Alternator Charge Voltage Not Enough for Calcium Battery

[lazbaz]

I have a 2000 Reg Range Rover 4.6 Petrol P38.
The battery spec is 112 AH; 12V and 870 CCA.
I have fitted Hankook MF31-1000A calcium battery and requires a charging voltage of 14.7 V. The Bosch alternator charging voltage is about 14V. I need a 14.7 V alternator regulator for the Bosch ERR 5834 alternator. Any advice how I can achieve this would be thankfully received.

[drivesafe]

Hi Lazbaz and welcome to AULRO.

Your battery can be fully charged with as little as 13.8v in a reasonable time.

But can be REGULARLY charge with up to 14.7v, and the higher the voltage the faster the charge.

Thats all the 14.7v charging means.

So no need for a new alternator, your will be fine.

[lazbaz]

Hi Lazbaz and welcome to AULRO.

Your battery can be fully charged with as little as 13.8v in a reasonable time.

But can be REGULARLY charge with up to 14.7v, and the higher the voltage the faster the charge.

Thats all the 14.7v charging means.

So no need for a new alternator, your will be fine.

Thank you for your assurance. However this is what I read "The typical lead acid charging voltage is between 2.15 volts per cell (12.9 volts for a 6 cell battery) and 2.35 volts per cell (14.1 volts for a 6 cell battery). The ideal charging voltage for a calcium battery is 14.8V for the recombination process to properly occur"

So I am still unsure the battery will damage quite rapidly. I was thinking of getting the alternator voltage modified to 14.7 or 14.8 V. But I have not found anyone who can do it for me.

[trout1105]

Personally I would be changing my battery choice instead of boosting the voltage to suit the battery type.
I am no auto sparky But it doesn't sound like a good idea to put that much extra voltage/ampage through an older vehicles aged wiring just to suit a different type of battery.

[scarry]

Many with later model Tojo’s boost the voltage using a diode,it’s very easy to do,with no issues,as the LC’s alternator generally runs lower charging voltage.They have a temperature compensation alternater,not a smart alternator.

As others have said,I would just leave it.

[BradC]

I need a 14.7 V alternator regulator for the Bosch ERR 5834 alternator. Any advice how I can achieve this would be thankfully received.

There are a number of aftermarket external adjustable regulators for Bosch alternators. The car stereo guys use them to increase the output voltage.

I'm with Tim though in that you really don't need it.

Here's your reg : Regulator- adjustable. BOSCH sytems. – Motociclo (https://motociclo.com.au/product/regulator-adjustable-bosch-sytems/)
You just need to either remove your reg and wire this to the existing brush pack, or replace the brush pack with a compatible set. Something like : Dave's Volvo Page - Volvo Adjustable Voltage Regulators (https://www.prancingmoose.com/AdjustableVoltage.html)

[101RRS]

Thank you for your assurance. However this is what I read "The typical lead acid charging voltage is between 2.15 volts per cell (12.9 volts for a 6 cell battery) and 2.35 volts per cell (14.1 volts for a 6 cell battery). The ideal charging voltage for a calcium battery is 14.8V for the recombination process to properly occur"

So I am still unsure the battery will damage quite rapidly. I was thinking of getting the alternator voltage modified to 14.7 or 14.8 V. But I have not found anyone who can do it for me.

The standard battery for a D3/RRS is a calcium battery and I have never seen a charging rate as high as 14.7 or 14.8 in my RRS. On start it may show 14.2-14.4v until the start charge is recouped and it then drops to 13.2-13.5v and I have not had any issues with my calcium batteries over the years.

I think you are looking for an issue that is not there.

[lazbaz]

The standard battery for a D3/RRS is a calcium battery and I have never seen a charging rate as high as 14.7 or 14.8 in my RRS. On start it may show 14.2-14.4v until the start charge is recouped and it then drops to 13.2-13.5v and I have not had any issues with my calcium batteries over the years.

I think you are looking for an issue that is not there.

Hi,
What battery do you have-full name? Mine is Hankook MF31-1000A.
How long have you had the battery for?
I am listening to what the forum members are saying and keeping an open mind.

[lazbaz]

Personally I would be changing my battery choice instead of boosting the voltage to suit the battery type.
I am no auto sparky But it doesn't sound like a good idea to put that much extra voltage/ampage through an older vehicles aged wiring just to suit a different type of battery.
Probably I will change battery but I have just bought this one.

[drivesafe]

Hi again LazBaz and you do not need to change the battery.

Your battery does not need to be charged at 14.7v every time you use it.

All Calcium/Calcium ( Ca/Ca ) batteries are the same and only need a charge of 14.7v ( or higher ) once every few months.

[101RRS]

Hi,
What battery do you have-full name? Mine is Hankook MF31-1000A.
How long have you had the battery for?
I am listening to what the forum members are saying and keeping an open mind.

The original battery in the LR was a Varta calcium battery - lasted 9 years.

[Vern]

Hi again LazBaz and you do not need to change the battery.

Your battery does not need to be charged at 14.7v every time you use it.

All Calcium/Calcium ( Ca/Ca ) batteries are the same and only need a charge of 14.7v ( or higher ) once every few months.I recall a good friend of mine had calcium batteries in his 3.0L patrol as his dual battery system, his fridge only ever lasted a few hours when camping, had us stuffed as to why, the system was all brand new.
Turned out his patrol couldn't get the charge voltage up high enough to rejuvenate the batteries once drained. Swapped them out for agm's and never had the issue again.

[lazbaz]

The original battery in the LR was a Varta calcium battery - lasted 9 years.

So your car alternator charge voltage ( I believe 14.2V or reminder me the figure) was enough and the battery lasted 9 years.
Please confirm your alternator charge voltage.
Thank you.

[101RRS]

So your car alternator charge voltage ( I believe 14.2V or reminder me the figure) was enough and the battery lasted 9 years.
Please confirm your alternator charge voltage.
Thank you.

Yes as I outlined above - was on the alternator as fitted by Landrover and the battery as fitted by Land Rover when the car was built. As were all D3s/RRS of the period - maybe LR know something about what alternators they use and what battery type to fit.


The standard battery for a D3/RRS is a calcium battery and I have never seen a charging rate as high as 14.7 or 14.8 in my RRS. On start it may show 14.2-14.4v until the start charge is recouped and it then drops to 13.2-13.5v and I have not had any issues with my calcium batteries over the years.

I think you are looking for an issue that is not there.

[scarry]

Our D4,being the model with no BCM,almost never went above 13.9V.

The original calcium was replaced by LR under warranty with an AGM,and they generally lasted about 4 years.As did the auxillary,which was AGM as well.

The D4 3.0L had the variable voltage set up and was supplied with an AGM start battery from factory.
They generally charged a higher voltage most of the time.

[AK83]

Thank you for your assurance. However this is what I read "The typical lead acid charging voltage is between 2.15 volts per cell (12.9 volts for a 6 cell battery) and 2.35 volts per cell (14.1 volts for a 6 cell battery). The ideal charging voltage for a calcium battery is 14.8V for the recombination process to properly occur"

So I am still unsure the battery will damage quite rapidly. I was thinking of getting the alternator voltage modified to 14.7 or 14.8 V. But I have not found anyone who can do it for me.

I did a google search for that particular quoted sentence, and found an exact copy of it from this website:

LARGE website

If this is where you found this info, did you continue on to read the article past the calcium section battery info section and into the Calcium vs AGM section?
If this isn't where you got your info, and possibly the info you found was a direct copy of the info in the Large website, do take the time to read the info in the AGM vs Calcium section.

Of particular note is where they state the charge requirements for both AGM and Calcium type batteries.

AGM needing 14.7v and Calcium needing 14.4v!!!
Initial thinking would be that maybe it's a typo, but continue reading and they continue to say that if you charge a Calcium battery using an AGM mode charger(ie. at 14.7v) the calcium battery will boil it's electrolyte as that level of charge will increase the Ca battery temperature.

So if the Calcium battery charging at 14.7v may overheat and possibly boil it's electrolyte, then how on earth can they justify suggesting a charge voltage of 14.8v!!!

So then the question comes into mind .. is the original suggestion of 14.8v a typo instead?

Either way .. considering the conflicting info .. me thinks, maybe best to avoid any technical info or suggestions from them.

On a personal note: I had a Delkor Calcium battery in my old 79 RRC for many years .. maybe 10+ or more. Was a good battery as I remember. I did also install an Aux battery a few years later into the spare battery slot and built a kit battery switching device to charge it.
IIRC the puny old Lucas alternator it originally had wasn't capable of more than about 14v, and once settled the charge out of it was in the mid to high 13's .. and yet still that Delkor lasted 10+ years.
Old Lucas alternators fail every year, just a day or two after the warranty period expires!(well mine did). I had it rebuilt so many times .. got sick of it at about the third rebuild, and found a nicer 80A Bosch unit that fit in the same space.
Again, made no difference to the operation of the Delkor. It did finally die tho, and this was due to the RRC sitting for a good couple of years unloved in any way.

I think batteries die, no matter how well you look after them. Just plain old dumb luck in having received a dud off the production line.
In my D1, I got a largest capacity Century that I could fit in there, off a retail shelf as it was needed there and then.
It died(dropped cell) in about 10 months. Eventually replaced by the retailer, and the replacement also started to feel like it was losing cranking capacity(for the Tdi).
But it's still working, need to keep it topped up a bit as the car isn't driven as much now.
Both batteries performed exactly the same way. First 6 months they would easily hold full charge overnight without problem ambient didn't matter either. That is, 12.7 volts.
D1's alternator charges them initially at about 14.3-14.4v then slowly decreases voltage as the battery gets topped up.
This is with no drain(ie. electrical draw) on them. Add electrical draw(wipers, AC/Fan, lights/highbeam/driving lights .. etc) charge voltage will be lower.
Once the battery has received back it's 'full charge'(I assume) eg. with no electrical draw, I then see between 13.8 and 14.0 volts.
I have two volt meters connected pretty much all the time. With a load, or many loads, on in the car(as before say wipers, brake lights, headlights... etc, the normal 'settled' charging level can be as low as 13.5v.

[drivesafe]

Hi again folks, Ca/Ca cranking batteries only need to supply enough battery capacity to start your motor and this they will do for many years, with out too much additional maintenance.

Problem is that they can easily start a motor when they are down as much as 50% of their original capacity.

Great for starting a motor, not much chop for running a fridge.

With Ca/Ca batteries ( and to a lesser extent, the same applies to ordinary wet/flooded batteries ), you need to periodically give them a high voltage charge to be able to maintain high capacity.

The D3s actually did this automatically, but as most D4s were supplied with AGMs, D4 voltages should NOT go over 14.7v while D3 voltages will go as high as 15.5v, particularly in cold climate countries.

So as I posted earlier in this thread, all Ca/Ca batteries should be given a high voltage recharge every few months.

[AK83]

So as I posted earlier in this thread, all Ca/Ca batteries should be given a high voltage recharge every few months.

What about in warm climates?
Roughly how long would you suggest to do this?

I have a couple of large truck batteries in my shed. I haven't had a chance to use them much but do regularly charge them with the NOCO.
I found that setting the charger to AGM every so often(only in very cold temps) helps them hold their normal charge longer too.
I've had them for about 3 years now, and they hold their charge well and still have over 90% of their capacity according to the battery tester.

Strange thing is, that they were removed out of brother truck 3+ years back when they had zero ability to start the truck(ie. couldn't crank it).

I don't know about other chargers, but on the NOCO, 15.5v equates to the AGM+ mode on the unit. How long would you advise to leave it set to this mode for?
Also, would the repair mode at 16.5v be too much for them?

I don't have any Ca batteries at the moment, but would be good to have some detailed info for future reference.

[drivesafe]

Hi Arthur and which model charger do you have?

[lazbaz]

I did a google search for that particular quoted sentence, and found an exact copy of it from this website:

LARGE website

If this is where you found this info, did you continue on to read the article past the calcium section battery info section and into the Calcium vs AGM section?
If this isn't where you got your info, and possibly the info you found was a direct copy of the info in the Large website, do take the time to read the info in the AGM vs Calcium section.

Of particular note is where they state the charge requirements for both AGM and Calcium type batteries.

AGM needing 14.7v and Calcium needing 14.4v!!!
Initial thinking would be that maybe it's a typo, but continue reading and they continue to say that if you charge a Calcium battery using an AGM mode charger(ie. at 14.7v) the calcium battery will boil it's electrolyte as that level of charge will increase the Ca battery temperature.

So if the Calcium battery charging at 14.7v may overheat and possibly boil it's electrolyte, then how on earth can they justify suggesting a charge voltage of 14.8v!!!

So then the question comes into mind .. is the original suggestion of 14.8v a typo instead?

Either way .. considering the conflicting info .. me thinks, maybe best to avoid any technical info or suggestions from them.

On a personal note: I had a Delkor Calcium battery in my old 79 RRC for many years .. maybe 10+ or more. Was a good battery as I remember. I did also install an Aux battery a few years later into the spare battery slot and built a kit battery switching device to charge it.
IIRC the puny old Lucas alternator it originally had wasn't capable of more than about 14v, and once settled the charge out of it was in the mid to high 13's .. and yet still that Delkor lasted 10+ years.
Old Lucas alternators fail every year, just a day or two after the warranty period expires!(well mine did). I had it rebuilt so many times .. got sick of it at about the third rebuild, and found a nicer 80A Bosch unit that fit in the same space.
Again, made no difference to the operation of the Delkor. It did finally die tho, and this was due to the RRC sitting for a good couple of years unloved in any way.

I think batteries die, no matter how well you look after them. Just plain old dumb luck in having received a dud off the production line.
In my D1, I got a largest capacity Century that I could fit in there, off a retail shelf as it was needed there and then.
It died(dropped cell) in about 10 months. Eventually replaced by the retailer, and the replacement also started to feel like it was losing cranking capacity(for the Tdi).
But it's still working, need to keep it topped up a bit as the car isn't driven as much now.
Both batteries performed exactly the same way. First 6 months they would easily hold full charge overnight without problem ambient didn't matter either. That is, 12.7 volts.
D1's alternator charges them initially at about 14.3-14.4v then slowly decreases voltage as the battery gets topped up.
This is with no drain(ie. electrical draw) on them. Add electrical draw(wipers, AC/Fan, lights/highbeam/driving lights .. etc) charge voltage will be lower.
Once the battery has received back it's 'full charge'(I assume) eg. with no electrical draw, I then see between 13.8 and 14.0 volts.
I have two volt meters connected pretty much all the time. With a load, or many loads, on in the car(as before say wipers, brake lights, headlights... etc, the normal 'settled' charging level can be as low as 13.5v.


Arthur,
Could you send me the url link for this. Thanks

[AK83]

Hi Arthur and which model charger do you have?

I have two(NOCOs) G7200 and G15000. I primarily use the G15000(15A @ 12v).
Both have the same settings, obviously one at 15A and the other at 7A.

The reason I got the NOCOs is that they also do 24v(at half the amps), and my dads mobility scooter is 24v, and has the XLR plug for him to use easily.

For your quick reference, the repair mode, which I assume is the same as desulphation mode in other chargers.... is rated at 1.5A @ 16.5v.
The AGM+ mode at 15.5v is still rated at 15A.
The 7A model has the same voltages, just at 7.2A instead of 15A


Arthur,
Could you send me the url link for this. Thanks

Sorry lazbaz, I thought I linked the -> LARGE website (https://www.large.net/news/8yu43pb.html) <- term in my reply, but did it wrongly! So click the link I created in this reply to take you directly to the article I referred too.

[drivesafe]

Thanks Arthur, the 16.5v is perfect for the wet/flooded and Ca/Ca batteries.

Before you use the AGM+ setting on an AGM, check the manufacturer's website for specific info on a specific AGM battery's maximum voltage.

Some AGMs will tolerate that sort of voltage but MOST WILL NOT.

BTW, when using the 16.5v setting, you should hear and feel the battery boiling.

[AK83]

Thanks Arthur, the 16.5v is perfect for the wet/flooded and Ca/Ca batteries.

Before you use the AGM+ setting on an AGM, check the manufacturer's website for specific info on a specific AGM battery's maximum voltage.

Some AGMs will tolerate that sort of voltage but MOST WILL NOT.

BTW, when using the 16.5v setting, you should hear and feel the battery boiling.

Awesome, info thanks.

I've been thinking to try using AGM+ on the red top in my D2.
For a couple of years now, it's been losing charge rather quickly than it used too.
Setup is redtop as main, and yellow as aux, via a Redarc VSR.
When first hooked up, it used to hold a very high charge, seen by the VSR well into the night and next day .. at a guess, close to two years like that.
Brother parked it up for a good few months, not using D2 and (only) redtop lost charge and must have dropped down to a low level.
Since then, the redtop doesn't hold charge well. After a good long drive where it gets plenty of recharge, the VSR cuts out in only a few seconds now. ie. it won't hold it's normal 12.7v like it used too.

If not trickle charged or used regularly it will lose all it's charge in about 3 days. Overnight it now drops down to 12v .. and confirmed a few times there is not heavy load on it(just a single USB/volt meter, which draws maybe 0.01A or something).
My problem is, that it starts the Td5 with no issue at all, for a battery that is supposedly down to 50% SOH according to the battery analyser .. but it cranks the Td5 like there is nothing wrong!

Totally opposite to my Century in my Tdi .. supposedly 98% SOH, but struggles to crank the tdi in the morning(OK once warmed tho).

According to Optima, the redtop can tolerate 15.6v 'rapid charge'. If I tried AGM+ mode whilst I can keep an eye on it, do you reckon it may help in any way? I can keep an eye on battery temp and stuff like that.

[drivesafe]

Hi again Arthur and both the Red and Yellowtop should be fine using the AGM+ but if your charge does not have an automatic timeout, you will need to remove the charger if the battery starts to warm up.

[BradC]

My problem is, that it starts the Td5 with no issue at all, for a battery that is supposedly down to 50% SOH according to the battery analyser .. but it cranks the Td5 like there is nothing wrong!

My last battery replacement was a Supercharge MF88. ~900CCA and ~100AH. It tested fine using a Century battery analyser (> 700CCA) and fine on a carbon pile. Started the car like it did when new. I put it on a discharge test and got a whisker over 20AH. So it still had plenty of grunt, just no endurance.

I've never found a battery analyser that does a credible capacity test, they all seem to assume "lots of amps, must be ok".

The trigger for that was the lad constantly opening the car to "take it for a drive" while we were camping. 2 days of that resulted in a "fail to proceed". A discharge test quickly identified the reason.

[drivesafe]

I've never found a battery analyser that does a credible capacity test.
And neither have I.

[lazbaz]

I have two(NOCOs) G7200 and G15000. I primarily use the G15000(15A @ 12v).
Both have the same settings, obviously one at 15A and the other at 7A.

The reason I got the NOCOs is that they also do 24v(at half the amps), and my dads mobility scooter is 24v, and has the XLR plug for him to use easily.

For your quick reference, the repair mode, which I assume is the same as desulphation mode in other chargers.... is rated at 1.5A @ 16.5v.
The 7A model has the same voltages, just at 7.2A instead of 15A

Sorry lazbaz, I thought I linked the -> LARGE website (https://www.large.net/news/8yu43pb.html) <- term in my reply, but did it wrongly! So click the link I created in this reply to take you directly to the article I referred too.

A83,
Are the NOCO chargers suitable to charge Calcium batteries?

[AK83]

Whilst the tester may not be 'accurate' ... it hasn't yet lied about the condition of some of the batteries I have lying around my shed.


A83,
Are the NOCO chargers suitable to charge Calcium batteries?

Going by what drivesafe says about the occasional(monthly or so) charge capability of Ca batteries ... I'd say for sure.

But going by what the NOCO's manual says, they reckon just use normal mode(14.5v) for Ca batteries anyhow.
The unit has a 12v(cold)/AGM mode rated for 14.8v if required.

BUT! .. going by all the advise given so far in this thread, I'd say don't fuss too much about having a Ca battery, just treat it as a normal 12v battery.

Also: I can highly recommend the NOCO chargers. They do what they say they're going to do .. and a reminder that primary reason I got my first one(G7200 model) was that it had the ability to charge 24v too, and had the easy to use(for an older person) plug type for a mobility scooter.
Gave it to my father to use it as his primary charger(plus I got him a pair of AGM batteries for it too) .. and I then got a G15000 model NOCO, as it had the quick charge boost mode, handy every now and then, although I have more than enough batteries lying around that I can jump start a dead battery easily enough.

[lazbaz]

Whilst the tester may not be 'accurate' ... it hasn't yet lied about the condition of some of the batteries I have lying around my shed.



Going by what drivesafe says about the occasional(monthly or so) charge capability of Ca batteries ... I'd say for sure.

But going by what the NOCO's manual says, they reckon just use normal mode(14.5v) for Ca batteries anyhow.
The unit has a 12v(cold)/AGM mode rated for 14.8v if required.

BUT! .. going by all the advise given so far in this thread, I'd say don't fuss too much about having a Ca battery, just treat it as a normal 12v battery.

Also: I can highly recommend the NOCO chargers. They do what they say they're going to do .. and a reminder that primary reason I got my first one(G7200 model) was that it had the ability to charge 24v too, and had the easy to use(for an older person) plug type for a mobility scooter.
Gave it to my father to use it as his primary charger(plus I got him a pair of AGM batteries for it too) .. and I then got a G15000 model NOCO, as it had the quick charge boost mode, handy every now and then, although I have more than enough batteries lying around that I can jump start a dead battery easily enough.
AK83, Arthur,
I bought the NOCO GB40 BOOST PLUS so that I could jump start when I needed to.
Now that I am unsure about my alternator being suitable to charge the battery, I am thinking of G15000 which I could use to charge the battery and keep it in good condition.
So please give me straight answer to my question:
1. Can I plug the charger to the battery terminals while it is still on the car? Do I have to remove the negative connection from the battery to do the charging?
Your answers will be most appreciated.

[AK83]

Quick update on the Optima red top.

As stated before, this battery isn't holding charge well. A few years ago D2 was left sitting for a long time and obviously battery self discharged and has since not really recovered well.
Would go flat(in a TD5) in about 3 or 4 days.. down to about 11.9v and zero ability to crank the TD5.
Sometimes hitting the override/jump start switch I installed for the Redarc VSR would give it just enough help to start, but most times I'd have to pull out the truck battery to manually jump start it.

IIRC the battery tester tool reckoned that the red top was at about 50% SOH/SOC, and CCA rating was down from 800 down to about 600-ish .. but even after a couple of days sitting, cranking was very fast and starting was immediate.
So the red top still had cranking power .. just no endurance.
I use the D2 to commute to work .. easily 30 mins x2, sometimes with traffic the return home could be 1hr .. so I'm not doing any short drives. Red Tops voltage first thing in the morning was very low 12's ... 12.1 usually, a few times 12.2v sitting overnight.

So I used the AGM+(according to NOCO, 15.5v) setting on it on Wed night, left it all day Thu. Got home Thu after work. Battery wasn't hot at all, maybe a few degrees above ambient. Didn't measure it with thermometer, just a hand test. I'd reckon about 20°C at most .. cold day cold battery case too.

Disconnected the NOCO and left battery to settle for an hour or so, maybe two .. dropped down to about 12.5v. Did a test with the battery tool, now comes up at 90% SOH/SOC and CCA rating is just above it's rated 800, at 805. Noting that this was about an hour or two after it's day worth of AGM+ charge.
Now about 12 hrs after the supercharged charge, it's still sitting at 12.4v(actual is 12.42v). Tester reckons that SOH is 93% SOC is 88%(ie. same 90% figures as before).

So like drivesafe says .. occasional zapping with the high voltage modes on the charger seems to help.

While it's going to be cold outside for a few days, I'll give it another zapping again to see if will recover a bit more.

Side note: the yellow top seems to be totally fine. It dropped a bit(didn't test it tho) .. and I gave it a small charge during the week the D2 has been sitting. Probably didn't need it, but why not. Through all of this it's basically held 12.7v with no trouble.