Oil Pressure light on instrument cluster

[Azza_LR3]

Hi all,
Can anyone shed so info for me. I was on an interstate trip recently, and after driving about 200kms, the engine oil light came up on the dash, car momentarily lost power, so i backed off throttle, and pulled over immediately.
Car stalled when i pulled to kerb. I popped bonnet, and checked oil, it was low, but i had oil (disappointing after a recent post trip service). Anyway.
So i started the car again and it was running rough. So i shut it off again, and got towed home.

Other information: I have a scan gauge fitted to vehicle, both engine (90deg cel) and trans (70deg cel), were within normal temps ranges, and no other alerts came up.

Does anyone have any ideas what happened? Im suspecting oil pump failure for some reason, can has 245ks on it, and trans was fully rebuild 60ks ago.

Any suggestions, or has anyone encountered this before?

[Geedublya]

Hi all,
Can anyone shed so info for me. I was on an interstate trip recently, and after driving about 200kms, the engine oil light came up on the dash, car momentarily lost power, so i backed off throttle, and pulled over immediately.
Car stalled when i pulled to kerb. I popped bonnet, and checked oil, it was low, but i had oil (disappointing after a recent post trip service). Anyway.
So i started the car again and it was running rough. So i shut it off again, and got towed home.

Other information: I have a scan gauge fitted to vehicle, both engine (90deg cel) and trans (70deg cel), were within normal temps ranges, and no other alerts came up.

Does anyone have any ideas what happened? Im suspecting oil pump failure for some reason, can has 245ks on it, and trans was fully rebuild 60ks ago.

Any suggestions, or has anyone encountered this before?

Sounds a lot like a major failure, probably a crank bearing, possibly oil pump but more likely a bearing.

[Azza_LR3]

Thanks, so ive done some investigation and checked out a few things,
The oil was free of debris, after i filtered it, However, oil filter has moderate amounts of brass dust on bottom of this.... Telling me its chewed out a big end bearing or 2.
So i shoved my borescope up the sump hole and took a peek inside. Basically, its appears i have chewed out the mains bearings for CYL 1 & 2, As they were starved of enough / any oil,

So its undoubtably caused by the infamous 2.7 diesel oil pump failure. Which as ive been made aware was a huge issue years ago, somehow mine was not replaced under recall in 2011/12, thanks to previous owners......

So now i must remove and repair the engine....... Which is quite a timely and costly job (as body needs removal off chassis).

Anyway I will keep you all posted, as i progress to getting my beast back on the road.

[DiscoDB]

Gee the bad luck stories continue.

Sorry to hear this.

Sounds like you have joined the infamous spun bearing club. But losing oil pressure before the failure is different so does point to either lack of oil or an oil pump failure as you suspect.

Not aware of any oil pump recall, but the must do recommendation is to replace the oil pump with timing belts and make sure you have the latest upgraded pump which is reinforced and has a larger impeller.

Can I ask what oil spec you were running since you owned it?

Plus any issues with starting the car in recent times?

[Eric SDV6SE]

... checked oil, it was low, but i had oil (disappointing after a recent post trip service)...

What was done at that post trip service? Was engine refilled to the correct level? As others have asked, what oil spec was used?

[Azza_LR3]

Yes, a pre trip checkover was completed. A few weeks earlier, transmission oil changed, diff oil changes x 2, Engine was looked over, but they somehow missed engine oil. AS after it stopped , i noticed oil was low, but it was there.

After some detailed inspection, and checks, i have found the issue. Oil Pump has failed for some reason, And starved the big end bearings of CYL 1, 2, which have chewed them out. Gold dust was found on base of oil filter, oil was generally clear of material, just some fibrous material in strainer. Oil was a little dark.
So i will be removing the engine in the upcoming weeks, and rebuilding the engine, as i believe its the only way forward. or to retire the car..

Cheers
Azza

[DiscoDB]

Will be interesting to see what you confirm when you strip it down. Also could have spun a main bearing which then starves the cylinder big end bearings of oil.

What spec oil were you using?

[BradC]

Will be interesting to see what you confirm when you strip it down. Also could have spun a main bearing which then starves the cylinder big end bearings of oil.

That wouldn't result in an oil pressure light though.

[DiscoDB]

That wouldn't result in an oil pressure light though.

Agreed - could be one of the first oil pump failures seen (excluding the early model housing failures after a timing belt change).

If so - supports changing pump every timing belt change even if you have the updated pump.

The other variable is the low oil level and if it starved of oil whilst under load - depends on how low it was.

Strip down should confirm. Not good either way for the OP.

[101RRS]

So its undoubtably caused by the infamous 2.7 diesel oil pump failure. Which as ive been made aware was a huge issue years ago, somehow mine was not replaced under recall in 2011/12, thanks to previous owners......


What is this infamous diesel oil pump failure - know of the tensioner housing failure causing valves to crash into pistons but I dont believe the oil pump itself has a history of failure.

Also what was this oil pump recall of 2011/12 - never heard of it. Are you getting confused with the injection pump recall. If there was an oil pump recall my car has not had it and according to topix all my recalls are up to date.

As others have said, sounds like a possible spun bearing.

[loanrangie]

Yep never was an oil pump recall otherwise there would be no tensioner failures, as Gary said there was a high pressure fuel pump recall which I have the sticker on the door jamb for.

[Azza_LR3]

What is this infamous diesel oil pump failure - know of the tensioner housing failure causing valves to crash into pistons but I dont believe the oil pump itself has a history of failure.

Also what was this oil pump recall of 2011/12 - never heard of it. Are you getting confused with the injection pump recall. If there was an oil pump recall my car has not had it and according to topix all my recalls are up to date.

As others have said, sounds like a possible spun bearing.

Im just going off the information i was told by a so called LR specialist. I am focussing on replacing the engine, with a fresh on, swapping out any parts with know issues, with better quality ones.

And yes, if you review my posts latest reply, i believe it was old pump failure, the oil filter is peppered with “gold dust” and upon internal inspection with borescope, it appeared CYL 1 , 2 and signs bearings chewed.

[Azza_LR3]

Gee the bad luck stories continue.

Sorry to hear this.

Sounds like you have joined the infamous spun bearing club. But losing oil pressure before the failure is different so does point to either lack of oil or an oil pump failure as you suspect.

Not aware of any oil pump recall, but the must do recommendation is to replace the oil pump with timing belts and make sure you have the latest upgraded pump which is reinforced and has a larger impeller.

Can I ask what oil spec you were running since you owned it?

Plus any issues with starting the car in recent times?

Hi I use Castrol Magnetic Diesel DX5W-40, And have used Penrite HPR Diesel 10W-40, Manufacturer specs is 10W-40 from memory, so i can’t see this being an issue, however im open to info to prevent this in future.

[DiscoDB]

Hi I use Castrol Magnetic Diesel DX5W-40, And have used Penrite HPR Diesel 10W-40, Manufacturer specs is 10W-40 from memory, so i can’t see this being an issue, however im open to info to prevent this in future.

Actual spec is 5W-30 but there is an argument for 5W-40 in warmer climates - especially if oil temps can see 110-120degC. This gets discussed a lot in other threads with no definitive answer.

10W-40 would be too thick when cold - and this could increase the risk of rotating a main bearing during cold starts. So I presume you meant Penrite 5W-40.

[101RRS]

I am focussing on replacing the engine, with a fresh on, swapping out any parts with know issues, with better quality ones.

I am not sure where you are going to get these - eg crankshaft as the "popular" opinion is aftermarket parts are suspect and have major failures soon after rebuild - hence the knowledgeable LR mechanics will not rebuild but replace - not prepared to take the warranty risk.

I would be looking for a Territory engine or if you can find one a new long motor.

Garry

[101RRS]

Manufacturer specs is 10W-40 from memory, so i can’t see this being an issue, however im open to info to prevent this in future.

No that is not correct - 5W/30 oil to specification WSS-M2C-913B meeting ACEA B1/B3 is the correct oil - could be part of your issue.

[Azza_LR3]

I am not sure where you are going to get these - eg crankshaft as the "popular" opinion is aftermarket parts are suspect and have major failures soon after rebuild - hence the knowledgeable LR mechanics will not rebuild but replace - not prepared to take the warranty risk.

I would be looking for a Territory engine or if you can find one a new long motor.

Garry

Hi Garry,
Ive been building engines for my various cars some 20yrs now. I have a few connections.
* I can already find a 3.0L “stroker kit” from Ford SVO Motorsport in USA, that suits the V6 Lion engine. US call it a power stroke. Kit contains rods and stroker crank, then i get my local machinist to machine block and sleeves to suit. However this can easily become expensive. $4k machining, $6100K AUD (incl shipping) for stroker kit.. And a late F150 Oil pump $ 180 AUD, suits.
* The Territory option $14K brand new from FoMOCO Aus. S/H low kms (185-220kms)$2100-2500 wreckers (4month guarantee)(Not thats worth sh*t from a wrecker).

* Then i have the 32hrs (Remove body off frame) to swap them over. $4500est.

Question is, patch it up and try my luck, rebuild it properly, or swap to a ‘good’ S/h engine. That i will decide over next few days.

[DiscoDB]

Jefferson Ford claim to have the 2.7 in stock for $11,400. Even do click and collect.

This stroker kit sounds very interesting. Would make the 2.7L a 2.8L and in theory get you a new 3.0L crank and latest bearings with tabs. Would need to notch the mains and I guess it comes with custom Con-rods or pistons to suit. Love to know more about how this all fits together.

Are you sure this kit was for the TDV6 and not the 2.7 V6 Petrol that Ford still produce for the US market? Amazed that SVO are interested in the TDV6.

(Ford call the new 3.0TDV6 the 3.0 Powerstroke Diesel).

[Eric SDV6SE]

Hi Garry,
Ive been building engines for my various cars some 20yrs now. I have a few connections.
* I can already find a 3.0L “stroker kit” from Ford SVO Motorsport in USA, that suits the V6 Lion engine. US call it a power stroke. Kit contains rods and stroker crank, then i get my local machinist to machine block and sleeves to suit. However this can easily become expensive. $4k machining, $6100K AUD (incl shipping) for stroker kit.. And a late F150 Oil pump $ 180 AUD, suits.
* The Territory option $14K brand new from FoMOCO Aus. S/H low kms (185-220kms)$2100-2500 wreckers (4month guarantee)(Not thats worth sh*t from a wrecker).

* Then i have the 32hrs (Remove body off frame) to swap them over. $4500est.

Question is, patch it up and try my luck, rebuild it properly, or swap to a ‘good’ S/h engine. That i will decide over next few days.

Or try a RRS V8 swap as done elsewhere on this forum. You always get what you pay for.

[Azza_LR3]

@ Disco DB

(Ford call the new 3.0TDV6 the 3.0 Powerstroke Diesel). This is the new 2022 Ford Ranger Engine, its an Aussie version of the 3.0 Powerstroke Diesel from the US F150. The 3.0 Litre ford use, is based on the Ford UK 2.7 /3.0 Lion variant that we all know. Essentially is the same engine, with the bugs allegedly fixed.

The stroker kit, I am led to believe, will take the 2.7 Lion out to 3.0 like the later D4s. Its a crank, rods, rings, bearings, bigger oil journals etc (yes, after a decade I think ford US finally worked it out). This will be pending final costs.

Unsure which way to go as yet, as I have a deposit down on the Grenadier. So if i walk from that, the disco will get a huge upgrade and birthday.

cheers
Azza

[DiscoDB]

Cheers Azza - yes know all about the 3.0 Powerstroke.

I still remain amazed that anyone in the US would even develop (or sell) a stroker kit for the 2.7TDV6 given this engine was never available in the US.

Makes me wonder if the stroker kit was developed in the UK, but it would be the worlds best kept secret if true.

Will wait with interest to see what you end up doing. A TDV8 conversion would be my pick over attempting an upgrade to the 3.0 (we need someone in Victoria to go first and get the Engineering approvals). [emoji106]

[loanrangie]

We need a guinea pig [bigrolf] -

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[DiscoDB]

We need a guinea pig [bigrolf] -

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Oval Autos gave a batch of Chinese Cranks a go. If I recall correctly one even snapped during the test run (or very shortly thereafter).

There is a Russian mob who will give a 3 year warranty on the cranks they use, but good luck making a claim.

NWS sell a billet crankshaft for the 3.0. Many will argue that forged is superior, but given the weakness of the original crankshaft a billet crankshaft may actually be better. Jury is out on this one as well and exactly where NWS source their cranks from is not clear either.

Makes you wonder where the kits for the 2.7 which come with a crankshaft and getting them from.

[Eric SDV6SE]

NWS sell a billet crankshaft for the 3.0. Many will argue that forged is superior, but given the weakness of the original crankshaft a billet crankshaft may actually be better.

If the billet that the crank is machined from is also forged, its just more machining to get to the same end result. However, a complex shape such as a crank shaft has many corners, edges, transitions and profile changes. In my view, a ​forged crank (then finish machined) will be stronger as the metal grain structure is deformed rather than cut. This is also why high strength bolts with rolled threads are stronger than bolts of the same material but with cut threads. The risk is that if any inclusion in the steel are exposed during forging, this can cause stress raisers and start crack propagation.

I believe that we are seeing snapped cranks as a result of main bearing caps rotating in their seat, causing oil starvation, thus causing the main bearing cap to weld itself to the crank, and the inertia of the rotating engine at this time causes the crank to snap between cylinders 1-2 and 3-4. This is opposed to the crank failing as the root cause and then causing the bearings to fail.

[DieselLSE]

I believe that we are seeing snapped cranks as a result of main bearing caps rotating in their seat, causing oil starvation, thus causing the main bearing cap to weld itself to the crank, and the inertia of the rotating engine at this time causes the crank to snap between cylinders 1-2 and 3-4. This is opposed to the crank failing as the root cause and then causing the bearings to fail.
As plausible an explanation as any. This is getting off topic, so we may need to start (yet) another thread, but assuming this is an accurate assessment of the crankshaft failures, what could be done to the engine to prevent this from happening?
I don't mean servicing, that is a given. But in an engine that has happily motored on for a decade, if you were to remove it and strip it for rebuild, are there any changes that could be made to the bearing caps and/or crankshaft that would correct the issue?

[loanrangie]

As plausible an explanation as any. This is getting off topic, so we may need to start (yet) another thread, but assuming this is an accurate assessment of the crankshaft failures, what could be done to the engine to prevent this from happening?
I don't mean servicing, that is a given. But in an engine that has happily motored on for a decade, if you were to remove it and strip it for rebuild, are there any changes that could be made to the bearing caps and/or crankshaft that would correct the issue?

You would need to determine the reason for the shells rotating, find that and then rectify the issue.
And totally agree with Eric's surmise .

[Azza_LR3]

We need a guinea pig [bigrolf] -

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Guinea Pig here.... I went with a new Territory engine, couldn’t be stiffed with the headache, after the rebuild and parts list came up similar. And yes on further investigation, the stroker crank that i found, was for a ford Exploda.. not a TDI. Lucky i checked up.

Regardless, the Disco is back on the road, new engine, new injectors (most failed a flow/injector test), new water pump, radiator core replaced. And back in action. Still running it in, but vehicle did my high country long weekend in its stride, and im happy with how its running at present. I did notice on the scanguage whilst on the fwy (105km/hr) the water temp has hovering 90-92deg C. and Trans 70-77 deg C. @ 28deg day.

[Azza_LR3]

You would need to determine the reason for the shells rotating, find that and then rectify the issue.
And totally agree with Eric's surmise .

The shells on the earlier models don’t have the small tangs that locate them, the later ones do.. Glad they finally worked it out...

[josh.huber]

The shells on the earlier models don’t have the small tangs that locate them, the later ones do.. Glad they finally worked it out...

Plenty of industrial engines don't either, putting one together today that doesn't.

[DiscoJeffster]

The shells on the earlier models don’t have the small tangs that locate them, the later ones do.. Glad they finally worked it out...

This has been done to death. Tangs we’re to aid in human assembled engines only. A tang will not stop a bearing rotating once a bearing snags. A bearing cannot move unless it has interference as anyone who’s assembled an engine knows, the shape and tension in a bearing keeps it firmly in place. If a bearing rotates it has seized to the crank/rod and is pulled around. You need to fix the reason the bearing touched the shell, not think a tang will solve the issue. Missing tangs is not why these fail. Poor design is.

[Arch]

This has been done to death. Tangs we’re to aid in human assembled engines only. A tang will not stop a bearing rotating once a bearing snags. A bearing cannot move unless it has interference as anyone who’s assembled an engine knows, the shape and tension in a bearing keeps it firmly in place. If a bearing rotates it has seized to the crank/rod and is pulled around. You need to fix the reason the bearing touched the shell, not think a tang will solve the issue. Missing tangs is not why these fail. Poor design is.

I don't believe there is one answer to the importance of tangs. There are many discos etc running the 2.7 and 3.0 engines perfectly without tangs. From what I've seen there may be a range of issues with these engines but mainly an oil supply issue. Most of the evidence suggests its the oil pump but there could be other issues going on as well. I note there have also been reports of broken conrods etc with no damage to the crank.

But back to tangs, Toyota diesels have them. The 1HZ/1HD, 1KD and 1VD engines I've stripped down all have them. So the Toyota engineers think they are a good idea even in the most modern of factories. Other engines I've worked on have them as well. These toyota engines dont have notable histories of spun bearings.

I'm not saying the Citroen engineers and the engineers there after got it wrong, just that there are different views on tangs from an engineering perspective.

[PerthDisco]

Even more surprising to me in the LR Time video is that the top bearing shell is different to the bottom shell!!! They look almost identical.

I hope old mate at the engine factory was told that as well.