Power prices, gas prices- ouch or Solar perhaps?

[NavyDiver]

I reckon this is the problem in one video.


https://youtu.be/NIALzDX8nvs?si=YLBK-6o3L5650h-7

The Pics on the news of QLD smashed solar panels are ouch- Noting my Disco got Smashed in Melb! The Insurance about them was interesting and worth checking if you have them!

News-
Australian households will be able to access free electricity for three hours every day, in an effort to encourage energy use when excess solar power is being fed into the grid.
The federal government scheme will require retailers to offer free electricity to households for at least three hours in the middle of the day, when there is often more electricity generated than is being used, leading to very cheap or even negative wholesale prices.
The Solar Sharer scheme will initially be introduced to consumers on the default market offer in NSW, south-east Queensland and South Australia from July next year, with consultation to extend the scheme to other jurisdictions by 2027.
Households with smart meters will be able to run washers and dryers, air conditioning or any other appliances for free within the three-hour window.
Australians to get three hours of free electricity every day under solar scheme - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-11-03/energy-retailers-offer-free-power-three-hours-dmo/105965472)

One side of me chuckled as everyone with Solar usually has more than 3 hours of no cost power. The Economist bent of myself says "It's NOT FREE' Its paid for personally or by taxpayers not given away by the power companies [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]



The daker side of this is it seem to me that time of use power is going to be more common. It's already here via some plans.

"The government said the shift in demand was expected to lower costs for everyone by reducing peak demand in the evening, which would also minimise the need for "costly" network upgrades to ensure grid stability." The Economist bent of myself knows it may kick the can down the road a bit but inflation will make the changes cost more eventually and who pays for increased cost is very clear!:rulez:
"The maximum price retailers can charge on standing offer contracts, would rise from 0.5 per cent to 9.7 per cent across the country, depending on location"

What was the inflation rate in the Video Captain R? I did note and thought it was possibly understated with out knowing if State or fed power subsidies were on those bill [bigrolf]

The smart- organized and prepared can make use of the zero?? cost power period - Should be NO Charge period as there is costs
The No Cost bit is also No Pay bit as the Feed In Tariffs for exported Solar is usually $0.01 or possibly even a Negative amount :)


Its windy and raining for the Melb cup- Solar is just
1.08kW now. that's covering me with no charge power at 08:40 :) My system only exports if when battery, car and load is covered.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The Pics on the news of QLD smashed solar panels are ouch- Noting my Disco got Smashed in Melb! The Insurance about them was interesting and worth checking if you have them!

News-
Australian households will be able to access free electricity for three hours every day, in an effort to encourage energy use when excess solar power is being fed into the grid.
The federal government scheme will require retailers to offer free electricity to households for at least three hours in the middle of the day, when there is often more electricity generated than is being used, leading to very cheap or even negative wholesale prices.
The Solar Sharer scheme will initially be introduced to consumers on the default market offer in NSW, south-east Queensland and South Australia from July next year, with consultation to extend the scheme to other jurisdictions by 2027.
Households with smart meters will be able to run washers and dryers, air conditioning or any other appliances for free within the three-hour window.
Australians to get three hours of free electricity every day under solar scheme - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-11-03/energy-retailers-offer-free-power-three-hours-dmo/105965472)

One side of me chuckled as everyone with Solar usually has more than 3 hours of no cost power. The Economist bent of myself says "It's NOT FREE' Its paid for personally or by taxpayers not given away by the power companies [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]



The daker side of this is it seem to me that time of use power is going to be more common. It's already here via some plans.

"The government said the shift in demand was expected to lower costs for everyone by reducing peak demand in the evening, which would also minimise the need for "costly" network upgrades to ensure grid stability." The Economist bent of myself knows it may kick the can down the road a bit but inflation will make the changes cost more eventually and who pays for increased cost is very clear!:rulez:
"The maximum price retailers can charge on standing offer contracts, would rise from 0.5 per cent to 9.7 per cent across the country, depending on location"

What was the inflation rate in the Video Captain R? I did note and thought it was possibly understated with out knowing if State or fed power subsidies were on those bill [bigrolf]

The smart- organized and prepared can make use of the zero?? cost power period - Should be NO Charge period as there is costs
The No Cost bit is also No Pay bit as the Feed In Tariffs for exported Solar is usually $0.01 or possibly even a Negative amount :)


Its windy and raining for the Melb cup- Solar is just
1.08kW
now. that's covering me with no charge power at 08:40 :) My system only exports if when battery, car and load is covered.
I suspect that it's going to get to the point where you'll basically have to have a battery if you want to use power in peak periods. People who live in climates where AC is nice, and who fitted electric appliances when they were encouraging us to do so are going to get done. You've only got to look at demand tariffs now. Next level nasty.

They should really be getting around this with grid scale storage but it looks like they are going to push the problem onto the consumer. If I were a power company I'd be delighted by this. Let someone else solve your problem while you make the moulah.

[NavyDiver]

I suspect that it's going to get to the point where you'll basically have to have a battery if you want to use power in peak periods. People who live in climates where AC is nice, and who fitted electric appliances when they were encouraging us to do so are going to get done. You've only got to look at demand tariffs now. Next level nasty.

They should really be getting around this with grid scale storage but it looks like they are going to push the problem onto the consumer. If I were a power company I'd be delighted by this. Let someone else solve your problem while you make the moulah.


About to put Kim K in conspiracy theories- Grid scale storage is a hoot that belongs in there as well. Storage for how long? :)

[Tombie]

I suspect that it's going to get to the point where you'll basically have to have a battery if you want to use power in peak periods. People who live in climates where AC is nice, and who fitted electric appliances when they were encouraging us to do so are going to get done. You've only got to look at demand tariffs now. Next level nasty.

They should really be getting around this with grid scale storage but it looks like they are going to push the problem onto the consumer. If I were a power company I'd be delighted by this. Let someone else solve your problem while you make the moulah.

I’d say your thinking is correct.
I do wonder though, where this will lead.

If everyone were to go home power storage / generation and then disconnect from the grid that could have some interesting implications for mainstream producers.

I know that if I go down the path of storage it will be sufficient alongside my generation to ensure i have no need to draw from the grid, and will disconnect from the mains in its entirety.

If others followed suit, there would only be commercial / manufacturing that had a need for power from mainstream sources and that could have serious implications on their business model.

[Tombie]

About to put Kim K in conspiracy theories- Grid scale storage is a hoot that belongs in there as well. Storage for how long? :)

The big battery (Elons first one here in SA) has the capability to run our work site for all of about 8 minutes!

Grid level storage isn’t even remotely sufficient and unlikely to meet the needs for electricity of an increasingly dependent population.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I’d say your thinking is correct.
I do wonder though, where this will lead.

If everyone were to go home power storage / generation and then disconnect from the grid that could have some interesting implications for mainstream producers.

I know that if I go down the path of storage it will be sufficient alongside my generation to ensure i have no need to draw from the grid, and will disconnect from the mains in its entirety.

If others followed suit, there would only be commercial / manufacturing that had a need for power from mainstream sources and that could have serious implications on their business model.
So we used to say "but then you can't sell back to the grid if you have excess. But then that was worth nothing and they started trying to charge to give the grid solar!

So now the only reason not to disconnect from the grid, assuming you've got a banging big system and maybe don't use that much power is those times when you have two weeks of cloud! What's the plan then? I'm not sure that we should be encouraging people in suburbia because your neighbours all running their generator might get old.

Ultimately it's really just the daily connection charge at stake.. what's that typically $1 a day?

I'm pretty sure if we bought a battery and had access to one of the plans that have three hours free .. that with solar and so on I think we would only very occasionally have to buy power. So our bills would be pretty much just the daily supply charge.

But even with the battery rebate thing batteries are a fair chunk of change.

I'm not sure if I mentioned this - but if you participate in a VPP then Tesla at least moves you to a maximum throughput for their warranty rather than a flat 10 year. Given they are now LFP I'm pretty confident they will breeze through the ten years.. unlike the earlier powerwalls

[DoubleChevron]

FYI. The Centre For Independent Studies is a well known right wing group which is known for it's anti renewable policies and lobbying.

Donald Trump'''s '''climate hoax''' comments belong to a well-resourced playbook landing on Australia'''s shores - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-09-29/trump-climate-hoax-comments-and-fossil-fuel-lobby/105810870)

Just a moment... (https://reneweconomy.com.au/the-network-of-conservative-think-tanks-out-to-kill-the-switch-to-renewables/)

Just for fun I had a little dig into what these guys actually think we should do, and I can't really find that they have any plan but they do think current policies are rubbish. That's the problem with all this - if you don't like what's being done come up with a compelling alternative!


OMG ...this is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. You say that women that is simply stating facts is a "right wing group". I didn't her say she was against renewables even once in that video. She simply states the issues with cost and reliability.

Then you proceed to link and ABC new website doing there usual "the world will end, trump evil stupid and bad ... we must do good ... listen to us" massive progaganda piece. Every link I looked at linked there own heavily biased previous articles. Seriously I'm so disgusted the the heavily biased one sided crap printed as "news" on the ABC website, I can't even look at it these days.

I know nothing about the national party, but look at them attack someone there .... character assassination by comparing him to the evil trump .... If only I could just go along with stupidity life would be so much easier. I'm going to have to look at the national party before the next election though, if they are already trying to run campaigning on how scary and terrible they are ... Do we finally have somoene speaking logical, sensible truth :o

[Tins]

FYI. The Centre For Independent Studies is a well known right wing group which is known for it's anti renewable policies and lobbying.

Donald Trump'''s '''climate hoax''' comments belong to a well-resourced playbook landing on Australia'''s shores - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-09-29/trump-climate-hoax-comments-and-fossil-fuel-lobby/105810870)

Just a moment... (https://reneweconomy.com.au/the-network-of-conservative-think-tanks-out-to-kill-the-switch-to-renewables/)

Just for fun I had a little dig into what these guys actually think we should do, and I can't really find that they have any plan but they do think current policies are rubbish. That's the problem with all this - if you don't like what's being done come up with a compelling alternative!
Hilarious. Attack the messenger you don’t agree with and use name calling to smear them, and then provide links to other messenger sites that do agree with you.
How about debating the subject matter?

[DoubleChevron]

Hilarious. Attack the messenger you don’t agree with and use name calling to smear them, and then provide links to other messenger sites that do agree with you.
How about debating the subject matter?

It would end up as another electric car thread. I can't see anything wrong with a lot of the renewables, we just need to be sensible. Given that video, 20% renewables sounds to be the sweet spot before it becomes a massive cost burden on the population. windmills for example do my head in ... is there anything less efficient that requires such staggering infrastructure and upkeep needs while generating so little for the investment and upkeep.... this is forgetting the tiny life of them (if they don't burn).

[Captain_Rightfoot]

OMG ...this is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. You say that women that is simply stating facts is a "right wing group". I didn't her say she was against renewables even once in that video. She simply states the issues with cost and reliability.

Then you proceed to link and ABC new website doing there usual "the world will end, trump evil stupid and bad ... we must do good ... listen to us" massive progaganda piece. Every link I looked at linked there own heavily biased previous articles. Seriously I'm so disgusted the the heavily biased one sided crap printed as "news" on the ABC website, I can't even look at it these days.

I know nothing about the national party, but look at them attack someone there .... character assassination by comparing him to the evil trump .... If only I could just go along with stupidity life would be so much easier. I'm going to have to look at the national party before the next election though, if they are already trying to run campaigning on how scary and terrible they are ... Do we finally have somoene speaking logical, sensible truth :o

I'm sure she's chosen her "facts" very carefully. She's got the target market she was paid to get. [bigwhistle]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Hilarious. Attack the messenger you don’t agree with and use name calling to smear them, and then provide links to other messenger sites that do agree with you.
How about debating the subject matter?
FYI Zoe Hilton is not a climate scientist. She's got a science and arts degree. She's never worked in the field. She's been a policy adviser since she left uni in 2019. She aint no climate scientist.

Eloquently convincing people who don't know better is her career.

She's a mouthpiece.

[DoubleChevron]

I'm sure she's chosen her "facts" very carefully. She's got the target market she was paid to get. [bigwhistle]

What on earth are you talking about. Use your brain. Who cares who she is, do you think the newsreaders on the news investigate and know deeply the subjects they are talking about.

This defines a woke moron in my experience, attack the person that is saying something you don't agree with rather than sensibly discussing any topic.

Our entire system was built to have very large generators in one spot. From here the infrastructure is "giant high power cables" from the plant, slowly reducing in size as you get further and further away from the generator (this is common sense). So Lets say you live in Birchip Victoria. You might have one small power line running to the town. If we put in a huge solar and wind farm here ... We cannot feed anything back into the grid as the infrastructure is not designed for this (like I said, common sense... ).

What you are trying to argue is bluntly ... well moronic. Her overview as very good of the issues we are currently facing. Now a smart person (far smarter than me) would come up with way of getting around these issues. Building another giant sized power generator in the area the existing power generators are would be the smartest move. You cannot do this with renewables though as they take massive amounts of land. Just look at the insane wind farms within a couple of hours of drive from me. Just insane the infrastructure needs to get to all of them.

I'm not for or against any form of power generation, but gee's, can't there be just the tiniest bit of common sense applied ever [bighmmm]

seeya
Shane L.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

FYI Zoe Hilton is not a climate scientist. She's got a science and arts degree. She's never worked in the field. She's been a policy adviser since she left uni in 2019. She aint no climate scientist.

Eloquently convincing people who don't know better is her career.

She's a mouthpiece.

Her career isn't based on telling the truth about these matters. Not like a real climate scientist. She's a policy advisor.

It's about persuading her audience about what her employers want her to say. She's an employee of the Centre for Independent Studies. There are several credited "researchers" for this piece.

Her employer, Centre for Independent Studies doesn't disclose who funds them. Strangely.

From AI




Previously Disclosed Donors: Past corporate funders have included companies like BHP Billiton, Shell, ICI, and the Vincent Fairfax Family Foundation. Individual donors have included Dame Elisabeth Murdoch, Neville Kennard, and Robert Champion de Crespigny.



If that piece resounds with you then I'm happy for you. I'll keep listening to the scientists about these matters myself.

Ethos, Pathos, Logos. I can't get past the Ethos here.

[DoubleChevron]

Her career isn't based on telling the truth about these matters. Not like a real climate scientist. She's a policy advisor.

It's about persuading her audience about what her employers want her to say. She's an employee of the Centre for Independent Studies. There are several credited "researchers" for this piece.

Her employer, Centre for Independent Studies doesn't disclose who funds them. Strangely.

From AI



If that piece resounds with you then I'm happy for you. I'll keep listening to the scientists about these matters myself.

Ethos, Pathos, Logos. I can't get past the Ethos here.

I don't care who or what she is, is she speaking common sense? See what I mean, because she is stating simple facts, you attack her personally, rather than addressing the content she is posting (as she is 100% correct).. The hilarious part is ... you link woke propaganda pieces as your "source of truth". Even blind freddie can see the ABC article are nonsense. Well, not nonsense, but massively, hugely biased.

So to prove the first thing she says is wrong. Find me the country that has wind and solar renewables and cheap reliable​ power. There is an entire planet of countries to choose from. This should be very simple given everyone (especially the ABC) is screaming how much cheaper power is with renewables.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I don't care who or what she is, is she speaking common sense? See what I mean, because she is stating simple facts, you attack her personally, rather than addressing the content she is posting (as she is 100% correct).. The hilarious part is ... you link woke propaganda pieces as your "source of truth". Even blind freddie can see the ABC article are nonsense. Well, not nonsense, but massively, hugely biased.

So to prove the first thing she says is wrong. Find me the country that has wind and solar renewables and cheap reliable​ power. There is an entire planet of countries to choose from. This should be very simple given everyone (especially the ABC) is screaming how much cheaper power is with renewables.

Mate.. you can pick whatever facts you like to support any argument you like out there. It's the internet of things. She's got a message her employer wants to get out there, and she's picked the "facts" that support what they want her to say.

Sorry, but I'd be more likely to believe a journalist. At least they have some ethics. We know who they are paid by, and who their employer is.

Rather than an early 20's policy adviser policy advisor with no qualifications in the field whose employer is funded by BHP and a bunch of others who her employer refuses to divulge. Red flag. It's just political advertising.

In the days where there is so much disinformation on the internet.. who its being said by, and who they are being paid by is important.

I'm happy to look at the points she makes if you can find them being made by a reputable source. I'm confident you won't. [bigwhistle]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Anyway, back to the topic.

With the feds going to force all the providers to offer free power 11-2 I'm very interested in how it's going to affect the market.

Like so much in the power market. It seems like a good idea but I'm not sure how many people will be able to meaningfully make use of it. I think people who can spend cash will be the real winners as they can set things. People with Pools, Batteries, EV's will be winners. People with more normal stuff. I mean you can run your washing machine and dryer, etc, but if it forces them onto demand pricing .. they may well save a little during the free time and end up paying more for peak power usage.

I can see power suppliers putting power prices up outside this window. House always wins.

[Graeme]

The proposal is only for those on standard rates and therefore higher rates than those usually available. My bet is at the same time the standard FIT will be zero, not that its far above that now.

[DoubleChevron]

Mate.. you can pick whatever facts you like to support any argument you like out there. It's the internet of things. She's got a message her employer wants to get out there, and she's picked the "facts" that support what they want her to say.

Sorry, but I'd be more likely to believe a journalist. At least they have some ethics. We know who they are paid by, and who their employer is.

Rather than an early 20's policy adviser policy advisor with no qualifications in the field whose employer is funded by BHP and a bunch of others who her employer refuses to divulge. Red flag. It's just political advertising.

In the days where there is so much disinformation on the internet.. who its being said by, and who they are being paid by is important.

I'm happy to look at the points she makes if you can find them being made by a reputable source. I'm confident you won't. [bigwhistle]

So that is a 100% definite no, there is absolutely nothing in that video that can be disproven. I thought as much. :)

I don't care what a "side" or ideology of something is. I appreciate hearing good factual overviews. Both the "for" and "against" factual overview should be very close to matching up, but be looking at it from a different perspective .... ie: most things are a "gray" area. This is simple black and white though, she has basically stated the exact issues and problems we are currently facing.

Net zero appears to be some magic pie in the sky "thing" that trumps all. You only have to hear a broad overview of what they wish to do to know it is utter nonsense..... that could never be done. But what we do is we "hide" everything (eg: the UK burning wood for power generation and claiming this is good for the environment). Its all just nonsense if you have even the tiniest working brain.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So that is a 100% definite no, there is absolutely nothing in that video that can be disproven. I thought as much. :)

I don't care what a "side" or ideology of something is. I appreciate hearing good factual overviews. Both the "for" and "against" factual overview should be very close to matching up, but be looking at it from a different perspective .... ie: most things are a "gray" area. This is simple black and white though, she has basically stated the exact issues and problems we are currently facing.

Net zero appears to be some magic pie in the sky "thing" that trumps all. You only have to hear a broad overview of what they wish to do to know it is utter nonsense..... that could never be done. But what we do is we "hide" everything (eg: the UK burning wood for power generation and claiming this is good for the environment). Its all just nonsense if you have even the tiniest working brain.

Looks like they were successful. That's what they want you to think.

So there is an Australian. Dr Saul Griffiths. He lives in Woolongong I believe. He's got two kids. Have a read of his bio. Quite different to the influencer. He's doing this for his kids.

Saul Griffith | Inventor, author, founder, and scientist. (https://www.saulgriffith.com)

You're pretty got already, but if you want to see how it could be done have a watch of this video. It's the shortest one I could find and closest to the style you like. It's for America but it's the same plan for here.. it's the explanation I'm highlighting. Jump about 3 and a half minutes in where they've done a good job of explaining how it's done. If you understand that you'll see why it's not unachievable at all. We have the tech now.

He's also done this analysis for Australia. There are many long form excellent interviews done by him on YT. Heaps and heaps. O

That's who I'm going to listen to on this. Sorry.


https://youtu.be/QfAXbGInwno?si=ebROI16hMAl0zBBS

https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/sites/default/files/styles/book_large/public/9781760643874.jpg?itok=v0CkJqjd

[DoubleChevron]

Looks like they were successful. That's what they want you to think.

So there is an Australian. Dr Saul Griffiths. He lives in Woolongong I believe. He's got two kids. Have a read of his bio. Quite different to the influencer. He's doing this for his kids.

Saul Griffith | Inventor, author, founder, and scientist. (https://www.saulgriffith.com)

You're pretty got already, but if you want to see how it could be done have a watch of this video. It's the shortest one I could find and closest to the style you like. It's for America but it's the same plan for here.. it's the explanation I'm highlighting. Jump about 3 and a half minutes in where they've done a good job of explaining how it's done. If you understand that you'll see why it's not unachievable at all. We have the tech now.

He's also done this analysis for Australia. There are many long form excellent interviews done by him on YT. Heaps and heaps. O

That's who I'm going to listen to on this. Sorry.


https://youtu.be/QfAXbGInwno?si=ebROI16hMAl0zBBS

https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/sites/default/files/styles/book_large/public/9781760643874.jpg?itok=v0CkJqjd



Achievable dependent on time frame, is dependent and what they consider "net zero" to be today. Its like the carbon scheme ... all fancy and amazing, but a load of merde. They were "planting" pre-existing forests, not clearing land that was already not to be cleared, planting trees where they would never grow. As soon as you ever take a glimse into these types of schemes, its just smoke and mirrors.

How many billions/trillions will we need to spend on massive fire prone batteries .... how many new mines will we need to dig for the copper and nickel ... and lithium... and everything. To meet any of the nonsense targets currently being planned across the world. By 2050 we will need more copper than has ever been mined by man throughout all of recorded history.... to come even remotely close to these insane (absolutely nuts) targets. Do you know how hard it is to start new mines anywhere in the world that isn't a 3rd world country? You really think these is even remotely likely, even it the biggest wet dream a greeny will ever have [bighmmm]

its all nuts .... impossible.... lunacy... there is no other way can it possibly be described. Sam griffin maybe 100% right from his perspective.... but is also quite nuts. So his exact words were "So we have all these machines that burn fossil fuel, we can just replace them with machines that use electricity" .... Um.... Ok, we live in the real world. All of the infrustructure our lives depend on, shipping, planes, trains, trucking, farm machinery .... EVERYTHING that provides our way of life "can just be made electric". It amazes me how some of the smartest most intelligent people can also be unbelievably dumb.

seeya
Shane L.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Achievable dependent on time frame, is dependent and what they consider "net zero" to be today. Its like the carbon scheme ... all fancy and amazing, but a load of merde. They were "planting" pre-existing forests, not clearing land that was already not to be cleared, planting trees where they would never grow. As soon as you ever take a glimse into these types of schemes, its just smoke and mirrors.

How many billions/trillions will we need to spend on massive fire prone batteries .... how many new mines will we need to dig for the copper and nickel ... and lithium... and everything. To meet any of the nonsense targets currently being planned across the world. By 2050 we will need more copper than has ever been mined by man throughout all of recorded history.... to come even remotely close to these insane (absolutely nuts) targets. Do you know how hard it is to start new mines anywhere in the world that isn't a 3rd world country? You really think these is even remotely likely, even it the biggest wet dream a greeny will ever have [bighmmm]

its all nuts .... impossible.... lunacy... there is no other way can it possibly be described. Sam griffin maybe 100% right from his perspective.... but is also quite nuts. So his exact words were "So we have all these machines that burn fossil fuel, we can just replace them with machines that use electricity" .... Um.... Ok, we live in the real world. All of the infrustructure our lives depend on, shipping, planes, trains, trucking, farm machinery .... EVERYTHING that provides our way of life "can just be made electric". It amazes me how some of the smartest most intelligent people can also be unbelievably dumb.

seeya
Shane L.
Perhaps watch some of the long form videos.

It's not mad, but it's also why it's important to start. Your influencer is trying to make it all seem too hard. All problems no plan. Hopefully we all just say "screw it let's just keep doing what we're doing".

If we never start, we're never going to get there. Every time we allow someone to put in a gas heater at home, or gas oven, then the emissions from that are baked in for another xx years until they are replaced. With cars, every new ICE car that we put on the roads.. that's it.. it's going to keep using that amount of fuel until it gets retired. I keep saying don't worry about people with whacky needs - just electrify the easy ones. Lets get that done. So, many of the schemes you see now are to encourage people to make good choices. I'm not saying there aren't problems.

People like Saul are genuinely smart people. They've thought about it and come up with a plan. And they care.

There are just so many vested interests trying to stop progress, and the "centre for independent studies" is an excellent example of the forces working against getting there.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Ok more on the "Centre for Independent Studies". Which is known to have one of it's primary backers as being BHP, Australias largest coal miner.

Here we have Aidan Morrison telling the people on Sky News that we've got too many renewables already, and the renewables honeymoon is over. He's saying we've got too many renewables and it's going to push power up. He claims there is nowhere that you could possibly build more hydro (the only renewables they like) unless you damed the Franklin which is really beautiful!. Ooops.. he completely fails to mention the whole concept of pumped hydro. Never mind that we have lots of potential sites that aren't the franklin. This has been known for a long time.

https://arena.gov.au/assets/2018/10/ANU-STORES-An-Atlas-of-Pumped-Hydro-Energy-Storage-The-Complete-Atlas.pdf

Oh and a coal power station in Gladstone is being shut down, and it's all a big mistake and Rio are just trying to get maximum renewable subsidies out of the government to do it, and it was all set up by the previous labor government. And he thinks it won't actually happen so they will just keep running the coal power station and getting paid renewable money from the suckers that are the labour government tying to pursue their folly of net zero.

So, what have we got here. We have the "Centre for Independent studies" who we know is controlled by the LNP and funded by BHP. What points have the got in.

1. The renewables Honeymoon is over and if we add more the grid will get more unstable and power will get more expensive.
2. There is no way to avoid this. Vague assertions that it has failed everywhere else in the world.
3. The opposition (Rio) are making a motza off public money thanks to the gullible labor government.

Bravo .. well done you've earned your pay this week! Big TICK!

So what do we know about Aidan Morrison. He must be an expert in the field right? He is their "director of energy research". He must be qualified and experienced in the field?? He was one of the people who contributed to the earlier video.

Well he's got a degree which is good I suppose but not that uncommon these days. A Bachelors in Theoretical maths and Physics. Meh. He ran a bar and cafe between 2013 and 2021. Then he got a job as data scientist and analyst until he started work for the CIS at the end of 2023.

Personally I'm not inclined to think that he's at all qualified to be an "expert" advisor in the renewable energy field.

Personally it makes me really sad that vested interests are able to control and influence our media. And that people believe them. Hook line and sinker. Shame Australia, shame.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidan-morrison-23340128/


https://youtu.be/6I31PmUVcjk?si=4-E7TWbp5cj6gjwt

[DoubleChevron]

Perhaps watch some of the long form videos.

It's not mad, but it's also why it's important to start. Your influencer is trying to make it all seem too hard. All problems no plan. Hopefully we all just say "screw it let's just keep doing what we're doing".

If we never start, we're never going to get there. Every time we allow someone to put in a gas heater at home, or gas oven, then the emissions from that are baked in for another xx years until they are replaced. With cars, every new ICE car that we put on the roads.. that's it.. it's going to keep using that amount of fuel until it gets retired. I keep saying don't worry about people with whacky needs - just electrify the easy ones. Lets get that done. So, many of the schemes you see now are to encourage people to make good choices. I'm not saying there aren't problems.

People like Saul are genuinely smart people. They've thought about it and come up with a plan. And they care.

There are just so many vested interests trying to stop progress, and the "centre for independent studies" is an excellent example of the forces working against getting there.
You see I prefer common sense. In theory (isn't theory always great). we "may" be able to do "something". the problem the "something" we do will bankrupt the next generation or two of australia while creating the most expensive power we have ever seen in Australia.... At the same time building power generation that will probably barely last a decade (maybe two) before it all needs replacing. Again, at massive, staggering stupid costs. Who do you think will pay for all of this? Us and our childen and grand children will be.... The degredation of our childrens lifestyle from the flow on effect of expensive power (so no local industy) will be just incredible. We can't survive by just making each other coffees.

I prefer the insinuations that anyone that doesn't agree with you is "trying to stop progress" rather than saying they are stupid and personally attacking them.

I would call this stupid:

Gifting away our natural resources for bargain basement prices without doing anything with them ourselves
Refusing to use our natural resources (gas, oil, coal, uranium etc) ... to build any industry or provide cheap power..... "because burning it is bad". What in the hell do you think the countries we are selling it to are doing with it? They are creating cheap power so they can build all the stuff our industry used to build
Even if every target is met by this net zero nonsense. The overall affect to the planet with regards to pollution and heating would be so incredibly minor ... so tiny it would not even be record-able in any way. simply because australia generates next to none of the pollution on a world wide scale. The greenies love to twist this by claiming pollution output per person. Much more sensible would be by land mass as a whole. as our infrastructure has to cover such a huge area.


So an overall summary would be we wish to build expensive throw away unreliable Chinese manufactured power generation at immense cost ... that will cripple our power system with unreliable "intermittent" power... that has a tiny lifespan, is horrendously expensive to upkeep and maintain while at the same time doing absolutely nothing for the environment.

They call us "the smart country".

[Captain_Rightfoot]

You see I prefer common sense. In theory (isn't theory always great). we "may" be able to do "something". the problem the "something" we do will bankrupt the next generation or two of australia while creating the most expensive power we have ever seen in Australia.... At the same time building power generation that will probably barely last a decade (maybe two) before it all needs replacing. Again, at massive, staggering stupid costs. Who do you think will pay for all of this? Us and our childen and grand children will be.... The degredation of our childrens lifestyle from the flow on effect of expensive power (so no local industy) will be just incredible. We can't survive by just making each other coffees.

I prefer the insinuations that anyone that doesn't agree with you is "trying to stop progress" rather than saying they are stupid and personally attacking them.

I would call this stupid:

Gifting away our natural resources for bargain basement prices without doing anything with them ourselves
Refusing to use our natural resources (gas, oil, coal, uranium etc) ... to build any industry or provide cheap power..... "because burning it is bad". What in the hell do you think the countries we are selling it to are doing with it? They are creating cheap power so they can build all the stuff our industry used to build
Even if every target is met by this net zero nonsense. The overall affect to the planet with regards to pollution and heating would be so incredibly minor ... so tiny it would not even be record-able in any way. simply because australia generates next to none of the pollution on a world wide scale. The greenies love to twist this by claiming pollution output per person. Much more sensible would be by land mass as a whole. as our infrastructure has to cover such a huge area.


So an overall summary would be we wish to build expensive throw away unreliable Chinese manufactured power generation at immense cost ... that will cripple our power system with unreliable "intermittent" power... that has a tiny lifespan, is horrendously expensive to upkeep and maintain while at the same time doing absolutely nothing for the environment.

They call us "the smart country".
Sky talking points. TICK

[DoubleChevron]

Sky talking points. TICK

Really? Do you have any links? I'd love to hear some common sense from someone rather than the propaganda everywhere. I figure net zero is like a cult or religion. You have to throw away every ounce of common sense when you join up :) Seriously... Where is the article speaking common sense like this, Iwant to read them [bigrolf]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Really? Do you have any links? I'd love to hear some common sense from someone rather than the propaganda everywhere. I figure net zero is like a cult or religion. You have to throw away every ounce of common sense when you join up :) Seriously... Where is the article speaking common sense like this, Iwant to read them [bigrolf]

Where to start. I would start with Saul's book which I mentioned above. If you don't want to read a book, tell me which form you'd like it in? I concede it's difficult sorting this stuff out and knowing who you should listen to on topics like this. It's not our job to be experts in everything. It's hard to be informed in all things. We have limited time and resources. And who is to say we don't get it wrong sometimes no matter how hard we try to be objective.

If you want a video/podcast I'll see if I can find a good interview with Saul. If you want more information on general climate matters, Climate Adam on YT is a good start but there are soo soo many.

The big thing is if you're going to listen to someone find out who they are, what their experience is, and find out why they are spending their time talking about it. Until you've done this I wouldn't take anything they say too seriously. It doesn't automatically mean they are wrong but needs to go in the "unverified" pile

So I asked a mate of mine about CIS advising on this stuff. He is an academic who currently works in the field in power modelling. His take..


Someone from the CIS is arguing about wind capacity factors? Needs to be taken with an Uluṟu sized grain of salt. ? the thing is, if he has issues with the GenCost modelling or AEMO’s use of it, there’s a public process to make submissions and they do respond. Making a YouTube video is just trying to inject FUD.

So if you take one thing out of this, a talking head on sky who's from an independent opaquely funded organisation, with no experience or qualifications about which they are talking.. or who makes youtube videos and is passably pretty and pleasant to listen to... that's not the place to get your information.

I only just contacted my mate about this and i'd come to my conclusions about the CIS all on my own. So I'll take a pass mark on vetting. [thumbsupbig]

[RANDLOVER]

One can even get Saul's book on audio, if reading makes one's head hurt.

The trouble with the media is either they naively believe in showing both points of view in the interests of being fair and balanced, or like to court controversy to make things interesting, or click bait. Whereas what they are really reporting on climate science is not a 50:50 ratio but rather thousands to one.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

One can even get Saul's book on audio, if reading makes one's head hurt.

The trouble with the media is either they naively believe in showing both points of view in the interests of being fair and balanced, or like to court controversy to make things interesting, or click bait. Whereas what they are really reporting on climate science is not a 50:50 ratio but rather thousands to one.

I do feel for people. They should be able to trust the media. But the lines between a paid political add (CIS) and news is becoming imperceptible. People shouldn't have to do an analysis of everything they consume. Its just too time consuming, and even with the best intentions you can still get done.

I just heard that the report that the Nationals used to justify dumping net zero accounted in detail for the renewable side of the equation for every expense of building as well as network upgrades that would be required for the grid going forward. It turns out that version one of their report included the cost of building and modernising the coal plants that would also be required, but the version 2 which they used to support their position only included a token amount for maintenance of existing plants, and completely left out the building of new plants. They also excluded grid upgrades that would be required, which AEMO said would also be required for coal powered stations. Ooopsie.

There are so many "facts" and half truths in this. People shouldn't be required to fact check everything. It makes me sad.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

This video has a more educated discussion of grid stability with renewables, and how the grid operator AEMO is dealing with it. Written and presented by an engineer who has worked in the field for her whole career and now consults in it. Also an interesting take that negative power during the day is because the coal stations can't scale back. [bigwhistle]

https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosemarybarnes/


https://youtu.be/qavFbOpt4jA?si=fUZL_ZE74qP9te4D

[DoubleChevron]

What have you done .... You have destroyed my youtube algorithm. rather than getting endless classic/old car videos recommended to me ... I get this ... Who the hell is topher field?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pvm7KctLCA


This is the exact thing you are referencing isn't it? The ABC outright lied in there news reporting about there research. The great propanda machine never looses.

[DoubleChevron]

This video has a more educated discussion of grid stability with renewables, and how the grid operator AEMO is dealing with it. Written and presented by an engineer who has worked in the field for her whole career and now consults in it. Also an interesting take that negative power during the day is because the coal stations can't scale back. [bigwhistle]

https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosemarybarnes/


https://youtu.be/qavFbOpt4jA?si=fUZL_ZE74qP9te4D

I have no doubt. If we spend enough anything can be done .... how many billions .... trillions ... are we talking??? They will probably be talking running huge, massive synchroness generators. Are we going to bankrupt .... 1 ... 2 ... maybe 4 generations of australians trying to do this stupidity?

Let me guess, re-wire the entire coutnry (yeah right) and billions of dollars of fire prone batteries.

I've never looked into the syncrhoness generators .... Do we actually have to use the intermittant power we have managed to generate ... to turn them .... so even use the limited amount of power generated to turn big generators to try and stablise the grid.

Its just all insane .... crazy ....

[Tins]

What have you done .... You have destroyed my youtube algorithm. rather than getting endless classic/old car videos recommended to me ... I get this ... Who the hell is topher field?



Topher has been around a long time. I first came across him during the Melbourne Water "Crisis". Remember the Wonthaggi White Elephant and stealing water from the Goulburn river irrigation system? Another great scare campaign. It was hilarious when Premier Dan ordered the WWE turned on, and it didn't work. Hilarious, until you remember we are STILL paying for it. See any similarities? Topher does.

[Tins]

.

I've never looked into the syncrhoness generators .... Do we actually have to use the intermittant power we have managed to generate ... to turn them .... so even use the limited amount of power generated to turn big generators to try and stablise the grid.



Pretty sure it's the other way around. The intermittents cannot join the grid unless the synchronous gens are already providing 50 Hz. This was very clearly demonstrates when Adelaide's grid went down, an event many people conveniently overlook.

[NavyDiver]

I do feel for people. They should be able to trust the media. But the lines between a paid political add (CIS) and news is becoming imperceptible. People shouldn't have to do an analysis of everything they consume. Its just too time consuming, and even with the best intentions you can still get done.

I just heard that the report that the Nationals used to justify dumping net zero accounted in detail for the renewable side of the equation for every expense of building as well as network upgrades that would be required for the grid going forward. It turns out that version one of their report included the cost of building and modernising the coal plants that would also be required, but the version 2 which they used to support their position only included a token amount for maintenance of existing plants, and completely left out the building of new plants. They also excluded grid upgrades that would be required, which AEMO said would also be required for coal powered stations. Ooopsie.

There are so many "facts" and half truths in this. People shouldn't be required to fact check everything. It makes me sad.

I did chuckle at the BBC Walk the plank using an edited Video. I doubt it was a deliberate lie, yet fact checking is required. "The BBC’s director-general and its chief executive of news have resigned"

It is true we sell our gas O.S. for peanuts and pay a motza for it. [bighmmm][bighmmm][bighmmm]

[Tins]

Ah, we have the opinion of ONE engineer. Is there any balance in her vid? And as for the AEMO, they are the poor mob tasked with making these political pipe dreams actually work, and it's a very thankless task indeed, which is why the real engineers have left. Ideology is not engineering, just as it isn't science, as witnessed by the decline of the CSIRO. Yes, I know good people still work there, but they are not at the top.

[DoubleChevron]

Ah, we have the opinion of ONE engineer. Is there any balance in her vid? And as for the AEMO, they are the poor mob tasked with making these political pipe dreams actually work, and it's a very thankless task indeed, which is why the real engineers have left. Ideology is not engineering, just as it isn't science, as witnessed by the decline of the CSIRO. Yes, I know good people still work there, but they are not at the top.

I haven't watched the video. But I do believe most things are possible in theory where you have incredibly intelligent people working on the issues. The issue in this case, is resource availability, timelines and cost (most importantly cost).

Another problem is theory is often almost impossible to put into practice.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Ah, we have the opinion of ONE engineer. Is there any balance in her vid? And as for the AEMO, they are the poor mob tasked with making these political pipe dreams actually work, and it's a very thankless task indeed, which is why the real engineers have left. Ideology is not engineering, just as it isn't science, as witnessed by the decline of the CSIRO. Yes, I know good people still work there, but they are not at the top.

What do you do. The video is produced by an engineer who has worked in the field her whole career and now consults in it as well as producing content. I suspect if she destroys her reputation she's on tough times.

The video presented earlier here which I suggested was rubbish is presented by a lady who is only been working for five years and never in the field, nor does she have any qualifications. She also proudly boasts she's passion about nuclear energy. I suppose everyone needs a hobby. Of the other contributors - Jae Lubberink, Michael Wu and Aidan Morrison, none of them have any qualifications or have worked in the field either. Plus they all work for a opaque institute that refuses to disclose their backers.

I dunno .. if you think would like to take your information from that crew.. I just can't help you. Sorry.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I haven't watched the video. But I do believe most things are possible in theory where you have incredibly intelligent people working on the issues. The issue in this case, is resource availability, timelines and cost (most importantly cost).

Another problem is theory is often almost impossible to put into practice.

I can't argue with anything you've said there.

Sometimes I think people can be too fixated on the problems. You actually need people to focus on finding solutions.

It's like my driver trainer. Don't look at what you don't want to hit. Focus on the gap. If you look at the tree you will hit the tree. Australians have a history of coming up with innovative solutions.

[DoubleChevron]

Pretty sure it's the other way around. The intermittents cannot join the grid unless the synchronous gens are already providing 50 Hz. This was very clearly demonstrates when Adelaide's grid went down, an event many people conveniently overlook.

Yes, but what poweres the synchronous generators. Please don't tell me we aren't using the massively expensive ... crazy renewables to turn these. That means, not only do we have intermittent power (often when we don't want it), but we have to waste the power that is generated, turning big generators ... so the entire system doesn't fall over flat on its face.

Am I the only one that can see how insane this is? Where has everyones common sense gone [bighmmm]

What if there is an outage .... how do we start from cold. If there is no power to turn the synchronous generators .... how do we kick start the renewable stupidity so it can connect to the grid ........ If someone as dumb as me can immediatly spot these very obvious issues ... why can't the nutters trying to con us into wasting billions of $$$ on it.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Yes, but what poweres the synchronous generators. Please don't tell me we aren't using the massively expensive ... crazy renewables to turn these. That means, not only do we have intermittent power (often when we don't want it), but we have to waste the power that is generated, turning big generators ... so the entire system doesn't fall over flat on its face.

Am I the only one that can see how insane this is? Where has everyones common sense gone [bighmmm]

What if there is an outage .... how do we start from cold. If there is no power to turn the synchronous generators .... how do we kick start the renewable stupidity so it can connect to the grid ........ If someone as dumb as me can immediatly spot these very obvious issues ... why can't the nutters trying to con us into wasting billions of $$$ on it.

Again.. you're looking at the tree.

I trust that there are people who are clever, and have thought about this. We are all paying these people to ensure grid stability now.

You'll remember I stated that they think that even if we stay with coal we will still have to undertake substantial grid stability work. I don't know if you know - but Australia's population growth has been nearly half a million people a year for the last few years. Not that anyone has asked anyone but here we are. Even if we stay on coal we're going to need to build some very expensive coal stations. Also, we now have a lot more things to power now.

Change is inevitable. There will be no one correct answer. Everything is going to be needed.

[DoubleChevron]

Again.. you're looking at the tree.

I trust that there are people who are clever, and have thought about this. We are all paying these people to ensure grid stability now.

You'll remember I stated that they think that even if we stay with coal we will still have to undertake substantial grid stability work. I don't know if you know - but Australia's population growth has been nearly half a million people a year for the last few years. Not that anyone has asked anyone but here we are. Even if we stay on coal we're going to need to build some very expensive coal stations. Also, we now have a lot more things to power now.

Change is inevitable. There will be no one correct answer. Everything is going to be needed.

We need some big cheap generators that match the coal power stations output and stability that will last the next generation or two ... Given the way technology is moving, this gives a good buffer to wait for anything that will appear over the next 20years. solar and wind is stupidity for anything other than a small percentage of power. Who know, we might end up with modern small nuclear power plants...

what we are trying to do is an absolute failure across the entire world, so why do want to replicate horrendously expensive failure ??

[Saitch]

so why do want to replicate horrendously expensive failure ??

I'm sure with certain types of people, it's all about the Dopamine. With certain others, it's all about politics and a few others, a strong and unwavering belief in ideals. Nowt wrong with the latter, mind.

[Tombie]

Earth just dodged a bullet! An Earth facing X1.7 Solar flair released a coronal mass ejection (CME), that would have hit the Earth in around 3 days time, was caught by a plasma filament, off to the left of the flair, which dragged the CME back down to the Sun's surface. With the Earth's weakening magnetic field ongoing atm, our electric and electronic way of life could suffer a lot from a big enough hit from the Sun ... for now, our way of life goes on [emoji3508][emoji290]

https://youtu.be/zWAULtxz424?si=G-2Ml3qlKSOrw9dH

When one does hit us this will prove interesting!

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I thank those here for encouraging me to look into this further. [bigwhistle]

So it turns out the nationals have been playing funny figures to justify their position.

Now it turns out.. the people who actually prepared the report have spoken out saying the actual cost of net zero was misrepresented by a factor of 30 by the Nationals.

As I've mentioned previously - people who work in these fields can't afford to be caught lying by people who know stuff and can have a good look.

Just a moment... (https://reneweconomy.com.au/300-billion-not-9-trillion-net-zero-report-authors-put-record-straight-after-nationals-inflate-costs-30-fold/)


“Different individuals and groups have been misrepresenting key cost estimates from the NZAu Australia Project as ‘the cost of Australia reaching net zero’,” the authors, representing the University of Melbourne, the University of Queensland and Princeton University said in a statement.” These misrepresented costs have typically ranged from $1.5 trillion to $9 trillion. The Steering Committee of the NZAu Project team is releasing this Statement to again clarify our findings on this matter.”

They say that the most up to date report makes this clear.

“Using the total costs of achieving net zero by 2050 … relative to the total costs of continuing to maintain the energy system without targeting any decarbonisation, slide 41 of this Report finds that ‘the cost of Australia reaching net zero’ is approximately $300 billion, with all annualised energy costs falling as a fraction of the projected GDP and discounting reducing all these costs further.”

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I don't often go to this site, but it's excellent and I'm glad when I do.

So they had a bit of a background on my Centre for Independent Studies which I'd managed to determine was a disinformation pump. This article from 2024 mentions that they were actively set up to promote nuclear and attack renewables and grid stability.

So my noting that none of the people who work there had ever worked in the industry, or had any qualifications in it was spot on. They were employed to pump the plausible disinformation. So when our Policy Officer headpiece says she's "passionate about nuclear" .. I guess whatever you need to say to get the job. As plausible disinformation is her career - she's got nothing to loose by publishing this stuff. In fact it will probably help her in the future. I hope she can sleep at night as she ages.

Just a moment... (https://reneweconomy.com.au/the-network-of-conservative-think-tanks-out-to-kill-the-switch-to-renewables/)



Like the IPA, the Centre for Independent Studies has strong links with the Coalition parties – promoting the works of Coalition MPs, and several of the group’s ‘alumni’ going on to serve as Liberal Party MPs or candidates.

The group recently launched a new campaign to promote nuclear energy (https://www.cis.org.au/commentary/video/more-misinformation-from-csiro-on-nuclear-copy/) and to actively attack the efforts of energy market regulators and institutions, including the Australian Energy Market Operator and the CSIRO, to plan the transition to renewables.

[350RRC]

Pretty sure it's the other way around. The intermittents cannot join the grid unless the synchronous gens are already providing 50 Hz. This was very clearly demonstrates when Adelaide's grid went down, an event many people conveniently overlook.

2016? 2017?

It's all here John.

2016 South Australian blackout - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Australian_blackout)

cheers, DL

[DoubleChevron]

I don't often go to this site, but it's excellent and I'm glad when I do.

So they had a bit of a background on my Centre for Independent Studies which I'd managed to determine was a disinformation pump. This article from 2024 mentions that they were actively set up to promote nuclear and attack renewables and grid stability.

So my noting that none of the people who work there had ever worked in the industry, or had any qualifications in it was spot on. They were employed to pump the plausible disinformation. So when our Policy Officer headpiece says she's "passionate about nuclear" .. I guess whatever you need to say to get the job. As plausible disinformation is her career - she's got nothing to loose by publishing this stuff. In fact it will probably help her in the future. I hope she can sleep at night as she ages.

Just a moment... (https://reneweconomy.com.au/the-network-of-conservative-think-tanks-out-to-kill-the-switch-to-renewables/)

Where did the 9trillion come from? Over 25years it given the sheer amount already spent, it sounds almost reasonable [bighmmm] Note: the dont reference the report.

Why not reference the report if it doesn't say 9trillion in it?

The fact you have linked a website called "https://reneweconomy.com.au/" ... So will certainly not have vested interests in renewable energy.

You have to love these types of "facts". You know, I bet if you look at the report, both the reported amounts are correct dependant on which side of the fence you wish to sit on.

With every single scheme where they calculate the cost, I'll increase it 100 fold. They can't even build a simple road without the costs blowing up by many multiples of the planned amounts. And that is just a simple road where we know exactly what needs to be done to achieve the "road" as we have been bulding them for over 100years.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Where did the 9trillion come from? Over 25years it given the sheer amount already spent, it sounds almost reasonable Note: the dont reference the report.

Why not reference the report if it doesn't say 9trillion in it?

The fact you have linked a website called "https://reneweconomy.com.au/" ... So will certainly not have vested interests in renewable energy.

You have to love these types of "facts". You know, I bet if you look at the report, both the reported amounts are correct dependant on which side of the fence you wish to sit on.

With every single scheme where they calculate the cost, I'll increase it 100 fold. They can't even build a simple road without the costs blowing up by many multiples of the planned amounts. And that is just a simple road where we know exactly what needs to be done to achieve the "road" as we have been bulding them for over 100years.

I've got to leave some fun for you too!

Unlike your sites, renew economy has a solid reputation for being factual.

The guardian also covered it. It doesn't surprise me that sky didn't cover the academics saying "that's not what we actually said"

Academics say their net zero costing is being ‘misrepresented’ after Nationals repeat $9tn claim | National party | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/nov/05/academics-criticise-misrepresented-costing-of-net-zero-after-nationals-repeat-9tn-claim)

Here is where they said it would cost 9 trillion.

Error Page (https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/national-party-votes-to-abandon-net-zero-by-2050-target-sparking-potential-clash-with-liberal-party-over-coalition-agreement/news-story/cebd925638bf2e9bf7f080d36a6810eb)



"I challenge the Prime Minister to have that conversation without the puerile arguments and to actually look at the numbers," he said. He referenced a 40 per cent increase in electricity prices since the 2050 target was agreed to, and [B]claimed achieving net zero could cost $9 trillion by 2050.
"We're not denying the science of climate change. What we're saying is there's a better, cheaper, fairer way to address it," Mr Littleproud said.

[RANDLOVER]

Pretty sure it's the other way around. The intermittents cannot join the grid unless the synchronous gens are already providing 50 Hz. This was very clearly demonstrates when Adelaide's grid went down, an event many people conveniently overlook.


2016? 2017?

It's all here John.

2016 South Australian blackout - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Australian_blackout)

cheers, DL

As someone who has worked in this field for over 30 years, no generator be it wind, solar, diesel, gas, coal, etc can join the grid unless it is at 50Hz and in sync with the grid.

To clear up another misconception in this thread a synchronous generator in this context is driven mechanically, it doesn't act as a motor and get driven electrically, if it did it would trip out on "reverse power".

[Tins]

As someone who has worked in this field for over 30 years, no generator be it wind, solar, diesel, gas, coal, etc can join the grid unless it is at 50Hz and in sync with the grid.

To clear up another misconception in this thread a synchronous generator in this context is driven mechanically, it doesn't act as a motor and get driven electrically, if it did it would trip out on "reverse power".
It has always been my belief that solar and wind cannot produce 50Hz without the regulation of the mechanical generation, whatever the source. Something that the big coal, gas and hydo have no problem with. Is that wrong?

[Tins]

2016? 2017?

It's all here John.

2016 South Australian blackout - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Australian_blackout)

cheers, DL
Not sure if Wiki is a source to be trusted when any kind of politics is involved. It is so easily manipulated by bad actors. Even the top people at Wiki have admitted that, mainly due to Musk entering the conversation with Grokipedia. Personally I prefer the actual source, not something that is used for the purposes of propaganda. There is a huge body of evidence that this happens with Wiki
Not saying that the article you linked is of that kind, but I am suspicious.

[DoubleChevron]

I've got to leave some fun for you too!

Unlike your sites, renew economy has a solid reputation for being factual.

The guardian also covered it. It doesn't surprise me that sky didn't cover the academics saying "that's not what we actually said"

Academics say their net zero costing is being ‘misrepresented’ after Nationals repeat $9tn claim | National party | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/nov/05/academics-criticise-misrepresented-costing-of-net-zero-after-nationals-repeat-9tn-claim)

Here is where they said it would cost 9 trillion.

Error Page (https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/national-party-votes-to-abandon-net-zero-by-2050-target-sparking-potential-clash-with-liberal-party-over-coalition-agreement/news-story/cebd925638bf2e9bf7f080d36a6810eb)

Where is the link to the report? I don't believe 9trillion has been pulled out of thin air. They have got this value from somewhere.

[Tins]

I don't often go to this site, but it's excellent and I'm glad when I do.

So they had a bit of a background on my Centre for Independent Studies which I'd managed to determine was a disinformation pump. This article from 2024 mentions that they were actively set up to promote nuclear and attack renewables and grid stability.

So my noting that none of the people who work there had ever worked in the industry, or had any qualifications in it was spot on. They were employed to pump the plausible disinformation. So when our Policy Officer headpiece says she's "passionate about nuclear" .. I guess whatever you need to say to get the job. As plausible disinformation is her career - she's got nothing to loose by publishing this stuff. In fact it will probably help her in the future. I hope she can sleep at night as she ages.

Just a moment... (https://reneweconomy.com.au/the-network-of-conservative-think-tanks-out-to-kill-the-switch-to-renewables/)
So, once again you choose to smear those who are not in your team, as do Renew, who have a great deal of form for this. What is wrong with a group who align with the Coalition? Are they now the evil ones and teams Red and Green are angels? Must be nice to have such a simplistic view of the world.

[RANDLOVER]

It has always been my belief that solar and wind cannot produce 50Hz without the regulation of the mechanical generation, whatever the source. Something that the big coal, gas and hydo have no problem with. Is that wrong?

All generators have frequency control in solar and wind it is via an inverter, in diesel, steam and hydro, it is a speed controller or governor, which adjusts the fuel, steam or water supply according to the load.They all get the 50 Hz baseline signal from the grid.

[RANDLOVER]

Not sure if Wiki is a source to be trusted when any kind of politics is involved. It is so easily manipulated by bad actors. Even the top people at Wiki have admitted that, mainly due to Musk entering the conversation with Grokipedia. Personally I prefer the actual source, not something that is used for the purposes of propaganda. There is a huge body of evidence that this happens with Wiki
Not saying that the article you linked is of that kind, but I am suspicious.

From my experience their report sounds kosher, nothing aggregious in there. AFAIK Wiki relies on vetted people as authours and doesn't allow AI models to feed straight into it.

[Tombie]

Couple of mates in SAPN confirmed that it’s pretty much on the money on this topic.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Where is the link to the report? I don't believe 9trillion has been pulled out of thin air. They have got this value from somewhere.
I'm sorry the forum is changing the name of the links. If you click on the link that says "error page" that takes you to the sky news with the trillion dollar figure. There is no way I can post the link without it displaying as "error page"

Error Page (https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/national-party-votes-to-abandon-net-zero-by-2050-target-sparking-potential-clash-with-liberal-party-over-coalition-agreement/news-story/cebd925638bf2e9bf7f080d36a6810eb)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So, once again you choose to smear those who are not in your team, as do Renew, who have a great deal of form for this. What is wrong with a group who align with the Coalition? Are they now the evil ones and teams Red and Green are angels? Must be nice to have such a simplistic view of the world.

Nope, I'm cool with whoever if they follow the science and logic. It's when they diverge from this that I take exception.

[DoubleChevron]

I'm sorry the forum is changing the name of the links. If you click on the link that says "error page" that takes you to the sky news with the trillion dollar figure. There is no way I can post the link without it displaying as "error page"

Error Page (https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/national-party-votes-to-abandon-net-zero-by-2050-target-sparking-potential-clash-with-liberal-party-over-coalition-agreement/news-story/cebd925638bf2e9bf7f080d36a6810eb)

No, the actual report you are all talking about. I bet it says 9trillion in that report somewhere..... We have just spent 1 billion dollars on a stupid battery that doesn't work, has a very limited lifespan.... looks utterly dangerous from a fire perspective (why isn't each battery module seperated by earthen firewill, that can be flooded)... Just nuts, if one torches off, it'll torch off all the others. What will it last ... 5 -> 10years? Will we wait a quater of that time just for some new chinese transformers that will probably die as well?? The sheer insanity of this green crap just defies belief.

So it will run a bit of the local city for 25minutes .... what a pathetic waste. 25minutes is just nothing if there is an outage for any reason.

Imagine the infrustructure we could have upgraded that would last generations for one billion $$$.

[Tins]

From my experience their report sounds kosher, nothing aggregious in there. AFAIK Wiki relies on vetted people as authours and doesn't allow AI models to feed straight into it.
Err, anyone can edit a Wiki page, unless it’s a protected page. But then all that’s required is to “suggest “ an edit to the page “moderators”, and just who are they in this case?
Your definition of egregious may well differ from mine. All I know is that Wikipedia has become highly politicised , as the founder openly admits. So forgive me if I don’t trust it.

[Tins]

So it will run a bit of the local city for 25minutes .... what a pathetic waste. 25minutes is just nothing if there is an outage for any reason.

Imagine the infrustructure we could have upgraded that would last generations for one billion $$$.
As Adelaide discovered, a backup system is only any use if it works. And 25 minutes is not very long, especially if you are on an operating table and the emergency generator doesn’t start. A total grid failure in Melbourne would kill people. All for a vanity project.

[DoubleChevron]

As Adelaide discovered, a backup system is only any use if it works. And 25 minutes is not very long, especially if you are on an operating table and the emergency generator doesn’t start. A total grid failure in Melbourne would kill people. All for a vanity project.

I'm trying not to be to negative. I can understand why they want big batteries around the place. They should not be mentioning how long it can supply power for, as this most likely isn't the reason they have installed a battery. It will be installed as the infrastructure cannot handle peak power requirements at specific times of day, and they have worked out ""xxx million"" to upgrade the power transmission lines, or ""xx million"" to install a battery that can handle the peak power requirements that may only happen for a 1 hour period of the day.

Its really hard not to be negative when you see the utter stupidity they continue with though :(

[Tins]

I don’t see negativity. I see someone standing up for what he believes.

[RANDLOVER]

As Adelaide discovered, a backup system is only any use if it works. And 25 minutes is not very long, especially if you are on an operating table and the emergency generator doesn’t start. A total grid failure in Melbourne would kill people. All for a vanity project.


Hate to say it but I've seen this happen, a black out at a hospital due to failed electrical systems, no deaths though as heart lung machines have hand cranks.

Also critical equipment is fed via a UPS which should carry the load until the generator comes online, Generators and UPS's are usually assigned on a n+1 basis, so at least one spare.

[austastar]

In a hospital not so far away, the emergency Genny supply would cut in very quickly, and was tested monthly, without fail. Part of Standing Orders, so to speak.
So when hit with a major outage; no dramas, - until there were.
Refuelling the large storage tank was then added to said Standing Orders.
Cheers

[RANDLOVER]

In my experience fuel problems with generators are a lot more common than people would think.

[Tins]

The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.. Robert Burns.

As true now as it was in 1785 when he wrote "To a Mouse".

Or, as a certain person generally referred to as "Murphy" might have called law, the firs thing to fail in any circumstances is the failsafe system. Anyone who believes that engineers always get it right has forgotten about Boeing. Or SpaceX for that matter, although their approach is more "suck it and see".

[NavyDiver]

In my experience fuel problems with generators are a lot more common than people would think.

Helping with the clean up after Black Saturday bush fires just over 10 years ago was the catalyst for me buying my first Disco. One of very few survivors on a road we helped had a Disco. He also had a large generator and electric water pumps, sprinklers and was able to save almost everything at his farm. His Gen set was a huge ex Telstra one I think. He was an engineer, it showed. Many people who had fire pumps that would not start did not have the same outcome.

On a funny example I think I have mentioned the huge UPS for all Victorian Pokies taken down by a sparky cutting a wire well outside the supposedly protected circuits [biggrin][biggrin]


I still fall back on the maintenance required for my Disco compared to my current drive. Well over 2000 widgets in my Disco. Petrol and diesel Fire pumps (or gensets) need significant care.

The current news power prices have increased 23% impacting in the inflation rate recently is a bit of a funny thing as well. The Energy subsidy was paid for by taxpayers- not really free.


This month my solar or free power time has misfired only on the 1st of Nov. I accidently imported 15kWh from 1am to 3am @$0.08c Per kwh. It's so close to zero since then

Trying hard not to export power I have possibly $4.40 owed to me by spilling out
440.4Total
kWh



So far, the cost or investment I made of about $8000 is looking pretty rewarding. Prefer long term results of course. The amazing Engineer I met from Growatt a few weeks ago promised a change in running their inverters in parallel. I used to do for my business back up with two Victron systems. IF/When that occurs, I will modify and improve the back up to everything here. NOTE the feed in game is NOT rewarding unless you're in a VPP or similar time play company.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So after all my comments about vetting who you listen to very carefully. Here is a video from an anonymous internet commentator. None the less I thought I'd post it in here because I know you'll all love it. [thumbsupbig]

I've been following this guy for a while. interesting thoughts. And the one I got from this video was I'd never heard of the term "Flood the Zone". But it's a thing. It's a tactic where politicians just unleash a fire hose of falsehoods, and by the time people have fact checked it everyone has moved on. Just say it is so. It's something that I've been noting for a while. How do these people get away with it? It appears to be a Trump inspired tactic.

The recent nats thing where they misrepresented the costs of renewables is a great example. By the time the academics whose report they used popped their head above the pulpit and said "Uhh.. no that's not what we said" the world had moved on and politicians are experts at never admitting their lies.

I expect you will all refuse to accept these "facts".

I do agree though the firehose of FUD is a real issue for the transition. The new LNP government has be cancelling anything to do with renewables that they could still cancel. I guess the plan is to make people afraid to invest in anything and hand it all back to the government.

And no.. we are still waiting for what the answers are as to what the new plan is. But I guess we've moved on.

LNP scraps north Queensland pumped hydro energy storage project but residents''' concerns remain - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-02/lnp-scraps-pioneer-burdekin-pumped-hydro/104550864)



https://youtu.be/V-c4hepbAdI?si=RyRImw2M4s1bV1Mn

[NavyDiver]

"Tony Wood, a senior fellow at the Grattan Institute’s energy program, has written (https://theconversation.com/renewables-are-cheap-so-why-isnt-your-power-bill-falling-252391): “While the cost of generating power from renewables is very low, we have underestimated the cost of getting this power to markets as well as ensuring the power can be ‘firmed’”."

Truth is a perspective for some people on all sides of most opinions. Mine is wrong for many of course [biggrin]

“If you want to reduce your energy bills, the main way is by switching to rooftop solar and storage, and investing in efficient electric appliances. That can reduce energy bills by 80%-90%.”" that is true only IF you have the money and ability to do it!

We could and should have the cleanest and cheapest power in the World. Mine is very cheap yet I paid a lot for it[thumbsupbig]

EDIT PS the Road user tax which is likely to be paid by EV drivers is fair - Will I get taxed for my free power is a wait and see perhaps.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

'Too late' to turn backDespite these costs, many chief executives warned abandoning the energy transition was untenable given the aging and increasingly unreliable nature of coal plants that had long formed the mainstay of the electricity system.
And they argued that renewable energy — backed by batteries, gas plants and pumped hydro — was still the "least-cost" way of replacing that coal.

If we can just get our state government to stop cancelling renewable projects like pumped hydro..


Energy chiefs say net zero '''irreversible''' even though bills unlikely to fall '''for a decade''' - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-11-17/energy-ceos-say-transition-irreversible-despite-rocketing-costs/106015292)

[DoubleChevron]

If we can just get our state government to stop cancelling renewable projects like pumped hydro..


Energy chiefs say net zero '''irreversible''' even though bills unlikely to fall '''for a decade''' - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-11-17/energy-ceos-say-transition-irreversible-despite-rocketing-costs/106015292)

Huh?? Pumped hydro is the only one that makes real sense. You know exactly how much power you have in reserve as you know how much water is above the generators! I'm guessing it is so tremendously expensive to upgrade given the future output, they do not wish to proceed.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Huh?? Pumped hydro is the only one that makes real sense. You know exactly how much power you have in reserve as you know how much water is above the generators! I'm guessing it is so tremendously expensive to upgrade given the future output, they do not wish to proceed.
They didn't really say why they were caning it. Just that they would do lots of smaller ones. They will get back to us. Maybe. Maybe not.

[scarry]

They didn't really say why they were caning it.

Unviable with massive cost blowouts,was the main reason,there were other reasons as well.

It was another of the last Premiers chest beatng exercises stating it would be the biggest pumped hydro scheme in the southern hemisphere.

[RANDLOVER]

The last post could apply to the Brisbane Olympic Games too.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Unviable with massive cost blowouts,was the main reason,there were other reasons as well.

It was another of the last Premiers chest beatng exercises stating it would be the biggest pumped hydro scheme in the southern hemisphere.

Do you think the new premier will do anything to replace in in this term?

[scarry]

Do you think the new premier will do anything to replace in in this term?

Don't know,we will have to wait and see.

[RANDLOVER]

It seems due to the complexity of the modern energy market providers are able to manipulate the price in their favour....WA economic regulator accuses power generators of overcharging utilities for wholesale electricity - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-12-08/wa-power-producers-accused-overcharging-wholesale-electricity/106109294)

It says in the latest alleged breach, WA's largest privately-owned generator Bluewaters Power hiked the wholesale price of electricity by about $30 million over eight months.

IIRC from the news broadcast a total of 100M is alleged from various suppliers in WA.

[DoubleChevron]

This is goiing to be really interesting. I wonder how much I'll disagree with ....

https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2025-07/DOE_Critical_Review_of_Impacts_of_GHG_Emissions_on _the_US_Climate_July_2025.pdf

The seppoes are at it again. It'll be interesting to see how crazy "the world is ending" type statements are in it. I'll try to have a look at it tonight.

[DieselLSE]

This is goiing to be really interesting. I wonder how much I'll disagree with ....

https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2025-07/DOE_Critical_Review_of_Impacts_of_GHG_Emissions_on _the_US_Climate_July_2025.pdf

The seppoes are at it again. It'll be interesting to see how crazy "the world is ending" type statements are in it. I'll try to have a look at it tonight.

You won't learn anything. It's a lightweight "Nah! She'll be right" report designed to justify Trump's trashing of climate regs. Read it and then read this: Factcheck: Trump’s climate report includes more than 100 false or misleading claims (https://interactive.carbonbrief.org/doe-factcheck/index.html)

BTW, what's a seppoe?

[DoubleChevron]

You won't learn anything. It's a lightweight "Nah! She'll be right" report designed to justify Trump's trashing of climate regs. Read it and then read this: Factcheck: Trump’s climate report includes more than 100 false or misleading claims (https://interactive.carbonbrief.org/doe-factcheck/index.html)

BTW, what's a seppoe?

That is more like it... A good robust discussion among scientists. This is what should be driving everything. Not the one eyed "windmills, solar panels and electric cars will save the world". seppo .... everyone knows that is an american :)

I don't see any as "100% right .... or 100% wrong". The facts are all "facts" depending on which scientist and which study you wish to listen too. Fortunately I have no idea who is right or wrong. But I certainly do not believe 100% either side. They may well all be wrong with there findings for all we know.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

It seems due to the complexity of the modern energy market providers are able to manipulate the price in their favour....WA economic regulator accuses power generators of overcharging utilities for wholesale electricity - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-12-08/wa-power-producers-accused-overcharging-wholesale-electricity/106109294)

It says in the latest alleged breach, WA's largest privately-owned generator Bluewaters Power hiked the wholesale price of electricity by about $30 million over eight months.

IIRC from the news broadcast a total of 100M is alleged from various suppliers in WA.
It is my argument that renewables are not the cause of our high power costs - but is instead caused by the privatisation of our power grids and retailers. In QLD at least the grid is still mostly state owned, but even the retail arm was sold off.

The state got about 2.4 billion in 2007 for selling the retail arm off. It would be naive to think that this is not costing us more now.

[DoubleChevron]

Oh, you were serious. Seppo .... septic tank..... You know, they are full of merde :)

[DieselLSE]

Oh, you were serious. Seppo .... septic tank..... You know, they are full of merde :)
Yes. I was aware of septic tank as all the old diggers used it. I hadn't made the seppo connection.

[p38arover]

hadn't made the seppo connection.

Hard to believe! That term for Americans is probably older than me!

[RANDLOVER]

Originates from septic tank rhymes with Yank not an ugly characterisation as an earlier post imagines which makes them really "Listerine" as in "anti-septic".

[DoubleChevron]

It is my argument that renewables are not the cause of our high power costs - but is instead caused by the privatisation of our power grids and retailers. In QLD at least the grid is still mostly state owned, but even the retail arm was sold off.

The state got about 2.4 billion in 2007 for selling the retail arm off. It would be naive to think that this is not costing us more now.

It is absolutely the renewables ... Every single country that has tried this stupid "net zero" caper is rapidly going bankrupt and has the highest energy costs in the world. Its common sense, if you build throw away type power infrastructure that is intermittent in its nature (ie: depends on the weather). You need 100% capacity backup. ie: you are paying for doubling or tripling up of all the power generating infrastructure.

Now if the renewables were capable of running 24 x 7 ... reliable regardless of weather conditions, didn't have a minuscule life while also being extremely fragile. We would be having a very different conversation then. Australia as a whole we agree burdening the next generations with massive debt to build something long lasting and environmentally friendly is a good idea. We are doing the opposite, building what will be waste lands of stupidity in the near future ( windmills and solar panels littering the landscape unused ... dead) while also paying massive debts off to china for this throw-away flambe crap. There is solar panels on fire right now while I type this. You certainly wouldn't want any of your family to be a fire fighter dealing with this green stupidity. (electric cars, windmills, solar panels, big batteries).

[JDNSW]

Hard to believe! That term for Americans is probably older than me!

I'm sure I remember it from before you were born (1950s?).

[RANDLOVER]

The earliest I can remember it being referred to is way before my time, namely WWII when the Americans had General Douglas Macarthur head quartered in Brisbane with a lot of American troops for the Pacific campaign. Although it might be from before that in Cockney rhyming slang.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

It is absolutely the renewables ... Every single country that has tried this stupid "net zero" caper is rapidly going bankrupt and has the highest energy costs in the world. Its common sense, if you build throw away type power infrastructure that is intermittent in its nature (ie: depends on the weather). You need 100% capacity backup. ie: you are paying for doubling or tripling up of all the power generating infrastructure.

Now if the renewables were capable of running 24 x 7 ... reliable regardless of weather conditions, didn't have a minuscule life while also being extremely fragile. We would be having a very different conversation then. Australia as a whole we agree burdening the next generations with massive debt to build something long lasting and environmentally friendly is a good idea. We are doing the opposite, building what will be waste lands of stupidity in the near future ( windmills and solar panels littering the landscape unused ... dead) while also paying massive debts off to china for this throw-away flambe crap. There is solar panels on fire right now while I type this. You certainly wouldn't want any of your family to be a fire fighter dealing with this green stupidity. (electric cars, windmills, solar panels, big batteries).
Like I keep saying .. we need renewables and grid scale storage. But because the gererators are privatised they are saying "huh.. nothing to do with me! We just sell power from our existing coal fired plants"

That's the problem.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Everyone is just saying storage is not my problem!

https://youtu.be/EcS5trKsWD4?si=VC4zu_m_DdEbTuoh

[DoubleChevron]

Like I keep saying .. we need renewables and grid scale storage. But because the gererators are privatised they are saying "huh.. nothing to do with me! We just sell power from our existing coal fired plants"

That's the problem.

that is stupidity. all the throw-away flambe green crap is heavily subsidised and privately owned too. The second we stop handing out the $$$ it'll all get thrown away and be left for the poor farmers to deal with.

Of course the private owners of the old falling apart coal powered stations want money. They should be state owned .... they should have been upgraded decades ago. its quite remarkable they are still working with any sort of reliability.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

that is stupidity. all the throw-away flambe green crap is heavily subsidised and privately owned too. The second we stop handing out the $$$ it'll all get thrown away and be left for the poor farmers to deal with.

Of course the private owners of the old falling apart coal powered stations want money. They should be state owned .... they should have been upgraded decades ago. its quite remarkable they are still working with any sort of reliability.
Wohoo! we agree on something!! [bigsmile] Private operators will want to keep their assets making money until it costs them more than they return.

That was accounted for in the report the Nats used and then "tweaked". The academics noted that the coal stations needed to be rebuilt too, so that cost should be accounted for.

[DoubleChevron]

Wohoo! we agree on something!! [bigsmile] Private operators will want to keep their assets making money until it costs them more than they return.

That was accounted for in the report the Nats used and then "tweaked". The academics noted that the coal stations needed to be rebuilt too, so that cost should be accounted for.

And this is why the solar panels and windmills are an endless cost to us. The difference is we get bugger all power out of them versus the cost ( as the cost of them also needs to include the upkeep costs of the gas and coal powered stations, as without them, the renewables don't work).

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Interesting read by AEMO on how it's all going. They don't want coal stations - they want gas turbines.

Again the way we allow miners to sell gas and then charge Australians international prices for our gas.. it's things like this which is forcing up our prices. We need to tell them that if they want to sell our gas they have to give us some on the cheap!


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-12-10/aemo-isp-slashes-wind-forecasts-as-solar-batteries-rise/106120076?gig_actions=sso.login&gig_source=https%3 A%2F%2Fwww.abc.net.au%2Fnews%2F2025-12-10%2Faemo-isp-slashes-wind-forecasts-as-solar-batteries-rise%2F106120076

[DoubleChevron]

Interesting read by AEMO on how it's all going. They don't want coal stations - they want gas turbines.

Again the way we allow miners to sell gas and then charge Australians international prices for our gas.. it's things like this which is forcing up our prices. We need to tell them that if they want to sell our gas they have to give us some on the cheap!


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-12-10/aemo-isp-slashes-wind-forecasts-as-solar-batteries-rise/106120076?gig_actions=sso.login&gig_source=https%3 A%2F%2Fwww.abc.net.au%2Fnews%2F2025-12-10%2Faemo-isp-slashes-wind-forecasts-as-solar-batteries-rise%2F106120076

I don't really understand why we don't have massive pipelines running CNG straight to huge power stations ( that far exceed the capacity of all the coal power stations). I can only assume we aren't allowed to burn CNG .... But selling it to others to burn is just fine?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I don't really understand why we don't have massive pipelines running CNG straight to huge power stations ( that far exceed the capacity of all the coal power stations). I can only assume we aren't allowed to burn CNG .... But selling it to others to burn is just fine?

Coal stations can't be turned on and off. You can dial them back a little but essentially they just run. That's why I charge my car off coal overnight. The grid has more coal fired power than they know what to do with. I'm doing them a favour by soaking some of it up. Origin turn my car charger on when it suits them.

Gas turbines can start in 2-3 minutes. So you just need to run them when you need the power. This is another reason why privatising this stuff doesn't work. If you sepend the money to build a station with gas turbines .. you want to sell as much power as possible.

Yes - a gas pipeline with free gas right to the station would be ideal.. but again we allow the miners to choose where to sell our gas. They can sell it to the highest bidder.

[JDNSW]

Not necessarily. They sell it to the highest bidder that is prepared to commit to taking enough gas for long enough and at a price and with a cast iron contract that will enable them to borrow enough money to develop the discovery.

In general, Australian buyers have had too small a volume and have not been prepared to commit to a take or pay price for ten or twenty years.

[RANDLOVER]

Coal stations can't be turned on and off. You can dial them back a little but essentially they just run. That's why I charge my car off coal overnight. The grid has more coal fired power than they know what to do with. I'm doing them a favour by soaking some of it up. Origin turn my car charger on when it suits them.

Gas turbines can start in 2-3 minutes. So you just need to run them when you need the power. This is another reason why privatising this stuff doesn't work. If you sepend the money to build a station with gas turbines .. you want to sell as much power as possible.

Yes - a gas pipeline with free gas right to the station would be ideal.. but again we allow the miners to choose where to sell our gas. They can sell it to the highest bidder.

There are two types of gas turbine power generation one is the open cycle you refer to normally used for black out or peak lopping power due to it being quick to come online, although I believe battery technology is equally cost effective nowadays for peaking.

The other is closed cycle or gas fired power generation, and is more efficient as heat can be recovered from the exhaust via an "economiser ", so there is a gas fired boiler which makes steam to drive a turbine to drive a generator. IIRC gas boilers can idle at as low as 5% fire, but probably run a bit higher to keep the turbine warm and even turning so that it doesn't sit on the bearings and even bend the shaft, also steam systems like flow so that things don't clog up.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Not necessarily. They sell it to the highest bidder that is prepared to commit to taking enough gas for long enough and at a price and with a cast iron contract that will enable them to borrow enough money to develop the discovery.

In general, Australian buyers have had too small a volume and have not been prepared to commit to a take or pay price for ten or twenty years.
Woodside made 1.36 billion in the first 6 months of last year. [bigwhistle]

[DoubleChevron]

There are two types of gas turbine power generation one is the open cycle you refer to normally used for black out or peak lopping power due to it being quick to come online, although I believe battery technology is equally cost effective nowadays for peaking.

The other is closed cycle or gas fired power generation, and is more efficient as heat can be recovered from the exhaust via an "economiser ", so there is a gas fired boiler which makes steam to drive a turbine to drive a generator. IIRC gas boilers can idle at as low as 5% fire, but probably run a bit higher to keep the turbine warm and even turning so that it doesn't sit on the bearings and even bend the shaft, also steam systems like flow so that things don't clog up.

That is really interesting. I didn't realise the gas power stations were turbine (aka: internal combustion) based power stations. I assumed they were all boiling water to make steam ..... All the big power stations do this ... its just what they burn to make the heat ... to boil the water.

Batteries couldn't really replace a turbine generator as they have no ability to generate power, only store it. So if not charged by some other infrastructure ... they are not of much use :)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

That is really interesting. I didn't realise the gas power stations were turbine (aka: internal combustion) based power stations. I assumed they were all boiling water to make steam ..... All the big power stations do this ... its just what they burn to make the heat ... to boil the water.

Batteries couldn't really replace a turbine generator as they have no ability to generate power, only store it. So if not charged by some other infrastructure ... they are not of much use :)
They are stationary jet engines. No water involved. I didn't know they did stuff to reclaim the exhaust heat, but good idea.

[Fattima]

They are stationary jet engines. No water involved. I didn't know they did stuff to reclaim the exhaust heat, but good idea.
The hospital I work at used to have a Rolls Royce natural gas powered turbine, it generated enough power for the hospital and sold back to the grid. The exhaust heated water used for hydronic heating. It was decommissioned during a redevelopment a few years back now.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The hospital I work at used to have a Rolls Royce natural gas powered turbine, it generated enough power for the hospital and sold back to the grid. The exhaust heated water used for hydronic heating. It was decommissioned during a redevelopment a few years back now.
The dump I ride past has a natural gas turbine which is supposed to use natural gas eminating from the old dump site. I don't often ride past there but when I do its a nice day so maybe it's switched off due to too much solar?

[austastar]

Hi,
The Hobart tip site laid pipes and infrastructure decades ago, to collect gas that was going to be used in the new wing of the RHH. But no; the newly privatised Hydro Electric Commission undercut them with a really cheap offer which they could not compete with.
Now, of course, we are low on power because it is more profitable to wholesale it down the Marinus Link to Victoria at peak times and buy back cheap baseload power if needed at off peak times.
Cheers

[PhilipA]

In Saudi Arabia when I was there in the 1980s, they used to gang a dozen jet engines run on gas for power for Riyadh. I read somewhere that they were old time expired DC10 jet engines that were repurposed to provide power as absolute reliability was not the crucial issue that it is in a plane. The gas was almost free of course.
Regards PhilipA

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Changes to the government battery rebate. They are winding it back a little, and trying to discourage large batteries which were apparently getting out of control.

Federal Battery Rebate Changes: Bigger Budget, Smaller Batteries (https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/federal-battery-rebate-changes-revealed/)

[NavyDiver]

Changes to the government battery rebate. They are winding it back a little, and trying to discourage large batteries which were apparently getting out of control.

Federal Battery Rebate Changes: Bigger Budget, Smaller Batteries (https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/federal-battery-rebate-changes-revealed/)

Get in quick is my tip. The larger the very cheap battery is the better I think.

I haven't paid for any power for weeks even after dumping 90% of the battery into my car last night.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Get in quick is my tip. The larger the very cheap battery is the better I think.

I haven't paid for any power for weeks even after dumping 90% of the battery into my car last night.

I got done. I had quoted a 13.7+13.7. Not that big. The rebate was 8k. I hadn't dropped the deposit. They can't install till june so that's going to cost me 3k more. :(

I do support the changes.. I think a lot of people were doing batteries that were needlessly big because it was cheap. In that table you can see how much the rebate the big batteries were getting big rebates. 50 kwh nearly 19k. Down to 7k. Ouch.

Mind you.. who needs a 50k home battery? What are you goign to do with all that power? If you need a 50kwh battery I would think you could probably afford one.

Home Battery Rebate Reduction: See The Impact (https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/battery-rebate-values-mb3334/)

[johnp38]

Mind you.. who needs a 50k home battery? What are you goign to do with all that power? If you need a 50kwh battery I would think you could probably afford one.

Home Battery Rebate Reduction: See The Impact (https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/battery-rebate-values-mb3334/)

Lots of people for differing reasons

To have ample to sell back at peak times every night via VPP and still carry you through the night/early morning

To allow for multiple overcast days where the day time light is inadequate to fully charge so you steadily deplete over a few days but still have sufficient reserve to get through each night

To eventually go off grid in the city when the daily charge is increased to make up for loss of consumption income (what, you think they're going to let you never pay that bastard called Bill ever again?)

Our taxes are being slyly used to take the pressure off the inadequate grid by giving us 'discounts' which we pay for down the track, while the privately owned grids get to stall the upgrades which now are less urgent because we will end up soaking the peak into our home flatteries.

The guvvy is helping their corporate mates spend less and profit more with our tax money, so get the biggest battery you can afford and the most panels and plan for off grid in the city, use your future tax debt now coz if you don't you will be paying future taxes for someone elses battery not yours, and understand in the future we are going to have to do a big pushback when the politicians that only want our votes at election time really do try and enforce a sun tax as if they supply the sunlight.

[RANDLOVER]

And to run your electric toilet/incinerator when water restrictions kick back in.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Lots of people for differing reasons

To have ample to sell back at peak times every night via VPP and still carry you through the night/early morning

To allow for multiple overcast days where the day time light is inadequate to fully charge so you steadily deplete over a few days but still have sufficient reserve to get through each night

To eventually go off grid in the city when the daily charge is increased to make up for loss of consumption income (what, you think they're going to let you never pay that bastard called Bill ever again?)

Our taxes are being slyly used to take the pressure off the inadequate grid by giving us 'discounts' which we pay for down the track, while the privately owned grids get to stall the upgrades which now are less urgent because we will end up soaking the peak into our home flatteries.

The guvvy is helping their corporate mates spend less and profit more with our tax money, so get the biggest battery you can afford and the most panels and plan for off grid in the city, use your future tax debt now coz if you don't you will be paying future taxes for someone elses battery not yours, and understand in the future we are going to have to do a big pushback when the politicians that only want our votes at election time really do try and enforce a sun tax as if they supply the sunlight.

It's iteresting though. That's a lot of power to get in. I understand many people have big solar if they have the roof. I certainly don't have enough solar to feed that kind of battery. But it's also a lot to get out. If you are trying to sell into the grid then the peaks tend to be quite short and you are limited by the size of your inverter. And most people are limited in that regard.

While all these batteries to qualify for the rebate have to be VPP capable - there is not check to see if people actually use them as such.

They are going to have to force the retailers to make it worthwhile or no one is going to do it. I'm not going to sell my power for 25c a kwh when the grid is suffering when it will cost me 35 to buy it later to keep the house going. If they don't people will just use their batteries to get them through the peaks.. which is good.. but they could do better. IMHO they should work on this. Will they.. probably not.

[DoubleChevron]

They are going to have to force the retailers to make it worthwhile or no one is going to do it. I'm not going to sell my power for 25c a kwh when the grid is suffering when it will cost me 35 to buy it later to keep the house going. If they don't people will just use their batteries to get them through the peaks.. which is good.. but they could do better. IMHO they should work on this. Will they.. probably not.

that is hilarious ... 25c kwh ... in your dreams ... Its currently about 0.06c kwh from memory. Basically you pay for the power, pay for the infrustructure, then give free power to all your neighbors (who will be charged standard peak rate to use it... even though you dontated it to the grid).

why would anyone bother?

[johnp38]

I'm not going to sell my power for 25c a kwh when the grid is suffering when it will cost me 35 to buy it later to keep the house going.

That's why you go big, so you don't need to buy in later that day.

The grid 'suffers' from an over abundance of daytime power and no where to store it, causing frequency/load control issues, all of which could be neatly avoided by making the backbone DC with localised AC conversion at say the 11000 volt to 240 transformer street cabinets (three phase at 240 per leg b4 anyone gets pedantic).

No ancillary frequency control means generators ramp up anytime and only match network DC voltage without the 50Hz getting a look in.

Anyway I don't even have a battery, I have 2 grid tie 5kw inverters with only 2.5 kw of panels on each, with another 8kw of panels waiting for slack me to put up a ground mount. I am looking at Sodium Ion batteries for a couple years yet down the track install and hopefully disconnect, I am quite happy to run a genny once or twice a year if needed as long as I have power security. But I keep an open mind too, so if it is better to stay connected I will.

Anyway in answer to someone else about gas prices there is no reason for us to be competing with international pricing, the governments have been failing us for years, the country and its minerals belongs to the people who give a licence via government for private enterprise to take stuff out of the ground, and there is no reason that the rules can't say that the people get an amount as needed at a set low price and all other amounts sold off at as high a price the licensees can get on the open market.

It's not 'lefty' to look after ourselves first it is common bloody sense to give ourselves the best use of our countries resources and why shouldn't we have a low cost of living and a free health care system when all it needs is some enabling legislation and honest (that is the hard part) politicians that work for the benefit of the people as a whole.

I believe in win win win , let industry build a nuclear power station, a coal fired power station, a solar or wind farm or hydro or thermal or anything that they think they will turn a profit on, the government should look after the welfare of the people with one pricing system for internal consumption and let industry decide what it can and can't make a profit on and screw the international markets for as high a price as they can get.

no lefty socialist righty capitalist division, success requires a balance of both.

[Graeme]

that is hilarious ... 25c kwh ... in your dreams ... Its currently about 0.06c kwh from memoryWe get 3c.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

that is hilarious ... 25c kwh ... in your dreams ... Its currently about 0.06c kwh from memory. Basically you pay for the power, pay for the infrustructure, then give free power to all your neighbors (who will be charged standard peak rate to use it... even though you dontated it to the grid).

why would anyone bother?
yeah that was my point.

If you have a look at wholesale pricing it not uncommon to see feed ins of sometimes multiple dollars in peak times or when the grid is under stress. If you are say with Amber you can access those prices now but it's rare. Amber are prdicting that feed in for battery owners will be 40c/kwh between 8 and 8:30 tonight. But the buy price will be 60 at that time.

Given the gov is offering rebates which people are taking.. imho they should encourage them to give back to support the grid when it needs it most. They would need to consider a scheme to pay people when the grid needs the power and not penalise them after it.

Otherwise they are just going to hoard it. With a 27kwh battery I doubt we'll have to pay for power at all. We'll hoard it for ourselves. But it's got to give a retusn on investment

[DoubleChevron]

yeah that was my point.

If you have a look at wholesale pricing it not uncommon to see feed ins of sometimes multiple dollars in peak times or when the grid is under stress. If you are say with Amber you can access those prices now but it's rare. Amber are prdicting that feed in for battery owners will be 40c/kwh between 8 and 8:30 tonight. But the buy price will be 60 at that time.

Given the gov is offering rebates which people are taking.. imho they should encourage them to give back to support the grid when it needs it most. They would need to consider a scheme to pay people when the grid needs the power and not penalise them after it.

Otherwise they are just going to hoard it. With a 27kwh battery I doubt we'll have to pay for power at all. We'll hoard it for ourselves. But it's got to give a retusn on investment

So to "save" money, I'd have to spend tens of thousands installing a big battery that has a very finite life..... I guess if your a very large energy consumer and had a huge solar array (in itself worth tens of thousands). Yes, you might get "free" power for a period of time.

that is as crazy as thinking an electric throw-away is saving you money.

[austastar]

Hi,
I'm breaking even at the moment .
I was well Infront with a wood fired stove/hot water/radiators but had to buy fire wood. This changed when the stove burnt out and we used the electric element in the hot water and bought a gas stove.
Heating with a couple of smart panels started to erode our tariff credit seriously even with switching to 'time of use' billing, so last February we bought a heat pump for heating and scored a 10% cheaper winter quarter than 2024.
Next step is to put a smart timer on the water cylinder with 3 modes.
1. Normal thermostat 24 hrs
2. Ditto off peak times only.
3. Ditto 10:00 - 14:00 Hrs to maximise the chance of using solar instead of exporting it at 8c/kWh.
The house was designed to be solar efficient, the insulation was extreme for 1986 but would now be considered barely standard. A 2 story 6m glass topped sunroom is all the heat needed in winter if the sun is out.
It is just a matter of tweaking the system and being mindful of usage times to keep costs down.
We haven't had a bill since 2014.

Cheers

[DoubleChevron]

Hi,
I'm breaking even at the moment .
I was well Infront with a wood fired stove/hot water/radiators but had to buy fire wood. This changed when the stove burnt out and we used the electric element in the hot water and bought a gas stove.
Heating with a couple of smart panels started to erode our tariff credit seriously even with switching to 'time of use' billing, so last February we bought a heat pump for heating and scored a 10% cheaper winter quarter than 2024.
Next step is to put a smart timer on the water cylinder with 3 modes.
1. Normal thermostat 24 hrs
2. Ditto off peak times only.
3. Ditto 10:00 - 14:00 Hrs to maximise the chance of using solar instead of exporting it at 8c/kWh.
The house was designed to be solar efficient, the insulation was extreme for 1986 but would now be considered barely standard. A 2 story 6m glass topped sunroom is all the heat needed in winter if the sun is out.
It is just a matter of tweaking the system and being mindful of usage times to keep costs down.
We haven't had a bill since 2014.

Cheers

That's doing really well. Not your average build :) Certainly would have been quite expensive at the time, The thing is if you build an energy efficient house, you will get a lifetime of savings from it. Wood is incredibly expensive to buy, I pulled our wood heater out years ago and fitted heat pumps through the house.

If you could afford all this infrastructure 20years ago (huge solar panels etc) the rebates were so fantastic back then, your payback was huge. My uncle got in on the solar caper very early on. The amount of money you not only saved but made by selling back to the grid was amazing. It was a huge financial burden upfront that you needed to be able to afford though (so only the wealthy that already owned there houses and could afford to install the solar could take advanatage of it).

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So to "save" money, I'd have to spend tens of thousands installing a big battery that has a very finite life..... I guess if your a very large energy consumer and had a huge solar array (in itself worth tens of thousands). Yes, you might get "free" power for a period of time.

that is as crazy as thinking an electric throw-away is saving you money.
You are right - it's a calculation of payoff. I'm tied to electricity here... no gas. My experience is people with gas are less affected by electricity prices.

You spend money and that allows you to save money. Same as all those solar panels on roofs. With the way FIT is going.. batteries are the only way to get value from your solar. I can work out the payoff in todays dollars, but how much will we be paying for power in five years?

But I think I understand why you're miffed because you really think the battery system will be a throw away in a few years like your phone battery. Or catch fire.

See I don't. I have enough faith in LFP that I think it's going to be going and working well way past it's 10 year warranty. It's just not the problem you think it is. You should spend some time understanding LFP durability.. IMHO. Not all batteries are the same.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Powerwall expansion pack install. He's a fanboy.. but short video.


https://youtu.be/KyCBrwngufM?si=kpyXqI6xBxEPhyLn

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The other thing about having a battery is backup for during power outages. It's easy to forget how many outages we are having now with the fresh new weather we seem to have. We typically have at least one long outage a year now. In feb I think we were out for nearly 24 hours if I remember. Plus we got taken out by a winter storm but I think that was only like 2.5 hours. Plus two days where they cut the power for a day while they were doing powerline work (painful when people work from home).

And we had a long outage in 2022 with that storm too. Nuts.

[DoubleChevron]

The other thing about having a battery is backup for during power outages. It's easy to forget how many outages we are having now with the fresh new weather we seem to have. We typically have at least one long outage a year now. In feb I think we were out for nearly 24 hours if I remember. Plus we got taken out by a winter storm but I think that was only like 2.5 hours. Plus two days where they cut the power for a day while they were doing powerline work (painful when people work from home).

And we had a long outage in 2022 with that storm too. Nuts.

You better get used to the outages.... the more stupid windmills and solar farms and less *real* power stations (capable of generating power regardless of time of day .... if its windy ... or sunny ... or rainy ... or wet ...). You'd have to be nuts right?

my concern with these batteries is .... what the hell are we going to do with millions of massive, fire prone batteries in a decades time? they are going to either polute by torching off ... or be buried for our safety and polute the soil/ground water. What else can we possibly do with them? We can't even recycle the small ones without burnign down the recyling plants as regular as clockwork. What hope is there with these gigantic batteries ........

[Captain_Rightfoot]

You better get used to the outages.... the more stupid windmills and solar farms and less *real* power stations (capable of generating power regardless of time of day .... if its windy ... or sunny ... or rainy ... or wet ...). You'd have to be nuts right?

my concern with these batteries is .... what the hell are we going to do with millions of massive, fire prone batteries in a decades time? they are going to either polute by torching off ... or be buried for our safety and polute the soil/ground water. What else can we possibly do with them? We can't even recycle the small ones without burnign down the recyling plants as regular as clockwork. What hope is there with these gigantic batteries ........

It's not the windmills or the solar panels or your woke fears. It's the monster storms. We seem to have a 1/100 year flood storm event every other year now. Massive flood in 2022, cyclone whacking Brisbane directly in 2025.... Spring heatwaves causing massive storms. Oh well I guess everyone is burning fuel too so no point trying. It's just plant food anyway - right?

These aren't fire prone batteries. At least the LFP ones in my car and future home battery. You have to really work at a LFP to get it to catch fire. Lithium batteries are very recyclable. I'm not at all worried about car and stationary home batteries. They are big enough that it will be worth it so industry will spring up. Before the advent of the automobile there were no wreckers. Recycling businesses only happen when there is something to recycle. At the moment car battery failures are so rare that the few that happen.. the manufacturers are taking them and repairing them. Or at least that's what Tesla does.

If I were you I'd be more worried about the 60% of lithium batteries that go into small electronics. While these are also recylcable they are so small that reclaiming them isn't worth it so they largely seem to end up in landfill or blowing up garbage trucks. They are almost never LFP and are usually the other more problematic chemistries.

Perhaps you should get rid of your phone and try and find one with a Nicad Or Nimh battery. [bigwhistle] Remember these monsters?

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQwSLH4c0CVU6B0KoNvdG6uuiv-QHpp4FjhVQ&s

Batteries behind rise in garbage truck fires on the Gold Coast - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-28/binned-batteries-rubbish-truck-fires-gold-coast/105336710)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Tesla introduced LFP batteries into cars in 2020-2021. By 2022 80% of their cars sold here were LFP. Fromt he high mileage ones - people are reporting 88-90% health at over 400k. There are over 80k LFP Teslas in Australia now and I have never heard or read of a pack failure. BYD also use LFP and they seem to be fairing the same. With the way of the internet - if there were systematic failures we'd all know about it!

But by all means people should have a look into it for themselves.

[scarry]

cyclone whacking Brisbane directly in 2025....

The last cyclone that came anywhere near Brisbane,before 2025, was over 50yrs previously.

We often had huge storms both in the morning and afternoon when i was a kid,many with hail.

The issue these days is more properties and people are affected by storms due to all the growth and development over the years.

And much of that development is in low lying areas,which is not ideal.

[DoubleChevron]

It's not the windmills or the solar panels or your woke fears. It's the monster storms. We seem to have a 1/100 year flood storm event every other year now. Massive flood in 2022, cyclone whacking Brisbane directly in 2025.... Spring heatwaves causing massive storms. Oh well I guess everyone is burning fuel too so no point trying. It's just plant food anyway - right?

These aren't fire prone batteries. At least the LFP ones in my car and future home battery. You have to really work at a LFP to get it to catch fire. Lithium batteries are very recyclable. I'm not at all worried about car and stationary home batteries. They are big enough that it will be worth it so industry will spring up. Before the advent of the automobile there were no wreckers. Recycling businesses only happen when there is something to recycle. At the moment car battery failures are so rare that the few that happen.. the manufacturers are taking them and repairing them. Or at least that's what Tesla does.

If I were you I'd be more worried about the 60% of lithium batteries that go into small electronics. While these are also recylcable they are so small that reclaiming them isn't worth it so they largely seem to end up in landfill or blowing up garbage trucks. They are almost never LFP and are usually the other more problematic chemistries.

Perhaps you should get rid of your phone and try and find one with a Nicad Or Nimh battery. [bigwhistle] Remember these monsters?

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQwSLH4c0CVU6B0KoNvdG6uuiv-QHpp4FjhVQ&s

Batteries behind rise in garbage truck fires on the Gold Coast - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-28/binned-batteries-rubbish-truck-fires-gold-coast/105336710)

Yes, of course. attack the person and make out they are stupid. I know somewhere somewhere with a tesla that has 8million kms on it and still show 99% on its battery ... Just incredible right?

What on earth are we going to do with 85 MILLION EV batteries and all these house batteries in the near future. Yes, yes, I know, they will just last forever ? .... and they are safe and would never burn or leach chemicals. I love these threads as its highlights the insanity of this renewables industry. Its definitely a cult/religion that must be protected at all costs by its members.

the obvious answer is they can only be burried. Its the only option. That way if they burn, its undergound.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Yes, of course. attack the person and make out they are stupid. I know somewhere somewhere with a tesla that has 8million kms on it and still show 99% on its battery ... Just incredible right?

What on earth are we going to do with 85 MILLION EV batteries and all these house batteries in the near future. Yes, yes, I know, they will just last forever ? .... and they are safe and would never burn or leach chemicals. I love these threads as its highlights the insanity of this renewables industry. Its definitely a cult/religion that must be protected at all costs by its members.

the obvious answer is they can only be burried. Its the only option. That way if they burn, its undergound.
So why aren't you worried about the batteries in small electronics? Last stats I saw they were 60% of lithium batteries? Unlike car and stationary batteries they are relatively short lived and small so difficult to reclaim. If you're genuinely worried about lithium recycling go and worry about them!

So, please prove your proposition that LFP EV batteries will only last a short time. If you can't (and I know you can't) then my opinion that they will last a long time is at least as valid!

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The last cyclone that came anywhere near Brisbane,before 2025, was over 50yrs previously.

We often had huge storms both in the morning and afternoon when i was a kid,many with hail.

The issue these days is more properties and people are affected by storms due to all the growth and development over the years.

And much of that development is in low lying areas,which is not ideal.
Childhood memories are tricky. I remember frequent storms as a kid but they weren't overly severe. Short and sharp with heavy rain. Hail was rare. There was one time when hail broke a louvre and it was an outrage. I remeber like a week a year where it was over 30 for the whole week. Everyone would loose it becasue AC wasn't really a thing then.

Certainly building in low lying areas hasn't helped but fortunately we have the Wivenhoe dam after 1974. Still three major flood events since 2010.. 2022 was a doozy.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Mea culpa. The stats I was looking at must have been a few years old. With the growth in EV's they are indeed now the largest user of lithium. High 60's to 70%. Consumer electronics 20-25%.

My biggest recycling fear is not whether they can recycle lithium batteries - but whether another technology replaces lithium so reducing the commercial value of it. If it's not worth recycling then private industry won't recycle it.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Something interesting to consider.. with people installing bigger batteries and bigger inverters.. the round trip efficiency can drop partticularly at low outputs.

Probably it's about having the right size for your needs rather than a Mc Battery.

Supersize Me: The Rise of the McBattery (https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/supersize-me-the-rise-of-the-mcbattery/)

[DoubleChevron]

So why aren't you worried about the batteries in small electronics? Last stats I saw they were 60% of lithium batteries? Unlike car and stationary batteries they are relatively short lived and small so difficult to reclaim. If you're genuinely worried about lithium recycling go and worry about them!

So, please prove your proposition that LFP EV batteries will only last a short time. If you can't (and I know you can't) then my opinion that they will last a long time is at least as valid!

What do you think happens with all the small batteries? Have you ever "recycled" one .... I sure haven't. We can't do this with big car and house batteries as they are to dangerous.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

What do you think happens with all the small batteries? Have you ever "recycled" one .... I sure haven't. We can't do this with big car and house batteries as they are to dangerous.

You think I'm going to pop a 450kg EV battery in the green bin on Wednesday night?

Their size means they will be worth recycling. We've probably got 10-15 years until there will be any volume of EV batteries to recycle. It's gonna be OK.

When the first motor cars were made no one thought "We better not go there because we don't know how to recycle them".

AFAIK even though Tesla have been making cars for a while now.. the few packs they get back they recycle them. At this juncture it's worth fixing them up and refitting. The tech I spoke to at Tesla in Brisbane.. he'd only been work there for a year but in that year they had not replaced a single pack. He said when he was at BMW they were replacing one a week. Hmmm...

Access Denied (https://www.tesla.com/en_au/support/sustainability-recycling)

[DoubleChevron]

You think I'm going to pop a 450kg EV battery in the green bin on Wednesday night?

Their size means they will be worth recycling. We've probably got 10-15 years until there will be any volume of EV batteries to recycle. It's gonna be OK.



Access Denied (https://www.tesla.com/en_au/support/sustainability-recycling)

"worth recycling' ... that is just hilarious. We have done the non-existant recycling to death. It won't be "worth" recycling. It'll cost a whole entire bucketload of money to dispose of (whatever the disposal turns out to be, the greenies will call it "recycling").

If you believe these will be successfully recycled in any sort of number.... I have this gold mine for sale you might be interested in ....

[Captain_Rightfoot]

"worth recycling' ... that is just hilarious. We have done the non-existant recycling to death. It won't be "worth" recycling. It'll cost a whole entire bucketload of money to dispose of (whatever the disposal turns out to be, the greenies will call it "recycling").

If you believe these will be successfully recycled in any sort of number.... I have this gold mine for sale you might be interested in ....
Lol..

for the few that get past these guys..

Lithium-Ion Battery Disposal or Re-Use
– Second Life Battery Sales (https://slbatteries.com.au/pages/free-lithium-ion-battery-disposal-brisbane)


Envirostream Australia is the first onshore company to offer lithium and mixed battery recycling in Australia. Launched in 2017, we’ve developed safe and innovative management solutions for one of the Australian waste industry’s biggest challenges: lithium-ion battery recycling.



Just a moment... (https://liviumcorp.com/battery-recycling/)

[DoubleChevron]

Lol..

for the few that get past these guys..

Lithium-Ion Battery Disposal or Re-Use
– Second Life Battery Sales (https://slbatteries.com.au/pages/free-lithium-ion-battery-disposal-brisbane)



Just a moment... (https://liviumcorp.com/battery-recycling/)

Its utter crap .... They can't even recycle the small phone type batteries without the "recyling center" torching off like clock work. "In theory" in can be done. But it won't be. To dangerous ... You can't safely even trasport the batteries to these places. We have sunk what ... 3 massive car carrier ships now with *new* cars, but sure, we'll ship 80million giant batteries around to the world to the "recycling" plants (that aren't burnt .... or have been rebuilt from the last fire).

Its all a farce.

[NavyDiver]

195468

Shh[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

The power company I am with put me on a Direct Debit. They have reduced it every month yet are still sending me refunds [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] Not for solar feed in. I try hard to use it all[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

PS AC was on cool yesterday $0.08 cents cost for that[thumbsupbig]

[sashadidi]

195468

Shh[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

The power company I am with put me on a Direct Debit. They have reduced it every month yet are still sending me refunds [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] Not for solar feed in. I try hard to use it all[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

PS AC was on cool yesterday $0.08 cents cost for that[thumbsupbig]

what size system do you have? battery? cheers

[NavyDiver]

what size system do you have? battery? cheers

30kWh Batteries -6 × Growatt ALP 5.0L-E1 · 5kWh

Growatt SPH 5000TL-HUB (AS4777-2 2020) · 5000w I had to almost beat up the poor installers to set to run as a hybrid off grid one for 2 of my circuits. This is too small on the hybrid inverter side which I will fix soon to ensure everything is on the solar/battery side. I met a very cool growatt engineer in Melbourne who promised me I would be able to do what I had with the medical centers system I had two Victron inverter chargers running in Parallel. I will put two 10kWh Growatt inverters and back up all my circuits or use one of them and the exisitng 5 if thats possible.

6.6 kWh of solar- Solar panel15 × 440W Jolywood NIWA Black Series · JW-HD108N-R0-4401,722 × 1,134 mm · Monocrystalline

The kicker is the whole lot including the install was just 7k or about. The installers were nice yet they had installed hundreds of hybrid inverters, My home was the first they had connected as a back up and that took me knowing stuff!

The mate who really KNOWS how is Adam. I didn't use him as he may not have charged me. Mates[bigrolf]


At times you get what you pay for. Knowing what you require is a key aspect of getting what you want. I was luckily involved with the backup system at my prior job. It took a lot to get it to the goldilocks zone. Adam prices may be a bit more but you get a EXPERT rather than a sales person.

My salesperson was lovely Shikha 0424755988. She did the Solar, Batteries, Heatpump hot water and the Reverse cycle AC that was cool yesterday for free[bigrolf] It's in the space the Ducted Gas heating used to be! I have asked permission to share her number.

Adam at Everest Energy - Solar, Off-Grid and Battery Systems (https://everestenergy.com.au/) is the bees knees of My Expert resources and is asked a LOT to fix systems that were cheap! Adam gave me permission as well. I was going to do a yarn on the 10000s+++ Off Grid hybrid systems that are not off grid in any way. Then I said to myself Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaa [bigrolf] You are welcome to ask me any question any time. I would always defer to a expert like Adam before trying stuff that needs a Electrical Engineer

[NavyDiver]

I've been busted :)



"Major energy retailers have asked for more time to comply with rules forcing them to offer three hours (https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/three-hours-of-free-power-for-everyone-from-july-but-there-s-a-catch-20251103-p5n7bw.html) of free daytime power, and warn the scheme needs more work to avoid disproportionately benefiting customers with batteries and electric cars while leaving lower-income households behind."

AGE and Sydney Morning news paper yarn

"disproportionately" benefit due to my south Oz rock star induction Stove/oven, AC heating and cooling and EV Car The car is still the weak link!!!



While the Gov suggested its all sweet and rosed New rules for energy retailers help more Australians access better deals | energy.gov.au (https://www.energy.gov.au/news/new-rules-energy-retailers-help-more-australians-access-better-deals)

I suspect the coal come back in NSW has to be paid for Australia's Origin Energy to extend operations of NSW coal-fired power plant to 2029
The cost has not been disclosed. One thing we can be sure of USER PAYS in the end mostly except for smarty pants

Honestly, I did it mostly as I do not trust the power supply at times.

Warning Below is my own waffle plus for my own bad habits NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE PROMISE


The decision to keep Eraring open until 2029 has triggered immediate reactions from energy analysts, primarily focused on the suppression of near-term power prices and the validation of the "transition delay" thesis.
Tracking the n##### and u###### sectors, this is a significant "signal" event. While it may dampen immediate urgency for new energy builds (because the lights will stay on), it strongly validates the macro thesis that intermittent renewables are failing to replace baseload capacity on schedule at scale for everyone!
1. Impact on Price Forecasts (The "Scarcity Premium" Evaporates)The immediate market impact is a reduction in the "risk premium" that was priced into the 2027–2029 futures markets.


Cornwall Insight (Energy analysts) have previously forecasted that extending Eraring would cut NSW wholesale power prices significantly (forecasting drops of ~40% vs. a closure scenario).

[B]RBC Capital Markets (Gordon Ramsay): Notes that this removes the "cliff-edge" risk for 2027. Without this extension, the market was pricing in a high probability of extreme volatility and scarcity pricing.

[B]The Takeaway: Wholesale electricity prices for FY28 and FY29 will likely re-rate lower. This is good for energy users but reduces the immediate arbitrage opportunity for battery and storage developers who rely on volatility to make money.

2. The "Transition Reality" Check (The Nu##### Angle)[B]This is the most relevant factor for your interest in alternative baseloads (n#####r). The extension is being interpreted as an official admission that the renewable rollout is failing to meet reliability metrics.


The Narrative: Origin Energy explicitly cited "slower-than-anticipated deployment of renewable energy projects" as the driver. This is a direct validation of the "baseload gap" thesis—the exact gap n###### proponents argue only nuclear can fill in the long term.

[B]Political/Market Sentiment: The Coalition (LNP) uses these delays to argue that a "renewables-only" transition is impossible. By proving that coal is still required to keep the grid stable, the argument for a pivot to n##### (as a 24/7 replacement for coal) gains technical credibility, even if the timeline remains distant.

3. Impact on "Firming" Investments (Batteries & Gas)[B]Ironically, keeping Eraring open is a "bearish" signal for near-term renewable investments.


Cannibalization: By keeping a massive 2.88GW baseload plant running, Origin is effectively dampening the price signals that encourage new investment in firming capacity (batteries and pumped hydro).

[B]Analyst View (Clean Energy Council): They have critiqued the decision, arguing it "undermines certainty" for investors. If the government/operators keep moving the goalposts and extending coal, investors fear their new green projects will compete against depreciated, cheap coal assets rather than entering a scarcity market.

[B][B][B]Summary

[B]Short Term (Bearish for Renewables): Expect a potential cooling in sentiment for pure-play renewable developers in NSW, as the "urgent" need for their capacity is pushed back by two years.

[B]Long Term (Bullish for U####Baseload Narrative): This event reinforces the structural reality that [B]baseload cannot be easily replaced. It supports the long-term investment thesis that the world (and Australia) will eventually be forced to seek high-density, reliable baseload alternatives at scale.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I've been busted :)



"Major energy retailers have asked for more time to comply with rules forcing them to offer three hours (https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/three-hours-of-free-power-for-everyone-from-july-but-there-s-a-catch-20251103-p5n7bw.html) of free daytime power, and warn the scheme needs more work to avoid disproportionately benefiting customers with batteries and electric cars while leaving lower-income households behind."

AGE and Sydney Morning news paper yarn






Yep, it does favour people whith batteries and EV's. But these are both technologies that we are trying to encourage people to take up, becuase they will help us meet our climate targets.

So the energy retailers.. they are all private companies right. So I'm guessing what they are saying is "we need a way of working out how we can charge more other times to make up for lost revenue during the free time, because we are only here to make money for ourselves."

Again governments banging up against governments decisions to privatise assets. Once you've done that encouraging them to do what you want them to do.. it can be tricky to impossible.

[DoubleChevron]

So why aren't you worried about the batteries in small electronics? Last stats I saw they were 60% of lithium batteries? Unlike car and stationary batteries they are relatively short lived and small so difficult to reclaim. If you're genuinely worried about lithium recycling go and worry about them!

So, please prove your proposition that LFP EV batteries will only last a short time. If you can't (and I know you can't) then my opinion that they will last a long time is at least as valid!

They make a much smaller fire. Why would I worry. They torch off the occasional rubbish truck and tip. But get immediatly burried where they no doubt leach chemicals for decades. What do you want me to do about it? The dumbest possible thing we could do is "pretend" we are going to recycle them (as most recycling is smoke and mirrors). If we pretend they are going to be recycled, that means they will be all stockpiled/stored in one location. Which is the worst possible scenario you could ever imagine. Anyone for a gigantic impossible to put out fire ?

[NavyDiver]

Yep, it does favour people whith batteries and EV's. But these are both technologies that we are trying to encourage people to take up, becuase they will help us meet our climate targets.

So the energy retailers.. they are all private companies right. So I'm guessing what they are saying is "we need a way of working out how we can charge more other times to make up for lost revenue during the free time, because we are only here to make money for ourselves."

Again governments banging up against governments decisions to privatise assets. Once you've done that encouraging them to do what you want them to do.. it can be tricky to impossible.

DW news on climate suggested "Fires fueled by a hotter climateBlack Saturday was arguably Australia's first megafire of the climate change (https://www.dw.com/en/spain-portugal-wildfires-climate-change-global-warming-fossil-fuels-v2/a-73866654) age.
The driest inhabited continent on earth, Australia has already warmed around 1.6 degrees Celsius since pre-industrial times — about 1.4 times the global average. Meanwhile, 2024 and 2025 were the second and fourth hottest years (https://www.dw.com/en/climate-change-record-temperatures-extreme-weather-droughts-hurricanes-wildfires/a-75491609) on record. "
Australians are changing their response to wildfires (https://www.dw.com/en/australians-are-changing-their-response-to-wildfires/a-75486064)

I like it hot just not too hot.

Hot houses?

https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/7a7debc05fb5488f9dc3d3b2c97e5201?impolicy=wcms_cro p_resize&cropH=2032&cropW=3612&xPos=305&yPos=611&width=862&height=485



In short:Iconic high country landmarks in the Wonnangatta Valley and Victorian Alps have been given their own set of personal protective equipment (PPE) to increase protection from bushfires in the area.
Crews have been wrapping historically significant huts, headstones and fences in special fire-resistant material.
What's next?A total fire ban is in place across Victoria today.



https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/2026442b45c73e09faf0611ae9ef2467?impolicy=wcms_cro p_resize&cropH=1008&cropW=1512&xPos=0&yPos=243&width=862&height=575
Mean while a Topical Cyclone north WA for a blow and storms inbound


Honestly I think the wrapping would work for a slow not hot fire event. [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]


A bit like the sandbagging/ rocks to hold back the tide?

About to check about Parral operation for 2 10kWh growwat inverters to off grid the whole house. The power just went off for my unprotected bits.

If you like HOT check this out Track temperatures as heatwave sweeps across continent over Australia Day weekend - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-01-24/temperatures-heatwave-tracker-australia-day/106263796)

JJJ playing in just 4 hours Now Woo HOOO

Hottest 100 of 2025 - triple j (https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/countdown/hottest100)

That's going to be HOT and cool[biggrin]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Sigh.

So going away camping. It's going to be 36 tomorrow and forecast 38 Monday. The median Temperature for Brisbane for January is 29.3. It should be hot but this is next level. Looking forward to 35 iside the car with the AC on [bigsad]


Based on recent reports, Brisbane and surrounding areas in Southeast Queensland have experienced
multiple, severe heatwave conditions during the 2025–2026 summer season.

Key details regarding heatwaves in Brisbane this summer include:



Significant November 2025 Heatwave: A severe, multi-day heatwave occurred in late November 2025, with temperatures in Brisbane expected to reach 36°C, as reported on November 26, 2025.
Early Summer Conditions: Intense, record-breaking heat was reported across Queensland, starting as early as October 2025.
Persistent High Temperatures: The season has been characterized by "warmer than usual" days and nights, with persistent, high-intensity heat affecting the area throughout the start of the summer period.
Consecutive 30°C+ Days: Following a record-warm spring, the region experienced a continuous, long run of days with temperatures at or above 30°C.

[loanrangie]

Sigh.

So going away camping. It's going to be 36 tomorrow and forecast 38 Monday. The median Temperature for Brisbane for January is 29.3. It should be hot but this is next level. Looking forward to 35 iside the car with the AC on [bigsad]

We decided not to go away this weekend, 40 today and 42 Tuesday, tomorrow and Monday are ok.

[loanrangie]

Our gas HWS finally died on Thursday, 20 years old and i had already replaced the only 2 components that would stop it from working ( gas control valve, thermocouple ).
Called out a plumber and after he tested everything and couldnt find the problem he called Rheem tech support and the very knowledgeable retired plumber on the line diagnosed it right away - collapsed internal flue.
Non repairable and he quoted a replacement at $2700 [bigsad], my money tree hasn't flowered this decade so bit of a wtf will we do moment.
Straight onto FB marketplace and Gumtree and i found a much newer unit 5k from home for $100, 10 mins to replace and job done and i now have almost new spares.

I asked about heat pumps but even with the rebate we'd still be out of pocket more than the cost of the new unit so that was a no from me.

[350RRC]

Our gas HWS finally died on Thursday

Is this the aquamax? Are you going to do a post mortem?

David L

[loanrangie]

Is this the aquamax? Are you going to do a post mortem?

David L

It is and maybe just so i know what it looks like.

[Arapiles]

Our gas HWS finally died on Thursday, 20 years old and i had already replaced the only 2 components that would stop it from working ( gas control valve, thermocouple ).

We have an AAE system with stainless steel tank and evacuated tubes with a gas boost that's about 15 years old. When we were recently getting quotes for solar batteries we coincidentally discovered that the hot water system wasn't working (probably the pump) and likely hadn't been for some months. It was obviously just kicking in the booster whenever we wanted hot water. The funny thing is that our gas use compared to this time last year is about a third, with no changes in the numbers of people living here. I suspect that the booster alone is more efficient than the storage system - when we installed it I recall the green architects were suggesting that we could just use the booster because they were so efficient. I've had quotes for a heat pump and for a new HWS but I'll try to repair this one first.

[RANDLOVER]

Last year green energy hit the 50/50 tipping point versus fossil fuels........Solar and wind growth meets all new electricity demand in the first three quarters of 2025 | Ember (https://ember-energy.org/latest-updates/solar-and-wind-growth-meets-all-new-electricity-demand-in-the-first-three-quarters-of-2025)

[NavyDiver]

Last year green energy hit the 50/50 tipping point versus fossil fuels........Solar and wind growth meets all new electricity demand in the first three quarters of 2025 | Ember (https://ember-energy.org/latest-updates/solar-and-wind-growth-meets-all-new-electricity-demand-in-the-first-three-quarters-of-2025)

Some of the time or all of the time?

Yesterday 21000+ houses lost power while one person who will not be named claimed the VIC grid was wonderful during record demand in the evening with Zero solar![biggrin][biggrin]

It was only 40+ degrees for many of those with NO power demand at all[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

[RANDLOVER]

It means despite all the fossil fuel power stations being built all over the world, wind and solar installations exceeded that.

[Tombie]

It means despite all the fossil fuel power stations being built all over the world, wind and solar installations exceeded that.

I can run at a pace of 80km/h too…











For about 5 steps.

[NavyDiver]

It means despite all the fossil fuel power stations being built all over the world, wind and solar installations exceeded that.

They do at peak times[thumbsupbig] The rest of the time its clearly not enough and no where near enough for the growing demand in the cue to connect.

I love my solar and not anti wind except in the whales zones and ....

I did have a chuckle at floating solar panels in an article I saw. My nice shiny boat and wet stuff get wet and moldy if not cleaned a lot. My car is filthy from the ash from the bush fires. Ditto for my solar panels which are at 26 degrees to sun. Level ones I had at work needed a lot of washing to keep them clean. That was almost easy. The pics of the floating made me go HMMMMMM [bigrolf][bigrolf]

If 9 times the power demand in Solar and Wind combined with the "dreamer's" storage to last a week or so which will never happen then solar and wind would cover us most the of time.

The German multi trillion $ case study of failure is well worth considering for a rational economic choice we have. The sooner we look at real cost, economic security and longevity without irrational over promises we might get money and resources put in the right place. Untill then I am looking at never assuming the grid will be 24/7*365.

I am often wrong of course[thumbsupbig]

[DoubleChevron]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0c06_XzNrw&pp=ygUMdG9waGVyIGZpZWxk2Aa1AQ% 3D%3D

[Redback]

We are on solar, with battery back up, 24kw with 3, 8kw batteries, the plan is to go off grid in 12mths or so, at the moment we are in the testing stage, looks very promising so far.

[RANDLOVER]

Battery ratings should be in kWh, as 24 kW is no use if it only lasts 1 second.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

We are on solar, with battery back up, 24kw with 3, 8kw batteries, the plan is to go off grid in 12mths or so, at the moment we are in the testing stage, looks very promising so far.

The argument used to be going off grid wasn't worth it as you couldn't sell back to the grid when you have excess solar. But now they don't want to pay for that so that argument is gone.

What's the plan for that two weeks of cloudy weather?

I had great hopes for VPP's but it at this stage it doesn't seem as though many people are actually making money with them.

[NavyDiver]

The argument used to be going off grid wasn't worth it as you couldn't sell back to the grid when you have excess solar. But now they don't want to pay for that so that argument is gone.

What's the plan for that two weeks of cloudy weather?

I had great hopes for VPP's but it at this stage it doesn't seem as though many people are actually making money with them.

I had great hopes for a hydrogen Disco :) Big fail yet it didn't cost me a cent. Not so for taxpayers "‘Dud project’: How Andrew ########’s green dreams cost taxpayers $80m"

[wink11]

"that two weeks"

Most current battery technology, like those used in Australia’s NEM, is designed for less than 2–4 hours of storage to handle daily peaks. That's locally only as well not for the entire grid.


They are not built for a 14-day drought. Planners "overbuild" the grid (e.g., building 300% of the solar needed for a sunny day) so that even on a very cloudy day, the "dim" output still meets a baseline level of demand. The word Planners could include that hydrogen electrolysis waste or my hydrogen disco [bighmmm]. Pyrolysis/graphite is another yarn happily.

Had a looked at VPP's to see if a local was possible. Set up cost is huge! I assume those that have been set up have huge subsidies. VPP Economics is not standalone in my thoughts. It would be lovely to be optimistic that everything is perfect all of the time.

195654
In a happy world In the National Electricity Market (NEM), a major "renewable drought" typically occurs once or twice a year, usually in May or June when wind is low and solar is weak. A 14-day "total" drought is statistically rare but is the "stress test" AEMO uses for its 10-year reliability forecasts.


In a worst case it's not a happy place for most people or industry. A "worst-case scenario" isn't a single event but a "Perfect Storm"—a sequence of failures that pushes the grid beyond its designed safety margins.


The sad bit is Statistically; a "Perfect Storm" is not a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence; it is a recurring event that is now seeing occurring roughly once every 2–4 years somewhere.
In the energy sector, a "Perfect Storm" is defined as a coincidence event: when a weather-driven "renewable drought" happens at the exact same time as a technical failure or a peak demand surge.

There is the worse Black Swan event that AEMO hides a little well in my thoughts [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

On a bright note, most of us like camping or caravans when its not 50 degrees outside or cyclones or flooding of course.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

On a bright note, most of us like camping or caravans when its not 50 degrees outside or cyclones or flooding of course.
It's getting rather hard to book a weekend for camping that is not a heatwave or rain event/cyclone or both in Brisbane these days. Anytime from September to May seems fair game. [bigsad]

I'm sure it's just a hot year.. like all the other years..

Mean temps for Brisbane.
Avg Actual.
Sep 24.1 26
Oct 26.1 29.4
Nov 27.8 29.6
Dec 29.1 30
Jan 29.4 30.8 (with one day to go)

PS I CBF typing it up. I went back the whole of 2025. The whole year has been 1-2 degrees above average.
PPS Brisbane 2024 was the second warmest year on record. I don't think it's officially released yet but 2025 is going to be warmer. 2021 was the last cooler than average apparently
PPS Thanks to AI Brisbanes climate is now more similar to Bundaberg which is 300k North. Some of the warm spells are more like Rocky.
PPPS The brisbane climate is now Coffs Harbour/Grafton to as far south as Port Macquarie.

[Redback]

The argument used to be going off grid wasn't worth it as you couldn't sell back to the grid when you have excess solar. But now they don't want to pay for that so that argument is gone.

What's the plan for that two weeks of cloudy weather?

I had great hopes for VPP's but it at this stage it doesn't seem as though many people are actually making money with them.

Mate, we're lucky to get 2 weeks of sunny weather down here:whistling:

[NavyDiver]

Mate, we're lucky to get 2 weeks of sunny weather down here:whistling:

Three years with out a winter on Ships. Two years HMAS Hobart. Only time I had a tan on my very white skin. The yearly summertime week the ship was in Hobart sent my skin back to White[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

PS BCC excision in March booked and more for my Short and Sandals only dress code at sea for most of the time! Slip Slop Slap!!

Add the sunshine is nice here today. Car and batteries are charging nicely. CODED day for firyies types tomorrow - Hoping I am bored!

[austastar]

Mate, we're lucky to get 2 weeks of sunny weather down here:whistling:

Hi,
20 panels 12 years ago and we have been in credit ever since.
When the wood stove (cooking, heating, (7 radiators) and hot water) died, we switched to smart panel heaters and electric hot water.
That upped our consumption, and eroded the credit very quickly.
Replacing the panel heaters with HVAC returned us to negative bills again even with a bit of spot heating when it is really cold.
Judicious use of 'time of use' tariff helps a bit.
The next step is to get a smart switch in the fuse box to control the hot water to off peak only, with a priority on solar peak times.
I could put a battery in, but I don't think it is economical, yet. Summer time credits presently are covering the winter load by about 10%.
Cheers

[Redback]

Hi,
20 panels 12 years ago and we have been in credit ever since.
When the wood stove (cooking, heating, (7 radiators) and hot water) died, we switched to smart panel heaters and electric hot water.
That upped our consumption, and eroded the credit very quickly.
Replacing the panel heaters with HVAC returned us to negative bills again even with a bit of spot heating when it is really cold.
Judicious use of 'time of use' tariff helps a bit.
The next step is to get a smart switch in the fuse box to control the hot water to off peak only, with a priority on solar peak times.
I could put a battery in, but I don't think it is economical, yet. Summer time credits presently are covering the winter load by about 10%.
Cheers

Thanks mate, I'll discuss this with the daughter in the morning, we don't have radiators, we do have a radiant combustion heater and aircon, the aircon is used mostly when we are out to heat or cool the house for when we get home, but it doesn't get used very much.
The house is very well insulated, something we insisted on with the renovation.

There's a few things to nut out but so far it's looking pretty good, our biggest power draw are Freezers, being rural they do come in handy.

Thanks again, much appreciated.

[Redback]

Three years with out a winter on Ships. Two years HMAS Hobart. Only time I had a tan on my very white skin. The yearly summertime week the ship was in Hobart sent my skin back to White[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

PS BCC excision in March booked and more for my Short and Sandals only dress code at sea for most of the time! Slip Slop Slap!!

Add the sunshine is nice here today. Car and batteries are charging nicely. CODED day for firyies types tomorrow - Hoping I am bored!

I'm a volenteer firey for TAS FIRE, so I'm hoping for a quiet season also, our farm is surrounded by Pine and native.

[NavyDiver]

I'm a volenteer firey for TAS FIRE, so I'm hoping for a quiet season also, our farm is surrounded by Pine and native.

About a Hundred Tassie forest crew were helping here. Thank You For Your Service mate. Hope your BORED as well [thumbsupbig]

[austastar]

........, our biggest power draw are Freezers, being rural they do come in handy.


Hi,
Getting those freezers on a timer should help save some $, and avoid peak prices (if you are on time-of-use tariff)
Oz smart things
12 Whitecross Road
Bli Bli QLD 4560
Australia
Smart Home, Shelly Switches, GPS Tracker - Oz Smart Things (https://www.ozsmartthings.com.au)

Get the 15A ones.

Cheers

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Hi,
Getting those freezers on a timer should help save some $, and avoid peak prices (if you are on time-of-use tariff)
Oz smart things
12 Whitecross Road
Bli Bli QLD 4560
Australia
Smart Home, Shelly Switches, GPS Tracker - Oz Smart Things (https://www.ozsmartthings.com.au)

Get the 15A ones.

Cheers
If you just want to control it at the power point these are awesome. I've been known to turn my coffee machine on before I get home. :o Because they are interenet connected the time stays precise.

The timer I have in my switch board for the HWC is a PITA as the time drifts .. or you have an outage and forget to adjust it.

Bunnings Australia (https://www.bunnings.com.au/arlec-grid-connect-smart-plug-in-socket-with-energy-meter-4-pack_p0273368?region_id=118056&gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21112149813&gbraid=0AAAAADtbEB-x9x_o6k_N8eYmcoOb4BDzb&gclid=CjwKCAiA1obMBhAbEiwAsUBbIjgESurtZiwjR9Uh7ebT VR2a-9BnCm9SCiVuXyqBaj3okYo1BqbuXBoCXsIQAvD_BwE)

[Redback]

Hi,
Getting those freezers on a timer should help save some $, and avoid peak prices (if you are on time-of-use tariff)
Oz smart things
12 Whitecross Road
Bli Bli QLD 4560
Australia
Smart Home, Shelly Switches, GPS Tracker - Oz Smart Things (https://www.ozsmartthings.com.au)

Get the 15A ones.

Cheers

We've decided that from the weather we've had this year and the past 4yrs, we have decided to put the timers on all year round, given where we have the freezers now, and that previously we only had the timers on in winter.

Thank's for the link too, there are some great options available, our solar bloke is himself off grid, and has similar a setup at home as us(has 3 kids extra) he uses some of the gear from that link.

[scarry]

We've decided that from the weather we've had this year and the past 4yrs, we have decided to put the timers on all year round, given where we have the freezers now, and that previously we only had the timers on in winter.

Thank's for the link too, there are some great options available, our solar bloke is himself off grid, and has similar a setup at home as us(has 3 kids extra) he uses some of the gear from that link.

Chest freezers are also the most efficient by a country mile,forget the uprights.[bigsmile1]

Having them outside somewhere where it is cooler than inside also helps with efficiency.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I do think this was ill considered.


https://youtu.be/6bkxPOdO5nI?si=t1Fk8rCw8TF2qSNv

[sashadidi]

Hi In New zealand where we dont have as good a range of battery oprions , we have BYD and tesla powerwall among others.. Telsa powerwall they want NZ $ 18500...=AU$15500 .... Been looking around at offered the following as the "cheapest option...
" Price to remove your existing Fronius grid tied inverter and replace with a Sigenstor 6kW inverter with 10kWh
battery. Price includes all materials, labour, inspection and travel."
price NZ dollars 13500= AU$11500.00
seeing mixed reviews on the austrlian forum as very little information here

Anyone had any experience with this brand?
learned not to be the first off the block with stuff so trying to do my research!!

any feedback appreciated

[NavyDiver]

Hi In New zealand where we dont have as good a range of battery oprions , we have BYD and tesla powerwall among others.. Telsa powerwall they want NZ $ 18500...=AU$15500 .... Been looking around at offered the following as the "cheapest option...
" Price to remove your existing Fronius grid tied inverter and replace with a Sigenstor 6kW inverter with 10kWh
battery. Price includes all materials, labour, inspection and travel."
price NZ dollars 13500= AU$11500.00
seeing mixed reviews on the austrlian forum as very little information here

Anyone had any experience with this brand?
learned not to be the first off the block with stuff so trying to do my research!!

any feedback appreciated

I saw them at a show in Melbourne. Along with Dozens of others!


Google Gemini (https://gemini.google.com/app/ab22e43629ab9fc8?utm_source=g1&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=welcome_metro_email&utm_content=gemini_try_advance&utm_id=20087964&utm_term=110961098&pli=1)


Two notes from that

While generally praised for its sleek "Tesla-like" aesthetics and fast commissioning (installers can set it up in under 15 minutes), there were some ACCC safety recalls in late 2025 regarding overheating terminals on certain single-phase models due to installation errors. Ensure any unit you purchase features the updated 2026 terminal design and is installed by a certified technician
For a full backup of your home during a blackout, you will need to pair this inverter with the Sigen Energy Gateway

My Growatt does that Off Grid cable out of the box. The Price seemed a bit steep? the Redflow batteries I had almost 15 years ago were 10kWh and about 10k aus. I think they should be a lot cheaper now.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Hi In New zealand where we dont have as good a range of battery oprions , we have BYD and tesla powerwall among others.. Telsa powerwall they want NZ $ 18500...=AU$15500 .... Been looking around at offered the following as the "cheapest option...
" Price to remove your existing Fronius grid tied inverter and replace with a Sigenstor 6kW inverter with 10kWh
battery. Price includes all materials, labour, inspection and travel."
price NZ dollars 13500= AU$11500.00
seeing mixed reviews on the austrlian forum as very little information here

Anyone had any experience with this brand?
learned not to be the first off the block with stuff so trying to do my research!!

any feedback appreciated
Do have a watch of the videos by "your energy answers". He explains how the warranties work. You would need to interpret that in an NZ context.

I think having a solid warranty from people who will be around is probably worth paying for.

[sashadidi]

I saw them at a show in Melbourne. Along with Dozens of others!


Google Gemini (https://gemini.google.com/app/ab22e43629ab9fc8?utm_source=g1&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=welcome_metro_email&utm_content=gemini_try_advance&utm_id=20087964&utm_term=110961098&pli=1)


Two notes from that

While generally praised for its sleek "Tesla-like" aesthetics and fast commissioning (installers can set it up in under 15 minutes), there were some ACCC safety recalls in late 2025 regarding overheating terminals on certain single-phase models due to installation errors. Ensure any unit you purchase features the updated 2026 terminal design and is installed by a certified technician
For a full backup of your home during a blackout, you will need to pair this inverter with the Sigen Energy Gateway

My Growatt does that Off Grid cable out of the box. The Price seemed a bit steep? the Redflow batteries I had almost 15 years ago were 10kWh and about 10k aus. I think they should be a lot cheaper now. Hi thanks .. yes I read about those recalls which may explain the price...... sadly we dont have as much choice here and knowledge, yes long term is a thing... no so keen on telsa for price and musk as such
i looked at growatt here example:
2024 Growatt 10KWH 24V 3kW Off Grid Carbon Battery Solar Kit (https://www.micromall.co.nz/2025-growatt-10kwh-24v-3kw-off-grid-carbon-battery-solar-kit?search=growatt%20battery%20)

also this battery : Dyness Powerbox Pro | Outdoor Solar Battery 10kwh | MEDA Solar NZ (https://meda.co.nz/products/dyness-powerbox-pro-wall-mounted-battery-10kwh?_pos=4&_sid=a8be4278f&_ss=r)

will make inquires
thanks for feedback
much appreciated

[sashadidi]

Do have a watch of the videos by "your energy answers". He explains how the warranties work. You would need to interpret that in an NZ context.

I think having a solid warranty from people who will be around is probably worth paying for.

thanks you will do

[NavyDiver]

195922

Just reviewing - Power bill was supply charge only as roughly 98% of grid input is in the 11:00 - 14:00 free power period. The 2%ish was fast charging my car overnight with almost all the 30kWh batteries and some grid as the 7kWh car charger is a bit over the 5kWh inverter. The overnight rates are cheap anyway.

With the battery rebate scheme changing the economics has changed a bit I assume. I would be happy not to export at all if I could.

The system is fine yet not AI integrated smart yet making that a bit of fiddling I could not be bothered to do daily!.


When software updated to SMART I suspect I will be able to fine turn it to the weather, daylight hours and reduce even the free grid hours. The $0.01 export earnings more than cover the supply charge now.

I am assuming the 10 year warranty and assurance that the system has >60 working (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6CPXEQMypk)will see 'Total' system pay back happily

My home/car use from prior gas/power which was a bit higher due the car at about $2000ish power and $1000 ish gas per year is a sub three-year cost recovery $8,150.00.

[RANDLOVER]

Due to renewable electricity prices are starting to come down as much as 10 percent in Qld...Power prices set to fall, but Iran war casts long shadow over bill relief - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-03-19/power-prices-fall-but-relief-could-be-short-due-to-iran-war/106461930)

[Saitch]

Due to renewable electricity prices are starting to come down as much as 10 percent in Qld...Power prices set to fall, but Iran war casts long shadow over bill relief - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-03-19/power-prices-fall-but-relief-could-be-short-due-to-iran-war/106461930)

195937

[RANDLOVER]

FYI in Qld Origin is offering.....



we know solar and batteries are a great way to generate and store your own energy. We’re here to help you unlock even more value from your setup.
Take Origin Battery Starter plan, for example:

















https://www.originenergy.com.au/cdn/images/originenergy/image/upload/v1744173170/Money-icon_oq47oa.png
Earn a feed-in tariff of 18c/kWh during peak times (4pm to 9pm every day in QLD) on solar exports








https://www.originenergy.com.au/cdn/images/originenergy/image/upload/v1763508059/graph-icon_tlxgoj.png
Off-peak rates at off-peak times








https://www.originenergy.com.au/cdn/images/originenergy/image/upload/v1685669063/EDMs/VPP_Resi_BYO_Battery_Jun23/Unlocked-Padlock.R1200x5000d.png
No caps on your solar and battery exports






















It’s a simple, no-fuss way to take your home energy to the next level.