Thought i had joined the broken crank club but NO!

[Bulletman]

Gday All
90km/h towing the van , felt a slight jerk then oil light comes on and the dash starts lighting up and the engine dies..
Tried a quick start but didnt fire so called the tilt tray.
Only codes that stand out is cam sensor out of range or something to that effect..others are just a flow on i think.. fuel rail press low , plus loss of comms to suspension etc

So a quick question... whats the easiest way to check for broken crank ? Cant see rocker gear from oil filler from what i can see..

Car has been meticulously maintained , belts done at 160k and upgraded oil pump as well.. oil every 10,000 or 6 months so would be surprised if its broken timing belt or hpfp belt..car is at 213k km. Is 2008 tdv6..

Any suggestions on what to check appreciated..
Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoJeffster]

So sorry to hear buddy

Cam sensor out of range would imply the crank isn’t in time with the cam (crank sensor and cam sensor out of sync, which might tell me the front and back of the crank aren’t joined at the hip anymore. There could be other causes, but I think you’re right.

[Bulletman]

So sorry to hear buddy

Joys of the tdv6 engine.. dont work on tuesday so will make a start and see whats what...

just a bit annoyed we just spent 8k getting a gearbox and torque converter recon..

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoJeffster]

Joys of the tdv6 engine.. dont work on tuesday so will make a start and see whats what...

just a bit annoyed we just spent 8k getting a gearbox and torque converter recon..

Cheers Bulletman

What engine is it?

[Bulletman]

What engine is it?

2.7 tdv6 @ 213,000 ks

[PerthDisco]

Great sadness but at least Terry engines are available for a swap.

[Bulletman]

Great sadness but at least Terry engines are available for a swap.

Yes is an option ... but with how cheap these are advertised now its line ball if worth putting more $$ into it or part it out and say goodbye to LR ownership..

Will see what i find tuesday then look at pros and cons of an engine swap .. capable of doing the swap myself but will need to read up on it then try and find a engine that the wreckers havent put the LR tax on ..

Fun times ahead.

Cheers bulletman

[PerthDisco]

Yes is an option ... but with how cheap these are advertised now its line ball if worth putting more $$ into it or part it out and say goodbye to LR ownership..

Will see what i find tuesday then look at pros and cons of an engine swap .. capable of doing the swap myself but will need to read up on it then try and find a engine that the wreckers havent put the LR tax on ..

Fun times ahead.

Cheers bulletman

Happy to help.

[Bulletman]

Happy to help.

Thanks for the offer.. will see what tuesday brings and go from there... but im prepared for worse case scenario..

Cheers Bulletman

[101RRS]

Noting that the 2.7 does not tend to break cranks like the 3.0 but it is not unknown - you might be lucky - I hope so.

[Bulletman]

Noting that the 2.7 does not tend to break cranks like the 3.0 but it is not unknown - you might be lucky - I hope so.

Me too..

Im very surprised by the lack of noise , just a small jolt like you hit something lying on the road then basically no rattle or shaking ... just the dings from the faults starting to cascade on the dash..

Hopefully its a good sign but ... not holding my breath.

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoDB]

Sorry to hear this.

Even though you note unlikely to be the oil pump, if the timing belt tensioner mount bolt has been reused, or is not genuine, they are known to snap the bolt after the oil pump has been replaced.

I have also seen pictures of a failed TDV6 where bizarrely one of the timing belt pulleys actually failed - snapped all the spokes on the main pulley on one of the heads.

Do hope it is a simpler problem.

[Bulletman]

Sorry to hear this.

Even though you note unlikely to be the oil pump, if the timing belt tensioner mount bolt has been reused, or is not genuine, they are known to snap the bolt after the oil pump has been replaced.

I have also seen pictures of a failed TDV6 where bizarrely one of the timing belt pulleys actually failed - snapped all the spokes on the main pulley on one of the heads.

Do hope it is a simpler problem.

I did the oil pump and the timing belt myself and a new bolt was used.. i ordered it as a full kit so i can only assume it was the correct bolt.. but in todays world anything is possible i guess..

I got a new hpfp fitted and belt done by the indy in Darwin as i was working away when i started to have the dreaded fuel faulting so im assuming he replaced the belt using good quality parts..

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoDB]

I did the oil pump and the timing belt myself and a new bolt was used.. i ordered it as a full kit so i can only assume it was the correct bolt.. but in todays world anything is possible i guess..


So just some advanced warning - I won’t say much more as I truly hope it is not one of the factors in this situation.

The supplier who sells those full OEM kits does not include genuine timing belt pulley bolts. They would need to be sourced from LR.

Of course this is all just speculation at this point. Let’s see what you find.

[DiscoDB]

By the way - I believe you can inspect the timing belt from a hole viewed from underneath.

If it has failed, the belt would be loose on the bottom drive pulley so you may be able to see this without removing the timing belt cover.

[loanrangie]

Noting that the 2.7 does not tend to break cranks like the 3.0 but it is not unknown - you might be lucky - I hope so.

Yep more likely to be oil pump if not updated or cam chain, run your hand down the timing cover on the drivers side and see if you can feel a crack.

[DiscoJeffster]

Yep more likely to be oil pump if not updated or cam chain, run your hand down the timing cover on the drivers side and see if you can feel a crack.

In the original post he states it had a new updated oil pump.

[loanrangie]

In the original post he states it had a new updated oil pump.

Doesn't mean the tensioner or bolt hasnt failed.

[PerthDisco]

Doesn't mean the tensioner or bolt hasnt failed.

This bolt fail theory is nasty as it’s a 10.9 strength bolt done up to a ridiculously low 26Nm so you’d be unlucky.

[Bulletman]

Sorry to hear this.

Even though you note unlikely to be the oil pump, if the timing belt tensioner mount bolt has been reused, or is not genuine, they are known to snap the bolt after the oil pump has been replaced.

I have also seen pictures of a failed TDV6 where bizarrely one of the timing belt pulleys actually failed - snapped all the spokes on the main pulley on one of the heads.

Do hope it is a simpler problem.

Well Sir you get the chocolates... tensioner bolt snapped

[PerthDisco]

Well Sir you get the chocolates... tensioner bolt snapped

OMG!!!!

Will have to seriously consider updating to LR part if this was sourced from AF as my new one was replaced 20k kms ago.

[Bulletman]

OMG!!!!

Will have to seriously consider updating to LR part if this was sourced from AF as my new one was replaced 20k kms ago.

Im trying to remember where i sourced it but 100% sure it wasnt AF .. problem is i done it in about 2017 ish and ive moved states and jobs so all my records of purchases are gone..

I wont name where i think as it would be a guess and i dont want to create any fear more than what it already has.

Cheers Bulletman

[PerthDisco]

PM’d you info on D3 heads for sale currently

Spec should be

M8 x 75mm 10.9

So if you can sight the head of bolt and check for 10.9 stamp would be interesting

[DiscoJeffster]

Doesn't mean the tensioner or bolt hasnt failed.

And you weren’t wrong

[DiscoJeffster]

I presume it’s likely that the engine (heads) is still toast given it’s an interference engine. Valves likely bent ….

[Bulletman]

I presume it’s likely that the engine (heads) is still toast given it’s an interference engine. Valves likely bent ….

I seem to recall a LR time video saying they are not an interference engine but i just cant find it to clarify..

The drivers side cam sprocket has sheered away from the rubber centre but the crank and passenger side cam seem to rotate freely enough..

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoJeffster]

I seem to recall a LR time video saying they are not an interference engine but i just cant find it to clarify..

The drivers side cam sprocket has sheered away from the rubber centre but the crank and passenger side cam seem to rotate freely enough..

Cheers Bulletman

I think you’ll find the cam sprocket sheered says it all.

[Bulletman]

I think you’ll find the cam sprocket sheered says it all.

Yes true but trying to keep some sort of positivity even tho i know its not looking very positive..

Cheers Bulletman

[101RRS]

I seem to recall a LR time video saying they are not an interference engine but i just cant find it to clarify..



I don't know what LR Time is but the engine is an interference engine - that is why when the tensioner fails the valves hit the pistons and damage is done - in its simplest fail it is just cam bearing bolts but in its worst case damaged pistons, vlaves, and associated gear.

One thing it does show is how the newer oil pumps are much stronger than the old ones as the bolt broke rather than the housing.

Hopefully you can repair the engine.

Garry

[loanrangie]

I presume it’s likely that the engine (heads) is still toast given it’s an interference engine. Valves likely bent ….Valves on these rarely bend as they are vertical in the head, rockers take the brunt of the force.
I got lucky when mine went and only bent the LH exhaust camshaft and broke 2 cam cap bolts.

[Bulletman]

So has anyone actually pulled the heads on a failed engine .. either tensioner and /or crank failure and confirmed they are an interference engine... not that it really matters at this stage but it would certainly claify things..

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoJeffster]

So has anyone actually pulled the heads on a failed engine .. either tensioner and /or crank failure and confirmed they are an interference engine... not that it really matters at this stage but it would certainly claify things..

Cheers Bulletman

Read one post up

[DazzaTD5]

*yes, just like any half modern engine, its interference. You don't get the power outputs of a modern engine by having 2 feet of clearance between the valves and the pistons.
*both the 2.7 and 3.0 bend valves quite readily.
*I have had in engines that broke the tensioner bolt. The cause generally is a heavy handed monkey and re-using the old bolts.
*The tensioner bolts is one I use genuine, as bolts are hard enough to trace the origin of manufacture.
*yes the bolt should be marked 10.9

*Using a 1/2 drive torque wrench really isnt the tool for the job. a small 3/8 drive mid range pref digital torque wrench is what should be used.

[101RRS]

If it was not an inference engine then heads/valves would not get damaged when the can belt fails.

[Bulletman]

If it was not an inference engine then heads/valves would not get damaged when the can belt fails.

I fully understand that .. it was more that has it actually been confirmed that it does do it , or, was it just the general theory ..
Dazza set the record straight and thats good..

Bulletman

[loanrangie]

If you have the time and the inclination, remove the valve covers and check the rockers, cams and chains.
I was prepared to replace my engine but i stripped it down and checked all the gear then decided to re-assemble and see if it ran - done 32k since.

[Bulletman]

If you have the time and the inclination, remove the valve covers and check the rockers, cams and chains.
I was prepared to replace my engine but i stripped it down and checked all the gear then decided to re-assemble and see if it ran - done 32k since.

Yep that is my plan.. will start to do the drivers side first as this seems to be the side that seems to have issues and will go from there..
I will pull the head if needed just to see whats what..

Cheers Bulletman

[DazzaTD5]

Yep that is my plan.. will start to do the drivers side first as this seems to be the side that seems to have issues and will go from there..
I will pull the head if needed just to see whats what..

Cheers Bulletman

IMHO...

I would pull the starter motor, put another timing belt on it, time it up, wind it over by hand, see if anything kisses anything. go from there...

[Bulletman]

IMHO...

I would pull the starter motor, put another timing belt on it, time it up, wind it over by hand, see if anything kisses anything. go from there...
That was my original plan but the drivers side cam pulley has seperated from the rubber inner piece and it rotates very easily and looking down the oil filler i cant see the camshaft turning .. so i was planning on pulling that manifold and seeing if the cam chain has broken or what im faced with..
The passenger side turned and felt as tho it had the resistance i would have expected to operate valves. I have rotated it and the crank and both feel ok with no obvious feel of a dropped or damaged valve hitting anything.

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoJeffster]

That was my original plan but the drivers side cam pulley has seperated from the rubber inner piece and it rotates very easily and looking down the oil filler i cant see the camshaft turning .. so i was planning on pulling that manifold and seeing if the cam chain has broken or what im faced with..
The passenger side turned and felt as tho it had the resistance i would have expected to operate valves. I have rotated it and the crank and both feel ok with no obvious feel of a dropped or damaged valve hitting anything.

Cheers Bulletman

If you can rotate the crank without it stopping against a valve, then you have valves not sitting where they should be - either punched up and snapped rockers or bent out of the way.

[emoji3525]

[Bulletman]

If you can rotate the crank without it stopping against a valve, then you have valves not sitting where they should be - either punched up and snapped rockers or bent out of the way.

[emoji3525]

The passenger side would only rotate so far then no more, once i rotated the crank i could rotate that cam and continued that way till i got the timing pin to locate . I have removed the starter but havent locked the flywheel yet .
The issue is the drivers side .. i cant work out if the broken rubber centre of the cam sproket is what is making to turn so easily or if the chain has snapped and 1 cam is rotating and the other isnt , turning the sproket and looking down the oil fillet i can see 1 cam is definately not rotating..

Ive never really worked on small engines with belt driven cams all my stuff has been on marine deisels with gear driven timing and i gave up the tools 20 yrs ago so its a learning curve .. but im sure regardless you shouldnt be able to spin a cam sprocket like its the $ wheel at the casino..

Cheers Bulletman

[PerthDisco]

On the upside this is a good news story for old TDV6 cranks.

[DiscoDB]

Well Sir you get the chocolates... tensioner bolt snapped

Non-genuine cheesium bolts strike again. This time with more serious consequences.

By the way - I did not want to be correct - was truly hoping it was something a lot simpler and easier to fix.

[DiscoDB]

OMG!!!!

Will have to seriously consider updating to LR part if this was sourced from AF as my new one was replaced 20k kms ago.

I would be a bit concerned as AF also don’t include genuine bolts. We know they have prior history with selling suspension kits with non-genuine bolts that have failed on installation.

This bolt is subject to a lot of shear force.

This is only the second failure of this type that has been reported on this forum - so does seem to be a rare occurrence.

[Bulletman]

I would be a bit concerned as AF also don’t include genuine bolts. We know they have prior history with selling suspension kits with non-genuine bolts that have failed on installation.

This bolt is subject to a lot of sheer force.

This is only the second failure of this type that has been reported on this forum - so does seem to be a rare occurrence.

When i can actually dislodge the tensioner from the timing cover i will see if any markings on the bolt... i have actually hit it with a hammer and it didnt move so maybe need a bigger hammer..



Bulletman - can you please post a photo of the bolt head to see the markings on it. This would give something for people to compare against (if inclined to remove the timing cover).

When i can get the tensioner out of the timing cover i will look for markings.. i hit it with a hammer but it didnt move so i guess i need a bigger hammer...

Doing 90km/h with 2.7t on the back proberly went towards causing the amount of damage.

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoDB]

Bulletman - looking at those pictures it almost looks like a fatigue failure and not a shear failure.

When you are up to it, could you please post a good quality picture of the surface of the bolt where it failed and also one of the bolt head to see the markings on it to see if we can confirm the grade of the bolt.

If it is the right grade and was a fatigue failure, this would imply the torque is too low with not enough clamping force which then allows the head and tensioner to flex.

If it is the wrong grade, then a fatigue or shear failure is possible.

Edit: sorry for overlapping comments - I added more so move the request for a photo to this post. Cheers.

[Bulletman]

Bulletman - looking at those pictures it almost looks like a fatigue failure and not a sheer failure.

When you are up to it, could you please post a good quality picture of the surface of the bolt where it failed and also one of the bolt head to see the markings on it to see if we can confirm the grade of the bolt.

If it is the right grade and was a fatigue failure, this would imply the torque is too low with not enough clamping force which then allows the head and tensioner to flex.

If it is the wrong grade, then a fatigue or sheer failure is possible.

I will try and look at it again on the weekend as i have packed it all in the shed and wont be touching the car again to saturday as im away with work till late friday night..

There is alot of damage to the timing cover and about 6 teeth ripped off the belt but the rest of the belt looks new.. the break is flush with the back of the tensioner and slightly inside the oil pump housing... but im talking proberly not even .5mm in

Reguardless of what caused it its a pain but in my eyes its the better than a broken crank..

I was hoping i kept my old tensioner and belt to use to rotate the engine once i see whats waiting under the drivers side inlet manifold.. up for a new oil pump as well but in the short term hopefully i can drill out the bolt..

Fun and games for the next few weekends thats for sure.

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoDB]

Understood - it is purely self interest now why some of us are keen to understand why it failed.

The last time this failure mode was reported I don’t think the OP was keen to discuss further. Not surprising as it is a big kick in the guts.

[101RRS]

Understood - it is purely self interest now why some of us are keen to understand why it failed.



I am one of those who is following with interest - 2.7, last cam belt change 2017, oil pump and seals provided by Ford (cannot remember if any bolts were provided), belt kit provided by Advanced Factors - all fitted by a good local independent who provided everything else. Now covered 100,000km since.

Garry

[DiscoDB]

This bolt fail theory is nasty as it’s a 10.9 strength bolt done up to a ridiculously low 26Nm so you’d be unlucky.

Out of interest - where did you get the grade 10.9 from? I don’t think you will find a grade marking on the original bolts.

The downside of high tensile bolts is they are less ductile.

[DiscoDB]

*yes, just like any half modern engine, its interference. You don't get the power outputs of a modern engine by having 2 feet of clearance between the valves and the pistons.
*both the 2.7 and 3.0 bend valves quite readily.
*I have had in engines that broke the tensioner bolt. The cause generally is a heavy handed monkey and re-using the old bolts.
*The tensioner bolts is one I use genuine, as bolts are hard enough to trace the origin of manufacture.
*yes the bolt should be marked 10.9

*Using a 1/2 drive torque wrench really isnt the tool for the job. a small 3/8 drive mid range pref digital torque wrench is what should be used.

I take back my comment this is a rare occurrence - sounds like a lot more cases of this bolt failing than I thought.

Thanks for the info Dazza.

[DiscoDB]

I am one of those who is following with interest - 2.7, last cam belt change 2017, oil pump and seals provided by Ford (cannot remember if any bolts were provided), belt kit provided by Advanced Factors - all fitted by a good local independent who provided everything else. Now covered 100,000km since.

Garry

2018 for me. Reputable Indy supplied the “kit” which I believe was genuine.

This was back when I did not pay enough attention to these details other than knowing I needed the pump upgraded and wanted the idler pulleys done at the same time as the timing belt and tensioner.

Also not clear if the genuine kit comes with the bolt or not. Perhaps Dazza can confirm.

[DiscoDB]

On the upside this is a good news story for old TDV6 cranks.

Would be good to rename this thread as well.

Tensioner bolt failure may become an important topic to be able to search for in future.

[Bulletman]

2018 for me. Reputable Indy supplied the “kit” which I believe was genuine.

This was back when I did not pay enough attention to these details other than knowing I needed the pump upgraded and wanted the idler pulleys done at the same time as the timing belt and tensioner.

Also not clear if the genuine kit comes with the bolt or not. Perhaps Dazza can confirm.

I have asked the mods to rename the thread as the words crank and snapped in this section of the forum seem to reduce peoples life by a few years :)

This is exactly how i was at the time.. it was all about upgrading the oil pump.. i remember looking at the original pump and belt and saying it would proberly run for another 7 years

I do remember looking at the new bolt and the low torque setting and thinking how the hell does it keep running for all those kms but not thinking of checking i just fitted the kit supplied..

1 thing i can say for sure is it wasnt from AF as im 100% sure i didnt start using them till i started replacing suspension componets and wheel bearings..

As i said earlier im not going to name whom i think it was as its unfair to them and at the end of the day I did the replacement so its on me that i never was vigu thourough enough to do my research on the bolt.. lesson learnt the hard way..

Will update more as i know it but due to work commitments its going to be a slow process

Cheers Bulletman

[Pippin]

I have asked the mods to rename the thread as the words crank and snapped in this section of the forum seem to reduce peoples life by a few years :)

This is exactly how i was at the time.. it was all about upgrading the oil pump.. i remember looking at the original pump and belt and saying it would proberly run for another 7 years

I do remember looking at the new bolt and the low torque setting and thinking how the hell does it keep running for all those kms but not thinking of checking i just fitted the kit supplied..

1 thing i can say for sure is it wasnt from AF as im 100% sure i didnt start using them till i started replacing suspension componets and wheel bearings..

As i said earlier im not going to name whom i think it was as its unfair to them and at the end of the day I did the replacement so its on me that i never was vigu thourough enough to do my research on the bolt.. lesson learnt the hard way..

Will update more as i know it but due to work commitments its going to be a slow process

Cheers Bulletman Having followed this thread with concern I checked the "Gates Power Grip Kit" I'm about to fit, it comes with a bolt marked "BUFO 10.9" so I guess the bolt is ok. all the best, Nick.

[PerthDisco]

Out of interest - where did you get the grade 10.9 from? I don’t think you will find a grade marking on the original bolts.

The downside of high tensile bolts is they are less ductile.

Is the spec what AF sell aftermarket but has also been mentioned on LR Time I believe.

[PerthDisco]

Would be good to rename this thread as well.

Tensioner bolt failure may become an important topic to be able to search for in future.

It’s typically sold separately

[DiscoJeffster]

Having followed this thread with concern I checked the "Gates Power Grip Kit" I'm about to fit, it comes with a bolt marked "BUFO 10.9" so I guess the bolt is ok. all the best, Nick.

I feel like I’d go and buy the bolt from LR and pay through the nose to know it’s not of questionable quality (not suggesting original is great, but ….)

[PerthDisco]

I feel like I’d go and buy the bolt from LR and pay through the nose to know it’s not of questionable quality (not suggesting original is great, but ….)

LR006027

[PeterOZ]

I would be a bit concerned as AF also don’t include genuine bolts. We know they have prior history with selling suspension kits with non-genuine bolts that have failed on installation.

This bolt is subject to a lot of shear force.

This is only the second failure of this type that has been reported on this forum - so does seem to be a rare occurrence.

and with caliper bolts where their supplied bolts snap when you try do do them up. I stayed away from them when I replaced all the top / bottom arms.

[DazzaTD5]

I take back my comment this is a rare occurrence - sounds like a lot more cases of this bolt failing than I thought.

Thanks for the info Dazza.

I think what you say is correct, it is rare...

I'm still getting vehicles in with a broken oil pump housing, I have one now, i find it almost unbelievable there are engines out there that havent had this done.

[loanrangie]

I think what you say is correct, it is rare...

I'm still getting vehicles in with a broken oil pump housing, I have one now, i find it almost unbelievable there are engines out there that havent had this done.

LR still wont accept that its an issue so no recall was done, its only indies like yourself that are aware due to seeing the failures come in on a tilt tray.

[PeterOZ]

LR still wont accept that its an issue so no recall was done, its only indies like yourself that are aware due to seeing the failures come in on a tilt tray.

Like mine did in 2015 https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/icons/icon8.png either the pump flange failed or the bolt sheared, the nth side brisbane indie would not advise. Getting info from them at the time was like pulling teeth.

Think that terry engine is getting towards end of its life as oil pressure is low and will probably need to make decisions soon about another engine or another vehicle. Another engine is the preference if I can find one.

[loanrangie]

Like mine did in 2015 https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/icons/icon8.png either the pump flange failed or the bolt sheared, the nth side brisbane indie would not advise. Getting info from them at the time was like pulling teeth.

Think that terry engine is getting towards end of its life as oil pressure is low and will probably need to make decisions soon about another engine or another vehicle. Another engine is the preference if I can find one.New latest version oil pump should help with that.

[DazzaTD5]

the broken tensioner bolt should not become an issue, replacing the bolt when doing a timing belt is very much the norm on any car for anyone that repairs cars for a living

[PeterOZ]

New latest version oil pump should help with that.

I've got the 15mm impeller one to be fitted when it goes in for timing belts etc.

[DiscoDB]

the broken tensioner bolt should not become an issue, replacing the bolt when doing a timing belt is very much the norm on any car for anyone that repairs cars for a living

So in addition to using only genuine bolts, torqued to the correct spec accurately with a digital torque wrench, do you also put loctite on the bolt?

Other than wrong spec bolt, or wrong spec torque, the only other 2 explanations I can think of are either the bolt comes loose, or the mating surface between the tensioner and mounting point are not clean and straight (allowing for some flexing).

26Nm on a grade 10.9 M8 bolt is something like 50-60% proof load, so well below the yield point.

[BradC]

So in addition to using only genuine bolts, torqued to the correct spec accurately with a digital torque wrench, do you also put loctite on the bolt?


I always wondered about that, because Loctite makes a great lubricant for the threads.

[Eric SDV6SE]

I have asked the mods to rename the thread as the words crank and snapped in this section of the forum seem to reduce peoples life by a few years :)

This is exactly how i was at the time.. it was all about upgrading the oil pump.. i remember looking at the original pump and belt and saying it would proberly run for another 7 years

I do remember looking at the new bolt and the low torque setting and thinking how the hell does it keep running for all those kms but not thinking of checking i just fitted the kit supplied..

1 thing i can say for sure is it wasnt from AF as im 100% sure i didnt start using them till i started replacing suspension componets and wheel bearings..

As i said earlier im not going to name whom i think it was as its unfair to them and at the end of the day I did the replacement so its on me that i never was vigu thourough enough to do my research on the bolt.. lesson learnt the hard way..

Will update more as i know it but due to work commitments its going to be a slow process

Cheers Bulletman

Pm sent

[Graeme]

I'll bet that the thread already has dry thread-locker applied.

[DiscoDB]

I'll bet that the thread already has dry thread-locker applied.

Pretty sure this bolt doesn’t have any dry thread locker on it. Which is why I am interested to know if the pro’s like Dazza do add any loctite.

I personally think in this application it needs loctite and I probably wouldn’t reduce the torque setting either being a 10.9 grade bolt that is being tightened well below its normal recommended minimum torque setting.

Having said that we also need to get some more feedback on what Bulletman finds when examined more closely.

This is a basic failure that should be easy to solve to root cause and eliminate from happening.

[loanrangie]

Pretty sure this bolt doesn’t have any dry thread locker on it. Which is why I am interested to know if the pro’s like Dazza do add any loctite.

I personally think in this application it needs loctite and I probably wouldn’t reduce the torque setting either being a 10.9 grade bolt that is being tightened well below its normal recommended minimum torque setting.

Having said that we also need to get some more feedback on what Bulletman finds when examined more closely.

This is a basic failure that should be easy to solve to root cause and eliminate from happening.


Pretty sure the bolt that came in my AF kit didn't have any thread locker on it.

[PerthDisco]

No threadlock on my AF bolt but I did add a dab.

I also confess that in trying to find the perfect tensioner position I tightened and released it a few times.

If you don’t go a little past the window the indicator slips back a little which drove me crazy.

[Bulletman]

Well an update of sorts... i was expecting the worst and pretty well seem to have not fallen to short of my expectations..
186051186052

So cam chain broken found the spring from the slack adjuster but not sure where the rest is...
Got 3 broken roller rockers out but can see atlest 1 more ... all the bolts on 1 cam caps are loose and some on the other cam...

Has a split inlet manifold above where the cam chain broke.

Will pull the cams and see what lies beneath then do some costing on parts and see if its worth fixing or sell what i can and call it game over..

Cheers Bulletman

[loanrangie]

Well an update of sorts... i was expecting the worst and pretty well seem to have not fallen to short of my expectations..
186051186052

So cam chain broken found the spring from the slack adjuster but not sure where the rest is...
Got 3 broken roller rockers out but can see atlest 1 more ... all the bolts on 1 cam caps are loose and some on the other cam...

Has a split inlet manifold above where the cam chain broke.

Will pull the cams and see what lies beneath then do some costing on parts and see if its worth fixing or sell what i can and call it game over..

Cheers Bulletman

Pull all the rockers out and refit the cams, then rotate to see if any are are bent. My LH exhaust cam was slightly bent just enough to bind while rotating, i fitted a used cam when i re-assembled it.

[Bulletman]

Pull all the rockers out and refit the cams, then rotate to see if any are are bent. My LH exhaust cam was slightly bent just enough to bind while rotating, i fitted a used cam when i re-assembled it.

Im going to pull the cams and have a look at whats underneath, the cam sprocket is knackered as its seperated from the rubber dampener inside but it could proberly be used to rotate the engine..

Cheers Bulletman

[josh.huber]

Just pull the cams and measure the valve Heights, a bent valve will be obvious.

You can make a basic v block to measure the cam for bend with a peice of wood.

[PerthDisco]

The odds are usually ok that the pistons can continue on but you’d obviously want to see them.

How was removing the injectors?

[Bulletman]

Finally got the vacuum pump loosened enough to remove the last cam... my got i thought getting a stuck injector out was a skin donation job.. bloody vacuum pump wins hands down..

Every roller rocker on the bottom cam is broken.. the top cam they all seem ok ... cant see ant cracks or damage and the cams look great for a 215k engine , no wear marks at all on the lobes or the caps...

Might be beer oclock... thats if i have enough skin left on my hands to actually hold a beer.

Cheers Bulletman

[ramblingboy42]

there are number of different threadlocking and sealing compounds and to my education none of them come preapplied to a bolt as some seem to be suggesting.

the threadlocking product has to be applied from a tube or bottle and ONLY a drop or 2 applied to the thread. Overuse only encourages failure.

I attended a Loctite product training seminar once where they demonstrated correct and incorrect use of their various products.

It was also interesting to note that many of the locking mediums break down under heat so it may be pertinent to ensure that the product meets the intended purpose. Literature is available.eg thread loctite is different to stud loctite and the nut/bolt/thread tolerance also determines the correct loctite to be used.

[DiscoJeffster]

Finally got the vacuum pump loosened enough to remove the last cam... my got i thought getting a stuck injector out was a skin donation job.. bloody vacuum pump wins hands down..

Every roller rocker on the bottom cam is broken.. the top cam they all seem ok ... cant see ant cracks or damage and the cams look great for a 215k engine , no wear marks at all on the lobes or the caps...

Might be beer oclock... thats if i have enough skin left on my hands to actually hold a beer.

Cheers Bulletman

I got ya back

Opening a Beer with Feet - YouTube (https://youtu.be/RLxFFnHe_6I)

[Bulletman]

I got ya back

Opening a Beer with Feet - YouTube (https://youtu.be/RLxFFnHe_6I)

I wish that person was here to help me with the vacuum pump ... proberly would have been better than my 2 hands

Cheers Bulletman

[josh.huber]

there are number of different threadlocking and sealing compounds and to my education none of them come preapplied to a bolt as some seem to be suggesting.

the threadlocking product has to be applied from a tube or bottle and ONLY a drop or 2 applied to the thread. Overuse only encourages failure.

I attended a Loctite product training seminar once where they demonstrated correct and incorrect use of their various products.

It was also interesting to note that many of the locking mediums break down under heat so it may be pertinent to ensure that the product meets the intended purpose. Literature is available.eg thread loctite is different to stud loctite and the nut/bolt/thread tolerance also determines the correct loctite to be used.

Yeah it's a thing now

Hub Savers Double Locked Sprocket Fasteners – Bolt Motorcycle Hardware (https://boltmotorcyclehardware.com/products/hub-savers-sprocket-bolts)

These are the bolts I use on my bike sprockets, with the preapplied stuff. They work really good. You know about it when removing them. After a use you have to reapply from the bottle but

[Bulletman]

Well the next missing piece of the puzzle is where the hell did the cam chain go.. i heard it fall somewhere when i was pulling out bits of roller rockers but buggered if i can find it..

Im suspecting its fallen down into the depths of the engine... just seeming to add to my luck with this car...

Cheers Bulletman

[josh.huber]

After that failure, you'll probably need to pull the sump anyway and have a quick look.

[Narangga]

After that failure, you'll probably need to pull the sump anyway and have a quick look.

Are you suggesting he might find sump-thing? :wasntme:

[Pippin]

Are you suggesting he might find sump-thing? :wasntme: If he doesn't he will be piston broke. But jokes aside can you get it with a magnetic probe?

[Bulletman]

If he doesn't he will be piston broke. But jokes aside can you get it with a magnetic probe?

I have tried a magnet but nothing but oil is coming out each time.. i will drop the sump and have a look which is something i was going to do anyway ... hopefully it has made its way to the sump... but the way my luck is going thats unlikely..

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoDB]

Bulletman - were you able to confirm that the tensioner bolt was grade 10.9?

Still keen to also see some good clear photos of the failure as well to determine the likely cause. Cheers.

[Bulletman]

Bulletman - were you able to confirm that the tensioner bolt was grade 10.9?

Still keen to also see some good clear photos of the failure as well to determine the likely cause. Cheers.

I didnt bother yet as was too busy stripping things... mostly skin off my hands and trying to battle with that crazy vacuum pump removal..

Wont be touching it again till the weekend but when i get back home torrow night i will see if i can dig it out of the shed and pry it from the timing cover....

Cheers Bulletman

[Bulletman]

So bit of an update ... no pics but im going to call it as the wrong bolt supplied.. there is no markings on the bolt at all.. it has done 63400ks and 7.5 yrs on that bolt..

So today managed to drop sump and found the cam chain and a few other small metal bits, so that was a relief..
Timed the crank which done my head in as there are several holes in the flywheel and doing it on my own was a pain but only 1 of the holes does line up with the locking tool the rest are about 1/2 hole out..

Had no joy trying to get the broken bolt out , so will just fit new oil pump cause knowing my luck its proberly been damaged by the bolt breaking.

Not sure how much it really means, but all the valves measure the same height from the collett to the top of the valve stem..
Next job is to pull the other manifold and check for damage.. and try and find all the 8mm and 10mm sockets i have dropped and havent managed to find..

Cheers Bulletman

[Bobh]

mid June 23 350kms east of Balladonia WA had almost same symptoms. 2013 Disco4 TDV6 regularly serviced and well maintained and less than 150K. Ended up getting trucked back home (about$12,000.00 after RAA subsidy). Landrover mechanic lifting body off chassis this week, he thinks maybe crankshaft but wants to investigate further.
I've read previously that JLR have acknowledged problem with crankshaft failure due to assembly problems? Has anyone had any support from JLR in getting their broken crankshaft issue sorted?

[PeterOZ]

mid June 23 350kms east of Balladonia WA had almost same symptoms. 2013 Disco4 TDV6 regularly serviced and well maintained and less than 150K. Ended up getting trucked back home (about$12,000.00 after RAA subsidy). Landrover mechanic lifting body off chassis this week, he thinks maybe crankshaft but wants to investigate further.
I've read previously that JLR have acknowledged problem with crankshaft failure due to assembly problems? Has anyone had any support from JLR in getting their broken crankshaft issue sorted?

needs a class action for the 3.0 and some of the 2.7s as well. The number of them is well above what could be expected.

[DiscoDB]

So bit of an update ... no pics but im going to call it as the wrong bolt supplied.. there is no markings on the bolt at all.. it has done 63400ks and 7.5 yrs on that bolt..


So I guess the lesson for the rest of us is, if you don’t know what grade bolt has been fitted remove the timing belt cover and check.

If in doubt, change it out!

(Preferably with a genuine bolt).

[Bulletman]

So todays findings so far

Battled 2 stuck injectors which finally came out... thats a whole other thread
Pulled passenger side inlet manifold and found 2 broken roller rockers but also 5 broken bolts that hold the cam caps on and all bar the fuel pump end cap was loose... guess with broken bolts they will be loose.
Also found the cam chain has jumped on the teeth as the cams didnt line up with the 2 diffent colour links on the chain.
Valves that i have measured are all the same height as each other and also the other side so make of that what you will..

Will give it a clean and look for more damage /broken bits and continue on ..

Oh the joy ... cheers Bulletman

[josh.huber]

Do a leak down test through the glow plug holes. That'll tell you if the internals survived

[Bulletman]

Do a leak down test through the glow plug holes. That'll tell you if the internals survived


Ok i will need to look that 1 up.. i havent removed the glow plugs but ive come this far so worth looking into..

Cheers Bulletman

[josh.huber]

It's basically a compression test in reverse, you add air to the cylinder and it'll tell you how much it can hold. Easier to go through glow plug then injector as there is usually an adaptor for that in the kit

[Eric SDV6SE]

Ok i will need to look that 1 up.. i havent removed the glow plugs but ive come this far so worth looking into..

Cheers Bulletman

I have an injector leak down test kit you can borrow if needed. The check through the glow plug holes will tell you if all valves are seated correctly

[Bulletman]

I have an injector leak down test kit you can borrow if needed. The check through the glow plug holes will tell you if all valves are seated correctly

Ok thanks Eric.. i could proberly do 1 side at the moment as it has no cams in it but the othere side is a bit trickier as it has the fuel pump sprocket on the other end and its looking like a mission to try and remove that cam... thankfully I havent found any broken roller rockers under that cam .. but should be able to rotate enough to close those valves

Cheers Bulletman

[TonyC]

Given the injectors are out, and the glow plugs aren't
You need to do the leak down through the injector holes if you can.

Tony

[Bulletman]

1 step forward 2 steps back.. fitted new oil pump and sorted broken rockers and cam sprocket , fitted it and timed it put an old belt and tensioner on that Dazza td5 kindly gave me, rotated the engine and just short of 1 rotation its locking up..

Im sure the timing cant be out as rotating it back from where it locks up i can get all 3 timing pins in on my marks .

The thing im unsure of is if i try and continue to rotate it back further it locks up again..

Any suggestions on things to check before i proceed to the next step of heads off..

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoJeffster]

1 step forward 2 steps back.. fitted new oil pump and sorted broken rockers and cam sprocket , fitted it and timed it put an old belt and tensioner on that Dazza td5 kindly gave me, rotated the engine and just short of 1 rotation its locking up..

Im sure the timing cant be out as rotating it back from where it locks up i can get all 3 timing pins in on my marks .

The thing im unsure of is if i try and continue to rotate it back further it locks up again..

Any suggestions on things to check before i proceed to the next step of heads off..

Cheers Bulletman

You will have bent valves. Have you checked for valve binding? Cam rockers snap because the valve hit the piston and the force went into the cam rocker. You can’t go from that to happy. You’ll have bent valve stems and damaged valves seating surfaces.

If you say you’ve timed it right then you probably have a jammed valve hitting a piston [emoji2369]

[josh.huber]

He checked unloaded valve heights but.

Let the cams loose and wind over with all the valves closed.

If that works its timing

Is it doesn't, it's the head

When it locks up. Put a scewer in the glow plug or injector hole and work out which head has to come off

[Bulletman]

You will have bent valves. Have you checked for valve binding? Cam rockers snap because the valve hit the piston and the force went into the cam rocker. You can’t go from that to happy. You’ll have bent valve stems and damaged valves seating surfaces.

If you say you’ve timed it right then you probably have a jammed valve hitting a piston [emoji2369]

Im not the lucky backpacker who does no maintenence and somehow it fixes itself..
I fully expected it to have valve damage but thought i would see if the LR gods were shining on me but as usual they dont seem to be..

How do i check for valve binding ?

The car has cost me plenty so far so pulling the heads and doing a head overhaul is just another piece i expected, but hoped for some lotto style luck ... but as usual its not to be..

Cheers Bulletman

[Bulletman]

He checked unloaded valve heights but.

Let the cams loose and wind over with all the valves closed.

If that works its timing

Is it doesn't, it's the head

When it locks up. Put a scewer in the glow plug or injector hole and work out which head has to come off

I rotated it with injectors out so i should be able to do as you say..

Im a bit confused as to if i can rotate with all the valves closed how does that tell me its timing not a valve ?

Appreciate the suggestion which i will try..

Cheers Bulletman

[discorevy]

If you're lucky, it's possible the cam chain pulled the tensioner down hard enough when it had its "moment" that it skipped a tooth or 2, enough to lock up on the intake cam.

If it locks up with the cams backed off on that side, put some compressed air down the injector holes ( keep in mind the piston might want to "bottom"), and listen for air coming out the intake ( one person job ) or exhaust ( 2 people ) on each cyl.

If all that checks out try the other side.

If you can rotate it with all the valves closed then it has to be timing because a badly bent valve would still lock it up with the cams backed off.

Good luck.

Apologies if I've missed something as I haven't read through the whole thread, but have you checked cam timing / Valves on both sides?

[Bulletman]

If you're lucky, it's possible the cam chain pulled the tensioner down hard enough when it had its "moment" that it skipped a tooth or 2, enough to lock up on the intake cam.

If it locks up with the cams backed off on that side, put some compressed air down the injector holes ( keep in mind the piston might want to "bottom"), and listen for air coming out the intake ( one person job ) or exhaust ( 2 people ) on each cyl.

If all that checks out try the other side.

If you can rotate it with all the valves closed then it has to be timing because a badly bent valve would still lock it up with the cams backed off.

Good luck.

Apologies if I've missed something as I haven't read through the whole thread, but have you checked cam timing / Valves on both sides?

I had 1 broken cam chain and 1 that had jumped teeth so i have lined up both cams as per the manual that has the different colour links aligning with the slots on the cam toothed wheel ? Both side line up and both slot into the timing pin slots pretty much when they are at the 12 oclock position..

I will back off the cams and see if i can rotate the engine next but i cant see how timing can be out but i have never worked with overhead cams so i could well be doing it wrong..

My initial thought was timing but only 1 hole lines up on the fly wheel so i can only assume #1 has to be tdc.. then its just a matter on making sure the cams are correct but i cant see how you can be 180 degrees out on that set up.. but more than happy to be shown that my thoughts are incorrect..

I was going to do a leak down but decided on doing a rotation first just to see if it would but i cant get 1 full turn of the crank only about 7/8 before something locks it.. i can actually hear it but to pin point is very hard..

Thanks and cheers Bulletman

[discorevy]

I had 1 broken cam chain and 1 that had jumped teeth so i have lined up both cams as per the manual that has the different colour links aligning with the slots on the cam toothed wheel ? Both side line up and both slot into the timing pin slots pretty much when they are at the 12 oclock position..

I will back off the cams and see if i can rotate the engine next but i cant see how timing can be out but i have never worked with overhead cams so i could well be doing it wrong..

My initial thought was timing but only 1 hole lines up on the fly wheel so i can only assume #1 has to be tdc.. then its just a matter on making sure the cams are correct but i cant see how you can be 180 degrees out on that set up.. but more than happy to be shown that my thoughts are incorrect..

I was going to do a leak down but decided on doing a rotation first just to see if it would but i cant get 1 full turn of the crank only about 7/8 before something locks it.. i can actually hear it but to pin point is very hard..

Thanks and cheers Bulletman

That sort of force can easily bend a cam on these, maybe get it to the position where it locks up then back off the cam caps ( 1 side at a time ) and see if it rotates further.

[Bulletman]

That sort of force can easily bend a cam on these, maybe get it to the position where it locks up then back off the cam caps ( 1 side at a time ) and see if it rotates further.

I replaced the 2 cams on 1 side from a different head but i didnt check end float .. not sure if that could cause it... wasnt even sure how to check it to be honest..

Anyway i will triple check it again tomorrow and see if i can determine which piston it is..

Thanks and cheers bulletman

[loanrangie]

My LH exhaust camshaft was slightly bent ,not enough to lock up on rotation but enough that you could feel the resistance.

[josh.huber]

I rotated it with injectors out so i should be able to do as you say..

Im a bit confused as to if i can rotate with all the valves closed how does that tell me its timing not a valve ?

Appreciate the suggestion which i will try..

Cheers Bulletman

If the cams are out it should turn over. Because none of the valves are down. You measured the stem Heights and they were all the same. When you lock the engine on number 1 look in the hole or confirm that the piston is on tdc.

When you set the cams up the opposite cylinder to number 1 (I can't remember the firing order) should have its exhaust valve and inlet valve both slightly open. Exhaust will be nearly closed and inlet starting to open.

Turn the engine without cams first. Then with them again. If it stops again, look to see which cam is opening a valve

[Bulletman]

My LH exhaust camshaft was slightly bent ,not enough to lock up on rotation but enough that you could feel the resistance.

I did replace both cams on the side that had all the damage .. they werent new but they came from an engine that didnt suffer a major failure so i was told..

This is a definate lock up not just resistance..

I did rotate the engine with the cams out when i was trying to lock the flywheel and i would have definately rotated it 360 degrees as it took a lot to find the hole in the flywheel that lines up with the locking tool.

Im wondering can the crank be 1 rotation out ? It takes 2 rotations to do a full cycle so im wondering can that possibly be the issue..

Ive never worked with overhead cams and been a long time since i was on the tools doing this type of stuff so im struggling with how this timing works

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoJeffster]

I did replace both cams on the side that had all the damage .. they werent new but they came from an engine that didnt suffer a major failure so i was told..

This is a definate lock up not just resistance..

I did rotate the engine with the cams out when i was trying to lock the flywheel and i would have definately rotated it 360 degrees as it took a lot to find the hole in the flywheel that lines up with the locking tool.

Im wondering can the crank be 1 rotation out ? It takes 2 rotations to do a full cycle so im wondering can that possibly be the issue..

Ive never worked with overhead cams and been a long time since i was on the tools doing this type of stuff so im struggling with how this timing works

Cheers Bulletman

The crank turns twice for one rotation of the top end. You can’t get the bottom in the wrong place. If you’re sure you’ve got the bottom at top dead centre (locked in place and timing marks aligned, then the options are
- a valve is being extended and is getting stuck, hitting a piston - interference
- something is binding up, feeling like interference
- the timing of each cam to each other versus the cams to the bottom end is wrong

I assume you have the manual and have followed precisely how to time everything together?

I’d go back to the start and check everything.

[Bulletman]

The crank turns twice for one rotation of the top end. You can’t get the bottom in the wrong place. If you’re sure you’ve got the bottom at top dead centre (locked in place and timing marks aligned, then the options are
- a valve is being extended and is getting stuck, hitting a piston - interference
- something is binding up, feeling like interference
- the timing of each cam to each other versus the cams to the bottom end is wrong

I assume you have the manual and have followed precisely how to time everything together?

I’d go back to the start and check everything.

When i was trying to initially lock the flywheel thru the locking hole above the starter there were several holes in the flywheel that didnt line up then when i continued to rotate the crank 1 hole does line up and you can lock the flywheel... enough to remove the crank bolt and fit a new bolt to correct tension.. so from everything i have read and have seen without physically seeing the piston crown then i belive #1 is at tdc... but i will check thru the injector hole today..

As you say i will start again but everything i read assumes that the engine has already been timed and you are setting the timing to do a belt change ..

I will go back and check it and also see if i can follow it from the firing order and proceed from there..

Thanks all for your time and imput .

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoJeffster]

Use a long rod down the injector hole on cyl 1. Ensure as you rotate clockwise that it hovers briefly then goes down. You could also measure each cylinder to see where there are all at in their strokes to compare.

[101RRS]

I am sorry but your engine has suffered a major event and many things could have gone wrong that are not obvious. I would be pulling the top end/heads off and inspecting everything with a fine tooth comb including the pistons.

The way things are going I can see you fixing the engine and the finding further issues down the track.

[josh.huber]

I am sorry but your engine has suffered a major event and many things could have gone wrong that are not obvious. I would be pulling the top end/heads off and inspecting everything with a fine tooth comb including the pistons.

The way things are going I can see you fixing the engine and the finding further issues down the track.

I've seen straight valves get away with this before.

[Bulletman]

So todays fun and games... removed the cams on the drivers and 1 cam on the passenger side .. loosened the other cam.. the reason i couldnt remove it is because it has the fuel pump gear on it and unless you hack the back of the fuel pump plastic cover you need to remove the pump gear to loosen or remove the back cam cap...

So with that cam loose enough to rotate so the lobes arent pushing on the valves and the other 3 removed i rotated the engine half a dozens times without issue.. i did have rods down each injector hole so i could follow the firing order plus i was a bit worried i may have had a broken crank but each rod went up and down in the correct sequence so i can only assume that
1- i dont have a broken crank
2- its unlikely i have broken bits on the piston crowns or valves that arent seating correctly..

So bolt it back up checking that timing is correct which im 100% sure it is... and low and behold its now locking up in a diffent spot.. and not close to where it was before going on the firing order where it did it before and now..

So im thinking the side that i never replaced the cams on has a bent cam or 2.. does this make sense to others ?

Next step is to pull that side again and see if its possible to get to the fuel pump gear for removal.. the heads i bought have the gear still on it and its held on by 1 centre bolt which isnt keyed so if i can manage to get a socket and bar in there.. if not its plan 256..

Im not having as much fun as it sounds like either ;)
Cheers bulletman

[loanrangie]

Yep,fyi I had to break the fuel pump belt cover to get the cam out and found a used replacement along with the cam.
It's was a real pita to refit as you have to fit the seal and cover over the cam before putting the pulley back on.
Assembled on the bench is necessary unless you have the LR special tools.

[Bulletman]

So todays fun and games was pulling 1 head and getting the other ready to come off..
So the drivers side head removal is pretty straight forward except for 1 bracket the is bolted to the bottom back corner of the head almost below the HPFP..

The pictures are a bit dark as its been raining so carport closed but there is no visible damage to either the crowns or the valves.. but without pulling each valve you wouldnt know if any are bent.. but im guessing the cam bolts and rockers breaking are enough to stop the valves being held open and coping lots of damage.

I suspect piston 6 is the one that may have issues but will attack that head on the weekend..

Cheers Bulletman

[Bulletman]

Well today seen a mirror image of tuesday.. pulled the passenger side head and bugger me not a mark on the piston crowns or the valves.. this is good but bad .. good is that there is no obvious damaged to valves or pistons after such a major failure at 95km/h towing not far off 3ton..
The bad is im not sure what was the reason i couldnt fully rotate the engine..
As would be expected the engine rotates freely with the heads off and the bores etc look good so nothing it seems has fallen down internally to obstruct anything.
186377186378

[DiscoJeffster]

You should take the heads to an engine reconditioner and ask them to inspect them. You’ll find something is out of round.

[Bulletman]

You should take the heads to an engine reconditioner and ask them to inspect them. You’ll find something is out of round.

Yes i will , going to take the ones i bought as well and get them checked before i put them on..

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoJeffster]

You look like, aside from pain and anguish, you might come out of this quite unscathed. Plus you’ll have have “fun” in the process. [emoji51]

[Bulletman]

You look like, aside from pain and anguish, you might come out of this quite unscathed. Plus you’ll have have “fun” in the process. [emoji51]

Unscathed is proberly the wrong word , some of the jobs to get parts off made my hands and wrists looked like i was using a cheese grater to remove the dirt... but yes i get what you mean

Im not disappointed that i pulled the heads as with the rocker damage i would always have wondered if a valve was about to break if i was lucky enough to put the belt on and it rotated without issue.. of course my bank account wishes i put the belt on and it rotated without issue...

Will order what i need plus a new oil cooler and few other bits then start the rebuild process..

Cheers Bulletman

[101RRS]

There should some marking - maybe ever so minor to show where a piston touched the valve/s and pushed the valve up and broke the cam cap bolts etc - failing that I would especially look at the valves next to the damaged cam cap bolts.

[Bulletman]

There should some marking - maybe ever so minor to show where a piston touched the valve/s and pushed the valve up and broke the cam cap bolts etc - failing that I would especially look at the valves next to the damaged cam cap bolts.

Thanks 101RRS,

The piston crowns are not flat they actually have 4 x half moon indents which align with the outside half of each valve so i think as long as the valve stems are straight on impact there will be very little impact to the piston crown outside of the indents in the pistons.. i had 6 smashed rockers on 1 head and 3 on the other yet to the naked eye there is no noticable impact damage between piston and valve.. not saying its not there with bent valve stems but if you didnt know what had happened you would say the head has no visable damage..

which begs the question as to how many failed oil pump engines were just tossed because of what was assumed may have been internal damage.. that is for another thread anyway..

I will eventually get around to stripping the heads down to see if its terminal but from what ive seen the rocker gear seems to be the weakest link and it could be a smart design feature... but who really knows..

Cheers Bulletman

[Tins]

Thanks 101RRS,

The piston crowns are not flat they actually have 4 x half moon indents which align with the outside half of each valve so i think as long as the valve stems are straight on impact there will be very little impact to the piston crown outside of the indents in the pistons.. i had 6 smashed rockers on 1 head and 3 on the other yet to the naked eye there is no noticable impact damage between piston and valve.. not saying its not there with bent valve stems but if you didnt know what had happened you would say the head has no visable damage..

which begs the question as to how many failed oil pump engines were just tossed because of what was assumed may have been internal damage.. that is for another thread anyway..

I will eventually get around to stripping the heads down to see if its terminal but from what ive seen the rocker gear seems to be the weakest link and it could be a smart design feature... but who really knows..

Cheers Bulletman

I know the engines are totally different, but you get that kind of minimal damage on 300TDi engines as well, with the straight valves just pushing back through the valve train.

[Bulletman]

I know the engines are totally different, but you get that kind of minimal damage on 300TDi engines as well, with the straight valves just pushing back through the valve train.

Yes my 300tdi D1 suffered a broken timing belt when they done the re call on the crank ? Pulley that needed the outer shim fitted to it and really it had minimal damage for the failure it had..

Cheers Bulletman

[Tins]

Yes my 300tdi D1 suffered a broken timing belt when they done the re call on the crank ? Pulley that needed the outer shim fitted to it and really it had minimal damage for the failure it had..

Cheers Bulletman
Mine broke the tensioner stud. Thing kept running long enough for me to extricate it from the embarrassing situation it was in. 5 bent pushrods and three broken rockers. Even the bronze cam followers survived.
Did a belt on a FIAT twin cam once. Only the crank was salvageable on that one. Admittedly she was doing some revs at the time.

[Bulletman]

Progress has been a bit slow due to work and waiting for uk parts delivery .
186557186558186559

So if you ever wondered what your inlet valves look like in an egr engine this is how... crazy to think someone in their wisdom thought egr was a good system..

Pulled the valves on 1 of my heads and 3 noticably bent valves and 3 that are suspect so am in the process of refitting diffent valves and new valve seals to that head then will do the same on the other head.

Oh and you can change the oil cooler in less than 30 minutes with the heads off ... and 20 minutes of that is cleaning the valley

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoJeffster]

I’m sorry to hear, but unsurprised you have bent valves. It’s probably a great opportunity to have the heads professionally reconditioned, valves replaced, reseat, new guides and stem seals. I guess it depends how long you’ll keep it

[Bulletman]

I’m sorry to hear, but unsurprised you have bent valves. It’s probably a great opportunity to have the heads professionally reconditioned, valves replaced, reseat, new guides and stem seals. I guess it depends how long you’ll keep it

I lapped in 12 valves today , fitted new valve stem seals and if i could work out an easier way to fit those bloody small collets i would hopefully get the other head done tomorrow, then i can start putting things back together ..

Cheers Bulletman

[Bulletman]

So an update
The car is up and running.. after sorting a fuel pressure issue which turned out to be leaking lines at the hpfp..

All in all i am surprised in how little damage there was for an engine that failed @90+ kmh towing 3ton van. In saying that the top rocker gear did cop a fair old bashing..

I put the 6 valves i thought were bent into a freinds work shop and it turns out only 1 was slightly bent and in his opinion would have been usable if needed.. my issue with it locking up turned out to be a roller rocker that had lost roller pins that i didnt notice and it would get to a point then it wouldnt roll causing the rocker not to push the valve properly... in saying that im glad i went to the extent of removing the heads and seeing no piston crown or valve damage..altho it added several more hours and lost skin to the job.. plus needing to get a bit inventive when refitting the passenger side head

The 2 hardest parts of the job were the vaccumm pump and the gear that drives the hpfp... there just isnt the room to do these easily with the body on... you just need to have patience and double jointed wrists and fingers.. the up side was it made fitting a new oil cooler very easy...

All in all its really an economic write off if you cant do it yourself as these cars are selling so cheaply now.. I havent added it up to the last cent but its cost me $2500 in parts all bar the heads from the UK.. Also i havent added up the exact hours i spent on it but it was 1 day a week for atleast 8 weeks plus a few extra hours here and there.
i did fit a new oil cooler and a new vaccumm pump so i could have gone cheaper if i reused the old ones but i know im not the lucky person who can get away with that and it not come back to bite me... i was lucky that i picked up a set of 2nd hand heads which had all the parts i needed which got damaged on mine so this saved me a lot of $$

I have a oil leak to fix but other than that time will tell whether i did the job any good or not..

Thanks to all for your imput and a extra thanks to Dazza for his advice , the loan of a crank seal fitting tool and the offer of parts , the forum is better off for having people like him on it..

Cheers Bulletman

[101RRS]

Glad to hear it has all come together. A friend has just had his 2.7 go bang - this time it is an actual broken crank which is unusual for a 2.7 - same spot as a 3.0 as the front pulley is wobbling around.