Battery talk... Come in Tim.

[Tins]

Not going to say a word about this, but I'd love Tim's thoughts.


https://youtu.be/2o7T2F9rFko

[drivesafe]

Hi and thanks JayTee, I had not seen that video.

It is the typical Lithium Battery B/S sales pitch.

First and foremost, find a single lead acid battery manufacturer that states their batteries should not be discharged below 50% SoC. They are either 20% or many of the newer AGMs are 0%.

Another point, base on the specs of the Redarc lithium batteries, which are just average, there are far better lithium batteries for a fraction of the price. For example, SolarKing are a fraction of the cost and have better specs.

There is lots more that that video incorrectly covers.

[Tins]

Hi and thanks JayTee, I had not seen that video.

It is the typical Lithium Battery B/S sales pitch.

First and foremost, find a single lead acid battery manufacturer that states their batteries should not be discharged below 50% SoC. They are either 20% or many of the newer AGMs are 0%.

Another point, base on the specs of the Redarc lithium batteries, which are just average, there are far better lithium batteries for a fraction of the price. For example, SolarKing are a fraction of the cost and have better specs.

There is lots more that that video incorrectly covers.

Like I said, I wasn't going to say a word, but you have confirmed what I thought initially. Sales pitch mostly.

Thanks for the heads up on SolarKing.

[drivesafe]

That video only gives half the story on a number of subjects.

For instants, the fridge runs 100% longer on the lithium battery then it does on the AGM???????????????????????????

This actually has more to do with the quality of the fridge compressor than the battery type.

I can not comment on that brand of fridge as I have never work with them.

But, while you would get slightly more operating time when using a lithium battery, it would be so insignificant and the additional run time would be lost in the fact that the lithium would take at least 3 times longer driving time to recharge the battery via a DC/DC device.

He stated that his two AGMs only lasted 3 years and I bet ( while not stated ) that they were being charged by a DC/DC device.

As such, the AGMs were probably never decently charge after each drive.

Because he has a Toyota, which has a VARIABLE Voltage ( NOT a SMART ) alternator, he could have easily charged his AGMs directly ( via a simple VSR ) off his alternator and I bet they would have lasted much longer.

When compared to using one of my isolators, it would actually be a huge step backwards to go to a Lithium battery setup.

[trout1105]

Over 4 years ago I fitted 4x 100AH AGM batteries ( 2 in the van and 2 in the 79 Series) that are charged via solar alone (400w on the van and 200w on the Toyota), They are still working just as good as the day I fitted them[thumbsupbig]
I also recently fitted a 160w panel and a 110AH AGM battery to my D2a which again is solely powered/charged via solar.

The reason why I have chosen to Not have the batteries charged via the vehicles alternator is that I want to keep the 12v system as simple and as bullet proof as it can be.

I presume that the batteries getting fully charged Every day via the solar panals instead of sitting idle until the engine is started Is helping to keep them in good order.

[simonmelb]

My 120AH AGM in the RH rear storage bin in my D2a is still working fine after 11 Years. Granted it probably has less than 2/3 of the original capacity as I don't baby it !

But it only gets charged with with alternator via one of Tims SC80's.

Simple setup and ultra reliable.

[drivesafe]

Hi Simon, what is the brand of you AGM?

[simonmelb]

Hi Tim,

Its a Neuton Power AGM. 120AH and weighs about 39 kg so not easy to get into the rear bin!


Next battery I’ll try and find something lighter, possibly and affordable Lithium I think which should be around 10 Kg for the same usable AH?




Hi Simon, what is the brand of you AGM?

[DeanoH]

Well, I got about half way through this video and gave it away ........................................... Talk about a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. I reckon this bloke is probably well intentioned in spite of his obvious sponsorship by Redarc but he's clearly got no understanding of lead acid battery chemistry, imagine lead sulphate forming on the plates, shock horror :o. How the hell does he think a lead acid battery works ? And a 50% discharge limit, what a load of crap. Sure, the deeper you discharge a battery the shorter its life, no surprises there. Personally I use 11.7 volts or around 30% SOC as my max no worries discharge limit for lead acid. IMO re-charging rate is more likely to ruin a deeply discharged lead acid battery than its actual discharge level, slow is good :)

It goes on, Lithium batterys have greater discharge current than lead acid, bull ****. Try running your winch of your Lithiums and see how well it goes. As for longevity, I finally swapped out my Optima AGM's after 7 years and they were still at 80+%.

No mention what so ever about charge current limiting for Lithiums (maybe in second half of video?) and possible alternator damage, though a DC-DC is basically essential IMO to overcome this potential issue but rarely explained or discussed.

It goes on, $1900 for a 100 AH Lithium, you've got to be on Meth to swallow this one. FFS you'll pick up a PAIR of Solar King 100 AH Lithiums today for under $1200 and with a five year warranty. I bought a two of these a couple of years ago and they've been great for my Oka house battery. With 400+ watts of solar panels, a quality solar controller and DC-DC charger (rarely needed) the whole lot costs about the same as one extremely overpriced Redarc 100 AH Lithium battery.

Deano :)

[AK83]

What got me was his info that the AGM was only capable to outputting a maximum of 30A ... (at the 10min mark) ... and using the angle grinder as an example of a device that needs high power.

Really! .. an AGM that only has a max output current of 30amps. Not a $300 dollar AGM at least .. maybe a cheapo unlabelled Chinese maybe.
Considering that he's run twin AGMs for years, and much of what they do on that show .. he should know better than that.

No mention that the lithium battery will struggle(or explode!) if you try to start a vehicle, or run a winch off it.
Also no mention that the Redarc battery is recommended for a 50A continuous discharge rate.

All he had to do was ignore the B.S spiel that the Redarc rep had written, and just used the info directly off the Redarc website for this battery:


REDARC’s 12V 100Ah standard variant has a recommended continuous discharge of 50A, ideal for applications when high currents are not required for an extended period and can be used with an inverter up to 500W in size (per battery).

You're not really going to get a 500W inverter to run a 40A 240v angle grinder(unless you're only slicing and dicing an index finger for a sec [biggrin])

I guess they got to pay for their bills somehow! [bigwhistle]

[W&KO]

Thought I’d have a bopeep at solar king website given they have been mentioned few times.

I’m not overly excited about the specs of their batteries….I looked at the 200ah as I run a 200…

Unless I’m reading it all wrong…….Solar king don’t have a battery to suit battery my application.

Price is probably OK for running a fridge and a few other low draw bits and pieces..o guess you get what you pay for.

Hmmm and apparently lithium’s can’t lt be used as starters or winching…….

[Tins]

Need to talk to Deans and Tim about this. I need to decide on what system to install. My OKA has totally separate start and house systems which is in great need of upgrading.

[drivesafe]

Hi Tins and I know next to nothing about an OKA's electrics.

I suspect it has a constant alternator voltage, probably around the 14.0v to 14.3v.

Can you tell me what yours is?

Anything over 13.8v, you could run a bank of lithium house batteries and possibly charge direct from the alternator.

[drivesafe]

I looked at the 200ah as I run a 200…
I would not touch the SolarKing 200Ah Lithium batteries.

There are two 100Ah Solarking lithium batteries and SKU6470C has the same operating specs as the 200Ah.

Their site and battery model numbers are a bit confusing but the SKU6470C is far better than most other batteries of similar size but is far better priced.

[drivesafe]

No mention what so ever about charge current limiting for Lithiums (maybe in second half of video?) and possible alternator damage.
Deano :)
Hi Deano, there is no threat to the alternator as high current loads can not harm an alternator because they are actually self-protecting.

But most Lithium batteries will not tolerate high current recharging, including that Redarc battery.

With something like a genuine Drop-In lithium battery, your would be OK charging direct off the alternator, just need a means to disable the SMART alternator function in newer vehicles or nothing will charge, Lithium auxiliary battery or the Cranking battery.

[Tins]

One thing he did get right was the weight. Not a concern for me in the OKA[smilebigeye]

Tim, I'll get back to you on the alternator. I know it's a Bosch, and the car is 28 years old so it ain't going to be "smart". Cunning, perhaps. A sparky I'm not, but I'm pretty sure the current (!) system is that the alternator charges only the crank battery and the solar takes care of the house, but I'm not 100% on that as it really doesn't make sense to me as the sun doesn't always shine. It's all a bit hard to see, so there's possibly an isolator hiding in there somewhere.

This is the solar controller. An oldie but hopefully still a goodie.
176445

[BradC]

This is the solar controller. An oldie but hopefully still a goodie.


We had one of those on the boat. Replace it with a modern MPPT jobbie and get more bang for your panel.

[Tins]

We had one of those on the boat. Replace it with a modern MPPT jobbie and get more bang for your panel.

This is my first excursion into solar power. Lot to learn it seems. MPPT jobbies appear to be cheap enough.
..

[drivesafe]

Hi again Tins and just a suggestion.

Why not just see if your existing regulator meets your needs before buying a new reg.

[Tins]

Hi again Tins and just a suggestion.

Why not just see if your existing regulator meets your needs before buying a new reg.

Well, so far it is Tim. But it hasn't been put to the test very much. I have other fish to fry before I need to worry too much about it. But if I get to do what I hope to do my power demands will increase.

[Aaron IIA]

If you do buy a new solar regulator, make sure it is a real MPPT regulator. It will cost at least $100 for a small unit, more if you want one bigger than to suit a 200W panel. Those that are around $50 or less may be stated as MPPT, but they are not. I like the offerings from Victron Blue.

Aaron

[incisor]

FPV-POWER 24V 110Ah LiFePO4 with Charger (https://www.fpv-power.com.au/FPV-POWER-12V%20-220Ah-LiFePO4)

is where i am headed when i win lotto...

i use epever 40amp MPPT controllers and they have been excellent

[Tins]

FPV-POWER 24V 110Ah LiFePO4 with Charger (https://www.fpv-power.com.au/FPV-POWER-12V%20-220Ah-LiFePO4)

is where i am headed when i win lotto...

i use epever 40amp MPPT controllers and they have been excellent

Yeah, well I'm winning lotto first.

Interesting though, I was looking at this earlier today. EPEVER 30A Solar Charge Controller MPPT 12V / 24V Auto Max.PV 100V Input Negative Ground Solar Panel Charge Regulator with MT50 Remote Meter Temperature Sensor RTS & PC Communication Cable RS485 : Amazon.com.au: Sports, Fitness & Outdoors (https://www.amazon.com.au/EPEVER-Controller-Regulator-Temperature-Communication/dp/B081JVRYLB/ref=sr_1_42?crid=195PLS8T374BO&keywords=mppt%2Bsolar%2Bcharge%2Bcontroller&qid=1642663685&sprefix=MPPT%2Caps%2C571&sr=8-42&th=1)

[incisor]

Yeah, well I'm winning lotto first.

Interesting though, I was looking at this earlier today. EPEVER 30A Solar Charge Controller MPPT 12V / 24V Auto Max.PV 100V Input Negative Ground Solar Panel Charge Regulator with MT50 Remote Meter Temperature Sensor RTS & PC Communication Cable RS485 : Amazon.com.au: Sports, Fitness & Outdoors (https://www.amazon.com.au/EPEVER-Controller-Regulator-Temperature-Communication/dp/B081JVRYLB/ref=sr_1_42?crid=195PLS8T374BO&keywords=mppt%2Bsolar%2Bcharge%2Bcontroller&qid=1642663685&sprefix=MPPT%2Caps%2C571&sr=8-42&th=1)I have that set up in the defender

PS

the only downside to the epever is the fuses are soldered to the mainboard but if your handy with a soldering iron it is an easy fix...

[Slunnie]

Hi Deano, there is no threat to the alternator as high current loads can not harm an alternator because they are actually self-protecting.

But most Lithium batteries will not tolerate high current recharging, including that Redarc battery.

With something like a genuine Drop-In lithium battery, your would be OK charging direct off the alternator, just need a means to disable the SMART alternator function in newer vehicles or nothing will charge, Lithium auxiliary battery or the Cranking battery.

Hey Tim, I was hoping to tap into your expertise also if thats ok.

I'm a total Lithium newbie. I'm currently running a Lifeline 150ah AGM Deep cycle in the back of my Disco2 via just a simple volt sensing solinoid isolator. Its been fine as a setup.
Is there any benefit of going to a LifePO4 lithium battery setup in this case. One of our work suppliers sells the Fusion lithium batteries, however I'm not sure now if there would be much to be gained from my Disco2 setup after reading this. He said those batteries are supposed to be a direct drop in where normal batteries are used and not need Dc-Dc chargers for the voltage and which sound like they just slow down the charging rate com[pared to charging directly from the alternator - but I just didn't want to go down a path where the Disco2 wont properly charge it either due to voltage or charging current limitations. The links to the batteries are below. I've got no idea what type of alternator a Disco2 has. Oooh, sorry for the grave dig on this thread.

GPL-30HT AGM Battery - Lifeline Batteries (https://lifelinebatteries.com/products/marine-batteries/gpl-30ht/)
V-LFP-12-150 | 12v 150AH Fusion Lithium Battery | Deep Cycle
– Energy Eco
(https://www.energyeco.com.au/products/v-lfp-12-150)
Oooh, sorry for the grave dig on this thread.

[drivesafe]

Hey Tim, I was hoping to tap into your expertise also if thats ok.

I'm a total Lithium newbie. I'm currently running a Lifeline 150ah AGM Deep cycle in the back of my Disco2 via just a simple volt sensing solinoid isolator. Its been fine as a setup.
Is there any benefit of going to a LifePO4 lithium battery setup in this case. One of our work suppliers sells the Fusion lithium batteries, however I'm not sure now if there would be much to be gained from my Disco2 setup after reading this. He said those batteries are supposed to be a direct drop in where normal batteries are used and not need Dc-Dc chargers for the voltage and which sound like they just slow down the charging rate com[pared to charging directly from the alternator - but I just didn't want to go down a path where the Disco2 wont properly charge it either due to voltage or charging current limitations. The links to the batteries are below. I've got no idea what type of alternator a Disco2 has. Oooh, sorry for the grave dig on this thread.

GPL-30HT AGM Battery - Lifeline Batteries (https://lifelinebatteries.com/products/marine-batteries/gpl-30ht/)
V-LFP-12-150 | 12v 150AH Fusion Lithium Battery | Deep Cycle
– Energy Eco
(https://www.energyeco.com.au/products/v-lfp-12-150)
Oooh, sorry for the grave dig on this thread.

Hi Slunnie and I am pretty sure your D2 has nothing more than a Variable Voltage type alternator operation.

If so then you will have no problems fitting a Lithium battery.

Just make sure the battery can tolerate high current charging, such as 100 amp continues charging.

You will also need a high current switching RELAY so you can separate the batteries when you turn your motor off.

Basically, thats, it.

A note for everyone else, this info applies to Variable Voltage type alternator only, NOT SMART alternators.

[Slunnie]

Hi Slunnie and I am pretty sure your D2 has nothing more than a Variable Voltage type alternator operation.

If so then you will have no problems fitting a Lithium battery.

Just make sure the battery can tolerate high current charging, such as 100 amp continues charging.

You will also need a high current switching RELAY so you can separate the batteries when you turn your motor off.

Basically, thats, it.

A note for everyone else, this info applies to Variable Voltage type alternator only, NOT SMART alternators.

Awesome, thanks so much for this Tim. That sounds like a really good and simple setup. I like it a lot. Sounds like it will need a wire and fuse upgrade as well, but thats an opportunity to redo it. Thanks again.

[drivesafe]

Awesome, thanks so much for this Tim. That sounds like a really good and simple setup. I like it a lot. Sounds like it will need a wire and fuse upgrade as well, but thats an opportunity to redo it. Thanks again.
Hi again Slunnie, if you are not in a hurry, I have a modified version of my DT90 program, which is specifically setup for vehicles with Variable Voltage alternators to be able to run a lithium battery as an auxiliary battery but will offer major advantages to using a simple solenoid, such as the potential of an infinite life span for your lead acid cranking battery.

The modified DT90 program just needs a few more tests.

[Slunnie]

Hi again Slunnie, if you are not in a hurry, I have a modified version of my DT90 program, which is specifically setup for vehicles with Variable Voltage alternators to be able to run a lithium battery as an auxiliary battery but will offer major advantages to using a simple solenoid, such as the potential of an infinite life span for your lead acid cranking battery.

The modified DT90 program just needs a few more tests.

Thanks, absolutely zero rush. I was also looking at your USI-160 for the current capacity with the 120A alternator.

[drivesafe]

Thanks, absolutely zero rush. I was also looking at your USI-160 for the current capacity with the 120A alternator.

Hi again Slunnie and the 120 amp alternator can easily be handled by a DT90 and I will explain how it works.

Under normal use, with the way the Traxide isolators work, after being camped for say three days and having two low batteries, when you start your drive, the current output of your alternator will be split three ways.

Your vehicles electrical load, during the day, will be around 20 to 30 amps and at night, 30 to 45 amps.

At best, this will leave you bo more than about 100 amps to recharge two batteries.

With the split being around equal as your auxiliary battery, even though it is smaller than your cranking battery, will be in a lower state of charge and will draw a higher recharge current.

This would make the 100 amps available, divided pretty well in half, so the DT90 would only be handling about 50 amps max.

Even with something like a late model D4, with a 220 amp alternator, the total load being handled, at its peak, would only be around 100 amps.

Now NOTE, a DT90s switching load is 90 amps, but its constant load can be much higher and and even if your DT90 was off when you first start your motor, the current output of the alternator will be quite low for a few seconds to a minute or so, because of the low motor revs till you get up and moving.

Hope that helps!