dollars he will spend on his Land Rover.

[shanegtr]

I was watching the video and thinking I wonder if this is the guy that phoned me last week I think. As he mentioned me in the video part of the info I did tell him to get a AULRO subscription as it will be the best dollars he will spend on his Land Rover.
He was asking about sources of engines on the facebook pages - I may have dropped your name there as a possible source[bighmmm]

[Bohica]

DIY line bore diesel engine block - Ford Lion TDV6 - Land Rover Discovery 3 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7YAmcazUs&t=1286s)

[PerthDisco]

DIY line bore diesel engine block - Ford Lion TDV6 - Land Rover Discovery 3 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7YAmcazUs&t=1286s)

The interesting takeaway is that due to heat expansion the two inside damaged shells are being sized back to spec for original, not OS shells to be used.

Crank will be reused

[DazzaTD5]

Yes like oil pumps - go top a Ford dealer and buy a Territory oil pump and it comes in a Ford bag but all the seals etc are in Land Rover bags and the lot costs somewhere around $170 retail. Go to a LR supplier and buy a D3 oil pump and it comes in a Ford bag but all the seals etc are in Land Rover bags and the lot costs somewhere around $470 retail.

Now I am sure Daz would not do this, but I am sure many LR supplier source their oil pumps from Ford but charge the LR price to their unsuspecting clients.

Honestly, I simply don't have time to order a part from the local Ford dealer that wont have it in stock anyway and then have to go and collect it.
I use genuine or OEM, I also source who makes it and where it is made. (harder than you might think). I do buy some Ford parts from a Ford dealer on ebay as the Ford version is 5 times less in price, I charge the Ford price.

I do 3 or 4 order a week to the U.K to keep myself stocked up

[PerthDisco]

Make a cup of tea, sit back, turn on subtitles and enjoy further hypothesising. It’s a doozie as this guy knows his stuff.

Excellent video actually with a treasure trove of PSA Lion TDV6 info. At least we don’t have the vacuum operated intake flaps.

Note also when he has the coolant crossover in his hand at 15:20 it is actually a thermostat on the Jaguar, Citroen and Peugeot twin turbo versions. That explains where that reference came from.

???? ?? ??????! ??? ?? ??? ? ??????? 2.7 HDI ??? "?????????", Jaguar ? Land Rover? - YouTube (https://youtu.be/oDBuYPISe1Q)

[RANDLOVER]

Make a cup of tea, sit back, turn on subtitles and enjoy further hypothesising. It’s a doozie as this guy knows his stuff.

Excellent video actually with a treasure trove of PSA Lion TDV6 info. At least we don’t have the vacuum operated intake flaps.

Note also when he has the coolant crossover in his hand at 15:20 it is actually a thermostat on the Jaguar, Citroen and Peugeot twin turbo versions. That explains where that reference came from.

???? ?? ??????! ??? ?? ??? ? ??????? 2.7 HDI ??? "?????????", Jaguar ? Land Rover? - YouTube (https://youtu.be/oDBuYPISe1Q)

Well to sum up he posits the theory of the the wrong class of 5W-40 oil, and says the engine was designed before the new low viscosity class was invented and they later recommended the new class oil for the engine, so old ACEA C3 vs the new ACEA B5/A5.

[PerthDisco]

Well to sum up he posits the theory of the the wrong class of 5W-40 oil, and says the engine was designed before the new low viscosity class was invented and they later recommended the new class oil for the engine, so old ACAE C3 vs the new ACEA B5/A5.

Definitely plausible as he states only LR went this way on the oil spec and not other PSA engine users hence the concentration in LR. The oil choice (thin) is for reduced spinning friction fuel efficiency and not longevity.

I’ve been waiting and hoping the oil gurus would take on this hypothesis. Ivan in the video seems to know a thing or two about oil.

And here’s me slavishly following the recommended oil spec. Think I’ll change to 20W-50 Dino from now on [emoji23]

[DiscoDB]

What is interesting is what Penrite comes up with for the different versions of the 2.7.

Land Rover D3/4: A3/B4
Citroen C5: C3
Peugeot 407: C3
Jaguar XF: C1
Ford Territory: A5/B5

Should note that Citroen, Peugeot and Jaguar would have DPF’s hence the C spec oil. It appears only the Jag and Territory was bringing up the lower HT/HS viscosity oils (C1 and A5/B5) compared to the A3/B3, A3/B4, or C3 oils.

Was it being suggested we should (or shouldn’t) use the lower HT/HS viscosity oil? Awaiting to hear comments from an oil guru.

[DiscoDB]

Oval Autos in the UK does a lot of TDV6 engine rebuilds and change outs and their observation was 9/10 times the failure was accompanied by injector issues.

Another person who works for another repairer in the UK made the same observation believing injector issues lead to fuel contaminating the oil and this results in the bearing failure that can then lead to a snapped crank.

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Range Rover 3.6 TDV8 - anyone got a head gasket? (https://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/range-rover-36-tdv8-anyone-got-head-gasket-196135.html)

Interestingly a recent 3.0 failure reported on this forum also noted that the car had been misfiring for a few weeks before the crank snapped.

In the LR Time video, it was noted that Fabian could actually hear something had change prior to his failure. In his case, he detected the spun bearing before major damage had been done.

With a marginal crank and bearing design, it is plausible that a leaking injector could contaminate the oil and lead to a failure in a relatively short time - with the risk increasing if the oil change interval is extended - and LR probably push this envelope further than most.

No doubt there are many contributing factors, but what is clear is if you have a misfire or hear something that sounds different - stop and investigate.

[DiscoJeffster]

Ok, think about this. LR injectors are just Bosch etc injectors used in millions of engines that aren’t breaking cranks. I’m also pretty confident that the other permutations of this engine would also use the same injectors and they’re not snapping cranks. So the idea that only in an LR an injector issue leads to a snapped crank, but not in anything else seems a stretch.

Injectors are also pretty reliable and thus it doesn’t explain the low Km, in some cases pre-first service vehicles that have failed cranks.

LR service intervals aren’t much different than many cars on the market these days. Yes they’re long but again, many cars with increased servicing have failed as well.

[emoji2369]

[DiscoDB]

Remember we are primarily discussing the 2.7 failures not 3.0 and these failures tend not to be early in the life. Most 2.7 failures happen after 160-200K. Injector problems after 200K is not uncommon.

The 2.7 also uses different injectors to the 3.0 and the suggestion is that fuel contaminating the oil is enough for the poor bearing design and poor crank design to tip it over the edge. Same as using the wrong oil can lead to failure.

Interesting that two repairers in the UK (and one of them probably does a large portion of the work) made the same comment that they see injector issues accompanying engine failures.

No doubt there are many contributing factors - only have to look at the size of the crank to see it is a poor design. The size of the counterweights look much larger which would add to the flexing of the shaft, the webs look small, there is a known undercut issue, even the harmonic balancer looks under sized.

Add to this not using locating tabs on the bearing shells and you have all the elements that can lead to a failure for the unlucky few.

The 3.0 seems to be different again when it comes to failures, but the crank and bearing design is a common weakness. The extended oil changes and if using the wrong oil could be contributors as well.

The crank design is at the centre of all of this, the question then is how best to minimise the likelihood of having a rare failure.

[DiscoDB]

What is interesting is what Penrite comes up with for the different versions of the 2.7.

Land Rover D3/4: A3/B4
Citroen C5: C3
Peugeot 407: C3
Jaguar XF: C1
Ford Territory: A5/B5

Should note that Citroen, Peugeot and Jaguar would have DPF’s hence the C spec oil. It appears only the Jag and Territory was bringing up the lower HT/HS viscosity oils (C1 and A5/B5) compared to the A3/B3, A3/B4, or C3 oils.

Was it being suggested we should (or shouldn’t) use the lower HT/HS viscosity oil? Awaiting to hear comments from an oil guru.

So it is the 3.0 that LR change oil spec to the low HT/HS viscosity oil - namely C1 like Jaguar. Whereas Citroen stuck with C3 for the 3.0.

Makes me think there is more to this oil spec theory.

[incisor]

penrite oil recommendation for the ford 2.7l tdci

174946

penrite oil recommendation for the landrover 2.7l tdv6

174947


both meet fords wss-m2913-b spec which is the original ford spec in 2012 but their oil specs website states that these days wss-m2913-d should be used where -b was originally recommended

penrite oil recommended -d oil

174948

which is what my old vw 1.9l diesel caddy used and is the slipperiest oil i ever got on my hands over the years [biggrin]

oils aint oils it seems

is confusing as hell

[PerthDisco]

Ok, think about this. LR injectors are just Bosch etc injectors used in millions of engines that aren’t breaking cranks. I’m also pretty confident that the other permutations of this engine would also use the same injectors and they’re not snapping cranks. So the idea that only in an LR an injector issue leads to a snapped crank, but not in anything else seems a stretch.

Injectors are also pretty reliable and thus it doesn’t explain the low Km, in some cases pre-first service vehicles that have failed cranks.

LR service intervals aren’t much different than many cars on the market these days. Yes they’re long but again, many cars with increased servicing have failed as well.

[emoji2369]

I also don’t believe an injector could fail bad enough to dilute oil and not give a code or fault. You’d see elevated oil levels also with enough diesel to contaminate it.

[DiscoDB]

penrite oil recommendation for the ford 2.7l tdci

174946

penrite oil recommendation for the landrover 2.7l tdv6

174947


both meet fords wss-m2913-b spec which is the original ford spec in 2012 but their oil specs website states that these days wss-m2913-d should be used where -b was originally recommended

penrite oil recommended -d oil

174948

which is what my old vw 1.9l diesel caddy used and is the slipperiest oil i ever got on my hands over the years [biggrin]

oils aint oils it seems

is confusing as hell

That is the alternative oil recommendation by Penrite for the Territory 2.7.

As the preferred oil, they list Full Synthetic 5W-30 which is an ACEA A5/B5 oil. Still meets the same Ford A to B specs, it also meets C to D.

Vehicles which have been specified to use A5/B5 can use A3/B4 as an alternative but the opposite does not apply - A3/B4 specified vehicles should not use A5/B5 - presumably because they have not been designed for the lower viscosity at high temps.

[josh.huber]

Just my view, injectors won't directly "cause" the failure, however again just me.. The engine doesn't seem to be able to cope with vibration. So a miss fire or power imbalance, or the torque converter shudder would cause issues in my mind to these specific V6 diesels .

Mine is a 3.0L but I have looked into a new or improve balancer for it.. But im a bit damned if I do. Damned if I don't.

I still highly prescribe to the oil viscosity. That's why I run hpr5, I was going to run cat 15w40 but the 100* viscosity was the same.

I need to pull my finger out and do the oil testing. In Interested to see the temperature vs pressure relationship on these engines. Aswell as the pressure at idle when hot

Oil dilution from an injector that's enough to cause an issue, should present other symptoms, black smoke etc

[DiscoDB]

So it is the 3.0 that LR change oil spec to the low HT/HS viscosity oil - namely C1 like Jaguar. Whereas Citroen stuck with C3 for the 3.0.

Makes me think there is more to this oil spec theory.

So for the Ford F-150, Ford changed the oil spec again for the 3.0 going now to an ACEA E6 oil which has the same higher HT/HS viscosity as the C3 oil which Citroen still specify for the 3.0 to this day.

What that tells me is for the 3.0 JLR went to the lower HT/HS oil viscosity to reduce fuel consumption whilst Citroen and then later Ford US stuck with the higher HT/HS viscosity oil to chase better wear protection and durability.

Make me wonder if any 2.7’s were getting serviced with the lower HT/HS viscosity oil given this is what Jaguar specified for the 2.7. If I was an owner of a 3.0 I would be inclined to follow the Citroen preferred oil for the 3.0.

[DiscoDB]

I also don’t believe an injector could fail bad enough to dilute oil and not give a code or fault. You’d see elevated oil levels also with enough diesel to contaminate it.

I agree - and correlation does not mean causation. Just an interesting observation - especially the one from Oval Autos and let’s be honest, plenty of people do continue to drive vehicles even if they are giving fault codes or making unusual noises/vibrations.

In 2019 alone Oval Autos scrapped 40 TDV6 engines so they see plenty of them. I believe this included both 2.7 and 3.0. 15 had snapped cranks, and 25 had damaged cranks that could not be repaired.

To say that 9/10 engine failures they see also had injector problems is an interesting tell-tale. And to have a second repairer make the same observation is not to be ignored even if it is just a coincidence.

[DiscoDB]

Just my view, injectors won't directly "cause" the failure, however again just me.. The engine doesn't seem to be able to cope with vibration. So a miss fire or power imbalance, or the torque converter shudder would cause issues in my mind to these specific V6 diesels .

In addition the small balancer on the front of the crank, the TDV6 also gets an additional balancer fitted to the auto.

One of the theories I recall reading is transmission induced vibrations are more likely with the LR compared to the 2WD sedans which use the same motor.

Supports your comment that these engines don’t cope well with any harmonic imbalance.

[DiscoDB]

I think what may be happening with these engines, and it's only a guess, I'm not familiar with them, is that the more viscous oil its creating too much drag between the shell and journal leading to the spun shell, (and then a lube failure as the oil feed hole has been 'lost') unlike a 'normal' spun bearing failure where the hydrodynamic and then boundary layer lubrication has broken down (oil breakdown, too much clearance, etc.) and that leads to a metal to metal situation.

For an alternative view, Rick130 felt higher viscosity could lead to higher drag and this is what spins the bearing shell.

Would explain why LR tried a lower friction oil.

[PerthDisco]

In addition the small balancer on the front of the crank, the TDV6 also gets an additional balancer fitted to the auto.

One of the theories I recall reading is transmission induced vibrations are more likely with the LR compared to the 2WD sedans which use the same motor.

Supports your comment that these engines don’t cope well with any harmonic imbalance.

Going back to the root cause topic do we agree that it seems cranks just don’t snap on their own. It seems to me that they sometimes snap after the bearing shells develop wear and sometimes those shell/s bind and rotate blocking oil flow and sometimes this leads to a seizure usually at one of the centre shells snapping the crank in a common position?

Because if that’s the case then some oil related issue stacks up.

On the other hand has a snapped crank been seen with perfect bearings?

If cranks snap with perfect bearing shells then some imbalance, lash. pulse, casting or hardening issue stacks up.

The former may be 90% and the latter 10% is my sense.

The Russian video also mentions the updated oil pump was bigger in capacity and he provided oil pressure specs.

It’s why I’m keen to see Outback Discovery’s engine bearings in this old TDV6 with original pump that failed on the timing belt tensioner to destroy the engine.

[incisor]

That is the alternative oil recommendation by Penrite for the Territory.

Actually it is their recommendation for terry’s once out of warranty

[DiscoDB]

Actually it is their recommendation for terry’s once out of warranty

The plot thickens. [emoji3]

[josh.huber]

In addition the small balancer on the front of the crank, the TDV6 also gets an additional balancer fitted to the auto.

One of the theories I recall reading is transmission induced vibrations are more likely with the LR compared to the 2WD sedans which use the same motor.

Supports your comment that these engines don’t cope well with any harmonic imbalance.

The 2.7 would be more likely to see the trans shudders through the crank, they were the crowd that learnt the hard way and spread the news about Auto servicing. I wonder how many D3 got driven with a tc shudder until the crank died??

[DiscoDB]

It’s LR Time have posted a few more video updates to the infamous Fabian’s D3 rebuild. No more theories on why the bearing failed, but Christian notes he is still researching this topic and plans to do a future video on this.

LR TIME - YouTube (https://youtube.com/c/ChristianMuth)

Theories on the differences in oil spec between JLR and Citroen is an interesting area. On some LR forums people are adamant that you must use the low friction (low HT/HS) spec oil to avoid a spun bearing, whilst on the Citroen forums some people believe it is because LR specify a different oil that they have more failures, but then others will point out that even the Citroen was prone to spun bearings. So pick your own theory on this one.

I find it hard to believe that at temperature the oil friction has enough force to spin a crush fit bearing shell.

To spin a shell it is more likely there has been some metal on metal contact, and this risk is highest when doing a cold start and made worse after the vehicle has not been used for a few days (or is difficult to start).

Because of where the oil filter is located, the TDV6 takes longer to get the oil pressure up, and it sounds like Fabian’s D3 was difficult to start needing extensive cranking before it would fire up. Christian believes this was a fuel pump issue, but I would not rule out a leaking injector (or the injector washers). He plans to get the injectors tested and replace the washers so will see if it is still hard to start after the rebuild.

On the SA forum, one member is adamant that the TDV6 needs a PTFE oil treatment to protect the bearings during a cold start. Others believe you should always replace the oil pump every 120-160K, and change the oil and filter every 10K.

Of course these theories all relates to the spun bearing related failures (which can break the crank if not detected), and not the harmonic related crank failures.

Will be watching with interest to hear Christian’s theory at some point - and how many OMG’s this gets from Vera.

[PerthDisco]

It’s LR Time have posted a few more video updates to the infamous Fabian’s D3 rebuild. No more theories on why the bearing failed, but Christian notes he is still researching this topic and plans to do a future video on this.

LR TIME - YouTube (https://youtube.com/c/ChristianMuth)

Theories on the differences in oil spec between JLR and Citroen is an interesting area. On some LR forums people are adamant that you must use the low friction (low HT/HS) spec oil to avoid a spun bearing, whilst on the Citroen forums some people believe it is because LR specify a different oil that they have more failures, but then others will point out that even the Citroen was prone to spun bearings. So pick your own theory on this one.

I find it hard to believe that at temperature the oil friction has enough force to spin a crush fit bearing shell.

To spin a shell it is more likely there has been some metal on metal contact, and this risk is highest when doing a cold start and made worse after the vehicle has not been used for a few days (or is difficult to start).

Because of where the oil filter is located, the TDV6 takes longer to get the oil pressure up, and it sounds like Fabian’s D3 was difficult to start needing extensive cranking before it would fire up. Christian believes this was a fuel pump issue, but I would not rule out a leaking injector (or the injector washers). He plans to get the injectors tested and replace the washers so will see if it is still hard to start after the rebuild.

On the SA forum, one member is adamant that the TDV6 needs a PTFE oil treatment to protect the bearings during a cold start. Others believe you should always replace the oil pump every 120-160K, and change the oil and filter every 10K.

Of course these theories all relates to the spun bearing related failures (which can break the crank if not detected), and not the harmonic related crank failures.

Will be watching with interest to hear Christian’s theory at some point - and how many OMG’s this gets from Vera.

And then you get Outback Discovery with his tensioner failure on a high miler early D3 with original oil pump. (The Russian video suggested early oil pumps had less pressure than updated pumps) I’ve asked him to strip the crank to see what his bearings look like after this time.

[DiscoDB]

And then you get Outback Discovery with his tensioner failure on a high miler early D3 with original oil pump. (The Russian video suggested early oil pumps had less pressure than updated pumps) I’ve asked him to strip the crank to see what his bearings look like after this time.

Do you know what KM’s Outback’s Discovery was at?

I would be gutted to have had asked the question and been assured the oil pump had been replaced and upgraded only to find out this was a lie.

[4bee]

It certainly appears to be a minimalist design, possibly taken too far.


https://youtu.be/YqXEmWfjz1s


One now needs some minimalist Araldite to repair them. Job done.[bighmmm]

[scarry]

So after 9 pages of coments,the OP still hasnt got a difinitive answer.[bigrolf]

[PerthDisco]

So after 9 pages of coments,the OP still hasnt got a difinitive answer.[bigrolf]

Quote

We received many comments on our last three videos about the major engine repair going on. We are thankful about every comment, even if the Toyota drives tell us that LR vehicles are no good and that we should buy a Toyota. That´s ok. I don´t think that any LR owner disagrees with the fact that Toyotas are more reliable. I mean more reliable than most cars out there. But cars are all about emotions for me and Vera. And a Toyota just triggers nothing in me, other than a bit of respect towards the reliability. Still, we try to attract as many Toyota drives to our channel as we hope that they like to see how crazy LR drivers are and what they will do to fix their vehicles (to their wallet or knuckles, lol) . Don´t we all shake sometimes our heads if people tell us how much the surgery of their dog was or their horse? See, it´s like this with a LR. The Toyota driver, focusing on reliability, tells the doctor: don´t waste your time, give it the shot. Remember, I am referring to vehicles which are 12-15 years old. A LR3 is at least 12 years old and up to 15 years. I am not referring to vehicles older or younger than this. Reliability is just not that important to a LR driver I think. And we love our dogs and horses, even if they limp a bit and may be blind on one eye. They became 15 years old! This puts them onto the map, right? Even on a Toyota scale. Now I actually wanted to write about the most asked question: What is the reason for the TDV6 and SDV6 crankshaft failure? There is endless material out there and lots to learn. One thing I found out is, that we are not talking about a single problem or a single solution to the problem. Like use this or that oil lor change it more often. I learned that the problem is much mor complex and there are many failure modes (this is how automotive engineers call this). Just on the top of my head, I list the most important contributing factors here - which will cause a TDV6 engine failure, in particular bearing failure, IN THE LONG RUN: 1. Poor oil, wrong oil 2. Insufficient oil change frequency 3. Long stand still times between starts 4. Starts at cold climate conditions (with low crank rpm) 5. Outdated oil pump 6. Other problems causing prolonged crank times or rough starts (like bad HPFP, bad glow plugs, etc.) The list is endless. Please add any reason you think is contributing to the problem in the comments section. Toyota drivers: Spare the comment "bad engine design" Lol. In the picture you see the start cycle of our TDV6 LR3 (2006 with 235t km). The red line is engine rpm. You can see how perfectly the starter motor gets the engine to speed. Once the engine kicks in, you see the rpm drop to idle. This is very good because the oil pump delivers pressure as quick as possible this way. Also note that the voltage (light blue) is not caving in by much. It´s not perfect but still good. Then note how quickly the HPFP delivers the required starting fuel pressure (purple). Also note that the glow plugs (dark blue) stay on even after ignition for many seconds. It was 5°C that day. They do not turn off right after start. I measured this with the GAP IID tool which we own now for a few weeks. Thank you all for your comments and watching our videos. Christian

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211110/e2947a48acc1dd057b306903201ee91d.jpg

[haydent]

I noticed there are "Upgraded" cranks available now as a preventative upgrade, cant be thicker but claim to be stronger i guess

RANGE ROVER LAND ROVER 3.0 TDV6 FORGED CRANKSHAFT + MAIN & BIG END BEARINGS SET | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/264590025704?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1J8DFupUlTgWjb71YUDbmYg14&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-139619-5960-0&mkcid=2&itemid=264590025704&targetid=1396333164843&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1000286&poi=&campaignid=14473063386&mkgroupid=132282279771&rlsatarget=pla-1396333164843&abcId=9300653&merchantid=508438027&gclid=CjwKCAiA1aiMBhAUEiwACw25MScAxHqbpLoTPJz6oLS4 B6d2zZzI4yehSZFIOTtRx73FaDTVfpS2NRoC9ScQAvD_BwE)

[haydent]

Also for anyone wondering, here is TDV6 vs TDV8 crank for comparison, much thicker !

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Range Rover 3.6 TDV8 - anyone got a head gasket? (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/range-rover-36-tdv8-anyone-got-head-gasket-196135.html)

175021

[DiscoJeffster]

V8 crank is a beast and when compared, the difference is stark.

[4bee]

Also for anyone wondering, here is TDV6 vs TDV8 crank for comparison, much thicker !

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Range Rover 3.6 TDV8 - anyone got a head gasket? (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/range-rover-36-tdv8-anyone-got-head-gasket-196135.html)

175021


So, there is nothing wrong with the original design? I call bollocks. That one looks like a decent crankshaft should look & not one made from Tissue Paper.

[4bee]

So after 9 pages of coments,the OP still hasnt got a difinitive answer.[bigrolf]

Not quite correct old boy, a definitive answer would be "they are ****".

[econti]

Also for anyone wondering, here is TDV6 vs TDV8 crank for comparison, much thicker !

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Range Rover 3.6 TDV8 - anyone got a head gasket? (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/range-rover-36-tdv8-anyone-got-head-gasket-196135.html)




Remember however that V8s have 2 rods on the same plane of the crank (i.e. cyls 1 and 2 have big end bearings that sit next to each other), which is more force, compared to v6 which only has one.

[DiscoJeffster]

Remember however that V8s have 2 rods on the same plane of the crank (i.e. cyls 1 and 2 have big end bearings that sit next to each other), which is more force, compared to v6 which only has one.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211110/c95b41b56f03d04b144cfed4603950c3.jpg
Between main 2 and 3 you have two big ends and guess where it always breaks?

[101RRS]

I noticed there are "Upgraded" cranks available now as a preventative upgrade, cant be thicker but claim to be stronger i guess

RANGE ROVER LAND ROVER 3.0 TDV6 FORGED CRANKSHAFT + MAIN & BIG END BEARINGS SET | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/264590025704?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1J8DFupUlTgWjb71YUDbmYg14&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-139619-5960-0&mkcid=2&itemid=264590025704&targetid=1396333164843&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1000286&poi=&campaignid=14473063386&mkgroupid=132282279771&rlsatarget=pla-1396333164843&abcId=9300653&merchantid=508438027&gclid=CjwKCAiA1aiMBhAUEiwACw25MScAxHqbpLoTPJz6oLS4 B6d2zZzI4yehSZFIOTtRx73FaDTVfpS2NRoC9ScQAvD_BwE)

Dont believe what you read - completely discredited on the UK forums.

[PerthDisco]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211110/c95b41b56f03d04b144cfed4603950c3.jpg
Between main 2 and 3 you have two big ends and guess where it always breaks?

Yeah but because it’s either of those bearings that pack it in first and nip up on the crank.

[DiscoDB]

Also for anyone wondering, here is TDV6 vs TDV8 crank for comparison, much thicker !

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Range Rover 3.6 TDV8 - anyone got a head gasket? (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/range-rover-36-tdv8-anyone-got-head-gasket-196135.html)

175021

This highlights well how the even firing V6 is inherently the weakest of the crank designs. And whilst the 60deg V6 is the better balanced option, it is still more prone to harmonic issues when compared to an inline 6.

Notwithstanding these inherent weaknesses, I am sure there are contributing factors that increase the risk of failure which can be largely mitigated as there are plenty of high mileage D3’s still running.

[PerthDisco]

Do you know what KM’s Outback’s Discovery was at?

I would be gutted to have had asked the question and been assured the oil pump had been replaced and upgraded only to find out this was a lie.

210,000km in an 05

[shack]

I've recently started to look into Tdv6 tuning...what a headache.

Anyways.. one of the torque limiters is active based on oil temperature, over 110° torque is reduced by greater and greater amounts.

I don't know if this due to reduced lubricity or as a requirement to stop the oil breaking down, either way I thought I'd mention it.

Cheers
James

[PerthDisco]

Another good one in Russian. Activate subtitles.

Good bit starts at 9:00.

More references to oil cooler and oil pump

Bunch of stuff on hydraulic lifters and cam chain.

You’d think with our warm weather the issue of cranking time and lubricity would be non issues considering these frozen zones they operate in.

?????????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????????? ????????? LAND ROVER! ??????? ?????? 2.7/3.0 ??????! - YouTube (https://youtu.be/ruOZzd5JFbY)

[PerthDisco]

Extended cranking time theory-

5 out of 6 of Fabians glow plugs in failed engine did not work. You don’t get a diagnostic warning but can check current draw.

Critical to starting fast in cold climates. As important as a healthy oil pump.

LR glow plugs glow the best by far compared to aftermarket in a test.

How to check glow plugs - glow plug compare - Land Rover Discovery 3/4 - TDV6 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/vbBscBFpH_s)

[PerthDisco]

Turn on English subtitles unless you speak German

Die Lösung gegen Lagerschäden am LION V6 // Ich brauche eure Hilfe! - YouTube (https://youtu.be/dj3lPbYoyz8)

[101RRS]

After now 100 posts to this thread and lots of other similar threads - lots of theories but still nothing definitive.

[PerthDisco]

After now 100 posts to this thread and lots of other similar threads - lots of theories but still nothing definitive.

It’s up there with Who Killed JFK but at least this thread is a one stop conspiracy theory shop

[DiscoDB]

After now 100 posts to this thread and lots of other similar threads - lots of theories but still nothing definitive.

The reality is you will never get a definitive answer as there are multi-cause failure modes at play with multiple contributing actions and conditions which all prey on the inherent weakness of a 60 degree V6.

What you will get though is theories on how you can mitigate this risk. No single action will prevent failure (short of never driving the car), but there are many things you can do to minimise the risk.

If there was a single definitive answer it would have been addressed by Ford many many years ago.

[scarry]

If there was a single definitive answer it would have been addressed by Ford many many years ago.

They would know what the issue is.They design and build engines at many different plants around the globe.

No doubt it’s an engineering or design issue,which cannot be rectified without redesigning the engine,or doing major changes,so they just left it as it was.

And copped a small percentage of failures.
Not ideal,but that is what is happening,with LR caught up in the issue as well.

[101RRS]

If there was a single definitive answer it would have been addressed by Ford many many years ago.

It was when the Powerstroke 3.0 TDV6 was developed.

[PerthDisco]

I think in the crank subject it’s clear that in some cars bearing shells wear out as Act 1, Scene 1. From there a number of failure modes emerge including a broken crank in some scenarios.

Tangs or no tangs on bearing shells make no difference but for sure lubrication, oil pressure and cranking times have roles to play.

A completely different failure is the belt tensioner on pre 08 cars.

[101RRS]

I think in the crank subject it’s clear that in some cars bearing shells wear out as Act 1, Scene 1. From there a number of failure modes emerge including a broken crank in some scenarios.

Tangs or no tangs on bearing shells make no difference but for sure lubrication, oil pressure and cranking times have roles to play.

A completely different failure is the belt tensioner on pre 08 cars.

The Powerstroke engine has the same basic system and does not suffer these failures so unlikely.

[DiscoDB]

The Powerstroke engine has the same basic system and does not suffer these failures so unlikely.

From what is known they did redesign the crank and bearings, and changed the oil spec. But they may have potentially also made other changes to the lubrication system and even the crankshaft damper/balancing to mitigate the weaknesses of the 2.7/3.0.

So most, if not all, of the contributing factors sound like they should have been addressed. Would be good to see the full details on the design changes made. I bet it is a long list.

Good news is the 3.0 Powerstroke has been confirmed for the new Ranger so we may yet find out more on what Ford did to improve the reliability of the engine. Ford will still need to explain more to address any reliability concerns given the same engine was discontinued for the F-150 after only 3 years.

[PerthDisco]

From what is known they did redesign the crank and bearings, and changed the oil spec. But they may have potentially also made other changes to the lubrication system and even the crankshaft damper/balancing to mitigate the weaknesses of the 2.7/3.0.

So most, if not all, of the contributing factors sound like they should have been addressed. Would be good to see the full details on the design changes made. I bet it is a long list.

Good news is the 3.0 Powerstroke has been confirmed for the new Ranger so we may yet find out more on what Ford did to improve the reliability of the engine. Ford will still need to explain more to address any reliability concerns given the same engine was discontinued for the F-150 after only 3 years.

Correct a simple non return valve in the oil feed above the pump could be added as per the German’s theory.

That clackety clack sound on startup is your hydraulic cam chain tensioner waiting to get oil pressure.

[DiscoDB]

When you change the oil and filter it feels like an eternity waiting for the oil pressure light to go out.

[101RRS]

From what is known they did redesign the crank and bearings, and changed the oil spec. But they may have potentially also made other changes to the lubrication system and even the crankshaft damper/balancing to mitigate the weaknesses of the 2.7/3.0.

So most, if not all, of the contributing factors sound like they should have been addressed. Would be good to see the full details on the design changes made. I bet it is a long list.

Good news is the 3.0 Powerstroke has been confirmed for the new Ranger so we may yet find out more on what Ford did to improve the reliability of the engine. Ford will still need to explain more to address any reliability concerns given the same engine was discontinued for the F-150 after only 3 years.

Yes they simply made the journals a couple of mm thicker so it is now strong enough so it doesn't break.

[Tins]

The Ford badge screwed to the rocker cover provides superior reinforcement than the Land Rover badge… [emoji56]

Why? They're both oval....

[PerthDisco]

Yes they simply made the journals a couple of mm thicker so it is now strong enough so it doesn't break.

I keep bashing on about this and maybe I’m wrong but I propose that the crank breaks after the bearings shag out and maybe rotate but only sometimes as many just get the death rattle. I guess 8/10 owners don’t pick up on change of note and drive on till it seizes at a bearing and snaps the crank. Or if it happens at 100kph it’s pretty instantaneous.

[ramblingboy42]

Someone said something about inherent weakness in V6 engines....

Really? How many V6 engines are pulling road trains around this country? I've not heard of any exploding.

Truckies comments welcome.

[DiscoDB]

Someone said something about inherent weakness in V6 engines....

Really? How many V6 engines are pulling road trains around this country? I've not heard of any exploding.

Truckies comments welcome.

V6 absolutely can be built tough. But they are just one of the worse for harmonics and balancing which induces flexing of the crank. All of this can be designed out - Ford/PSA just pushed the boundaries too far.

[DiscoDB]

I keep bashing on about this and maybe I’m wrong but I propose that the crank breaks after the bearings shag out and maybe rotate but only sometimes as many just get the death rattle. I guess 8/10 owners don’t pick up on change of note and drive on till it seizes at a bearing and snaps the crank. Or if it happens at 100kph it’s pretty instantaneous.

Given we can’t just change the crank, the spun bearing induced failure is probably the one failure mode that we can be most alert to.

[Discodicky]

No one has brought up the suggestion that the broken cranks are subject to a manufacturing problem/defect such as machining/heat treatment etc which was recognised/remedied and LR is aware of the range of engine Serial numbers which are applicable?

No doubt there'd be an LR Service News relating to this if in fact it was the problem.

[scarry]

No doubt there'd be an LR Service News relating to this if in fact it was the problem.

Maybe not,I can guarantee they know a lot more about the issue than anyone else,apart from the engine manufacturer.

If it’s not a safety issue,and it’s going to cost huge $$ to sort,wouldn’t they stay quiet ,which is what they have done?

[Tombie]

When you change the oil and filter it feels like an eternity waiting for the oil pressure light to go out.

Really?

Mines out in under a second.

[PerthDisco]

Really?

Mines out in under a second.

For sure it’s double the time of a normal start up after an oil and filter change for me but measured in seconds though.

Through this learning curve I’ve been conscious of how much cranking on startup. With the latest battery I put in it’s semi-instantaneous. In the darkest coldest winter morning I maybe sense it cranking before starting.

I do think for those in colder parts of Vic would be advised to change glow plugs on older cars.

[Tombie]

Agree.

And it’s always good practice to get engine warm before dropping the oil.
My opinion is that by doing so, everything starts that bit easier post change too, which all helps.

[DiscoDB]

For sure it’s double the time of a normal start up after an oil and filter change for me but measured in seconds though.

Yep - feels like an eternity when you consider that until the oil filter and housing refills that the crank bearings are getting no oil.

Probably a good 10-20 revolutions that the bearings are relying on a very thin film of residual oil.

Pity that the oil filter can’t be pre-charged with oil.

Whilst regular oil changes are good, you certainly want to avoid doing too frequent oil and filter changes.

[DieselLSE]

Whilst regular oil changes are good, you certainly want to avoid doing too frequent oil and filter changes.
Why?

[PerthDisco]

Yep - feels like an eternity when you consider that until the oil filter and housing refills that the crank bearings are getting no oil.

Probably a good 10-20 revolutions that the bearings are relying on a very thin film of residual oil.

Pity that the oil filter can’t be pre-charged with oil.

Whilst regular oil changes are good, you certainly want to avoid doing too frequent oil and filter changes.

At least presumably the oil that drops out of the filter when you remove it falls down the galleries and over the crank bearings.

These engines seem to have almost zero problems with pistons rings or the top end in general due to any oil starvation.

[DiscoDB]

Why?

Because until the system has oil pressure again you could be getting metal on metal contact and this is when the chances of spinning a bearing are at their highest.

[DiscoDB]

penrite oil recommendation for the ford 2.7l tdci

174946

penrite oil recommendation for the landrover 2.7l tdv6

174947


both meet fords wss-m2913-b spec which is the original ford spec in 2012 but their oil specs website states that these days wss-m2913-d should be used where -b was originally recommended

penrite oil recommended -d oil

174948

which is what my old vw 1.9l diesel caddy used and is the slipperiest oil i ever got on my hands over the years [biggrin]

oils aint oils it seems

is confusing as hell

Inc, now that you are a proud owner of a Disco powered Ford (yes I know it is the Disco that is Ford powered)….

Can you confirm exactly what spec oil Ford require for the 2.7 and if they specify the ACEA spec or just a Ford spec.

Also what is the oil change frequency (kms and months)?

[Tombie]

So it gets entertaining.

Ford Territory 27
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211125/345c12109ac16d779fc6141cc80f925e.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211125/9b08e228720068473f8ec605d3ad1d0a.jpg

And LR 27
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211125/00d9e893cc576dc65afddb44a15cf01d.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211125/a978de5fac211c89176c04bffaa4a901.jpg

And Puma Defender
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211125/ef17842691c401c260d5eef1e2717cc3.jpg


So for simplicity in oil stocks at my place it’s the:
Full synthetic 5W-30 at our place.

Enviro is really only for DPF vehicles of which neither mine have.

[incisor]

Inc, now that you are a proud owner of a Disco powered Ford (yes I know it is the Disco that is Ford powered)….

Can you confirm exactly what spec oil Ford require for the 2.7 and if they specify the ACEA spec or just a Ford spec.

Also what is the oil change frequency (kms and months)?

from the handbook - Ford WSS-M2C913-B

175344

i go by what penrite recommend for vehicles out of warranty as mine has 112000 klms on the clock which is also to spec Ford WSS-M2C913-B but ACEA A3/B4 not ACEA A5/B5 which appeals to me personally knowing the history of the engines

175347

PS
first thing i did when i got the vehicle home was put this oil and a new mann oil filter into it

[incisor]

175348

every 15000 klms or 12 months

severe service is 7500 klms

175349

[DiscoDB]

By comparison, this is from the Citroen C6 2005 Handbook. In this case the diesel is the 2.7 without DPF.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211126/db41ee7d0ed8147af74255717d26b412.jpg

Interesting that for “temperate” to “hot” climates they recommend a Semi Synthetic 10W-40 oil to ACEA B3 spec.

For most of us here in Australia, the HPR 5 or HPR Diesel 5 looks to be the best choice.

[incisor]

By comparison, this is from the Citroen C6 Handbook. In this case the diesel is the 2.7.


Interesting that for “temperate” to “hot” climates they recommend a Semi Synthetic 10W-40 oil to ACEA B3 spec.

For us here in Australia, the HPR 5 or HPR Diesel 5 looks to be the best choice.

which in the penrite range comes down to Enviro+ 5w-40 which is ACEA A5/B5 compatible

hmmmm

[loanrangie]

Wow, almost no consistency for essentially the same engine across different vehicles/brands.
And only 5w30 for cold climates.

[discorevy]

I posed the question about different oil recommendations for the same engine to Penrite 2 or 3 weeks ago which they posted in their tech forum.

It's just a theory but the 'preferred category' might just be so they can maintain an even distribution of product that meet the same manufacturer specs

different oil same engine | Penrite Oil Forum | Penrite Oil (https://penriteoil.com.au/forums/topic/1/Car%20Engine%20Oil/thread/1966/different%20oil%20same%20engine?page=1)

[DiscoDB]

I see Christian and Vera have another video up.

Complicated TDV6 crankshaft install - Land Rover Discovery - stress for Toyota drivers - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD9_d4uJPq8)

Love to know where Christian got the Ford engine rebuild manual from. Looks to be the most detailed. Have searched online but had no luck finding. He even has detailed engineering drawings for the crank.

[Discodicky]

Maybe not,I can guarantee they know a lot more about the issue than anyone else,apart from the engine manufacturer.

If it’s not a safety issue,and it’s going to cost huge $$ to sort,wouldn’t they stay quiet ,which is what they have done?

Service News/Bulletins are usually only distributed to the Dealers and definitely NOT for public viewing!![bigsmile]
I was a senior mngr in the State distributorship of a worldwide Japanese earthmoving manufacturer for almost 30 yrs and our S/News were most certainly not for public viewing 'cos if an owner got wind of a problem or design modification you could bet your life they'd want it fixed FOC even if well out of wnty.
Now I am retired and the boot is on the other foot, I expect LR to meet their moral obligations to fix their design ****ups....!! [bigrolf][bigrolf]

[DiscoDB]

Turn on English subtitles unless you speak German

Die Lösung gegen Lagerschäden am LION V6 // Ich brauche eure Hilfe! - YouTube (https://youtu.be/dj3lPbYoyz8)

The check valve idea is interesting. Would make oil filter changes messy as you wouldn’t be able to partially open the oil filter housing and drain the oil back to the sump.

[scarry]

Now I am retired and the boot is on the other foot, I expect LR to meet their moral obligations to fix their design ****ups....!! [bigrolf][bigrolf]

After 70yrs,do you think they are going to suddenly start?[bigrolf][biggrin]

[Eric SDV6SE]

Yep - feels like an eternity when you consider that until the oil filter and housing refills that the crank bearings are getting no oil.

Probably a good 10-20 revolutions that the bearings are relying on a very thin film of residual oil.

Pity that the oil filter can’t be pre-charged with oil.

Whilst regular oil changes are good, you certainly want to avoid doing too frequent oil and filter changes.

Crank bearings are hydrodynamic. Oil wedge is established almost instantly as its driven by rotation. As soon as the crank starts turning, oil pressure increases and supports the crank. To me the issue is ensuring clean oil and this means frequent oil changes. Otherwise, oil contaminants affect boundary lubrication and film stability, leading to metal to metal contact and therefore wear.

[scarry]

Starting an engine when its cold is generally when the most wear occurs.An engine that never stops or never gets a chance to cool down,should last the longest.

Synthetic oils help to reduce this wear.

Have a look at this.

The Million-Mile 2007 Toyota Tundra Pickup: The Teardown (https://www.motortrend.com/features/million-mile-tundra-the-tear-down/)

[4bee]

Starting an engine when its cold is generally when the most wear occurs.An engine that never stops or never gets a chance to cool down,should last the longest.

Synthetic oils help to reduce this wear.

Have a look at this.

The Million-Mile 2007 Toyota Tundra Pickup: The Teardown (https://www.motortrend.com/features/million-mile-tundra-the-tear-down/)



Fairy muff & is reputed to be the same for Taxi engines, hot 24/7. They may be Hi-milers but not necessarily knackered.

[4bee]

Starting an engine when its cold is generally when the most wear occurs.An engine that never stops or never gets a chance to cool down,should last the longest.

Synthetic oils help to reduce this wear.

Have a look at this.

The Million-Mile 2007 Toyota Tundra Pickup: The Teardown (https://www.motortrend.com/features/million-mile-tundra-the-tear-down/)

Paul, been meaning to ask about your S1.re mileage, engine condition, other mechanicals, history etc.


How about a short rundown please?

[DiscoDB]

So this is the list of some of the changes that Ford made for the 3.0 Powerstroke:

- A new forged crankshaft.
- New bearings using different materials.
- Dual stage oil pump.
- Tuned crankshaft damper.
- Revised build tolerances, fillet specs, heat treatment etc.

Add to this we know the oil pump had previously been upgraded for the 2.7 (strengthened and increased oil flow rate), plus the 3.0 got locating tabs on the main bearings.

From this we can conclude the Ford engineers came to the same conclusions as most of the theories out there.

The new Ford Ranger sounds like it will be getting a decent engine after almost 20 years.

[Tins]

So this is the list of some of the changes that Ford made for the 3.0 Powerstroke:

- A new forged crankshaft.
- New bearings using different materials.
- Dual stage oil pump.
- Tuned crankshaft damper.
- Revised build tolerances, fillet specs, heat treatment etc.

Add to this we know the oil pump had previously been upgraded for the 2.7 (strengthened and increased oil flow rate), plus the 3.0 got locating tabs on the main bearings.

From this we can conclude the Ford engineers came to the same conclusions as most of the theories out there.

The new Ford Ranger sounds like it will be getting a decent engine after almost 20 years.

They also going to use it in the new Amarok and whatever they call it in the US?

[scarry]

Paul, been meaning to ask about your S1.re mileage, engine condition, other mechanicals, history etc.


How about a short rundown please?

No worries,

It has a heap of history.

I will do it in the S1 section,and tag you in.
A bit off topic for this thread[biggrin][thumbsupbig]

[Tombie]

By comparison, this is from the Citroen C6 2005 Handbook. In this case the diesel is the 2.7 without DPF.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211126/db41ee7d0ed8147af74255717d26b412.jpg

Interesting that for “temperate” to “hot” climates they recommend a Semi Synthetic 10W-40 oil to ACEA B3 spec.

For most of us here in Australia, the HPR 5 or HPR Diesel 5 looks to be the best choice.

Just because it’s the same engine doesn’t mean it isn’t assembled market specific.

Could easily have different pistons, rings, bearings etc. even different tolerances.

Don’t just go by the designation.

[PerthDisco]

Just because it’s the same engine doesn’t mean it isn’t assembled market specific.

Could easily have different pistons, rings, bearings etc. even different tolerances.

Don’t just go by the designation.

The Citroen’s do have the thermostat in the top plastic fitting that is confusingly referred to as the thermostat on the LR TDV6

[incisor]

as an aside, when did the uprated oil pump with the heavier boss, uprated flow etc become available ?

[PerthDisco]

as an aside, when did the uprated oil pump with the heavier boss, uprated flow etc become available ?

The updated oil pump after MY08

[Tins]

This is a fascinating thread. I'm going to give my TD5 a little pat on the head tomorrow.[smilebigeye] The ZF 4 speed not so much[bigsad], although the one I have now seems pretty OK..... [bigwhistle]

[DiscoDB]

Just because it’s the same engine doesn’t mean it isn’t assembled market specific.

Could easily have different pistons, rings, bearings etc. even different tolerances.

Don’t just go by the designation.

From what I have read the bottom end is common. Bearings are matched to the crank and block, but share the same parts between Ford, Jaguar, Peugeot and Citroen.

It is possible that PSA said let JLR have the tight fit tolerances, and give us all the sloppy bits and we will just use a thicker oil in hot climates, but I doubt it. [emoji851]. (I am just joking - in reality this is possible as there is a sound basis to optimising clearance tolerances with oil specs and the JLR and PSA engineers may have been divided on this one).

I believe the reason for the differences in oil specs is Ford actually specify a Ford standard (913B) but then each car manufacturer has their own supply agreements with different oil suppliers who then together select an appropriate best match to the Ford spec for the market they operate in.

Most of the differences are subtle and relate to oil standards which are compatible with each other, but Citroen look to put more effort into matching the oil spec to the climate conditions being operated in and as such suggest a broader range of oils use.

If operating in warm to hot climates, I personally wouldn’t use 5W-30 and feel the 5W-40 is the better option. I am also not convinced that we should use a true A5/B5 spec oil, but comfortable knowing that A3/B4 is a compatible alternative and meets both Land Rover’s and Citroen’s specs and should offer better wear protection.

However, if you believe that thicker oil can cause a bearing to spin at high revs, then I understand why a low friction / low viscosity 5W-30 A5/B5 spec oil is being recommended by Ford and Land Rover, and even Citroen for cold climates. I am yet to be convinced on this but I get the theory.

On this one you really need to select which theory you believe is more credible - if in doubt just follow the recommendation in the owners manual. [emoji848]

[4bee]

No worries,

It has a heap of history.

I will do it in the S1 section,and tag you in.
A bit off topic for this thread[biggrin][thumbsupbig]


I didn't really mean at this very second or here but in the next 5 mins would do nicely.[bigrolf]


Thanks, I look forward to it when you can tear yourself away from looking at all those crappy cold/hot/oily things..
[biggrin]

[4bee]

This is a fascinating thread. I'm going to give my TD5 a little pat on the head tomorrow.[smilebigeye] The ZF 4 speed not so much[bigsad], although the one I have now seems pretty OK..... [bigwhistle]

:ttiwwp:


Oh, what a caring owner you are Cuppa.


Will you also give it a huge hug & blow it some kisses?[bigrolf]

[Tins]

:ttiwwp:


Oh, what a caring owner you are Cuppa.


Will you also give it a huge hug & blow it some kisses?[bigrolf]

Last time I looked Cuppa is not who I saw in the mirror. What were we saying about senility?

[4bee]

Last time I looked Cuppa is not who I saw in the mirror. What were we saying about senility?

Not sure who you saw but when I looked I saw me just as handsome & blue eyed as ever.[bigrolf]



Sorry about that, just a minor slip of the axe.

[scarry]

Not sure who you saw but when I looked I saw me just as handsome & blue eyed as ever.[bigrol


Forgot to put the spectacles on?[bigrolf][tonguewink]

[4bee]

Forgot to put the spectacles on?[bigrolf][tonguewink]



Spectacles? No no dear boy, they would really bugger up the image especially Horn Rimmed ones, they would make me appear like a bookworm rather than a Sex God. [bigrolf]

[Pedro_The_Swift]

:Thump:

[DiscoDB]

Getting back on topic….

After a week of no use, I estimate the time for oil light to go out is around 4 seconds. This is comparable to the time it takes to refill the oil filter after an oil change.

My oil pump was upgraded when I did the timing belt.

A check valve on the oil pump, or a way to pre-charge the oil system would be nice.

[rick130]

Getting back on topic….

After a week of no use, I estimate the time for oil light to go out is around 4 seconds. This is comparable to the time it takes to refill the oil filter after an oil change.

My oil pump was upgraded when I did the timing belt.

A check valve on the oil pump, or a way to pre-charge the oil system would be nice.Don't sweat it.

There's enough of an oil film to have an instant hydrodynamic wedge of oil as soon as the crank starts to rotate.

The pressure and volume from the pump stop the oil overheating, and replace what is squeezed out the side of the journal.
It doesn't all disappear in a couple of seconds.

[scarry]

Don't sweat it.

There's enough of an oil film to have an instant hydrodynamic wedge of oil as soon as the crank starts to rotate.

The pressure and volume from the pump stop the oil overheating, and replace what is squeezed out the side of the journal.
It doesn't all disappear in a couple of seconds.

Good to see you are back[thumbsupbig]

[haydent]

somewhat related apparently the 3.2 duratorq ford engine if you dont change the oil/filter quick enough the pump will have drained such that it cant prime itself and you have no oil supply...

[4bee]

Getting back on topic….

After a week of no use, I estimate the time for oil light to go out is around 4 seconds. This is comparable to the time it takes to refill the oil filter after an oil change.

My oil pump was upgraded when I did the timing belt.

A check valve on the oil pump, or a way to pre-charge the oil system would be nice.



I would have thought a check valve would have bee fitted on most oil pumps these days to negate Drainback?

[101RRS]

somewhat related apparently the 3.2 duratorq ford engine if you dont change the oil/filter quick enough the pump will have drained such that it cant prime itself and you have no oil supply...

True but that family of engines has nothing in common with the Lion engines - completely different.

[Bulletman]

somewhat related apparently the 3.2 duratorq ford engine if you dont change the oil/filter quick enough the pump will have drained such that it cant prime itself and you have no oil supply...

I mentioned this to a mechanic i know that works at a Ford dealership and he just laughed and said it was another myth probaly started by hi lux owners...

Certainly not saying he knows more than anyone else but he does work on them most days he tells me.

Bulletman

[scarry]

Quite a bit mentioned in here about crankshaft upgrades,so it appears they seem to acknowledge that there was a problem.

Deep Dive: Ford’s 1.5L and 3.0L Diesel Engines (https://www.motortrend.com/features/1905-deep-dive-fords-1-5l-3-0l-diesel-engines/'sm_id=organic_fb_TTN_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR0PS-gg5cz4p2NmIC_WNqEX5CCOlfxZFWQM6dCSoSkbOw9AH_azkaWk HRg)

[BradC]

Quite a bit mentioned in here about crankshaft upgrades,so it appears they seem to acknowledge that there was a problem.

Given a lot of the comments are about building them for a more severe use and having to modify lots to suit, I thought that was pretty clear too. I also love that the design life is 150,000 miles. They don't build them to last....

[DiscoDB]

Given a lot of the comments are about building them for a more severe use and having to modify lots to suit, I thought that was pretty clear too. I also love that the design life is 150,000 miles. They don't build them to last....

That would most likely be the B10 design life - which means 10% will need a major rebuild by 150,000 miles. That sounds appropriate for a light duty engine.

I have seen it stated that the Ford 7.3L has a B10 design life of 200,000 miles, and the Cummins 5.9L has a B50 life of 350,000 miles (which also correlates to a B10 of 200,000).

Ford quote the B10 design life of the 6.7L Powerstroke as 500,000 miles, so looks like B10 is the standard they use for stating design life.

[DiscoDB]

By chance I may have stumbled across a “smoking gun” in the mystery of the spun bearing failures.

Since doing an oil change and fitting a new Mahle filter, have noticed the time for the oil light to go out has definitely increased.

I searched on a few forums and often spun bearing failures are reported after an oil change - the primary culprit being a collapsed nipple due to fitting the filter wrong. I know in my case it is not a crushed nipple as I always fit the filter first, then the housing which is torqued up to 25Nm.

On a Russian forum it was raised that sometimes the oil nipple o-ring can be undersized with the Mahle filter and it is recommended to use a Mann filter. The difference is small but it is claimed the Mann filter retains more oil in the filter housing for longer when parked up.

This would also explain why some people do observe longer times for the oil light to go out than other people.

On a Ford forum, the same observation was made by people who claim you must use a genuine Ford filter and not an aftermarket filter. One owner of a Tdci SZ territory had a recent spun bearing failure at 200K following an oil change and had noticed the oil light took longer to go off. Their symptoms started with the extended oil light, then later it started marking noises at which point they started to investigate what was wrong, and then it failed a month after this. So plenty of warning signs.

So believing you must always take note when something is different with any Land Rover, I have ordered a Mann oil filter and a genuine Ford filter and will compare nipple o-ring sizes against the installed Mahle filter. The D3 is parked up in the meantime.

[101RRS]

Well I did an oil change on Monday - at 200,100km - always used Repco oil filters as that is what my supplier has. Oil pressure up in 4 secs and now when fully primed oil pressure comes up immediately on start.

[4bee]

Well I did an oil change on Monday - at 200,100km - always used Repco oil filters as that is what my supplier has. Oil pressure up in 4 secs and now when fully primed oil pressure comes up immediately on start.


I understand some,not all, oil filters are already fitted with a Non Return Valve so could make a big difference on startup time.

Possibly a Flap Type?



FWIW. I subscribe to Vehicle Recall Team recalls@infrastructure.gov.au


Have only ever seen one for Land Rover & from memory that one was for an EV.

[DiscoDB]

Well I did an oil change on Monday - at 200,100km - always used Repco oil filters as that is what my supplier has. Oil pressure up in 4 secs and now when fully primed oil pressure comes up immediately on start.

Yes - exactly how it should be hence realised something has changed. This is one engine not to ignore when something is different to normal.

Ironically it is only reading about this topic ad nauseam did it make me think - hey that can’t be right.

Will post findings once new filters arrive.

[Tombie]

I’ve been sourcing Ryco from Repco and been happy with performance so far.

When clipping the filter into position it’s a noticeable positive fit.


Good detective work..

[PerthDisco]

The whole 2.7 prising old filter out, changing cap o-ring, locating new filter nipple in first then screwing down cap with associated clunks as it locates and locks into the filter is a total bollocks arrangement.

You’ve got to get right up on the engine to positively ID the nipple hole position (or at least I do).

I’m always fingers crossed on startup after.

My great fear is a nipple oring coming loose. I always check the old one is there and have never seen it come off so that’s a plus.

Then you change a spin on can type oil filter on another engine and it’s two second job with a lick of oil on the seal.

This bloke primes his filter housing (showing for a 3.0).

Priming the oil system on TDV6 3.0 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/DwLwMpyrnio)

[BradC]

On a Ford forum, the same observation was made by people who claim you must use a genuine Ford filter and not an aftermarket filter.

A few oil changes ago I bought a "Genuine Ford filter". It had Mahle stamped on the box.
Just to check, I ran out and bought another one. It has Mahle OX 205/2 printed under the ford part number on the box. I compare that to a "Mahle original OX 205/2 D" I happen to have on my desk.

Spigot height :
Ford : 12.17mm
Mahle : 12.17mm

Spigot diameter :
Ford : 10.08mm
Mahle 10.12mm

All within the error of measurement. I can find no material difference between the filters other than the markings. Both are marked Mahle - Made in Austria, just the size of the printing is smaller on the Ford and its fainter.

[DiscoDB]

Looks like I should get a Ryco filter as well for comparison. 🧐

[DiscoDB]

This bloke primes his filter housing (showing for a 3.0).

Priming the oil system on TDV6 3.0 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/DwLwMpyrnio)

That is a good idea.

You will notice on the 3.0 they no longer have the spigot either. And once full, it looked like the line was holding oil and not rapidly draining off, so once the housing is back on (and started again) it should stay primed unless air can get into the system.

Oval Autos do a lot of engine rebuilds and would have learnt the hard way at some stage.

[PerthDisco]

That is a good idea.

You will notice on the 3.0 they no longer have the spigot either. And once full, it looked like the line was holding oil and not rapidly draining off, so once the housing is back on it should always stay primed unless air can get into the system.

Oval Autos do a lot of engine rebuilds and would have learnt the hard way at some stage.

Makes a lot of sense to me.

[BradC]

That is a good idea.

If you consider putting unfiltered oil into the gallerys I suppose. Plenty of mechanics refuse to pre-fill a filter due to the risk of contamination.


You will notice on the 3.0 they no longer have the spigot either.

From what I've been able to tell, on the 2.7 the spigot blocks the hole that drains the fluid from the filter housing back into the sump. So it's sole purpose in life is to block that hole until you loosen the housing, at which time it lets the oil drain away. How does the housing drain on the 3.0 when you do a change?

[DiscoDB]

If you consider putting unfiltered oil into the gallerys I suppose. Plenty of mechanics refuse to pre-fill a filter due to the risk of contamination.

From what I've been able to tell, on the 2.7 the spigot blocks the hole that drains the fluid from the filter housing back into the sump. So it's sole purpose in life is to block that hole until you loosen the housing, at which time it lets the oil drain away. How does the housing drain on the 3.0 when you do a change?

You will note he is being very careful to only put oil into the pre-filtered supply line back to the pump and not anything post the filter.

Interesting that they completely re-designed the oil filter housing and cooler on the 3.0, obviously addressing a design issue with the 2.7 set up.

[4bee]

If you consider putting unfiltered oil into the gallerys I suppose. Plenty of mechanics refuse to pre-fill a filter due to the risk of contamination.



From what I've been able to tell, on the 2.7 the spigot blocks the hole that drains the fluid from the filter housing back into the sump. So it's sole purpose in life is to block that hole until you loosen the housing, at which time it lets the oil drain away. How does the housing drain on the 3.0 when you do a change?


Plenty of mechanics refuse to pre-fill a filter due to the risk of contamination.

Really? In the '95 D1 Facelift V8 manual pre-filling was the recommended method.

If all one's dispensing containers were clean there shouldn't be a prob. I did it for years.

[BradC]

You will note he is being very careful to only put oil into the pre-filtered supply line back to the pump and not anything post the filter.

Nope, the filter runs outside -> inside. He's pouring oil in the clean side gallery which runs from the filter to the bearings.


The way to change the oil is the same on the 3.0. Need to open housing 4-5 turns to let air in and drain the last of the oil off.

Interesting that they completely re-designed the oil housing and cooler on the 3.0, obviously addressing a design issue with the 2.7 set up.

Yeah, I can't quite figure out what the spigot actually does aside from allow a faster drain of the filter housing when you open it up, and what they've done on the 3.0 that allows it to do the same without the extra hole.

On either, I can't see how oil can drain out of the filter/gallery without air being admitted somewhere. The only sane place I could imagine air being admitted is draining back through the cam galleries. I can't see any form of "anti-drainback" valve on any of the oil system, and so I can't see how even if the spigot was malformed it would allow drainage to happen that wasn't going to happen anyway. The only issue I see with the spigot is if it's malformed or destroyed it's going to allow an awful lot of oil to avoid the filter and galleries and just drop back to the sump. But we already know that's the quickest way to engine destruction.

[DiscoDB]

Pretty sure the flow is inside to outside - but happy to be corrected on this.

For a canister type filter it is outside to inside, but the cartridge type in the TDV6 I believe is the other way around.

This is why you cut open the filter to inspect what contaminates have been caught inside the oil filter.

[DiscoDB]

Nope, the filter runs outside -> inside. He's pouring oil in the clean side gallery which runs from the filter to the bearings.



Yeah, I can't quite figure out what the spigot actually does aside from allow a faster drain of the filter housing when you open it up, and what they've done on the 3.0 that allows it to do the same without the extra hole.

On either, I can't see how oil can drain out of the filter/gallery without air being admitted somewhere. The only sane place I could imagine air being admitted is draining back through the cam galleries. I can't see any form of "anti-drainback" valve on any of the oil system, and so I can't see how even if the spigot was malformed it would allow drainage to happen that wasn't going to happen anyway. The only issue I see with the spigot is if it's malformed or destroyed it's going to allow an awful lot of oil to avoid the filter and galleries and just drop back to the sump. But we already know that's the quickest way to engine destruction.

On the oil filter housing cap, there is a small hole in the threaded section which I presumed is exposed after 4-5 turns. This lets the air in. At the same time, the filter would also get lifted pulling the spigot up.

When I get the oil filters to change again, I will have a close look and take a picture of the cap.

There is also a blocked filter bypass, but would probably need to remove the oil filter housing and cooler to work out which way it all flows. No plans to do this……yet……

[josh.huber]

If you consider putting unfiltered oil into the gallerys I suppose. Plenty of mechanics refuse to pre-fill a filter due to the risk of contamination.



From what I've been able to tell, on the 2.7 the spigot blocks the hole that drains the fluid from the filter housing back into the sump. So it's sole purpose in life is to block that hole until you loosen the housing, at which time it lets the oil drain away. How does the housing drain on the 3.0 when you do a change?

Hey Brad,

The 3.0l diesel has a hole in the bottom of the housing. When the filter is installed it pushes on a metal arm with a rubber bung mounted on it, the rubber bung then covers the hole.

I use a 4 1/2 turns to let it drain. It's enough to open to drain hole and let air into the filter for it to drain.

[BradC]

Hey Brad,

The 3.0l diesel has a hole in the bottom of the housing. When the filter is installed it pushes on a metal arm with a rubber bung mounted on it, the rubber bung then covers the hole.

Perfect. So it works exactly the same way as the 2.7, just without the ability to get it wrong and lunch the motor.

[PerthDisco]

I may be helpful here;

Recently removed oil cooler

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211201/035b1d534acdfebdad509d7717ab49fc.jpg

Removed centre

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211201/09eec4ace1940bd74a229ebf7ceba85c.jpg

Leaves these two open holes but interestingly C is a spring loaded plug. You can lift it up with finger nails. I’ve never heard this mentioned as this will only open with pressure behind it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211201/03f0293485a7fa292a83d20d1c690648.jpg

Filter sits like this in contact only partially but the spigot completely blocks the hole to A.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211201/1755c4abe158e75bc798040f66d27daf.jpg

So filled with oil and only escape is via A B or C holes. You can see C is submerged and not leaking.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211201/33c63533b512d9b2c3eb0f94dcb7aee7.jpg

These are the holes and logically C is the one opposite A as middle one is coolant.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211201/9af6b1e82af55ccdcb56966fef914fda.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211201/f4241f6c22674b2599f3a71d65e5d78c.jpg

So I reckon C is supply from oil pump and the filter cleans from the outside with B the filtered oil return and A a drain plug. Why this is a different circuit to B I don’t know.

On that basis there is a NRV in the form of the C spring plug.

Edit: I checked and the spigot on the filter does not pass any oil. It’s purely a plug.

[BradC]

There are 2 unknowns then.
- Where is the bypass valve that should allow oil from C to B when the filter element is blocked?
- Is A really on the clean side? If so then removing the element would drain the entire filter housing into the oil gallery rather than back to the sump.

Note the B spigot that sits inside the filter is quite high. This is generally deliberate to ensure no un-filtered oil can get in there as the housing drains.

Interesting to note the housing has an anti-drainback valve built in.

Another possible "delay" in the oil pressure light going off after a cold start (but not a filter change) would be the time taken to pump up the hydraulic lifters. That would also explain why it doesn't happen warm.

[Pippin]

There are 2 unknowns then.
- Where is the bypass valve that should allow oil from C to B when the filter element is blocked?
- Is A really on the clean side? If so then removing the element would drain the entire filter housing into the oil gallery rather than back to the sump.

Note the B spigot that sits inside the filter is quite high. This is generally deliberate to ensure no un-filtered oil can get in there as the housing drains.

Interesting to note the housing has an anti-drainback valve built in.

Another possible "delay" in the oil pressure light going off after a cold start (but not a filter change) would be the time taken to pump up the hydraulic lifters. That would also explain why it doesn't happen warm. I got familiar with it again today and as usual the filter housing drained some of its contents into the "V" despite the 4 turns of the housing. Aaaagh

[DiscoDB]

I am sure the spring loaded part is the blocked filter bypass valve. Will only open if the filter is blocked and allow oil through.

Would need to split the housing open now to see the oil channels inside it.

[PerthDisco]

I am sure the spring loaded part is the blocked filter bypass valve. Will only open if the filter is blocked and allow oil through.

Would need to split the housing open now to see the oil channels inside it.

I really think it’s a NRV on the feed side from the oil pump as it comes from the front of the engine above the oil pump.

B drops down the back feeding the galleries to the crank bearings and top end.

A is like a return to the sump. When I change oil after the initial drain I then undo the filter cap a few turns and the new dump of oil is very quick out of the sump as the reservoir drains.

Notice also that the plastic centre is only open at the top of the spear so logically the oil stays at this fill level inside the cover when the engine is shut off.

Explains also why there is a step under the filter base to allow better drainage as soon as the spigot comes out and opens the A drain.

In reality how could a filter get blocked? Yes, if you didn’t change the oil for 7 years it could get gluggy but that’s the least of your trouble.

[DiscoDB]

Ok - so if this a NRV on the feed side and it does not seat properly this would also let the oil drain back to the pump. Maybe it is time to replace the oil filter housing and cooler.

So where is the blocked filter bypass valve?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211201/0568fcd2497093f93762711175bd41cb.jpg

[PerthDisco]

Exploded oil cooler

The clean passages are oil and the black passages are coolant which may explain the same slimy grunge I was getting in the reservoir bottle! A series of very flat old and hard rubber seals keeps everything separated.

Fuel cooler module at bottom the coolant passes pretty much straight through.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211201/eda3fb8963d7e16258558ffdc592440d.jpg

Here’s the holes related to pictures above. Blue coolant and green oil. The coolant flow may be back the front but doesn’t matter here.

So focusing on the C valve which can only open one way the oil enters the housing and then dips into the cooler part before popping up under the NRV to enter the filter housing. The oil is therefore cooled after the sump before the filter by my logic.

B is straight out as is A via the previously marked holes.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211201/9ae685d536cdd7b16a635d548a7b9fee.jpg

Here’s the NRV spring close up.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211201/2faf6b9a3a1de8cc72f61b44a258055f.jpg

[BradC]

Certainly going above and beyond there! So we now know the oil is cooled pre-filter and the assembly has anti-drainback built in. 2 things we didn't know earlier.

What's the chances the bypass valve is in the top of the cap and forms part of the spring assembly that keeps the filter seated? If it wasn't there there'd be no need for the top of the filter element to have a hole in it.

[DiscoDB]

Now if only that was in the manual.

This is excellent - so between the NRV, o-rings, plastic centre piece, bypass and gasket there is plenty of parts to fail in this lovely part.

Time to start planning to change out the oil cooler and filter assembly.

[PerthDisco]

Now if only that was in the manual.

This is excellent - so between the NRV, o-rings, plastic centre piece, bypass and gasket there is plenty of parts to fail in this lovely part.

Time to start planning to change out the oil cooler and filter assembly.

It’s all making a lot more sense at least. Yes, replace that cooler, I’d almost put it in the 7 year timing belt category.

[Falcon500]

I might change my oil cooler too after seeing all this...on the subject of replacement coolers, what's the consensus of using genuine vs. Nissens brand? I know genuine is usually better but at £300 vs £100 the Nissens is pretty tempting.

[DiscoDB]

If you consider putting unfiltered oil into the gallerys I suppose. Plenty of mechanics refuse to pre-fill a filter due to the risk of contamination.


So now we have established the flow direction, going back to Oval Auto’s filling the oil gallery’s with new oil.

Brad is correct in that you normally shouldn’t introduce unfiltered oil after the oil filter. All it would take is a small contaminate to end up in say the Turbo bearing and you are up for an expensive rebuild.

Ideally you would pre-filter the new oil and then transfer the oil into an oil safe container.

It is possible they have pre-filtered the oil, but they are using an open and used oil jug to pour the oil.

If I was running an engine rebuild workshop, I would buy (or even make up) a filter cart with a pump to pre-filter the oil and pump into the gallery.

[PerthDisco]

So now we have established the flow direction, going back to Oval Auto’s filling the oil gallery’s with new oil.

Brad is correct in that you normally shouldn’t introduce unfiltered oil after the oil filter. All it would take is a small contaminate to end up in say the Turbo bearing and you are up for an expensive rebuild.

Ideally you would pre-filter the new oil and then transfer the oil into an oil safe container.

It is possible they have pre-filtered the oil, but they are using an open and used oil jug to pour the oil.

If I was running an engine rebuild workshop, I would buy (or even make up) a filter cart with a pump to pre-filter the oil and pump into the gallery.

The centre of the spear is the feed to the bearings. Inside the filter. The oil is being forced through the filter into the centre cavity.

On the 2.7 this is only open on the top so this is the height of oil retained in the filter housing with engine off.

If I was filling from a new oil container I’d never think contaminants could be present.

[Tombie]

I’ve tested new containers of oil and you’d be surprised!

Stop over analysing the task.

Remove filter, drain sump.
Lubricate oring on new filter and then place into housing and clip in - doesn’t need visibility just gently rotate until you can feel it find the correct location and then push home.
Fit new seal to cover, lubricate with new oil and Screw cover on.
By now sump is well and truly drained so fit plug.
Fill engine with oil - I measure mine out and shy by 100ml.

I then start up and run for a minute before shutting down and waiting a flow back interval (2.7) and then check dipstick.

Top off to suit and job done.

[DiscoDB]

The centre of the spear is the feed to the bearings. Inside the filter. The oil is being forced through the filter into the centre cavity.

On the 2.7 this is only open on the top so this is the height of oil retained in the filter housing with engine off.

If I was filling from a new oil container I’d never think contaminants could be present.

You would only need to do what Oval Auto’s did on a new rebuilt engine on first start.

I thought they had come up with a clever way to prime the pump (which is on the unfiltered side).

You should always consider new oil as dirty oil. Sounds strange but contamination through supply, storage and transport makes the oil dirtier than it will be in service once it starts passing a filter - especially if you are using bulk oil supplies in drums which a lot of workshops do.

You watch the Piston Broke guy rebuild a TDV6 and he is doing it in the middle of a filthy dust coated workshop with no tolerance checks and you can just imagine Vera saying [emoji33][emoji33][emoji33][emoji33][emoji33][emoji33]

[101RRS]

I cannot see this line of discussion having anything to do with 2.7 cranks breaking - it is clearly a random occurance as if it was symptomatic they would all break and if there were issues with changing the filter etc as been discussed then they would all be failing - noting that if the filter goes in wrong it caused oil starvation and failure like any engine would - the crank does not break in this circumstance - in 99% of crank failed engines, the filter was fitted correctly.

[Tombie]

Don’t make up stats [emoji41][emoji56]

[BradC]

I cannot see this line of discussion having anything to do with 2.7 cranks braking

It's as credible a line of discussion as any other discussion on TDV6 cranks breaking. Wild speculation is all we have, so don't go trying to be the fun police now.

Anyway, we learned a few things about the oil cooler and flow that we didn't know before, so it's not entirely a waste of electrons.

[DiscoDB]

I believe lubrication issues are at the core of why bearings spin and this leads to breaking the crank. Seems to be more prevalent with the 2.7 than the 3.0 but I don’t have any stats on this.

I also believe that a large % of these failures are related to undiagnosed symptoms that if acted on early could have lead to a different outcome.

So putting aside pure crank failure (without a spun bearing), or original assembly issues (which should have failed by now), at present the leading candidates for why these fail are:

1. Oil specification.
2. Oil life.
3. Oil starvation.
4. Oil contamination.

Land Rover I believe took an easy way out to just blame oil spec without acknowledging there is more to this story, but they may be 100% correct and in which case the solution is as simple as use 5W-30 oil to Ford spec wss-m2c913b and follow the LR schedule and procedure for oil changes and you are 98.7% likely to not have a snapped crank.

I think with some good insight though we can do better than that and bump it up to 99.9% (yes I made up these stats). [emoji851]

[PerthDisco]

It's as credible a line of discussion as any other discussion on TDV6 cranks breaking. Wild speculation is all we have, so don't go trying to be the fun police now.

Anyway, we learned a few things about the oil cooler and flow that we didn't know before, so it's not entirely a waste of electrons.

I think it’s a super important Aulro discovery (pardon pun) as literally the whole world is pointing to the oil filter on top as the worst possible design as all oil flows back to sump on shutdown and the pump needs to fill it all up again especially after a long shutdown. We’ve shown that not to be the case as long as the NRV works. Maybe that’s a fail point maybe not.

[BradC]

I think it’s a super important Aulro discovery (pardon pun) as literally the whole world is pointing to the oil filter on top as the worst possible design as all oil flows back to sump on shutdown and the pump needs to fill it all up again especially after a long shutdown. We’ve shown that not to be the case as long as the NRV works. Maybe that’s a fail point maybe not.

An interesting test will be timing the oil light after a change, vs after a cold sit.
Mine is pretty consistent in the morning at about 3 seconds from turn of key (not fire up) after sitting all night. Next time I do a change I'll have to remember to time it accurately. When I want to get precise I use a video camera and count frames. Tacho needle moving to oil light out would be a good metric.

There are oil galleries to the cams, crank and lifters. I do wonder how much (if any) oil weeps back to the sump via the mains when the engine is off but hot. Given the mass of oil in the heads, there'd be a bit of pressure under gravity for that to weep back. The lifters are going to drain also. So despite there being good flow after sitting, there's always going to be low pressure until the galleries and lifters are filled.

I honestly think this is jumping at shadows. Unless the bearings are dead dry, rotational movement actually sucks oil from the gallery to fill the space left by the hydrodynamic wedge as the journal rotates. If it was such a problem, the mis-placed filter would cause instant engine death before it was backed out of the driveway. The usual report is "it sounded a bit funny and died a fair way down the road". It'd go a fair way on just the oil in the galleries before it started to scrape up.

[DiscoDB]

We’ve shown that not to be the case as long as the NRV works. Maybe that’s a fail point maybe not.

I have followed a lot of threads on this topic from all over the world and no one seems to discuss - what if the oil filter assembly has a fault, let alone talk about why the NRV does not always work.

There is a great thread on LR-Club.com that got close, but then the discussion just stopped after almost 800 posts. I won’t link to it because they swear a lot.

Ford/PSA/JLR don’t even state that there is a NRV, let alone the role of the filter spigot. Instead they just talk about a full flow bypass that should never be needed (but don’t define where it is).

Any day you learn something new is a good day. Plus more fun than discussing COVID. [emoji41][emoji40]

[DiscoDB]

Just side track a bit on the topic of how long you can run an engine with no oil.

In my youth I may have been involved in several attempts to kill an engine through oil starvation. On one occasion, we gave up (we possibly ran out of beers). This mighty little Toyota engine refused to die despite being revved flat stick for hours and hours. No oil, no water, it just ran and ran. The RSPCA (A for Auto) would have laid charged against us.

So I agree 3-4 seconds even on every start should not be a problem……but you are knocking off little bits of bearing with time and if it grabs it spins.

This is where the thinner / low friction oil theory has a lot of merit to not put too much drag on the bearing shell when the oil is cold.

The counter argument is it is under hot conditions that you spin the bearing when the oil is at its thinnest and hence the thicker / wear protection oil theory comes into play.

[101RRS]

Don’t make up stats [emoji41][emoji56]

Well prove it is not so [thumbsupbig].

[4bee]

I’ve tested new containers of oil and you’d be surprised!

Stop over analysing the task.

Remove filter, drain sump.
Lubricate O ring on new filter and then place into housing and clip in - doesn’t need visibility just gently rotate until you can feel it find the correct location and then push home.
Fit new seal to cover, lubricate with new oil and Screw cover on.
By now sump is well and truly drained so fit plug.
Fill engine with oil - I measure mine out and shy by 100ml.

I then start up and run for a minute before shutting down and waiting a flow back interval (2.7) and then check dipstick.


Top off to suit and job done.

You are so bloody practical, Mike.:clap2::Rolling:

[Tombie]

You are so bloody practical, Mike.:clap2::Rolling:

Predictable is good [emoji41]
I do my servicing, check my vehicle and predict it’s good for another interval. [emoji23]

What was always unpredictable was how it would come back from someone else working on it.

[Tombie]

Well prove it is not so [thumbsupbig].

Hehe. I cannot. I haven’t spoken to 100 failed engine owners [emoji41]

[4bee]

Hehe. I cannot. I haven’t spoken to 100 failed engine owners [emoji41]



YET.[bigrolf]

[incisor]

I think it’s a super important Aulro discovery (pardon pun) as literally the whole world is pointing to the oil filter on top as the worst possible design as all oil flows back to sump on shutdown and the pump needs to fill it all up again especially after a long shutdown. We’ve shown that not to be the case as long as the NRV works. Maybe that’s a fail point maybe not.

the mann filter has a non return valve they say...

why would there be 2 ?

[PerthDisco]

the mann filter has a non return valve they say...

why would there be 2 ?

The actual paper filter is just a cartridge with a nipple plug on the bottom and a hole in the middle. There’s no gizmos or moving parts

[incisor]

The actual paper filter is just a cartridge with a nipple plug on the bottom and a hole in the middle. There’s no gizmos or moving parts

that is what i thought when i looked at it but have seen it listed twice that there is a nrv...

someone doing copy and pastes into spec sheets.... maybe

[BradC]

the mann filter has a non return valve they say...

If you look at it from a different angle, the filter is the media, cartridge and housing. A conventional spin-on is the same, it's just in a sealed all in one tin. The anti-drainback valve is usually a rubber skirt over the inlet holes.

[Tombie]

YET.[bigrolf]

Interesting you should say that.
I only know one owner personally, that guy had done over 500,000km when his engine let go.

And that was an early D3

[4bee]

Interesting you should say that.
I only know one owner personally, that guy had done over 500,000km when his engine let go.

And that was an early D3



So, 'twas about due for a bit of work anyway?


Still, one doesn't expect to have to spend big $ what would you be looking at $ wise $10 - 15,000?

[DiscoDB]

Received the MANN oil filter today. The OD measured across the o-ring on the spigot was 11.1mm

Removed the MAHLE filter - oil had already drained to the level of the drain hole (which is meant to be plugged by the spigot). But was happy to see it was completely flooded above the anti-drain valve.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/cd644c24c5003958cc675eef44bedeb3.jpg

By the way - this is fresh new oil that is already black from less than 1 hour of running - just shows how much oil is left behind during an oil change.

The OD of the MAHLE filter o-ring was 10.8mm.

This difference is only a fraction of a mm but exactly what people reported on Lr-club.com.

The MANN filter locked in nice and firm when fitting. Will have to get a Ryco filter next time to compare.

Normal 4 secs for oil light to go off first time, and then on re-start goes out as engine is cranking. After the weekend will park the car up for a few days to see if there is any change with the oil light off time. 🤞🤞🤞🤞

Meanwhile some more photo’s.

First is the hole in the housing just below the rubber seal. When you open up the filter 4-5 turns this not only lifts the filter element up and out of the drain hole, but this small hole in the housing is also exposed and allows air in so it drains off.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/fb14c09050c302a5201fe6866318f905.jpg

Next is the blocked filter bypass. As Brad suspected it does appear to be in the top of the housing cover itself. Does not look to be serviceable.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/98b2c9f6f62c602a8e3f4741115ec0c1.jpg

The photo is difficult to see, but it does look like a match for a typical bypass valve, but would have to pull out to truly know.

[BradC]

Received the MANN oil filter today. The OD measured across the o-ring on the spigot was 11.1mm


The OD of the MAHLE filter o-ring was 10.8mm.


How are you measuring the O-ring? I'm measuring it by closing the calipers until there is a slight drag on the jaws. Confirmed by looking for light between the O-ring and jaws. Otherwise I can just squeeze it down with the calipers. Measured like that, the OD of the new and unused MAHLE filter O-ring I have here is 11.05mm and the Ford is about 11.0.

We really need the orifice it inserts into to be measured to be meaningful given the Spigot measures ~10.07mm.

[4bee]

How are you measuring the O-ring? I'm measuring it by closing the calipers until there is a slight drag on the jaws. Confirmed by looking for light between the O-ring and jaws. Otherwise I can just squeeze it down with the calipers. Measured like that, the OD of the new and unused MAHLE filter O-ring I have here is 11.05mm and the Ford is about 11.0.

We really need the orifice it inserts into to be measured to be meaningful given the Spigot measures ~10.07mm.


Undersized would be good wouldn't it? It allows the seal to expand a whisker when tightening & I see that as a good thing.

[BradC]

Undersized would be good wouldn't it? It allows the seal to expand a whisker when tightening & I see that as a good thing.

Not really. It's an internal O-ring seal, so you want the ring to compress into the hole to provide the seal.

I've popped out the Mahle O-ring I have here.
Spigot :
ID : 7.28mm
OD : ~10.1mm

O-ring :
OD : ~11.05mm
ID : ~7.2mm
Thickness : 2mm.

That shows my measurements must be off as 7.2 + 4mm > 11.05mm

[PerthDisco]

Received the MANN oil filter today. The OD measured across the o-ring on the spigot was 11.1mm

Removed the MAHLE filter - oil had already drained to the level of the drain hole (which is meant to be plugged by the spigot). But was happy to see it was completely flooded above the anti-drain valve.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/cd644c24c5003958cc675eef44bedeb3.jpg

By the way - this is fresh new oil that is already black from less than 1 hour of running - just shows how much oil is left behind during an oil change.

The OD of the MAHLE filter o-ring was 10.8mm.

This difference is only a fraction of a mm but exactly what people reported on Lr-club.com.

The MANN filter locked in nice and firm when fitting. Will have to get a Ryco filter next time to compare.

Normal 4 secs for oil light to go off first time, and then on re-start goes out as engine is cranking. After the weekend will park the car up for a few days to see if there is any change with the oil light off time. [emoji1696][emoji1696][emoji1696][emoji1696]

Meanwhile some more photo’s.

First is the hole in the housing just below the rubber seal. When you open up the filter 4-5 turns this not only lifts the filter element up and out of the drain hole, but this small hole in the housing is also exposed and allows air in so it drains off.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/fb14c09050c302a5201fe6866318f905.jpg

Next is the blocked filter bypass. As Brad suspected it does appear to be in the top of the housing cover itself. Does not look to be serviceable.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/98b2c9f6f62c602a8e3f4741115ec0c1.jpg

The photo is difficult to see, but it does look like a match for a typical bypass valve, but would have to pull out to truly know.

Interesting - this is getting good. Yes the filter housing only drains to level of the bung so there’s half a cup of black left over and you never see the NRV inlet submerged under it.

So, theoretically, if the filter was blocked the bypass would allow pressurised oil surrounding the filter into the middle section at the top where the opening of the spear is to complete the circuit?

I just remembered my new oil cooler came with a new filter cover and filter I dumped in a box. I used the old filter cover and a new Mahle filter because the old cover has the yellow LR markings on it whereas new one is black. Here’s what I found;

The 3 Amigos - when I extracted the filter out of the housing the bypass widget actually pulled out with it. Maybe a good choice reusing the LR original. Same bypass spring design as the NRV on the inlet side.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/352fe1cd61f09828b038db3c30cda5a5.jpg

Widget top view

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/380fde6d967b0a8d122cd889b6426b2f.jpg

Widget side with galleries to allow oil flow from outside to the centre as per the theory above.

This are the tangs that grip onto the top of the filter. This butts right up to the open top of the spear that the filter sits over.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/80a41ebf2a2b8f1c97fa840f335d53db.jpg

Inside housing sans widget. A series of teeth that clip into the top of the widget.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/968672a81a015f09f86f70fa1750d49d.jpg

Filter can slide right up to top of widget collar.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/0f135fd6994bf5d104276801f36bcc84.jpg

When you undo filter cover it withdraws to this point then lifts up filter. This is what you are fighting to prise it out of the cover each time you change it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/7af601efc29fad7e6475b4a00dca06c4.jpg

[DiscoDB]

How are you measuring the O-ring? I'm measuring it by closing the calipers until there is a slight drag on the jaws. Confirmed by looking for light between the O-ring and jaws. Otherwise I can just squeeze it down with the calipers. Measured like that, the OD of the new and unused MAHLE filter O-ring I have here is 11.05mm and the Ford is about 11.0.

We really need the orifice it inserts into to be measured to be meaningful given the Spigot measures ~10.07mm.

I agree it is hard to compare measurements taken by different people, so assuming you are consistent it is the absolute difference that is more telling.

In my case, I adjusted the verniers until I could pass over the o-ring with just a slight grab on both sides.

So where I was getting contact on both sides at 11.1mm with the MANN, there was an air gap with the MAHLE and I had to reduced to 10.8mm to get the same “feel” in contact.

At best these values would be +/-0.1mm and as you previously noted could all just be within manufacturing tolerances.

The real test will be to see what happens after being parked up for 3-4 days. 🤞🤞

[DiscoDB]

When you pull out the old filter it does feel like you are going to break something.

So if the widget (I like that name) was accidentally pulled out and thrown out with the old oily filter, then someone not understanding how this is set up could refit a new filter with no bypass valve at all, meaning you would always get oil bypassing the filter.

Something else Ford forgot to warn it’s customers about when it wrote up the technical manual. [emoji33][emoji33]

[BradC]

with the MAHLE and I had to reduced to 10.8mm to get the same “feel” in contact.

How long had the Mahle been installed for?

[BradC]

Interesting - this is getting good. Yes the filter housing only drains to level of the bung so there’s half a cup of black left over and you never see the NRV inlet submerged under it.

So, theoretically, if the filter was blocked the bypass would allow pressurised oil surrounding the filter into the middle section at the top where the opening of the spear is to complete the circuit?

That looks about right. Same on a spin-on with the relief valve is at the far end of the media. See, lots of valuable teardown information in this thread. Was your replacement cooler a Nissens?

Any chance you have a set of verniers and could measure the hole the spigot on the filter pops in to?

[4bee]

Not really. It's an internal O-ring seal, so you want the ring to compress into the hole to provide the seal.

I've popped out the Mahle O-ring I have here.
Spigot :
ID : 7.28mm
OD : ~10.1mm

O-ring :
OD : ~11.05mm
ID : ~7.2mm
Thickness : 2mm.

That shows my measurements must be off as 7.2 + 4mm > 11.05mm



Aaahh, ok.

Thanks Brad.

[DiscoDB]

How long had the Mahle been installed for?

6 days and less than 1 hour of running. O-ring should have retained its memory and expanded back to original diameter as it never got hot. May have even swollen up a bit from the oil soak.

[Tombie]

So, 'twas about due for a bit of work anyway?


Still, one doesn't expect to have to spend big $ what would you be looking at $ wise $10 - 15,000?

Last time I looked a short engine could be had for ~$8k

[PerthDisco]

When you pull out the old filter it does feel like you are going to break something.

So if the widget (I like that name) was accidentally pulled out and thrown out with the old oily filter, then someone not understanding how this is set up could refit a new filter with no bypass valve at all, meaning you would always get oil bypassing the filter.

Something else Ford forgot to warn it’s customers when it wrote up the technical manual. [emoji33][emoji33]

That’s exactly what just happened to me and totally plausible a shop could bin it with filter. All’s that would happen is the oil would be bypassing the filter constantly.

But obviously never happened previously because i personally check and getting the filter out is a fight I don’t enjoy.

I’m pretty sure Nissen is the OEM oil cooler supplier and supplies the whole assembly.

[DiscoDB]

Rova Range Automotive in Melbourne are now the importers for NWS Motor Services who supply reconditioned and remanufactured JLR engines.

And keep this a secret (hate for them to sell out) but Jefferson Ford also sell brand new 2.7 tdci motors for $11,400. They are worth more than a Ford Territory….. [emoji28]

As we all know, Inc bought his Territory just so he has a spare motor for when he gets a real 4WD SUV. [emoji41]

[4bee]

Last time I looked a short engine could be had for ~$8k



Plus Labour @ what, $80 -$100 p/hr?


Soon be up to my $15 grand guess. [bighmmm][bigsad]

[DiscoDB]

Slightly off topic. This is for sale on gumtree. Claims to be from a 2010 2.7 TDV6 that failed at 240,000kms.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/73f37fd77e7f4129ef9ca592d42fa7f8.jpg

[DiscoJeffster]

Slightly off topic. This is for sale on gumtree. Claims to be from a 2010 2.7 TDV6 that failed at 240,000kms.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/73f37fd77e7f4129ef9ca592d42fa7f8.jpg

$2?

[scarry]

Plus Labour @ what, $80 -$100 p/hr?

Most Indies charge 50% over that rate.

Plus covid tax[wink11]

Then there are dealers,but i wont go there[bighmmm]

[scarry]

$2?

Boat anchor?

[DiscoDB]

$2?

Well coincidently, that is about the price of the part that they claim actually failed.

[4bee]

Most Indies charge 50% over that rate.

Plus covid tax[wink11]

Then there are dealers,but i wont go there[bighmmm]

So, the skies the limit it would appear.

[Bulletman]

Slightly off topic. This is for sale on gumtree. Claims to be from a 2010 2.7 TDV6 that failed at 240,000kms.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/73f37fd77e7f4129ef9ca592d42fa7f8.jpg

So is that a 2010 tdv6 with a broken oil pump housing or mounting bolt . That would be the first I have heard of in that year.

Bulletman

[incisor]

As we all know, Inc bought his Territory just so he has a spare motor for when he gets a real 4WD SUV. [emoji41]

all donations gladly accepted [bigwhistle]

try buying a good low milage diesel terry with some goodies where everything works for under 20k in the current market, near me

i was chasing a poverty pack in the end and it still took months to find a decent one where everything worked and was in my price range

great car, would love the motor in my defender which, by the way, is easier on my spine on long journeys, but it is all about compromises because of my arthritis and the wife's aches and pains, sadly

[DiscoDB]

all donations gladly accepted [bigwhistle]

Well if you can find the proper Ford Engine Assembly manual for the TDV6 you can add it to the AULRO shop for sale.

LR Time keep showing the detail in it and it looks much better than the LR or Citroen workshop manual. Also more detailed than the SZ Territory workshop manual.

If it is on the interweb I can normally find it but so far had no luck tracking down the manual LR Time are using.

[PerthDisco]

Well if you can find the proper Ford Engine Assembly manual for the TDV6 you can add it to the AULRO shop for sale.

LR Time keep showing the detail in it and it looks much better than the LR or Citroen workshop manual. Also more detailed than the SZ Territory workshop manual.

If it is on the interweb I can normally find it but so far had no luck tracking down the manual LR Time are using.

Christian said he’s going to publish all the parts and tech info once he has it all worked out so stay tuned.

[incisor]

trying to find any official workshop manual for a post 2011 ford territory is like looking for hens teeth..

there are a couple out there but none are interested in sharing or selling...
fordforums.com.au has most of one online but they make some pages useless with their branding going through pics

[DiscoDB]

I found the SZ manual for the TDV6 quite good - mostly the same content as the D3 manual (for the common bits) but I prefer the layout Ford uses. I see the entire car is also lifted off the motor/gearbox (looks like you have to drop the motor/gearbox out from underneath to remove).

Citroen have the best torque settings diagrams for the 2.7. And there is a good collection of assembly data produced by a group called OE for the 3.0 which apparently the bottom end set up is identical.

For an amazing amount of detail overall - the 2018 F-150 workshop manual (available via cardiagn.com) is just a mere 20,000 pages of content……. but seems to have no additional info on the Powerstroke 3.0 beyond what we mostly already have in the D4 manual (again with respect to the common bits).

But the Ford Engine Assembly Procedures and Instructions that Christian is using looks to have all the missing bits needed to assemble the TDV6 fully from a bare block.

[DiscoDB]

So is that a 2010 tdv6 with a broken oil pump housing or mounting bolt . That would be the first I have heard of in that year.

Bulletman

Yes - was thinking the same. Can only imagine the timing belt had been replaced and the tensioner retaining bolt was either not replaced or was over tightened and yielded.

Wouldn’t be the first time, but surprising to see a D4 2.7TDV6 with this type of failure.

[incisor]

interesting snippet i just came across


The other thing, get rid of the damn cable tie behind oil filter housing

its roped through the 3 legged breather, has absolutely no function [had an assembly tag on,which gets pulled off and this tie stays]

any way it causes horror by having the thin tip jam in oil filter bowl, causing oil seep, one dealer had gone to the extent of replacing rear main to "fix" oil leak, which was NOT FIXED cos cable tie was still stuck in

Jaguar came out with a bulletin to cut cable tie off on first sight

I made it routine to cut off at PDi, but imagine thousands of cars running around with them. I have done bit of look around-this cable tie has been on EVERY Jag, LR, Pug and Cit V6 D.


i saw the tag.... must go have a bopeep and see if there is a cable tie there

[DiscoDB]

interesting snippet i just came across

i saw the tag.... must go have a bopeep and see if there is a cable tie there

Interesting point - you can see in this picture an assembly tag on mine which would be easy to get caught in the oil filter housing cap.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211203/23eb5627518c98da02664c021ddaa000.jpg

When I fit I climb on top to see what I am doing - rather than doing by feel. The cables also need to be pushed aside to get the housing cover to drop down into position.

P.s. and contamination control freaks (myself included) would hate to see the amount of dirt and grime around the housing (all waiting to be knocked into the open filter).

Edit - checked mine and can’t see any cable tie at rear. Plus picture above is a bit deceiving as assembly tag sits up higher.

[Discodicky]

I might change my oil cooler too after seeing all this...on the subject of replacement coolers, what's the consensus of using genuine vs. Nissens brand? I know genuine is usually better but at £300 vs £100 the Nissens is pretty tempting.

On another post a coupla months ago, GRAVY replaced his 3.0 litre cooler with a Nissen and said the quality was excellent.
Does anyone know if it is possible to buy a seal kit as such for a cooler?
All "O" rings and the middle seal?