Defender 130 td5 engine cuts out

[MDAkinc]

My td5 Defender 130 (2002, 232,000 ks) runs and drives perfectly for about 15 minutes, and then the engine stops and the check engine light comes on. Attempts to restart it result in it firing feebly on 1 or 2 cylinders, but not enough to keep it going.

Then, if I leave it for about half an hour, it suddenly recovers and drives normally until the next cut-out, etc etc.

In my attempt to solve this problem I have put in a new fuel pump, a new fuel filter, and the two air bleed valves in the fuel filter connectors. All to no avail.

Another symptom, possibly a red herring, is that the fuel filter gets very hot. I don't know if this is normal or not.

Any ideas would be much appreciated.

Kinc

[Tins]

My td5 Defender 130 (2002, 232,000 ks) runs and drives perfectly for about 15 minutes, and then the engine stops and the check engine light comes on. Attempts to restart it result in it firing feebly on 1 or 2 cylinders, but not enough to keep it going.

Then, if I leave it for about half an hour, it suddenly recovers and drives normally until the next cut-out, etc etc.

In my attempt to solve this problem I have put in a new fuel pump, a new fuel filter, and the two air bleed valves in the fuel filter connectors. All to no avail.

Another symptom, possibly a red herring, is that the fuel filter gets very hot. I don't know if this is normal or not.

Any ideas would be much appreciated.

Kinc

Failing crank angle sensor maybe? Or the wiring going to it? PITA to get at on a Disco but shouldn't be too bad on a Deefer.

How hot? The fuel does get hot, they have a cooler for exactly that, but not too hot to touch in general.

All a remote diagnosis guess, of course, but the crank sensor will throw the MIL on.

[DazzaTD5]

As Tins suggested crankshaft position sensor...

*unplug it, spray clean it. (easy to get to on a Defender)
*unplug the injector harness on the front of the engine, spray clean it (see how much oil is in the plug).
*unplug the red plug on the ecu under the seat and spray clean it (again see if/how much oil is in the plug).

[Tins]

As Tins suggested crankshaft position sensor...

*unplug it, spray clean it. (easy to get to on a Defender)
*unplug the injector harness on the front of the engine, spray clean it (see how much oil is in the plug).
*unplug the red plug on the ecu under the seat and spray clean it (again see if/how much oil is in the plug).

Thanks, you reminded me i have a new injector harness to fit.

[AK83]

further to the suggestion already mentioned:

do you have access to a nanocom?
If so, use the page that displays cylinder balances. Watch it closely at approximately the time where you think it'll cut out. If the cylinder balances go all haywire(from relatively stable values between about 0 to 5) .. I reckon your injector seals are gone, or on the way out .. and it'll probably just get worse.

If you don't have a nanocom, the other thing you can test out is, when it cuts out again, do the routine where you bleed the injection system. On a D2 that is ignition on(don't start!) and pump accel five times rapidly, where it then actiuvates the fuel pump for a few minutes to bleed out the fuel lines.
This may result in an instant start fairly quickly, or (more accurately) a less arduous start than you have at the moment. It may also result in a lot of smoke on start up if it does.
I don't know the bleed routine for a Defender, but I'm guessing it's the same as a D2 TD5 too.
If it does do this, you will see a warning light on the dash as well as hear a hissing sound as the pump bleeds out the injectors.

What you described(and I suggested) is exactly what happen with my D2 when brother owned it and drove us crazy trying to sort it out, until the wise chaps here suggested injector seals.

if you haven't done them at any stage, or don't know if they have been done, may also be wise to get ready to do them sooner rather than later anyhow(common issue with some klms on the clock).
They're not hard to do, even for those of us with just the basic tool handling abilities.

[MDAkinc]

Failing crank angle sensor maybe? Or the wiring going to it? PITA to get at on a Disco but shouldn't be too bad on a Deefer.

How hot? The fuel does get hot, they have a cooler for exactly that, but not too hot to touch in general.

All a remote diagnosis guess, of course, but the crank sensor will throw the MIL on.

MDA Kinc writes: Thank you for the crank angle sensor suggestion. I will get it scanned and report.

[MDAkinc]

Failing crank angle sensor maybe? Or the wiring going to it? PITA to get at on a Disco but shouldn't be too bad on a Deefer.

How hot? The fuel does get hot, they have a cooler for exactly that, but not too hot to touch in general.

All a remote diagnosis guess, of course, but the crank sensor will throw the MIL on.

Thanks for the tip about the crank angle sensor. The one that's in there is a new genuine one put in last July because of starting problems, which it seems to have cured. Now it starts OK but stops after 15 minutes. It feels like it is running out of fuel. Could the problem be fuel or electrical?

[MDAkinc]

As Tins suggested crankshaft position sensor...

*unplug it, spray clean it. (easy to get to on a Defender)
*unplug the injector harness on the front of the engine, spray clean it (see how much oil is in the plug).
*unplug the red plug on the ecu under the seat and spray clean it (again see if/how much oil is in the plug).

Many thanks Dazza TD5 for those specific suggestions. I will start with the injector harness and the red plug under the seat, as I have recently replaced the crank angle sensor.
MDAKinc

[Tins]

Thanks for the tip about the crank angle sensor.

That's why we're here. Tips are often wrong, as remote diagnosis can be like that, but sometimes they can help.


Could the problem be fuel or electrical?

Either. I'd look into what Dazza said about the injector harness and the red plug on the ECU, common fault, and what Arthur posted about injector seals. Ask if someone near you has a Nanocom, Disco or Deefer, it doesn't matter as long as it's unlocked for the TD5.

[MDAkinc]

Thanks for your brilliant and detailed help, AK83.
I haven't got a Nanocom, but I see there is one on line for $271 plus postage from the UK. It's called iCar Soft LR V2.0. Would that be worth getting?

As to injector seals, Bruce Davis of Windsor did them for me back in July when I had starting problems. That is when the crank angle sensor was replaced. Is it likely they would need doing again so soon? (By the way, thanks for the tip on doing them myself. I'm gennnerally a DIY man, but didn't realise I could have done this myself.)

I'll try the bleed routine.
MDAKinc

[Tins]

Thanks for your brilliant and detailed help, AK83.
I haven't got a Nanocom, but I see there is one on line for $271 plus postage from the UK. It's called iCar Soft LR V2.0. Would that be worth getting?



Not the same thing at all. Nanocom is way more capable. It is not particularly user friendly, though. It's also more expensive. But I had one and sold it. Regretted doing so for years and now I have another. If you were in Melbourne you could borrow it.

iCarSoft is available locally if you'd prefer that. I doubt you'll be able to do what you need with it though, and it will become another thing in the bottom of a drawer.

iCarsoft Professional Multi-System Auto Diagnostic Tool LR V2.0 Compatible for Landrover/Jaguar ABS SRS Oil Reset DPF, The Update for LR II : Amazon.com.au: Automotive (https://www.amazon.com.au/Version-iCarsoft-Diagnostic-LR-V2-0/dp/B0791CF7T7)

[AK83]

Thanks for your brilliant and detailed help, AK83.
I haven't got a Nanocom, but I see there is one on line for $271 plus postage from the UK. It's called iCar Soft LR V2.0. Would that be worth getting?

....

iCarSoft won't work on a TD5, don't waste $s(or thoughts) on one(unless you have any other OBDII capable vehicles you may want to diagnose).

I think the other option is a Hawkeye diagnostic thing. I've read some folks use them, but don't know anything about them myself.

If you've had injector seals done(as well as CPS) and Bruce Davis has a reputable following, it's unlikely then that they are the causes. Not impossible to take out of the equation, just very unlikely to be.

Another possible cause could be FPR(fuel pressure regulator), and you could do a cheaper rebuild option(strip and replace regulator) or you could just get an entire assembly to replace. But this is just guesswork.

So is your issue persistent? .. in that it will only run for about 15mins every time .. or just that on some drives it will do this, but then other times it runs ok?

When we were troubleshooting the brothers D2, it was a 'always on' issue .. in that the car would only drive for about 10-15mins or so .. ie. pretty much unusable.

I haven't checked the temp of the fuel filter myself, but when we replaced the fuel pump(incorrect guess at the injector seal issue), I do remember that the half a tank of diesel was very warm. Note that the fuel going to the injectors does funnel it's way through the actual head(in via the FPR, out from the front via a return pipe) .. and it's under pressure by both the fuel pump, and each injector .. AND it also gets some heat transfer from the coolant too via the fuel cooler too.
So it would be expected that the fuel filter should be warm(just that I've never thought to check it).

One other question: if you drive for a shorter duration, that is switch it off before it dies, does it then run for about 15 mins again, or will it only drive for a short period?

When I finally gave in and began taking it to a LR expert to solve the mystery, I was driving at a reduced speed to normal(eg. instead of 80 in a 80 zone, I was just pootling at 60), then the TD5 started to die a bit more slowly than it usually did.
Spur of the moment choice, I vigorously pumped the accelerator as it was dying. In the old days I had a old beetle that had a vapour locking fuel pump, and to keep it going while it died, I did this, and it kept going.
It was more of a reaction, then a premeditated thought.
Anyhow , it kind of came good, just with much reduced power at the time and billowing out smoke(from the exhaust). but it kept going. I stopped it due to the smoke level(totally inconsiderate).
So I turned around and headed back home. Later that night, I tried the same thing, but it was hit and miss if it worked. I tried at many speeds trying to replicate the exact situation, but nothing. it helped sometimes, but other times not.

The, same day, I got back onto the forum and noted a few replies, re the injector seals.

[Graeme]

I can't recall what the fuel cap was like on my D2s but if the cap has a vacuum relief valve then try leaving the cap loose. I had a BMW Isetta when a teenager that would stop after different running times depending on how much fuel was in the tank that was caused by a blocked breather valve in the fuel cap.

[MDAkinc]

Thanks very much to ADK83 for your long thughtful post. Sorry I haven't reacted sooner. I've had to put the problem on hold until the new year, but briefly now: Since it developed suddenly a few weeks ago, it has been an 'always on' problem, as you describe. Every time I use the car, or try to, it will drive normally for 15 minutes and then quit. As you put it, it is pretty much unusable.

I will think about the fuel pressure regulator. I will also look at fuel cap breather. I must say, the car's behaviour matches inability to breathe, although I'm surprised that that would cause such instant failure each time.

Thanks for warning me off the iCarSoft analyser. I'm planning a trip from Sydney to the Kimberley starting in May, so given the age of the vehicle I think it might be a good idea to have an analyser of some sort.

I've got a wider question for the forum: This vehicle (a single cab ute) has been enormously versatile and useful. At home on the small farm, it has a tipping ute body. For travelling, we take that off the chassis and put a camper van body on, with which we have travelled over most of Asia and North America with no problems. The car is 20 years old and has 232,000 kms on it. I'm willing to spend money on a major re-fit to return it to near-new reliability, since I can't get a new one. What do people think?

Happy New Year. I'll be back then.
Kinc

[Tins]

OK. Nanocom. These are great. As I said previously I sold mine for reasons I won't go into. I regretted it so much that I bought another one last year, and my D2 is currently not being driven. You are free to start a Group Buy, although I'm not sure if the demand is still there, but suck it and see, I guess. If you choose to get one, I would recommend sooner rather than later, as the interface is "interesting", so better to familiarize your self with it before you find you need it.

230,000 for a 20 year old TD5? It's barely run in. I can't see why it would need a whole lot of work. I would have a couple of suggestions though. TD5s of that vintage had a couple of quirks, well the Disco ones did and I imagine the Defender ones came down the same line. I would suggest checking with those with more accurate knowledge than mine if your engine is one that had the plastic dowells to locate the cylinder head. If it did you have either had the head gasket replaced, or you are about to. If it was one of the later ones then don't worry. Same thing applies to the oil pump bolt. Some were built without this being fitted with no thread lock, and that is serious. Once again, your engine may not fall into this category but it's a must to at least check. I'm fairly sure folk like discorevy would be able to tell you based on its production year. I think it was a narrow window, but its a 'fail to proceed' item if ever there was one. It's no biggie to do a preventative fix.

For a trip like that I would suggest at the least a low coolant/high temp alarm, although you could rig your new Nanocom to display temps. Obviously you'll be carrying spares of stuff :soapbox:

Just a couple of thoughts. I'm sure folk will have others.

[discorevy]

Thanks very much to ADK83 for your long thughtful post. Sorry I haven't reacted sooner. I've had to put the problem on hold until the new year, but briefly now: Since it developed suddenly a few weeks ago, it has been an 'always on' problem, as you describe. Every time I use the car, or try to, it will drive normally for 15 minutes and then quit. As you put it, it is pretty much unusable.

I will think about the fuel pressure regulator. I will also look at fuel cap breather. I must say, the car's behaviour matches inability to breathe, although I'm surprised that that would cause such instant failure each time.

Thanks for warning me off the iCarSoft analyser. I'm planning a trip from Sydney to the Kimberley starting in May, so given the age of the vehicle I think it might be a good idea to have an analyser of some sort.

I've got a wider question for the forum: This vehicle (a single cab ute) has been enormously versatile and useful. At home on the small farm, it has a tipping ute body. For travelling, we take that off the chassis and put a camper van body on, with which we have travelled over most of Asia and North America with no problems. The car is 20 years old and has 232,000 kms on it. I'm willing to spend money on a major re-fit to return it to near-new reliability, since I can't get a new one. What do people think?

Happy New Year. I'll be back then.
Kinc


There's a couple of ways to check Crank Sensor, which, as Tins and Daz wrote, sounds like a possible problem.

1: Check engine revs while cranking with a TD5 compatible reader after it cuts out, but as you don't have, or can access one ... yet, then

2: When it stops, have a bottle of water ready, lift the bonnet and pour the water onto the Crank Sensor. They normally play up when they get warm if faulty and this will cool it down, usually enough to start it again, obviously if it starts up it's the sensor.
Also check the wiring to the sensor hasn't been stretched or sandwiched between box and engine if the clutch has been recently changed.

If the old fuel pump that was removed was blackened with carbon that will mean injector seals.

It's always a possibility the new injector washers were fitted without the surfaces being cleaned properly.
Does it take a lot of cranking to start after sitting for a while?

Obviously as others have stated, check for oil ingress to wiring, ECU , harness


The plastic dowel's I've seen in Every year up to and including 2004 models and haven't had to remove a head on anything TD5 after that year. (Defenders only after 04).. Daz?

Finally, as Tins alluded to, Those K's on a TD5 are very low, keep the fluids and filters changed regularly and you can expect a very long service life out of it.
I do 2 that have over 700 000 k's on original engines with no reason to overhaul yet. ( now I've done it :) )

It's safe to say that IF you were to find something modern to replace it with, then the new one will be far less reliable and long lived due to Emission regs and the levels of complexity necessary for modern vehicles, use of plastics subjected to heat cycles etc... In other words, Keep it.

[Tins]

Also check the wiring to the sensor hasn't been stretched or sandwiched between box and engine if the clutch has been recently changed.



That happens. Ask me how I know[bigwhistle]. But in my case, the thing wouldn't start because the sensor was inside the bellhousing.... that's how I know that a Jag one fits...

[MDAkinc]

I'm back after the Christmas and NY holiday. Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions for the problem with my 2002 td5 defender cutting out. I'm afraid the problem has got worse. After sitting for a week or so, the thing now won't start at all, let alone continue running. My son John and I have made notes of possible sources of the problem. I am now about to type up these notes and will post them in the next couple of days for your consideration.
MDAKinc

[MDAkinc]

2 January 2023
MDAkinc

2002 Land-Rover Defender td5 130 single cab ute cuts out and now won’t start at all.

SYMPTOMS

Engine Died. Two weeks ago now the LR suddenly died on the road after about 8 ks. Up until then it had been running well and normally. I tried starting it several times in the next half hour. Twice it started but packed up again after only a hundred metres. But at the end of the half hour it returned to normal and I was able to drive home, near which it quit again.This pattern was repeated several times since the original.

I’ve got an appointment with Bruce Davis, the LR expert in South Windsor, on 30 Jan, but I hope to get it fixed before then, especially as rego is coming due.

Engine won’t start. The LR sat unused for about a week. A few days ago when I tried it, it wouldn’t start at all.

Smoke from exhaust. It cranked fine, and some smoke appeared from the exhaust pipe. As I understand it, no fuel can enter the combustion chambers without an electrical signal. If so, then if the smoke is diesel smoke, the injectors must be receiving electrical signals. If not, might the smoke be coolant or sump oil? The oil level is very slightly high, but that could be that I slightly over-filled it at the last oil change. The coolant level is OK.

Fuel Gauge. The fuel gauge was acting unreliably before this trouble. I replaced the connector at the top of the fuel tank and the gauge now reads reliably.

Fuel pump. Early in this saga I replaced the fuel pump with a new genuine one. This has made no difference to the problem.

Volt Meter. The volt meter pins itself on the high side of the gauge when it is switched to either of the two batteries. The original one was giving those same problems before I put in a new gauge about 4 months ago and now the new one is doing the same thing.

Fuel Tank Breathers. A single system of pipes vents the three fuel tanks to two outlets. One of these outlets was blocked but clearing it made no difference.

Radiator. The cooling system has been functioning normally. However, a year or more ago I had two or three isolated issues where the temperature gauge suddenly shot up on a long hill, causing the engine to lose power dramatically but temporarily. I blew out the radiator with compressed air and was going to get the radiator pressure tested, but haven’t done so.

In-Line Air Bleeders. Since the start of the current troubles, I have replaced the two in-line air bleeders in the rear outer (white nylon insert) and forward inner (rubber duck’s bill) fuel lines from the fuel filter. This has made no difference. The mount for the fuel filter looks to be in sound condition.

Fuel Air Bleed Sequence. The fuel bleed sequence (floor the accelerator 5 times and then wait for check engine to go out) doesn’t cure the problem but it also doesn’t seem to get rid of all the air.

Reversing Light. The reversing light actuated by the gear lever doesn’t work since the clutch was replaced in Victor Harbour last March.

Oil in Wiring Loom. At the suggestion of the forum, I took the red plug off at the computer. There was a tiny amount of oil in it. I cleaned the connection with contact cleaner.

Crank Angle Sensor. Bruce Davis put in a new good quality one when he did the injector seals last July.


ACTIONS PLANNED BEFORE TAKING IT TO Bruce Davis

Analyser. I will get our local mechanic to test the car with his analyser, which is not specifically for Land-Rovers. I will also consider buying the analyser suggested by AK83 on the forum.

Fuel Pressure. I have ordered a fuel pressure test kit. Where should I test it? I assume at the outlet of the fuel pressure regulator and at the point where the fuel leaves the engine for the return to the filter. It is supposed to be 4 bars.

Fuel Temperature. I will test the fuel temperature. Any advice about how to do this? Where is the fuel temperature sensor?

Injector Seals. These have been mentioned on the forum as possible culprits. These were changed by Bruce Davis last July at considerable cost. Is it worth changing them again? I now see online that changing them is simple. Will the engine run if, say, one injector has not been done up properly?

Injector Wiring Loom. This is mentioned several times on the forum as worth doing. It is cheap to buy, only about $100, and is apparently easy to do. It is also something that should be done regularly. I plan to replace it within the next week.

Cooling System Pressure Test. I’ll get our local mechanic to do that, unless the forum can tell me how to do it.


ANY ADVICE from the Forum about all this will be much appreciated.

Kinc

[shack]

2 January 2023MDAkinc2002 Land-Rover Defender td5 130 single cab ute cuts out and now won’t start at all.SYMPTOMSEngine Died. Two weeks ago now the LR suddenly died on the road after about 8 ks. Up until then it had been running well and normally. I tried starting it several times in the next half hour. Twice it started but packed up again after only a hundred metres. But at the end of the half hour it returned to normal and I was able to drive home, near which it quit again.This pattern was repeated several times since the original.I’ve got an appointment with Bruce Davis, the LR expert in South Windsor, on 30 Jan, but I hope to get it fixed before then, especially as rego is coming due.Engine won’t start. The LR sat unused for about a week. A few days ago when I tried it, it wouldn’t start at all. Smoke from Exhaust. It cranked fine, and some smoke appeared from the exhaust pipe. As I understand it, no fuel can enter the combustion chambers without an electrical signal. If so, then if the smoke is diesel smoke, the injectors must be receiving electrical signals. If not, might the smoke be coolant or sump oil? The oil level is very slightly high, but that could be that I slightly over-filled it at the last oil change. The coolant level is OK.Fuel Gauge. The fuel gauge was acting unreliably before this trouble. I replaced the connector at the top of the fuel tank and the gauge now reads reliably. Fuel pump. Early in this saga I replaced the fuel pump with a new genuine one. This has made no difference to the problem.Volt Meter. The volt meter pins itself on the high side of the gauge when it is switched to either of the two batteries. The original one was giving those same problems before I put in a new gauge about 4 months ago and now the new one is doing the same thing.Fuel Tank Breathers. A single system of pipes vents the three fuel tanks to two outlets. One of these outlets was blocked but clearing it made no difference.Radiator. The cooling system has been functioning normally. However, a year or more ago I had two or three isolated issues where the temperature gauge suddenly shot up on a long hill, causing the engine to lose power dramatically but temporarily. I blew out the radiator with compressed air and was going to get the radiator pressure tested, but haven’t done so. In-Line Air Bleeders. Since the start of the current troubles, I have replaced the two in-line air bleeders in the rear outer (white nylon insert) and forward inner (rubber duck’s bill) fuel lines from the fuel filter. This has made no difference. The mount for the fuel filter looks to be in sound condition.Fuel Air Bleed Sequence. The fuel bleed sequence (floor the accelerator 5 times and then wait for check engine to go out) doesn’t cure the problem but it also doesn’t seem to get rid of all the air.Reversing Light. The reversing light actuated by the gear lever doesn’t work since the clutch was replaced in Victor Harbour last March.Oil in Wiring Loom. At the suggestion of the forum, I took the red plug off at the computer. There was a tiny amount of oil in it. I cleaned the connection with contact cleaner.Crank Angle Sensor. Bruce Davis put in a new good quality one when he did the injector seals last July. ACTIONS PLANNED BEFORE TAKING IT TO Bruce DavisAnalyser. I will get our local mechanic to test the car with his analyser, which is not specifically for Land-Rovers. I will also consider buying the analyser suggested by AK83 on the forum.Fuel Pressure. I have ordered a fuel pressure test kit. Where should I test it? I assume at the outlet of the fuel pressure regulator and at the point where the fuel leaves the engine for the return to the filter. It is supposed to be 4 bars.Fuel Temperature. I will test the fuel temperature. Any advice about how to do this? Where is the fuel temperature sensor?Injector Seals. These have been mentioned on the forum as possible culprits. These were changed by Bruce Davis last July at considerable cost. Is it worth changing them again? I now see online that changing them is simple. Will the engine run if, say, one injector has not been done up properly?Injector Wiring Loom. This is mentioned several times on the forum as worth doing. It is cheap to buy, only about $100, and is apparently easy to do. It is also something that should be done regularly. I plan to replace it within the next week.Cooling System Pressure Test. I’ll get our local mechanic to do that, unless the forum can tell me how to do it.ANY ADVICE from the Forum about all this will be much appreciated.Offer someone on here a carton of beer if they will swing past with a diagnostic tool that is compatible.

It's basically impossible to do anything without this... And will be the cheapest and easiest first option towards getting it sorted.

[Tins]

Bit to take in there...

I cam only add that a Nanocom is a good tool to have if you own a TD5. However you won't get one instantly as they are based in Cyprus. I see you are in Sydney. I know that there are Nanocoms there. My old one is one of them. If you put out a "help needed" message on the forum you may find someone who is willing to lend you theirs. I know I have done that for at least four people here in Melb.

I think it's best to treat the injector harness as a 'service item', and replace it at every major service, the problems with it being so common. You will also need to clean away any oil present at the red plug. On mine I actually had to open the ECU and clean out oil inside there as well. The new injector harness does not go all the way to the red plug, it only goes to the front of the head, but the oil doesn't know that and happily makes its way down the loom, so there's a bit of cleanup to do. Brake cleaner is fine for most of this, but I preferred to use a dedicated electrical cleaner inside the ECU. I don't know if this was necessary, but hey, it's a Land Rover, so better safe etc..

I have heard of people trying to seal the end of the injector harness. I have no idea if they succeeded. As it's a nasty environment it lives in it's easier to just replace it. I cleaned the old one and carry it in the spares box. Carrying a new one would be better.

Just my thoughts. Good luck with it.

[Tins]

Offer someone on here a carton of beer if they will swing past with a diagnostic tool that is compatible.



I knew I was doing something wrong.... I never charged beer..

[shack]

I knew I was doing something wrong.... I never charged beer..Typical rookie mistake...

[MDAkinc]

OK. Nanocom. These are great. As I said previously I sold mine for reasons I won't go into. I regretted it so much that I bought another one last year, and my D2 is currently not being driven. You are free to start a Group Buy, although I'm not sure if the demand is still there, but suck it and see, I guess. If you choose to get one, I would recommend sooner rather than later, as the interface is "interesting", so better to familiarize your self with it before you find you need it.

230,000 for a 20 year old TD5? It's barely run in. I can't see why it would need a whole lot of work. I would have a couple of suggestions though. TD5s of that vintage had a couple of quirks, well the Disco ones did and I imagine the Defender ones came down the same line. I would suggest checking with those with more accurate knowledge than mine if your engine is one that had the plastic dowells to locate the cylinder head. If it did you have either had the head gasket replaced, or you are about to. If it was one of the later ones then don't worry. Same thing applies to the oil pump bolt. Some were built without this being fitted with no thread lock, and that is serious. Once again, your engine may not fall into this category but it's a must to at least check. I'm fairly sure folk like discorevy would be able to tell you based on its production year. I think it was a narrow window, but its a 'fail to proceed' item if ever there was one. It's no biggie to do a preventative fix.

For a trip like that I would suggest at the least a low coolant/high temp alarm, although you could rig your new Nanocom to display temps. Obviously you'll be carrying spares of stuff :soapbox:

Just a couple of thoughts. I'm sure folk will have others.

This is very helpful, Tins. A friend of mine had a discovery td5 on which the oil pump bolt fell out, ruining the whole engine on his way to Brisbane. Land-Rover had to be dragged kicking and screaming to help as it was out of warranty by a month, but in the end they replaced the entire engine and lent him a car while it was being done. What a waste for them of an opportunity for very good publicity. My Defender was made in December 2002, so if anyone knows whether it is prone to the oil pump bolt problem, please tell me and if it is I'll definitely cure it before setting off to the Kimberley in May.

I see there is a NANOCOM Evolution for TD5 Defender kit. AU$634.41 excl VAT from the UK. Is that the one I want? If it's as good as reputed, it might not only solve this problem, but give a sense of security on a long trip in the wilderness.
Kinc

[Tins]

Land-Rover had to be dragged kicking and screaming to help as it was out of warranty by a month, but in the end they replaced the entire engine and lent him a car while it was being done. What a waste for them of an opportunity for very good publicity.

Not wrong, especially as it was a known issue, but LR don't have a great track record here, as certain owners of L319s can attest.



My Defender was made in December 2002, so if anyone knows whether it is prone to the oil pump bolt problem, please tell me and if it is I'll definitely cure it before setting off to the Kimberley in May.


If nobody can tell you, it's really just a take the sump off thing. OK, perhaps that's oversimplifying it a little, but it's not huge. I think mine wasn't in "the window", but it concerned me so much I checked it anyway. It was fine, but the peace of mind was worth it.

[MDAkinc]

Nanocom for defender td5 wanted to buy, hire, or borrow. Please reply to MDAkinc (Sydney)

[PWat]

Nanocom for defender td5 wanted to buy, hire, or borrow. Please reply to MDAkinc (Sydney)

Which part of Sydney are you in?

[AK83]

This is very helpful, Tins. A friend of mine had a discovery td5 on which the oil pump bolt fell out, ruining the whole engine on his way to Brisbane. Land-Rover had to be dragged kicking and screaming to help as it was out of warranty by a month, but in the end they replaced the entire engine and lent him a car while it was being done. What a waste for them of an opportunity for very good publicity. My Defender was made in December 2002, so if anyone knows whether it is prone to the oil pump bolt problem, please tell me and if it is I'll definitely cure it before setting off to the Kimberley in May.

I see there is a NANOCOM Evolution for TD5 Defender kit. AU$634.41 excl VAT from the UK. Is that the one I want? If it's as good as reputed, it might not only solve this problem, but give a sense of security on a long trip in the wilderness.
Kinc

Yep! on the Nanocom kit you described there.
Just an FYI on how it all kind'a works... and sometimes doesn't ... (they can be a bit temperamental these things)

You buy the hardware unit, which will come with a cable. You also have to specify which vehicle type you want it for. ie. in your situation, you will order a Defender software setup.
The nanocom works on a variety of LR vehicles, both petrol and diesel. Defers only came in diesel, as it's the only option in the nanocom spere.
D2s came in petrol or TD5, so as an example of how the software works, you could also order a Discovery 2 software addition(cost extra) but you also have to specify petrol or diesel.
Just something to keep in mind! .. ie. don't order a TD5 for a D2 .. unless you have a D2 TD5 .. it's useless to you. Defender TD5 is what you need. If at any future point you end up with a D2(v8 or TD5) .. you can add the necessary option for it(to your nanocom hardware).

I'd recommend buying a mounting kit for it too as an option. It's a good device to monitor your TD5 vitals(like an OBD gauge display tool, but for TD5s). Good for watching coolant temps, because the temp gauge on the dash is useless. Also voltages too.
I recently had intermittent voltage dropouts in the D2. obviously the alternator was on it's last legs(which you'd expect after nearly 400K klms .. that I assume it's done). Alt is quite low on the engine and prone to both oil build up and dirt/mud/crap .. so they will wear. I reckon the brushes will be worn, but the main issue is that the commutator will be too worn for an easy fix. So good to know that voltages were intermittently dropping the way they did, wayyyy before it became an issue in some isolated location.

I guess this is why I'm having such a hard time parting company with my beloved Tdi! I once ran it for close to two weeks with a dead alternator(waiting for one to come into stock) .. but the tdi has so much purity, in the form of zero electronics .... running with a battery at 11.0 volts isn't an issue. Tdis' just chug along without really needing a lot of electricity! [biggrin]
Anyhow, nothing to do with TD5s and keeping a watch on them, but just to highlight a point. If you keep on top of it, it WILL last close to forever.

Hence why gauges are my favourite recommendation.

Can't help re the oil pump bolt, but if you do your own services/oil changes .. do one with sump off and check whilst your in there(so to speak). I think the conventional thinking is to get the new bolt part(will have locktite on it) and just replace it while sump is off. Sump uses a gasket, so have the required gasket and bolt ready to go and do the service.
I suppose you could just remove bolt, clean it and loctite it without a new bolt. I think a genuine bolt costs about $5 or so.

[Tins]

.

D2s came in petrol or TD5, so as an example of how the software works, you could also order a Discovery 2 software addition(cost extra) but you also have to specify petrol or diesel.
Just something to keep in mind! .. ie. don't order a TD5 for a D2 .. unless you have a D2 TD5 .. it's useless to you.

Not 100% the case. I was able to help a fellow member with a TD5 Defender, with his Two Amigos. The TD5 bit works fine. I think the VALEO bit does too. But it isn't much use the other way round as the D2 has more systems. Still, makes sense to get the right one for the car owned.

Everything else is spot on. Especially the bit about them being temperamental!

As for the alternator, I was driving the D2 to work one dark, wet early Melbourne winter morning when the car went Bong! Bong!. Never heard it do that before without me pressing something. Red light on on dash. OK says me, I'll get to work and sort it out in the arvo. Huh. Car had other ideas and failed to proceed after about a K. My 300TDi, I could remove the battery, jump the fuel cut-off with a drill battery and roll start it and it would go until it ran out of fuel. Probably not ideal for other road users or after dark, but it could get you out of trouble. My OKA is the same, Bosch VE injector pump.

[Nanna Truck]

This is very helpful, Tins. A friend of mine had a discovery td5 on which the oil pump bolt fell out, ruining the whole engine on his way to Brisbane. Land-Rover had to be dragged kicking and screaming to help as it was out of warranty by a month, but in the end they replaced the entire engine and lent him a car while it was being done. What a waste for them of an opportunity for very good publicity. My Defender was made in December 2002, so if anyone knows whether it is prone to the oil pump bolt problem, please tell me and if it is I'll definitely cure it before setting off to the Kimberley in May.

I see there is a NANOCOM Evolution for TD5 Defender kit. AU$634.41 excl VAT from the UK. Is that the one I want? If it's as good as reputed, it might not only solve this problem, but give a sense of security on a long trip in the wilderness.
Kinc

My 2002 TD5 Oil Pump Bolt was found "Half" out at 205,000km when the rear main seal was being replaced. A very lucky find. Suggest you
check in the near future
Regards
Harry

[AK83]

Not 100% the case. I was able to help a fellow member with a TD5 Defender, with his Two Amigos. The TD5 bit works fine. I think the VALEO bit does too. But it isn't much use the other way round as the D2 has more systems. Still, makes sense to get the right one for the car owned.

.....

Ah! I can't really remember. But, a while ago now .. a while ago, as in ... my memory is pretty much useless ... I helped a mate with his TD5 defer, I could have sworn that it wouldn't talk easily to the Defer, but only work in instruments mode.

I can't really remember other than, in the end I got the Defender add on to help with something that wouldn't go away.

So my memory is that I needed the Defer software to do whatever the issue was back then.
Maybe you're right, and it does do most, if not all, TD5 analysing definitely instruments.

I spent the last 3 days driving around the SA border area with the missues. simplicity is nice to have, such as a vehicle that doesn't need an alternator or something, but I would have preferred the additional power and comfiness of the D2.

Oh! .. poor me .. had to put up with a D1 huh! [biggrin]
(nah! .. had a ball, and little chugga tdi went great ... and man oh man .. that Murray river is frightening when in flood!)

[shack]

Any nanocom unlocked to any TD5 (defender or D2)should do all TD5 related operations on any TD5.

[Tins]

Any nanocom unlocked to any TD5 (defender or D2)should do all TD5 related operations on any TD5.

They do.

[MDAkinc]

Offer someone on here a carton of beer if they will swing past with a diagnostic tool that is compatible.It's basically impossible to do anything without this... And will be the cheapest and easiest first option towards getting it sorted.I have now (9 Jan) ordered a Nanocom for Defender td5 for $720. All the advice suggests that this is the sensible thing to do, for this problem and for the future. Thanks fpor this advice.

[MDAkinc]

MDAkinc. Today I put in a new injector harness, since everyone seems to think it is sensible to do it periodically anyway. It hasn't cured the problem. My local mechanic, Tim, kindly came down to my place with his analyser, but it didn't go back as far as a 2002 Defender. He thought the symptoms were like a Crank angle sensor, but most likely in the wiring to it since the sensor has been changed recently. But I've now bought a Nanocom anyway.

[Tins]

He thought the symptoms were like a Crank angle sensor, but most likely in the wiring to it since the sensor has been changed recently. But I've now bought a Nanocom anyway.

A few of us have been suggesting that all along. Not a negative comment, BTW, we're guessing. But just because something is new doesn't mean it's good. Also, where was it sourced from? They're not all the same. As suggested by Daz, clean it. This will have the added benefit of seeing if it's secure ( the air gap between it and the flywheel is important ), and give you an opportunity to inspect the wiring, as if it's damaged it's likely to be near the sensor/starter motor, but it plugs into the ECU in that big plug so there could be a problem there as well.

Good choice in the Nanocom. Take some time getting to know it. It's not the most intuitive device you'll ever use, but it is extremely powerful if you know how. Remember the steps you took to get somewhere, as if you change something it's very usefull to be able to find your way back[bigwhistle] I got my D2 to "Bong!" six times every time I turn it on. It never did it before and I really, really want it to stop.

[AK83]

So, as I read it at the moment:

The engine won't start at all now.
Cranks well(as in normal speed, just won't fire? And whilst cranking, a bit of smoke build up from exhaust.

Question(because you haven't specified it) is have you done a bleed sequence yet?

if it is injector seals, the issue we had when they were leaking, was similar to this.
At some point, it simply wouldn't start, and only do so after doing the bleed sequence.
Sometimes it needed multiple times.

So to be sure, and I reckon it'd be the same for the Defer. You turn on ignition to just before cranking(position II, I think it's called) and immediately pump accelerator pedal 5 times(count them!) it needs to be 5 times.
Then you'll have a yellow dash light on(can't recall which right now) and you will hear hissing and pumping noises.
Leave it do it's thing, which takes a few minutes.
Make sure battery is well charged, or have a charger on it to be sure too.

If you choose to do just the single bleed sequence, once it's finished(no hissing/pumping/dash light on), ign off, and try starting. I recall that a bit of accelerator pumping helped to get it started and lots of grey/white smoke once she started.

if you choose to do one more bleed, then as above, but I remember that it started much easier than with a single bleed.

Once we changed the seals, did a single bleed to get it going, started immediately after this single bleed .. cause the injectors were sealed properly now! [biggrin]

Reason I suggest to try starting with a bleed sequence, is that it's free, and just costs a few minutes, and can help to eliminate some potential causes.

[Tins]

Reason I suggest to try starting with a bleed sequence, is that it's free, and just costs a few minutes, and can help to eliminate some potential causes.

Good point. Mentally I dismissed this. When my CPS got caught up in the bellhousing ( don't ask....) obviously it wouldn't start. So I tried the bleed sequence many times. I'm not a fan of those ether sprays, but we tried one in desperation ( and exhaustion; pressure was mounting to move it ) and the thing would fire... well, of course it would. The point here is, it's to easy to focus on one thing. In the light of morning, with fresh eyes, methodically retracing steps, the problem became glaringly obvious and easy to remedy.

As you say, it costs nothing to try.

[Tins]

The one thing that makes me think it's not the seals, Arthur, is this:


then the engine stops and the check engine light comes on.

Would failing injector seals illuminate the MIL? The CPS will.

[AK83]

The one thing that makes me think it's not the seals, Arthur, is this:



Would failing injector seals illuminate the MIL? The CPS will.


[/COLOR]

Yep!
I don't recall the MIL light coming on either. But can't be 100% sure.
Also, you'd expect that if Bruce Davis did them, they'd have been done right .. again just an assumption.

[MDAkinc]

Thank you, Harry, for your info on a 2002 Defender with loose oil pump bolt. I will definitely replace it after reading your advice. MDAkink (Peter)

[MDAkinc]

I'm happy to say that my clever son John has found what seems to be the source of the vehicle not starting or running. As several of you thought, it turned out to be the crank angle sensor. Not the sensor itself, but a broken wire going into the connector on the sensor. It now runs, but the starting is still a little hesitant. Perhaps the other wire needs examining, too. John also wonders whether we should consider a new engine wiring loom. Anyway, many thanks to all of you who have taken an interest in this. I will report developments. MDAkinc (Peter)

[shack]

I'm happy to say that my clever son John has found what seems to be the source of the vehicle not starting or running. As several of you thought, it turned out to be the crank angle sensor. Not the sensor itself, but a broken wire going into the connector on the sensor. It now runs, but the starting is still a little hesitant. Perhaps the other wire needs examining, too. John also wonders whether we should consider a new engine wiring loom. Anyway, many thanks to all of you who have taken an interest in this. I will report developments. MDAkinc (Peter)Wiring loom is not the worst idea, but I'd be checking what the rest looks like first.

With the starting issues, when the nanocom comes, check for faults, if it says "noisy crank" that can be a reason it's hard to start.

It's usually either a starter motor on the way out creating interference, or something Wrong with the cps itself.

[Tins]

Wiring loom is not the worst idea, but I'd be checking what the rest looks like first.



The insulation on the wiring going to my CPS was quite stiff and brittle. I replaced it back as close to the place where it entered the loom as I could.

Not sure about a Deefer, but replacing the engine loom on my Disco is not a job I would relish.

[MDAkinc]

"Defender 130 td5 engine cuts out"

Thanks to all the people who have helped me with this problem. I'm glad to say that it's almost fixed. The plug to the crank angle sensor was dodgy. My son John mended it but we really wanted a new plug. I tried J-Car, British Motor Imports, and my local bloke, Tim, who was very helpful. But it seems you can't buy a wiring harness component individually. However, John noticed that there are numerous places in the L-R where this same plug is used, so we pinched a good one from the right parking light, and put the dodgy one in there. We then connected up my new Nanocom, which said there was no problem. Except there is a small problem. The engine runs fine, but hesitates slightly on starting.

Perversely, if it's been left for a few days, it usually starts instantly, the way it should. But if I run it, then turn it off, and try to start it again, it often goes for several rotations without starting. If I turn the ignition off and try again, it starts immediately. I can certainly live with this, but I want to be sure that this is not something that will develop into a problem after we start off for the Kimberley on 1 June.

The car had another problem which I've now fixed. My add-on volt meter was reading off the scale on the high side. I discovered a poor connection from the main battery, and a poor connection from the selector switch (main or auxiliary) to the gauge. All good now, but I had wondered if this could have had any bearing on the starting problem.

I changed the injector wiring harness two or three months ago. Recently we had a look at the connector plug (red) from the engine to the computer. There was still oil in the connector. This didn't surprise me because I thought it would naturally take some time for the oil which started its journey from the engine after I changed the injector loom to reach the computer. We cleaned all the oil out at the computer end, but decided not to open the computer. In any case, the computer side of the plug looked impervious to oil getting into the computer itself.

My question now for the forum is should I spend $1500 for a (genuine) engine wiring harness before our big trip?
Kinc

[Discofender]

Individual wiring harness components are available from Pace in the UK, All Products (https://pace4x4.com/shop/ols/products?page=1)

I looked at getting some to replace heat affected wiring. However, I have currently made do with a some dodgy soldiering until funds allow.

I wouldn't think the whole harness would need replacing unless damage is clearly evident.

[RANDLOVER]

"Defender 130 td5 engine cuts out"

.................
My question now for the forum is should I spend $1500 for a (genuine) engine wiring harness before our big trip?
Kinc

The newish plug may be identical on the outside, but be a bit different, loose or dirty to still cause starting issues?

[Tins]

In any case, the computer side of the plug looked impervious to oil getting into the computer itself.



It looks impervious, but in my experience it isn't. Mine had traces of oil inside. Now, mine had been opened previously to have a "performance" chip hard soldered in, so maybe that's why.

[MDAkinc]

MDAKink here

To bring you up to date on this pesky problem. Since I have replaced the crank angle sensor plug, the engine no longer cuts out. It runs fine once it has started. Until a couple of days ago, the only fault was that it took two goes for it to start. I was starting to think perhaps I could live with this. But then it refused to start after three or four goes, then fired on one or two cylinders, then ran very feebly on a couple of cylinders, and then ran normally. Once started, it ran fine.

My wife and I are planning to leave on 1 June on a three-month 4wd camping trip to the Kimberley. The Land-Rover has a tipping tray on it at home, but for trips I bolt a custom-made camper body directly onto the chassis instead. We are used to being completely self-contained for days or even weeks on end, and have done many overseas overland trips in this vehicle. But when my wife heard the most recent news of the unreliable starting, she said, "Well, I'm not going unless you get that fixed. I don't want to be camped on some track in the Gibson Desert and not be sure if the thing will start in the morning." Nor do I.

The Land-Rover has been extensively modified to suit our purposes, so even if a new one were available, or we could get a newer used one, it would be a mammoth and expensive task to re-create all the modifications. So, I am prepared to spend more or less whatever it takes to restore this one to reliability. The frustrating thing is that I still don't know what the problem is. However, thanks to many helpful suggestions from the forum, I am tending to the idea that I should replace the engine wiring harness and, if that does not do the job, the ECU.

What do you people think? I will as usual be grateful for your opinions.

Peter

[discorevy]

Injector Seals. These have been mentioned on the forum as possible culprits. These were changed by Bruce Davis last July at considerable cost. Is it worth changing them again? I now see online that changing them is simple. Will the engine run if, say, one injector has not been done up properly?



It really sounds like injector seal symptoms, and the cost shouldn't be considerable to replace ( <$600 including seals, Injector harness and rocker cover gasket ).

Turn on the ignition ( engine off ) and listen to the fuel pump, it should be a quiet hum.
If it has a higher or varied pitch like it's cavitating, that is another injector seal fail symptom.

The other item I've had to rectify which can have similar symptoms if bad enough is incorrect cam timing after head replacement.

I don't know if you have had head work done on it.

Now that you have a Nanocom, see what faults, if any, are logged.

[MDAkinc]

In my last post I said I would report developments. Despite all the many things I have done or had done since March last year, the erratic starting issue with my Defender would not go away. So, finally I gave up and took it to Bruce Davis, the L-R guru in South Windsor, a week ago. Not cheap ($1450) but worth it because he found and cured the defect in a few days. Those of you who suspected the crank angle sensor turned out to be right. We had put in a new one and my son John noticed a damaged wire leading to the sensor and repaired that.

That cured a separate problem, namely that it wouldn't run at all. But the erratic starting persisted until Bruce found that Humberstones, the people in Victor Harbor who put the new clutch in in March last year, had pulled the crank angle sensor wires out of the back of the plug and put them back the wrong way round. They are colour coded and there is a right and a left one. Bruce swapped them round, and now the car starts perfectly. The thing has not started since the day we picked it up from Humberstones until now.

So there you are. A little professional knowledge is worth a lot of money. And now we are good to go on our three-month tour to the Kimberley starting on 1 June.

Thank you again to all those people who took an interest in the problem and offered intelligent potential solutions.

Best wishes
Peter, MDAKinc

[Carslil Jim]

This received from MDAKinc who is unable to log in.....

4 Aug 2023 Hamelin Pool, WA

Land-Rover engine fault


Yesterday, 3 August, the engine suddenly stopped as we were turning into the Overlander roadhouse to get fuel. Because the fuel gauge does not work reliably when reading the main tank, it is difficult to keep track of how much is in that tank, so I interpreted the engine stopping as my running out of fuel, particularly as I knew we were low.
I went through the ‘out of fuel’ routine to re-prime the engine: leave ignition off for 15 seconds, then turn on for 30 seconds. Do this 5 times and then press the accelerator to the floor and start the engine. It worked. (We ran out of fuel on the rear (main) tank between Esperance and Perth about three weeks ago. I went through the routine and the engine worked fine until it stopped yesterday.)
We then set off from Overlander on the road west to Denham but after five ks the engine stopped again. I repeated the re-prime sequence and off it went, only to stop again after another 5 ks. This pattern was repeated until we limped into Hamelin Pool camp site, where we spent last night.
When we got there, we wondered whether we had stirred up dirt in the tank by running out and whether this could have blocked the fuel filter. So, I put a new fuel filter on.
I drove back up the road for five ks to the junction with the main road, but it packed up at the junction. This time I gave it the computer re-set treatment (per Phil): turn ignition on and wait for the fuel pump to stop. Press the accelerator to the floor 5 times until the check engine light comes on, and then leave the ignition on until the system has cycled and the pump has stopped. Press the accelerator to the floor and start it.
After that, it started fine and I drove 7 ks up the road where I turned around, so I had done 15 ks by the time I got back to the Hamelin Pool turnoff, where, as I backed off the accelerator, it quit again.
I gave it another re-set treatment and drove back to the campground where Di noticed that fuel was streaming out of the fuel filter. It turned out that I hadn’t screwed the drain plug in the bottom in firmly enough. I did it now and the leak stopped.
This morning I gave the engine the re-set treatment and it started first go. But as we drove off it belched white smoke and quit only three ks up the road.
I gave it the re-set treatment again, but this time when I tried to start it it wouldn‘t turn over one complete revolution. It felt as though something in the combustion chamber of one cylinder was stopping the piston. I kept trying and eventually, with some unhealthy knocking sounds, it cranked and started, whereupon it ran normally until we got back to the campground. I left it running for half an hour while I talked to John and to Bruce Davis. Bruce Davis didn’t really know: could be injectors … Or dirty fuel. There is a supplementary filter in the fuel pump, he said, so it could be worth checking that.
John suggested checking the wire connections at the top of the fuel tank, so that combined with Bruce Davis’s suggestion makes it worth while to take the fuel pump out, which I will do today.
The other thing is that while the engine was idling for more than half an hour, it ran fine, without the knocking that we detected after it had failed to crank, but it was putting out smelly smoke the whole time, perhaps a faint bluish white colour.
So here we are at Hamelin Pool where we’ve got showers and toilets for $30 and we can tinker without undue stress. But the lingering thought is, what do we do if we can’t cure this? We could stagger on to Denman, perhaps, 100 ks away but if we can’t get anyone to help fix it, maybe we will have to end the trip and have it sent back to Mad Dog on a truck.

5 August: update.


We have decided to get the LR to Perth to Kevin Faulconbridge at Jordan Rovertech motors. He’s been recommended by John, whom we met at Hamelin Pool, and by Phil who works here and who knows Land Rovers. However, Kevin can’t start to look at until Monday 14 August. We’ve booked that date with him.
Yesterday I took the fuel pump out, and checked that the screen filter in the ottom wasn’t direty. I sprayed the connector plug with contact cleaner.
Phil came over this morning and perfected my system for purging air. (I’ve described his system above.) It started at the end of it. I left it to idle for half an hour, by the end of which it was putting out foul-smelling diesel smoke. As I drove off that turned to white smoke, which dissipated after two ks. Soon after that, the engine started to miss, and stopped. And so on.
Paul, the RAC man in Denham (100 ks from here near Monkey Mia) says he can take us to Perth but it’ll be expensive. He can take us as well as the LR. But he says Steve and Shane Whyatt, LR people in Geraldton, are good. So I’ll ring them on Monday. And they’ve got a tilt tray dual cab which could come and take us and the LR to Geraldton.

[discorevy]

What is being described as the " computer rest procedure" is actually the bleed sequence. no matter.

If MDAKinc has access to a nanocom either you or he can send me a P.M. and I will talk him through it.

If he doesn't, then it'll be guesswork, as in, it could be, Injector washers, Injector, or harness, oil in ECU, fuel pump, or bad fuel .

If he desperately needs it fixed pronto, he can get it to here and I will do it when it arrives, problem with that is I'm near Albany.

Whyatts would be good as long as they are still familiar with the 20+year old TD5.

Hamelin bay isn't too bad a place to be stuck.

[PWat]

Whyatts would be good as long as they are still familiar with the 20+year old TD5.

I had a good experience with Whyatts 2 years ago with my TD5.

[gavinwibrow]

I had a good experience with Whyatts 2 years ago with my TD5.

Definitely recommend Whyatts in Geraldton from personal experience. Not only have they been the LR gurus in the district for many years, but are also the RAC agents for all breakdowns, tows etc.

[MDAkinc]

11 August

Shane Whyatt of Geraldton has fixed it. Injector seals were the problem.

Strange as we had had them replaced by Bruce Davies of South Windsor last year.

Shane has given us excellent service.


4 Aug 2023 Hamelin Pool, WA
Land-Rover engine fault


Yesterday, 3 August 2023, the engine suddenly stopped as we were turning into the Overlander roadhouse to get fuel. Because the fuel gauge does not work reliably when reading the main tank, it is difficult to keep track of how much is in that tank, so I interpreted the engine stopping as my running out of fuel, particularly as I knew we were low.
I went through the ‘out of fuel’ routine to re-prime the engine, prescribed in the Land-Rover owner’s manual: leave ignition off for 15 seconds, then turn on for 30 seconds. Do this 5 times and then press the accelerator to the floor and start the engine. It worked. (We ran out of fuel on the rear (main) tank between Esperance and Perth about three weeks ago. I went through the routine and the engine worked fine until it stopped yesterday.)
We then set off from Overlander on the road west to Denham but after five ks the engine stopped again. I repeated the re-prime sequence and off it went, only to stop again after another 5 ks. This pattern was repeated until we limped into Hamelin Pool camp site, where we spent last night.
When we got there, we wondered whether we had stirred up dirt in the tank by running out and whether this could have blocked the fuel filter. So, I put a new fuel filter on.
I drove back up the road for five ks to the junction with the main road, but it packed up at the junction. This time I gave it the computer re-set treatment (per Phil): turn ignition on and wait for the fuel pump to stop. Press the accelerator to the floor 5 times until the check engine light comes on, and then leave the ignition on until the system has cycled and the pump has stopped. Press the accelerator to the floor and start it.
After that, it started fine and I drove 7 ks up the road where I turned around, so I had done 15 ks by the time I got back to the Hamelin Pool turnoff, where, as I backed off the accelerator, it quit again.
I gave it another re-set treatment and drove back to the campground where Di noticed that fuel was streaming out of the fuel filter. It turned out that I hadn’t screwed the drain plug in the bottom in firmly enough. I did it now and the leak stopped.
This morning I gave the engine the re-set treatment and it started first go. But as we drove off it belched white smoke and quit only three ks up the road.
I gave it the re-set treatment again, but this time when I tried to start it it wouldn‘t turn over one complete revolution. It felt as though something in the combustion chamber of one cylinder was stopping the piston. I kept trying and eventually, with some unhealthy knocking sounds, it cranked and started, whereupon it ran normally until we got back to the campground. I left it running for half an hour while I talked to John and to Bruce Davis. Bruce Davis didn’t really know: could be injectors … Or dirty fuel. There is a supplementary filter in the fuel pump, he said, so it could be worth checking that.
John suggested checking the wire connections at the top of the fuel tank, so that combined with Bruce Davis’s suggestion makes it worthwhile to take the fuel pump out, which I will do today.
The other thing is that while the engine was idling for more than half an hour, it ran fine, without the knocking that we detected after it had failed to crank, but it was putting out smelly smoke the whole time, perhaps a faint bluish white colour.
So here we are at Hamelin Pool where we’ve got showers and toilets for $30 and we can tinker without undue stress. But the lingering thought is, what do we do if we can’t cure this? We could stagger on to Denman, perhaps, 100 ks away but if we can’t get anyone to help fix it, maybe we will have to end the trip and have it sent back to Mad Dog on a truck.

5 August: update.


We have decided to get the LR to Perth to Kevin Faulconbridge at Jordan Rovertech motors. He’s been recommended by John, whom we met at Hamelin Pool, and by Phil who works here and who knows Land Rovers. However, Kevin can’t start to look at until Monday 14 August. We’ve booked that date with him.
Yesterday I took the fuel pump out, and checked that the screen filter in the bottom wasn’t dirty. I sprayed the connector plug with contact cleaner.
Phil came over this morning and perfected my system for purging air. (I’ve described his system above.) It started at the end of it. I left it to idle for half an hour, by the end of which it was putting out foul-smelling diesel smoke. As I drove off that turned to white smoke, which dissipated after two ks. Soon after that, the engine started to miss, and stopped. And so on.
Paul, the RAC man in Denham (100 ks from here near Monkey Mia) says he can take us to Perth but it’ll be expensive. He can take us as well as the LR. But he says Steve and Shane Whyatt, LR people in Geraldton, are good. So, I’ll ring them on Monday. And they’ve got a tilt tray dual cab which could come and take us and the LR to Geraldton.


7 August 2023 update
History of LR work since March 2022
March 2022: Clutch thrust bearing seized and melted its case onto the shaft from the engine, so I had to drive 700 ks to Victor Harbor, SA, without the clutch. March 2022: New clutch, flywheel, and thrust bearing fitted by Humberstone’s garage.
After the new clutch, we had starting problems all the way back to Sydney. The Land-Rover usually starts instantly, but after the clutch replacement, especially first thing in the morning, it would take a bit of cranking before it started, but it always did.
The problem turned out to be partly that Humberstones in Victor Harbor had put the starter bolts in but not done them up, so by the time we got back to Sydney, it was nearly falling off. We fixed that, but in May or June 2022, the LR started a new problem: it would drive normally for about 8 ks, then stop altogether and not start for about half an hour, after which it started and ran normally until I was almost back at home. This pattern was repeated.
Crank Angle Sensor. We replaced the crank angle sensor, but this did not fix the problem. Then it turned out that the clutch replacers had pulled one of the wires off the crank angle sensor and not re-attached it properly. We fixed that, and the car fault was much improved, but starting still hesitant.
Injector Seals Bruce Davis in south Windsor, Sydney, replaced the injector seals and copper washers in July 2022. That improved the starting, but did not altogether cure the problem.
EGR valve. I deleted this in August 2022 in accordance with online advice.
Fuel pump. I put in a new fuel pump in December 2022. Starting problems continued, but car ran OK once started.
Fuel pressure regulator. In March 2023 my son John rebuilt the regulator with a kit. He tested the resulting pressure and it was correct.
Crank angle sensor wiring. In April 2023 Bruce Davis, the LR man in Sydney, found that the clutch installers in Victor Harbor in March 2022 had pulled the wires off while removing the gearbox and had replaced them in reversed order. Bruce’s man Tino found this out and replaced them in correct positions. This greatly improved the starting, although it gradually appeared that I still needed to give the fuel pump about an extra ten seconds before engaging the starter first thing in the morning.
Fuel Cooler. In June 2023 coolant leaked from the fuel cooler. I took it apart and fitted new seals. It has been fine since.
Present problem: car will only start after I go through the 5-stroke purging procedure each time, whether the car has run recently or not. It runs well and normally for 4 or 5 ks and then misses and stops.

[4 Aug 2023 Hamelin Pool, WA
Land-Rover engine fault


Yesterday, 3 August 2023, the engine suddenly stopped as we were turning into the Overlander roadhouse to get fuel. Because the fuel gauge does not work reliably when reading the main tank, it is difficult to keep track of how much is in that tank, so I interpreted the engine stopping as my running out of fuel, particularly as I knew we were low.
I went through the ‘out of fuel’ routine to re-prime the engine, prescribed in the Land-Rover owner’s manual: leave ignition off for 15 seconds, then turn on for 30 seconds. Do this 5 times and then press the accelerator to the floor and start the engine. It worked. (We ran out of fuel on the rear (main) tank between Esperance and Perth about three weeks ago. I went through the routine and the engine worked fine until it stopped yesterday.)
We then set off from Overlander on the road west to Denham but after five ks the engine stopped again. I repeated the re-prime sequence and off it went, only to stop again after another 5 ks. This pattern was repeated until we limped into Hamelin Pool camp site, where we spent last night.
When we got there, we wondered whether we had stirred up dirt in the tank by running out and whether this could have blocked the fuel filter. So, I put a new fuel filter on.
I drove back up the road for five ks to the junction with the main road, but it packed up at the junction. This time I gave it the computer re-set treatment (per Phil): turn ignition on and wait for the fuel pump to stop. Press the accelerator to the floor 5 times until the check engine light comes on, and then leave the ignition on until the system has cycled and the pump has stopped. Press the accelerator to the floor and start it.
After that, it started fine and I drove 7 ks up the road where I turned around, so I had done 15 ks by the time I got back to the Hamelin Pool turnoff, where, as I backed off the accelerator, it quit again.
I gave it another re-set treatment and drove back to the campground where Di noticed that fuel was streaming out of the fuel filter. It turned out that I hadn’t screwed the drain plug in the bottom in firmly enough. I did it now and the leak stopped.
This morning I gave the engine the re-set treatment and it started first go. But as we drove off it belched white smoke and quit only three ks up the road.
I gave it the re-set treatment again, but this time when I tried to start it it wouldn‘t turn over one complete revolution. It felt as though something in the combustion chamber of one cylinder was stopping the piston. I kept trying and eventually, with some unhealthy knocking sounds, it cranked and started, whereupon it ran normally until we got back to the campground. I left it running for half an hour while I talked to John and to Bruce Davis. Bruce Davis didn’t really know: could be injectors … Or dirty fuel. There is a supplementary filter in the fuel pump, he said, so it could be worth checking that.
John suggested checking the wire connections at the top of the fuel tank, so that combined with Bruce Davis’s suggestion makes it worthwhile to take the fuel pump out, which I will do today.
The other thing is that while the engine was idling for more than half an hour, it ran fine, without the knocking that we detected after it had failed to crank, but it was putting out smelly smoke the whole time, perhaps a faint bluish white colour.
So here we are at Hamelin Pool where we’ve got showers and toilets for $30 and we can tinker without undue stress. But the lingering thought is, what do we do if we can’t cure this? We could stagger on to Denman, perhaps, 100 ks away but if we can’t get anyone to help fix it, maybe we will have to end the trip and have it sent back to Mad Dog on a truck.

5 August: update.


We have decided to get the LR to Perth to Kevin Faulconbridge at Jordan Rovertech motors. He’s been recommended by John, whom we met at Hamelin Pool, and by Phil who works here and who knows Land Rovers. However, Kevin can’t start to look at until Monday 14 August. We’ve booked that date with him.
Yesterday I took the fuel pump out, and checked that the screen filter in the bottom wasn’t dirty. I sprayed the connector plug with contact cleaner.
Phil came over this morning and perfected my system for purging air. (I’ve described his system above.) It started at the end of it. I left it to idle for half an hour, by the end of which it was putting out foul-smelling diesel smoke. As I drove off that turned to white smoke, which dissipated after two ks. Soon after that, the engine started to miss, and stopped. And so on.
Paul, the RAC man in Denham (100 ks from here near Monkey Mia) says he can take us to Perth but it’ll be expensive. He can take us as well as the LR. But he says Steve and Shane Whyatt, LR people in Geraldton, are good. So, I’ll ring them on Monday. And they’ve got a tilt tray dual cab which could come and take us and the LR to Geraldton.


7 August 2023 update
History of LR work since March 2022
March 2022: Clutch thrust bearing seized and melted its case onto the shaft from the engine, so I had to drive 700 ks to Victor Harbor, SA, without the clutch. March 2022: New clutch, flywheel, and thrust bearing fitted by Humberstone’s garage.
After the new clutch, we had starting problems all the way back to Sydney. The Land-Rover usually starts instantly, but after the clutch replacement, especially first thing in the morning, it would take a bit of cranking before it started, but it always did.
The problem turned out to be partly that Humberstones in Victor Harbor had put the starter bolts in but not done them up, so by the time we got back to Sydney, it was nearly falling off. We fixed that, but in May or June 2022, the LR started a new problem: it would drive normally for about 8 ks, then stop altogether and not start for about half an hour, after which it started and ran normally until I was almost back at home. This pattern was repeated.
Crank Angle Sensor. We replaced the crank angle sensor, but this did not fix the problem. Then it turned out that the clutch replacers had pulled one of the wires off the crank angle sensor and not re-attached it properly. We fixed that, and the car fault was much improved, but starting still hesitant.
Injector Seals Bruce Davis in south Windsor, Sydney, replaced the injector seals and copper washers in July 2022. That improved the starting, but did not altogether cure the problem.
EGR valve. I deleted this in August 2022 in accordance with online advice.
Fuel pump. I put in a new fuel pump in December 2022. Starting problems continued, but car ran OK once started.
Fuel pressure regulator. In March 2023 my son John rebuilt the regulator with a kit. He tested the resulting pressure and it was correct.
Crank angle sensor wiring. In April 2023 Bruce Davis, the LR man in Sydney, found that the clutch installers in Victor Harbor in March 2022 had pulled the wires off while removing the gearbox and had replaced them in reversed order. Bruce’s man Tino found this out and replaced them in correct positions. This greatly improved the starting, although it gradually appeared that I still needed to give the fuel pump about an extra ten seconds before engaging the starter first thing in the morning.
Fuel Cooler. In June 2023 coolant leaked from the fuel cooler. I took it apart and fitted new seals. It has been fine since.
Present problem: car will only start after I go through the 5-stroke purging procedure each time, whether the car has run recently or not. It runs well and normally for 4 or 5 ks and then misses and stops.

QUOTE=MDAkinc;3174849]My td5 Defender 130 (2002, 232,000 ks) runs and drives perfectly for about 15 minutes, and then the engine stops and the check engine light comes on. Attempts to restart it result in it firing feebly on 1 or 2 cylinders, but not enough to keep it going.

Then, if I leave it for about half an hour, it suddenly recovers and drives normally until the next cut-out, etc etc.

In my attempt to solve this problem I have put in a new fuel pump, a new fuel filter, and the two air bleed valves in the fuel filter connectors. All to no avail.

Another symptom, possibly a red herring, is that the fuel filter gets very hot. I don't know if this is normal or not.

Any ideas would be much appreciated.

Kinc[/QUOTE]

[AK83]

11 August

Shane Whyatt of Geraldton has fixed it. Injector seals were the problem.

Strange as we had had them replaced by Bruce Davies of South Windsor last year.


.....

Can happen, has happened if I recall correctly.

Why, not sure. maybe a dodgy o-ring or copper washer, or install, or not so clean injector seat in the head.

Did the D2s injector seals, no worries(had the same symptoms as you described). Still good 5 years later. [thumbsupbig]

Only recently did the seals on a Peugeot HDi, and still had leaks, so had to redo them again and no problems second time around.