Hypothetical conversation between Tesla and a facility manager

[BradC]

This may or may not have happened recently in Perth:

Tesla : Hello Mr facility manager. Nice shopping center you have here. We'd like to increase your footfall and green credentials by having 6 Tesla superchargers in your car park.
FM : I'm listening.
Tesla : We'll provide 6 superchargers, free of charge!
FM: Ok. So what do these "superchargers" entail.
Tesla: Well, they provide up to 250kw of charging to an EV per charger.
FM: Ok, so you want 1.5MW of capability from our switchboard?
Tesla: That's the idea.
FM: Ok, we can potentially work with that. Shall I have our electrical people work up a nominal design and quote for the infrastructure and required switchboard upgrades?
Tesla: Sure. No need to supply us with the quote though, that's your cost.
FM: ??
Tesla: We supply the chargers, you pay to install and run them.
FM: Excuse me?
Tesla: Think of the increased patronage and green credentials!
FM: So in the peak of summer, when we have 3 cars "supercharging" and it pushes us over our Western Power negotiated peak demand, who pays the extortionate penalties?
Tesla: You do. We'll supply you the chargers, you pay for all ongoings and outgoings. We will warrant them and repair them if they break inside the warranty period however.
FM: ?!?
FM: Well, the rest aside we can always use the BMS to limit the chargers to cap our peak demand.
Tesla: Oh no, part of the contract of supply is you'll make them available continuously. You can't put restrictions on their use.
FM: Thanks, don't call us, we'll call you.

Edit: You can't make this stuff up, although it's possible I might have. It is hypothetical after all.

[Homestar]

Yep, that’s exactly the conversations that will happen all around the country and what I said in the EV thread - where’s all the power coming from to run these things? At home is fine, getting the infrastructure into public areas is going to be very difficult beyond the odd one here and there.

[NavyDiver]

Payment is needed- Ampol is about to roll out and I guess when I need to use them I will pay ( it will be a lot less than filling up my D3) Have to add Shopping centres are happily adding FREE charging points rather quickly [biggrin][biggrin]

[B]Australian fuel giant confirms electric car charging network


Ampol will begin installing fast-charging bays across its national petrol station network.


https://www.drive.com.au/news/australian-fuel-giant-confirms-electric-car-charging-network/..

Look like Perth is well covered already? Electric Car Charging Stations Perth, WA | EV Charging Points (https://www.synergy.net.au/Our-energy/Blog/2018/09/The-best-spots-to-charge-your-electric-vehicle-in-Perth)
By the look of Plug share I could get my short range cheap EV to Perth[bigwhistle] It would be slow as the charge rates are slow plus at the moment. (My D3 was clearly quicker[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig])

Off for a shot at bunny and a fox or two a family farm near Ballarat as soon as this lock down here is over. I will take the EV and it will cost ZIP - usually cost me $150ish. Note the farm ute is a 4wd. no way my MG ev is a paddock capable bunny carrier[biggrin] Question will be do I need to charge at the currently still freebie CCS charger at 61 Curtis St, Ballarat Central VIC 3350, Australia? Hope to drive their and home to use my solar to recharge.

[scarry]

Yep, that’s exactly the conversations that will happen all around the country and what I said in the EV thread - where’s all the power coming from to run these things? At home is fine, getting the infrastructure into public areas is going to be very difficult beyond the odd one here and there.

Maybe not,those living in blocks of units will have isssues,unless the building owner upgrades the power supply,probably at huge cost.

Residential houses maybe fine,until EV's become mainstream and everybody decides to charge their EV's on mains power at the same time,although solar,with or without batteries may suit some.

Energex is going to be extremely busy supplying and installing transformers.

As for where the power comes from,that is a huge issue.

Renewables just wont solve the problem.

[PhilipA]

Off for a shot at bunny and a fox or two a family farm near Ballarat as soon as this lock down here is over. I will take the EV and it will cost ZIP - usually cost me $150ish

Er so you paid twice what an equivalent ICE car would cost new to save say $1000 per year in fuel, and lose say 200 hours waiting for charging.

Note you are the one talking about saving money on fuel.

I always find this a very amusing argument particularly from $150K Tesla owners.
Regards PhilipA

[AK83]

Er so you paid twice what an equivalent ICE car would cost new to save say $1000 per year in fuel, and lose say 200 hours waiting for charging.

Note you are the one talking about saving money on fuel.

I always find this a very amusing argument particularly from $150K Tesla owners.
Regards PhilipA

Yeah ... I'm always amused by this rationale too.

It used to cost my dad about $10(or less) to go to Ballarat and back in his little 307HDi .. and the car itself cost him less than $4K.
I did it once and it averaged 3.7lt/100 on the highway section(Melton-Ballarat-Melton).

I'd love to see how much actual range an EV would get to Ballarat(there are steep hills on the way up) as opposed to their claimed range.

In saying that tho, I have been considering a very small EV type vehicle as an option for just getting to work and back ... like a Leaf or something like that.
But those small modern diesels do make a hell of a lot more sense over the long run.

[NavyDiver]

Er so you paid twice what an equivalent ICE car would cost new to save say $1000 per year in fuel, and lose say 200 hours waiting for charging.

Note you are the one talking about saving money on fuel.

I always find this a very amusing argument particularly from $150K Tesla owners.
Regards PhilipA

150k[tonguewink] No thanks. It would need to be a FCEV before I'd consider that and only if hydrogen was available- Call me billy not silly

$1000 per year in fuel and how much more on servicing costs per year?? Factor in a timing belt, Front Control arms...... and the other bits I (we) have given to my D3(s or car of choice)

MG was sub 40k the ICE version is about 30K so yes the battery cost about 10k or $1000 per year ( assuming it last the 8 year warranty plus 2 years[biggrin]) No matter how I count it, I am saving much more then the cost the battery incurred. The time for a full charge is only a issue IF I tried a drive to WA. Fast chargers are very fast and getting faster. Not as fast as petrol, diesel or Hydrogen ( possibly ) the 240km range on my MG will not see me driving it to WA promise.

Noting my little 42kwh battery is sub an hour at the fast CCS types, under 4 hours from empty at home AC and overnight if I really had to use a wall plug. Did that just once. Not suggesting its perfect but arguments on the cost when a new Telsa mod 3 is about 70k are a bit stretched even for a Tesla I think
Not bagging people who can afford the fuel and maintenance on their choices. ICE will be with us for ten years or more. I would not be recommending Mechanic as a long term career choice. I think Ampols decision to add a revenue stream from EVs is smart. The free charge points can already be rather busy. The further from cities that will clearly be a bigger issue if events are on or during holiday periods. ( the multiple 3 phase charge points to Perth would allow a 12Kwh per hour charger to be used. ( Not doing that just it is possible and some have added that to enable them to drive around Australia in their EV.
The famous they say "Study Finds EV Cost Of Ownership Is 40% Lower Than ICE The study is called ‘Comprehensive Total Cost of Ownership Quantification for Vehicles with Different Size Classes and Powertrains.’ Study Finds EV Cost Of Ownership Is 40% Lower Than ICE (https://insideevs.com/news/527165/study-evs-ownership-40percent-lower/)"


EV's are not perfect clearly- Not suggesting that at all. What is clear is change is happening and required i.m.o..

[PhilipA]

the multiple 3 phase charge points to Perth would allow a 12Kwh per hour charger to be used. ( Not doing that just it is possible and some have added that to enable them to drive around Australia in their EV.
So what would the charge points be powered from across the Nullabor and elsewhere where there is no or inadequate power in the grid. Those generators at the roadhouses are pretty loud at night.
The answer "diesel"
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

So what would the charge points be powered from across the Nullabor and elsewhere where there is no or inadequate power in the grid. Those generators at the roadhouses are pretty loud at night.
The answer "diesel"
Regards PhilipA Or solar?
"Off-Grid Renewable Energy Power System





Mundrabilla Roadhouse Power





Tropical Energy Solutions designed and project managed the installation of a 96kW PV solar system with 183kWh of energy storage. The PV solar modules are installed on a purpouse built ground mount system utilizing available space next to the main facilities.







"
Things of Interest | Mundrabilla Roadhouse | Nullarbor (https://www.mundrabillaroadhouse.com.au/interests.html)
When working at Shark bay I did see a late delivery of fuel stop almost everything once. It is possible is my point. The 96kw pv would happily feed a very very fast charge time taking about a nice meal stop? [biggrin]

[PhilipA]

So it can store and produce 183Kw for one hour.

A Tesla model 3 is 82KWh, so it could possible charge 2 Teslas if the day has been sunny and there has been no other demands.

But wait there is extensive refrigeration, air conditioning, the fuel pumps etc etc.
So possible one Tesla.
You reckon they would welcome EVs then?
Just hope when you arrive the day is or has been sunny.

Or do I hear a diesel generator starting up"?

Regards PhilipA

[Tombie]

Sitting for “sub an hour” to charge a vehicle would cost me over $100 just for my time lost.

I cannot afford that, for $10 of power.

And there’s no savings to be had, the degradation is quite rapid, the depreciation on that MG horrendous.

Meanwhile a D3 is sitting registered and insured. Even with a set of suspension arms every 2 years you’re not saving cash.

Can you do a TCO on both?

[NavyDiver]

Sitting for “sub an hour” to charge a vehicle would cost me over $100 just for my time lost.

I cannot afford that, for $10 of power.

And there’s no savings to be had, the degradation is quite rapid, the depreciation on that MG horrendous.

Meanwhile a D3 is sitting registered and insured. Even with a set of suspension arms every 2 years you’re not saving cash.

Can you do a TCO on both?
Cheap mate- I invoice out at over $200 per hour if I charge people[thumbsupbig] Agree time is precious.

[Arapiles]

Er so you paid twice what an equivalent ICE car would cost new to save say $1000 per year in fuel, and lose say 200 hours waiting for charging.

Note you are the one talking about saving money on fuel.

I always find this a very amusing argument particularly from $150K Tesla owners.
Regards PhilipA


That's the same argument I used to hear about diesels or for that matter solar installations on houses. People said that you wouldn't amortise the price difference between a diesel and a petrol in fuel savings from the diesel - but they were missing the point that you don't need to amortise the difference because when you sell them the diesels are still worth proportionally more than the petrol. I'd expect that the same thing would occur with vehicles like the Kona that are available in petrol, hybrid and electric - the electric one won't drop to the depreciated price of the cheapest petrol model. In the interim you have the cost savings (which are pretty significant with an EV) and in the case of a diesel the better range and driveability compared to an equivalent petrol.

And re Teslas, this one depreciated less than the Toyota:

Tesla v Toyota: A tale of two resale values | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/tesla-v-toyota-a-tale-of-two-resale-values-model-3-performance-supra)

[johnp38]

Cheap mate- I invoice out at over $200 per hour if I charge people[thumbsupbig] Agree time is precious.

Wanna brag huh?

My time is worth so much no-one can afford me !

(hence I am pennyless)

[Homestar]

That's the same argument I used to hear about diesels or for that matter solar installations on houses. People said that you wouldn't amortise the price difference between a diesel and a petrol in fuel savings from the diesel - but they were missing the point that you don't need to amortise the difference because when you sell them the diesels are still worth proportionally more than the petrol. I'd expect that the same thing would occur with vehicles like the Kona that are available in petrol, hybrid and electric - the electric one won't drop to the depreciated price of the cheapest petrol model. In the interim you have the cost savings (which are pretty significant with an EV) and in the case of a diesel the better range and driveability compared to an equivalent petrol.

And re Teslas, this one depreciated less than the Toyota:

Tesla v Toyota: A tale of two resale values | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/tesla-v-toyota-a-tale-of-two-resale-values-model-3-performance-supra)

EV’s seem to be depreciating at a staggering rate - sure they’ll be examples of top spec $150K vehicles doing ok, but in the more realistic market where most manufacturers will aim their products, they aren’t holding any real value beyond a few years - no one want to touch one when the batteries start to get a bit long in the tooth - look what happened to the Prius - they aren’t worth a cracker and weren’t after only a few years and that still has an engine to use. I can see straight EV’s suffering even worse - while I balk now at a new one due to cost, I’d run screaming into the hills from a second hand one because of what the battery packs will cost to replace.

[NavyDiver]

Haven't sold one yet so couldn't comment[biggrin]


Edit
A 2013 leaf at 14K is the cheapest ev on car sales in Melbourne. That is crazy[tonguewink] carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/victoria-state/melbourne-region/electric-fueltype/'sort=%7ePrice)
Might just be those crazy Victorian prices???? None available in Brisbane? Zip in Sydney? Perth low price is a 2013 Leaf costing sorry asking "$16,999* (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2013-nissan-leaf-aze0-auto/OAG-AD-20169048/?Cr=0)"
https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/western-australia-state/perth-region/electric-fueltype/'sort=%7ePrice

G (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/western-australia-state/perth-region/electric-fueltype/'sort=%7ePrice)umtree prices OUCH ? carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/western-australia-state/perth-region/electric-fueltype/'sort=%7ePrice)
We may need to check the numbers again on resale?

We clearly need to reconsider running costs[bawl] I just ran past a place at over $2 per litre[tonguewink][tonguewink][tonguewink] When will fuel prices settle? Gas oil and.. up over 95% in less than 12 months! OUCH plus for many reasons.

[Arapiles]

EV’s seem to be depreciating at a staggering rate - sure they’ll be examples of top spec $150K vehicles doing ok, but in the more realistic market where most manufacturers will aim their products, they aren’t holding any real value beyond a few years - no one want to touch one when the batteries start to get a bit long in the tooth - look what happened to the Prius - they aren’t worth a cracker and weren’t after only a few years and that still has an engine to use. I can see straight EV’s suffering even worse - while I balk now at a new one due to cost, I’d run screaming into the hills from a second hand one because of what the battery packs will cost to replace.

Dunno about the Chinese EVs, but the people who wouldn't buy a Prius second hand because of the batteries were missing out - there's heaps that have been used as taxis and have over 500,000 kms so the reliability is actually there, and at least in the early days, Toyota was reputedly replacing for free any batteries that failed but I've not heard of that being done.

[PhilipA]

Prius's do not have Lithium Ion batteries.

In Australia they have always had Nicad.

I read a couple of years ago that even the new model which had Lion in say the USA have Nicad in Australia.
it looks like the Nicads have had great reliability.
Regards PhilipA

[BradC]

Prius's do not have Lithium Ion batteries.

In Australia they have always had Nicad.

I'm going to nitpick and say they have NiMH rather than NiCD. Same same but different, particularly when it comes to recycling.

Anyway, a Prius isn't an electric car unless you count a vehicle with ~20km battery range "an electric car". It's a hybrid. A very good hybrid, but it's pretty much impotent without petrol.

[Homestar]

Dunno about the Chinese EVs, but the people who wouldn't buy a Prius second hand because of the batteries were missing out - there's heaps that have been used as taxis and have over 500,000 kms so the reliability is actually there, and at least in the early days, Toyota was reputedly replacing for free any batteries that failed but I've not heard of that being done.

I’m not saying they were a bad car, far from it. Just noting how much more depreciation they suffered compared to ICE vehicles of the same era.

[Homestar]

Prius's do not have Lithium Ion batteries.

In Australia they have always had Nicad.

I read a couple of years ago that even the new model which had Lion in say the USA have Nicad in Australia.
it looks like the Nicads have had great reliability.
Regards PhilipA

Yes, but again, I wasn’t making a point about the tech but on how cheap they became second hand so quickly due to perceived issues around the cost of replacing the batteries.

[Homestar]

Haven't sold one yet so couldn't comment[biggrin]


Edit
A 2013 leaf at 14K is the cheapest ev on car sales in Melbourne. That is crazy[tonguewink] carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/victoria-state/melbourne-region/electric-fueltype/'sort=%7ePrice)
Might just be those crazy Victorian prices???? None available in Brisbane? Zip in Sydney? Perth low price is a 2013 Leaf costing sorry asking "$16,999* (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2013-nissan-leaf-aze0-auto/OAG-AD-20169048/?Cr=0)"
https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/western-australia-state/perth-region/electric-fueltype/'sort=%7ePrice

G (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/western-australia-state/perth-region/electric-fueltype/'sort=%7ePrice)umtree prices OUCH ? carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/western-australia-state/perth-region/electric-fueltype/'sort=%7ePrice)
We may need to check the numbers again on resale?

We clearly need to reconsider running costs[bawl] I just ran past a place at over $2 per litre[tonguewink][tonguewink][tonguewink] When will fuel prices settle? Gas oil and.. up over 95% in less than 12 months! OUCH plus for many reasons.

Yeah - a $55K vehicle being sold for $14K 8 years after it was bought - not pretty. Trade in price is around half that.

While I’m happy for anyone who has an EV and enjoys it, etc I just don’t see any math - no matter how hard you fudge it, that makes them economically viable.

Wonder if I can pick up an MY22 Defender in 8 years for $20 to $25K [emoji56] - even given Land Rovers do depreciate faster than most other Marques, there isn’t much chance of that.

[NavyDiver]

Yeah - a $55K vehicle being sold for $14K 8 years after it was bought - not pretty. Trade in price is around half that.

While I’m happy for anyone who has an EV and enjoys it, etc I just don’t see any math - no matter how hard you fudge it, that makes them economically viable.

Wonder if I can pick up an MY22 Defender in 8 years for $20 to $25K [emoji56] - even given Land Rovers do depreciate faster than most other Marques, there isn’t much chance of that.

Wife saw a Lexus ES at a auction where I brought a my first D3. She was furious. I had to stop her from buying it!!! [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]
It sold for $2k. We know it as a $80k car five years prior and exactly the same as hers[biggrin] Depreciation is not nice! Oddly I did sell that ES two years ago for $4000. Everyone in the family had used it an no one wanted it any more[biggrin] Not suggesting old cars are worth a lot or little. Nor do I get $200 per hour ever. I charged a dopey medical centre a bit more than that just once after they stuffed up after I had given them the correct advice they did not follow and demanded my help- I sent one of my staff to fix it for them by showing them how I do it 'again' and tossed the invoice at the silly sod assuming it would not be paid. It was which in some ways made me feel bad[bighmmm].

Just at Ritters picking up two bits for my D3. Ordered and paid several months ago and dopey me had not picked them up. They had painted them for me! Nice. Yet to pay for that bit and no storage charges imposed [thumbsupbig] A very sporty type jumped out of a new disco, She did have a D3 before the current model she made look very cool. Her comment re her Prior D3 was it used to much fuel. Perhaps around the city type but that's an assumption. She may be a super star long distance hard core 4wd type.

I want a FCEV conversion or Disco 3 equivalent replacement. My quirky little ev is not ever a Disco replacement.

Excuse me if I am making people grumpy. I do assume a lot of people will be a lot better off with a non Ice option very soon. Not insisting anyone takes that leap myself. [thumbsupbig]

"
At my funeral.. I want my best friend to take the bouquet off my casket..and throw it into the crowd..and yell who's next..
"

[AndyG]

Yeah - a $55K vehicle being sold for $14K 8 years after it was bought - not pretty. Trade in price is around half that.

While I’m happy for anyone who has an EV and enjoys it, etc I just don’t see any math - no matter how hard you fudge it, that makes them economically viable.

Wonder if I can pick up an MY22 Defender in 8 years for $20 to $25K [emoji56] - even given Land Rovers do depreciate faster than most other Marques, there isn’t much chance of that.

Well my 2014 Defender has gone from 60,000 to 95,000 according to Shannons,
Sadly sitting in the shed all alone

[Hoges]

There's a 'technical' term to describe the current attitude of many self-righteous EV owners (present company on this forum excepted![thumbsupbig]) and most in the 'renewables' industry who believe they are entitled to free everything or massive subsidies from the public purse...they are referred to as "Rent Seekers"...and rightly so..

I'm not "anti" the EV movement... indeed I am firmly of the view that a small, lightweight EV for suburban use would be ideal!

However, the lack of comprehension by the political elites of all persuasions, of the realities of power generation required for their grand vision is breathtaking... .:soapbox:

[oldyella 76]

Talking to a bloke who came from a regional city, who lived in a court. In that court there were 4 E.V. owners who were charging their vehicles at home. One hot night, there was that much load on the system that it it overloaded and the court lost power.

One of them went for a drive to the beach and the vehicle ran out of power on the way home and the vehicle had to be flat topped home, very concerning.

I am going to start a business with a ute and a genset, that can be an emergency battery charging unit and make it available to recharge E.V. vehicles that have run out of power on the side of a road during a trip. I will make the recharge cheaper than a flat top retrieval.
Maybe this is what the greenies say will be one of the emerging industries that come from our low carbon future. I might just be able to carry some hydrogen also to cater for heavy vehicles.
Lindsay.

[Hoges]

Talking to a bloke who came from a regional city, who lived in a court. In that court there were 4 E.V. owners who were charging their vehicles at home. One hot night, there was that much load on the system that it it overloaded and the court lost power.

One of them went for a drive to the beach and the vehicle ran out of power on the way home and the vehicle had to be flat topped home, very concerning.

I am going to start a business with a ute and a genset, that can be an emergency battery charging unit and make it available to recharge E.V. vehicles that have run out of power on the side of a road during a trip. I will make the recharge cheaper than a flat top retrieval.
Maybe this is what the greenies say will be one of the emerging industries that come from our low carbon future. I might just be able to carry some hydrogen also to cater for heavy vehicles.
Lindsay.

"Everybody" knows you recharge just enough to start then go for a drive to top up the battery[thumbsupbig] . a case of "old habits die hard"??[bigrolf]

[Phideaux]

Without looking at 'that car' - the sorts of things that would be killing the resale value would be the amount that the tech - and the Leaf itself - has moved on in eight years. I think the current Leaf would have almost double the range that an 8-year-old Leaf would (2013 upgrade was from 150km to 193km) - certainly there's a (horribly expensive) Leaf+ that would have that (official 385km range, real-world is actually more [410km]).

To confuse things slightly more, Nissan has been upgrading its batteries almost annually - there's a YouTube from an NZ specialist that shows the extent of the changes. (But mostly, newer batteries do fit in old chassis).

Truth of the matter is, most of us only do 30-60km in a day anyway.

One use for a car like that Leaf would be to buy it, reef out the motor/battery and pop into a classic car shell - like an Austin Mayfair or something suitably quaint - and upgrade the battery/motor of the old Leaf. Apparently electrifying classics is becoming a thing. Not cheap... someone in the US, mate of Jay Leno's, just stuck a Tesla S motor in a Mk 5 Jaguar (70 years old).

But 'early adopters' are going to face a cost. My son-in-law spent $22K on solar panels. I bought an equivalent system 7 years ago (now 90% price-recovered!) for $11K [including every last ditch, switch, permit, etc...], the same or better system now would cost $7K.



Yeah - a $55K vehicle being sold for $14K 8 years after it was bought - not pretty. Trade in price is around half that.

While I’m happy for anyone who has an EV and enjoys it, etc I just don’t see any math - no matter how hard you fudge it, that makes them economically viable.

Wonder if I can pick up an MY22 Defender in 8 years for $20 to $25K [emoji56] - even given Land Rovers do depreciate faster than most other Marques, there isn’t much chance of that.