Off road/ touring - New Defender vs Grenadier

[Samblers]

Any other floating voters out there? Posting this in the ND forum rather than the IG one to be provocative...

Coming from the Old Defender (as i'm sure many on here are), logically one might choose between:

New Defender - approx $125k for D300 SE

Grenadier - approx $120k, including the following...

- 17" wheels w/ BFG A/T tyres
- bullbar (with winch, if desired)
- snorkel
- cloth interior
- aux battery
- ladder
- roof rack
- side steps or rock-slliders
- towing/ recovery
- checker plate
- LCT exempt

The equivalent New Defender would probably require another 25k(?) on top?

For me, I think the ND is/ would be a superb car. However, it's telling that LR only offer the D300 with minimum 20" wheels and no option for a cloth interior - choices purely of style over practicality, particularly for an Aus tourer. Additionally, the ND seems resistant to straightforward attempts at adding accessories - the threads on here attest to the cost/ complexities. Hacking at a $125k car makes me nervous, and i'm left with the feeling that LR are able to do it, but would prefer if you didn't.

The IG - yes unproven, and more expensive than initially promised - is compelling. Fully-formed, it seems.

Did I mention it's LCT-exempt?

[Tombie]

Cloth interior is a back step for a tourer.
Leather is much easier to keep clean!

As for the rest, having driven both, they’re chalk and cheese.

The Ineos is good, corrugations will still shake your teeth out though so same issue as all solid axles. If they had done airbagged solid axles it would have been better (and better load carrying with self levelling).

Touring involves comfort as well as capability - both show indications of not lacking in capability.

The Ineos split rear door squeaked a LOT. I doubt that they solved it fully - no other brand has managed to do so.

Really wanted to step into an Ineos, both wife and I (both have LRs) decided that’s a no go. Especially Generation 1.
Maybe in 5 years if they still are fully supported we will look again.

[Samblers]

Thanks Tombie, great insight... nothing beats lived experience (and I've only driven ND)

Opinions welcomed

[scarry]

The rear cargo area is also pretty small in the new Defender,with second row of seats up.

Nearly every one I see touring has heaps of gear piled on the roof or towing a trailer of some sort.

The 130 should address the issue,but it’s going to cost more.

Coming from a 110, usable room is going to be smaller.

Coming from a D4,the room,no proper bull bar or cargo barrier,and once again silly sized tyres crossed it off the list.

Grenadier wasn’t an option,none available and first of any model is usually not a great option.

Anyway,good luck with your decision.

[one_iota]

......

Did I mention it's LCT-exempt?

Are you sure about that because it depends?

Luxury car tax rate and thresholds | Australian Taxation Office (https://www.ato.gov.au/rates/luxury-car-tax-rate-and-thresholds/)

https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Luxury-car-tax/In-detail/Definitions---Luxury-car-tax/

[Samblers]

Are you sure about that because it depends?

Yes. Ineos are now advising customers.

[Samblers]

The rear cargo area is also pretty small in the new Defender,with second row of seats up.

Nearly every one I see touring has heaps of gear piled on the roof or towing a trailer of some sort.

The 130 should address the issue,but it’s going to cost more.

Coming from a 110, usable room is going to be smaller.

Coming from a D4,the room,no proper bull bar or cargo barrier,and once again silly sized tyres crossed it off the list.

Grenadier wasn’t an option,none available and first of any model is usually not a great option.

Anyway,good luck with your decision.

I wonder how IG compares with 110 in terms of cargo. Hard to tell, from website renders/ photos.

So did you decide to stick with 110/ D4? Consider IG in the future?

For me the time is soon coming when I want more comfort/ features than the 110 can offer.

[one_iota]

I'm not a floating voter!

I've made my choice based on the following rationale:

80% of my driving is on sealed roads to get to 15% of made unsealed roads to get to 5% of technically interesting tracks. At my age looking ahead 5 years the Grenadier would satisfy fewer my driving needs.

Only compared with my current Defender the new Defender is safer, cleaner, equally capable of doing what I want it to and something my partner will drive.

The Grenadier might also satisfy some of that but it doesn't actually exist on the road with creds yet, it doesn't have a Land Rover badge and as a design tragic it's a rip-off.

[one_iota]

Yes. Ineos are now advising customers.

I'd be seeing my tax advisor not listening to the sales rep.

[DiscoJeffster]

I'd be seeing my tax advisor not listening to the sales rep.

2023 Ineos Grenadier exempt from Luxury Car Tax (https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/2023-ineos-grenadier-exempt-from-luxury-car-tax)

[Samblers]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/blob:https://www.aulro.com/a2cca4ca-3103-413b-998b-92a24af89a19
I'd be seeing my tax advisor not listening to the sales rep.

179940

[scarry]

I wonder how IG compares with 110 in terms of cargo. Hard to tell, from website renders/ photos.

So did you decide to stick with 110/ D4? Consider IG in the future?

For me the time is soon coming when I want more comfort/ features than the 110 can offer.

I know what you mean about the comfort of the 110.[biggrin]

But they do ride well,better than any 70 series.

We had the D4 for almost 10yrs,needed something similar size,comfort,etc.

We were left with no option but to look at other brands and ended up with an LC,luckily got in before the prices went silly.

It suited our needs.

The IG wasn't really on the radar a couple of years ago,and like i said i dont think the first of a new brand or model of any vehicle would be a great option,but that is just me.If i had to chose between the two,now,i would go the ND130,and probably have to wait years for it.[bigsad][biggrin]

[Samblers]

I'm actually pretty OK with the 110 ride quality and seating position - even for long trips - it's the other types of 'comfort' that I hanker for (convenience, ease, noise, visual comfort, etc.). Most driving I do is around the city and the manual gearbox is a drag. The Mrs no longer wants to drive the 110.

IG seems like a 110 with all the old problems solved... and a few new ones (or anxieties at least) introduced - some mentioned above. Maybe in 2 or 3 years these will have been put to bed.

But as you referred to, it comes down to choice (or lack of it). Not much compares to the original 110, except the IG. ND is awesome, but is more akin to a LC (or a prado, a Nissan, etc), and I can't seem to find any of these desirable.

[DiscoDB]

I'd be seeing my tax advisor not listening to the sales rep.

LCT is paid by the seller - so if they choose not to pass on the cost then they are liable - not the buyer.

Of course the seller will pass on if they are liable, but if Ineos have obtained a private tax ruling then they will be covered and the ATO won’t chase them (as seller) for payment.

Either way the buyer does not need to be concerned if a seller does not charge LCT as it is aways the seller that the ATO will go after for LCT.

This tax ruling may also mean the Grenadier has be deemed to be a commercial vehicle as well - like a dual cab utility. Will be interesting to read the private tax ruling.

[DiscoDB]

Some more info on the Ineos Tax Ruling - looks like it is based on the Grenadier being deemed a “Medium Goods Vehicle” as the GVM is 3550kg. Also means it won’t be subject to ANCAP safety testing which gets it around not likely to get a 5 star rating (sounds like the old Defender!)

LCT exemption cuts price of Ineos Grenadier | GoAuto (https://www.goauto.com.au/news/ineos/grenadier/lct-exemption-cuts-price-of-ineos-grenadier/2022-07-21/88495.html)

Hence most likely has been deemed to be a commercial vehicle and not a passenger vehicle for LCT purposes.

[DiscoJeffster]

Hence most likely has been deemed to be a commercial vehicle and not a passenger vehicle for LCT purposes.

Not most likely, is exactly what they say. It’s deemed a commercial vehicle.

[one_iota]

Not most likely, is exactly what they say. It’s deemed a commercial vehicle.

A commercial vehicle is defined.

"Commercial vehicles are designed for the principal purpose of carrying goods used for business or trade.

They are not subject to LCT."

So I think that the IG is using another avenue. A twin cab ute it isn't. The hard top new Defender available in the UK would fit this defintion.

[DiscoJeffster]

A commercial vehicle is defined.

"Commercial vehicles are designed for the principal purpose of carrying goods used for business or trade.

They are not subject to LCT."

So I think that the IG is using another avenue. A twin cab ute it isn't. The hard top new Defender available in the UK would fit this defintion.

Really, who honestly cares. They have got an exemption “as a private ruling” so whatever the justification, they have it.

[chuck]

Landcruiser 76 series is also a commercial vehicle & as such is LCT free.

[Eric SDV6SE]

Landcruiser 76 series is also a commercial vehicle & as such is LCT free.

Noted, but those are so far from a luxury vehicle that even if they weren't listed as a "commercial vehicle" you'd be hard pressed to justify paying lct.

Being exempt also means that they do not have to have or meet ancap ratings.

[akovach]

Having driven independently sprung air suspension vehicles for over 10 years, I wouldn't go back to solid beam axles. I know the solid beams work better if wheel articulation is needed, but for my driving, I have never had any issues in the High Country or in the Outback. I love my touring and you just can't beat independent suspension on undulating and corrugated roads. So the IG is out for me.

[feraldisco]

I don't really agree with the comments about coil-spring solid axle vehicles needing to be uncomfortable...with the right coil/shock combo and some nice lambswool seat covers, my D2 is very comfortable and still handles very well (ACE helps of course). My D2 feels much more nimble and handles better than my L322, which rolled more and understeered, being a much heavier vehicle with a lot of weight in the nose (TDV8). My D2 with coils all round is just as comfortable on dirt as my L322 was and I don't have the hassles of things going wrong with the air suspension. Lighter vehicles are also much easier on tyres/brakes/suspension/steering components as well of course...the wear and tear on the L322 was much greater than D2 and I presume the Ineos is a fair bit lighter than the new 110 Deefer.

My main concern about the Ineos would be the BMW mechanicals, although on balance, over a long-term timeframe, I suspect the Ineos may have fewer glitches than the new Deefer. Having said that, probably a good idea to buy the second iteration of the Ineos to give them a chance to improve a few things...

[scarry]

..the wear and tear on the L322 was much greater than D2 and I presume the Ineos is a fair bit lighter than the new 110 Deefer.

..

I noticed that going from D2 to D4 as well.

In fact I don’t miss the D4 at all.

Unfortunately the Ineos isn’t any lighter than New Defender.

[shack]

I noticed that going from D2 to D4 as well.


Sorry, could you explain what you noticed?
It's a little obscure... To me anyway!

[feraldisco]

Sorry, could you explain what you noticed?
It's a little obscure... To me anyway!

I think he's referring to the weight difference between D2/4 and all the problems that go with that - 700kg is a huge difference.

I can't talk about D3/4s, but the L322 was harder to park and place on track than the D2 and also seemed to drain it's large new battery quickly with all it's electronica. Bottom line is that D2s make for a very practical touring vehicle and relatively cheap to maintain in terms of wear and tear items. The one good thing about my brief L322 ownership was that it suddenly made the D2 seem very easy to work on!

[scarry]

Sorry, could you explain what you noticed?
It's a little obscure... To me anyway!

Don’t get me wrong the D4 is a much nicer ride,but your paying for it.

Wears out tyres quicker,suspension components,fuel usage,brakes,and higher maintenance generally,timing belts,batteries,etc.

I had exactly the same type and brand tyre on both(slightly different sizes)and the D2 tyres lasted around 20,000Km longer,as an example.

[Tombie]

Don’t get me wrong the D4 is a much nicer ride,but your paying for it.

Wears out tyres quicker,suspension components,fuel usage,brakes,and higher maintenance generally,timing belts,batteries,etc.

I had exactly the same type and brand tyre on both(slightly different sizes)and the D2 tyres lasted around 20,000Km longer,as an example.

It’s not a fair comparison though.

The D4 for example - more torque off the line, corners better, brakes better. All of these contribute to wearing tyres etc.

And people tend to drive towards the vehicles “feel” so you were likely driving a bit harder than you would in the D2.

Fuel burn, my D4 is better than my TD5

Brakes, my D4 had new rotors and pads when I upgraded (didn’t wear out) at 20,000km and still going at 178,000km. My TD5 is on its forth set of rotors at 265,000k

Batteries, I get same life as I did on the last 5 Land Rovers, and better than my Falcons/Commodores etc

Refinement for refinement you just cannot compare consumables such as suspension bushes (which the D2 went through also). Power makes a big difference to wear of tyres and brakes.

Tyres - even same brand will often have differing compound and or variables (size etc) which greatly affect wear date & ride.

As for weight - my D4 is lighter than my D2 was…

[one_iota]

Really, who honestly cares. They have got an exemption “as a private ruling” so whatever the justification, they have it.

I do only because of the rort that is "luxury car tax". It was designed to protect the local car manufacturing industry. So if you can avoid paying a silly tax good luck but if the new defender doesn't have carpet as standard spec how can that be "luxury"? [tonguewink]

[Samblers]

... if the new defender doesn't have carpet as standard spec how can that be "luxury"? [tonguewink]

it's marble?