Synthetic Fuels

[gromit]

Not sure if this really counts as an alternate energy....

Talking with a mate in the UK and he mentioned that Germany were pursuing the production of synthetic fuels.
They did this during the war as they had no access to oil.

The UK was against synthetic fuels but as Germany continue with development they may accept it as a viable alternative as long as 'green energy' is used to produce it.

Synthetic fuels | Bosch Global (https://www.bosch.com/stories/synthetic-fuels/)



Colin

[JDNSW]

German synthetic fuel in WW2 was largely made from brown coal. Very inefficiently. Not exactly green.

[PerthDisco]

A large part of the success in winning WW2 was high octane fuel from the USA that allowed the Spitfire’s Merlin engine to get more and more powerful and totally dominate the German’s fighters.

[NavyDiver]

Read an amazing book about the Haber Bosch process and histroy. "The Alchemy Of Air: A Jewish Genius, a Doomed Tycoon, and the Scientific Discovery That Fed the World but Fueled the Rise of Hitler"

A scientist from Perth suggested I read in in relation to SCALE.
"Haber-Bosch process for creating synthetic ammonia, which is crucial for producing the fertilizer needed to feed the seven billion or so people on Earth today. In Hager’s phrase, it turns air into bread (https://rootsofprogress.org/turning-air-into-bread)."

The fuel was just a part of the amazing yarn. Gold from Seawater to pay for WW1 war reparations and a lot more [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

On Synthetic fuel "ethylene jet fuel" made from plastic or C02 is a real maybe could be [bigwhistle] NOT INVESTMENT ADVISE

"LanzaTech has chosen TechnipFMC’s Hummingbird ethanol-to-ethylene technology to combine with its own Alcohol-to-Jet (ATJ) technology for the manufacturing of sustainable aviation fuel (SAF) with ethanol serving as raw material.


LanzaJet, which is a spin-off sustainable aviation fuel company of LanzaTech, is the sole licensor of the ATJ technology."

It was from "Canada’s leading integrated energy company, Suncor Energy Inc., and leading Japanese trading and investment company, Mitsui & Co., Ltd. (Mitsui), are investing $15 million and $10 million, respectively, to establish LanzaJet. The funding will be used to build a demonstration plant that will produce 10 million gallons per year of SAF and renewable diesel starting from sustainable ethanol sources."


Not sure if ethanol will work in Landrovers with outs some modifications. e10 would I assume in petrol ones.

[JDNSW]

A large part of the success in winning WW2 was high octane fuel from the USA that allowed the Spitfire’s Merlin engine to get more and more powerful and totally dominate the German’s fighters.

Yes, although arguably it was research mainly by Harry Ricardo and advances in oil refining technology that directed what was needed and how to get there. Fuel for the allied operations in Europe mainly came from US fields, fuel for the Pacific operations came to a small extent from the US, but mostly from Middle East fields. (Simply a matter of distance - remember that most US oil production at the time was in the Gulf coast and Pennsylvania, and there were no pipelines to the West Coast.)

And there lies another interesting tale of fuels. In 1917, British and French aircraft used straight run petrol from Middle East crudes. This was relatively high octane (although the concept of octane was not understood at the time) due to its high aromatic content. When the USA entered the war in that year, one of their first acts to help was to supply large quantities of petrol which was straight run refined from West Texas crude, which, containing mainly unbranched hydrocarbons, yielded low octane petrol. This led to many engine failures in British and French aircraft and ultimately to the discovery of the causes of this, mainly by Ricardo. (And interestingly, due to the increasing domination of US domestic supplies by the same low octane fuel, to Ford dropping the compression ratio of the Model T from 5.5 to 4.5) The issue was largely removed by the discovery by Midge of the effects of adding tetraethyl lead to petrol in the late 1920s. This was used to raise the octane rating of the fuel as requested by Rolls Royce as they improved the superchargers on the Merlin, alytthough it was also supplemented by water injection nitrous oxide injection (both also from Ricardo).

In WW2, the British got their own back, sort of. When the US entered the war, Britain supplied aviation fuel from the Middle East to the Pacific war effort. The Americans soon found that the high aromatic content of this fuel dissolved the synthetic rubber self sealing liners in their fuel tanks (the British of course, used liners that were resistant to this).

[gromit]

German synthetic fuel in WW2 was largely made from brown coal. Very inefficiently. Not exactly green.

That was back then, things have moved on.....

The big issue will be cost until production ramps up. You can use the current distribution system (tankers, servos etc) no need to replace your IC powered vehicle.

What are synthetic fuels and how are they made? | Repsol (https://www.repsol.com/en/technology-and-digitalization/technology-lab/new-mobility/net-zero-emissions-fuels/index.cshtml)

Synthetic fuel is just another potential option but if you're creating hydrogen to produce it why not run IC engines on hydrogen or use a fuel cell, well apart from setting up a distribution network.
Cummins have fuel cells to power trucks Just a moment... (https://www.cummins.com/news/2022/04/28/cummins-fuel-cells-power-scanias-fuel-cell-electric-trucks)
Just the distribution to sort out.


Colin

[Tins]

There are a number of hydrogen stations in operation, construction or late planning already. It’s hard to see it being a whole lot more difficult than LPG distribution, and we managed that 50 years ago.

[BradC]

if you're creating hydrogen to produce it why not run IC engines on hydrogen

Because it has such a low octane that it tends to detonate most internal combustion engines to bits. The Wankel being a prominent exception. They're just not feasible for other reasons. I believe there are now some diesels that can use ~95% Hydrogen where available, but plenty have been working on the technology for years and not making huge progress.

It's also a ****load (metric not imperial) easier to transport a couple of thousand litres of liquid than compressed hydrogen.

[Tins]

Toyota seem to think it’s feasible: Hydrogen Refuelling Stations | Mirai | Toyota AU (https://www.toyota.com.au/electrified/hydrogen/stations)

[101RRS]

So does Hyundai. In the ACT there is one hydrogen refilling station and the hydrogen is generated on site.

[gromit]

Because it has such a low octane that it tends to detonate most internal combustion engines to bits. The Wankel being a prominent exception. They're just not feasible for other reasons. I believe there are now some diesels that can use ~95% Hydrogen where available, but plenty have been working on the technology for years and not making huge progress.

It's also a ****load (metric not imperial) easier to transport a couple of thousand litres of liquid than compressed hydrogen.

Yet they are running vehicles on it right now and have been for years. I remember seeing IC engines running on it back in the 80's in the UK. Always some clown catching the output from the exhaust (water) and drinking it.

There's a filling point in Clayton and another in Brisbane as they test vehicles.

CSIRO are working on a way of transporting it as a liquid.


Colin

[JDNSW]

The major problem with hydrogen is that it is much more difficult to store and transport than LPG. LPG, as the name implies is liquid at normal temperatures and quite modest pressures.

To liquefy hydrogen it needs to be cooled to at least minus two hundred and forty degrees and -250C if you don't want high pressure. The alternative is to store it at (very high) pressure. A possible alternative is to convert it to some sort of hydride or ammonia for storage - but these have their own issues.

Then there are other issues - hydrogen can permeate through almost anything, especially at high pressure. And forms an explosive mixture with air at mixtures from 4-74%. Add to that, the flame is almost colourless, On the other hand it is lower density than air, so in many cases a leak disperses where LPG would accumulate dangerously. Practical vehicle storage of hydrogen is heavy, especially for small vehicles.

But the really big elephant in the room is efficiency. To go from grid power to a battery in a vehicle to an electric motor to drive a vehicle is about 90% efficient. To go from grid power to hydrogen to vehicle storage to fuel cell to an electric motor to run the vehicle is at best 60% efficient, and in practice less. Use the hydrogen to run a conventional engine, and drop that to probably 30%. Only feasible on a large scale if power is near free.

However, it is likely to be a feasible fuel for very large vehicles (trains, ships, maybe trucks) as storage becomes much less of a problem.

[gromit]

The major problem with hydrogen is that it is much more difficult to store and transport than LPG. LPG, as the name implies is liquid at normal temperatures and quite modest pressures.

To liquefy hydrogen it needs to be cooled to at least minus two hundred and forty degrees and -250C if you don't want high pressure. The alternative is to store it at (very high) pressure. A possible alternative is to convert it to some sort of hydride or ammonia for storage - but these have their own issues.

Then there are other issues - hydrogen can permeate through almost anything, especially at high pressure. And forms an explosive mixture with air at mixtures from 4-74%. Add to that, the flame is almost colourless, On the other hand it is lower density than air, so in many cases a leak disperses where LPG would accumulate dangerously. Practical vehicle storage of hydrogen is heavy, especially for small vehicles.

But the really big elephant in the room is efficiency. To go from grid power to a battery in a vehicle to an electric motor to drive a vehicle is about 90% efficient. To go from grid power to hydrogen to vehicle storage to fuel cell to an electric motor to run the vehicle is at best 60% efficient, and in practice less. Use the hydrogen to run a conventional engine, and drop that to probably 30%. Only feasible on a large scale if power is near free.

However, it is likely to be a feasible fuel for very large vehicles (trains, ships, maybe trucks) as storage becomes much less of a problem.

CSIRO were looking at converting to ammonia as one option.

Ineos have been promoting hydrogen INEOS & The Hydrogen Revolution | INEOS Grenadier AU (https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/au/explore/ineos-group/hydrogen-fuel-economy)
They produce lots and are looking at setting up 'green hydrogen production' across Europe.

Using the hydrogen to produce synthetic fuel would be less efficient again but would solve the distribution and 'in vehicle' storage issues.


Colin

[Tins]

The industry is in its infancy, sure, but it's growing. Just one example:
(https://www.glpautogas.info/en/hydrogen-stations-australia.html)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

You may need to take notes......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ6Ir42fvtU

[Tins]

Hydrogen is low octane, low power huh?


https://youtu.be/RAEhhYqMEBE

[NavyDiver]

Here is one for you John

" BHP's Yandi iron ore mine is working with BP on a trial of "hydrotreated vegetable oil" for haul trucks and other mining equipment." from Resources industry report card spruiks 'climate action'

"Hydrotreated Vegetable OilHVO is a paraffinic bio-based liquid, with the chemical structure Cn H2n+2, originating from vegetable oil or animal fat.
From: Fuel, 2014 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016236113006005)
"

BPs version is "bp has acquired a 30% stake in Green Biofuels Ltd (GBF), the UK’s largest provider of hydrogenated vegetable oil (HVO)."
Link to GBF (https://www.gbf.ltd/)


BHP Link BP to Link GBF is linked to Hydrogen https://hotcopper.com.au/styles/default/xenforo/clear.png

The Word HYDROGENATED is the link - It means "charged or combined with hydrogen"

IF GBF, BHP and BP are reducing Green House gasses they may not like the emissions from Steam Methane Reformed Hydrogen. Hazer has the solution!

[NavyDiver]

SAF or sustainable aviation fuel is interesting as It is supposed to work in existing Jet engines Apparently and allegedly and might or might not[thumbsupbig]

The Aussie involved is 2021 only so not really on my radar. Air NZ is also in the Picture so IT may or MAY NOT be thing [thumbsupbig]?



"Jet Zero Australia Partners with LanzaJet to Deploy its Leading Alcohol-to-Jet (ATJ) Technology with Funding and Support by Qantas Group, Airbus, and Queensland Government to Progress Towards Australia’s First ATJ Sustainable Aviation Fuel Production PlantQUEENSLAND, March 30, 2023 — LanzaJet, a leading sustainable fuels technology company and sustainable fuels producer, today announced it is collaborating with Jet Zero Australia to start project development to progress towards the deployment of its leading LanzaJet Alcohol-to-Jet (ATJ) technology for a sustainable aviation fuel production plant in Queensland. The plant, which could be Australia’s first ATJ sustainable aviation fuel (SAF) production facility, is supported by the Queensland Government, Qantas, and Airbus as part of the Australian SAF Partnership.
SAF has been identified by airlines, governments, and energy leaders as the clearest and most immediate solution to decarbonizing aviation, which amounts to approximately 3% of global carbon dioxide emissions, with Australia being the second-biggest emitter of carbon per capita on domestic air travel. LanzaJet’s leading and proprietary technology, which has been developed and scaled for over a decade, produces drop-in, low-carbon intensity sustainable aviation fuel from ethanol for airlines to utilize without any aircraft or aviation infrastructure modifications.
“As exciting as it is for LanzaJet to deploy its alcohol-to-jet technology to decarbonize aviation in Australia, it is equally gratifying to know its impact in developing the domestic agricultural industry, providing a path for energy security, and enhancing the country’s national security posture and greater fuel independence,” said Jimmy Samartzis, CEO of LanzaJet. “We have enjoyed the privilege of partnering with public and private sector leaders around the world to fight climate change and enable the global energy transition, and this is an important step forward in Australia. All parties involved in Jet Zero Australia and the Australian SAF Partnership, from global aviation leaders in Qantas Group and Airbus to the Queensland Government are serious in their commitment to scaling SAF production at the urgency our planet needs. LanzaJet looks forward to seeing the impact this project has on Australia’s domestic biofuels industry as well as the larger global impact.”"

[RANDLOVER]

SAF or sustainable aviation fuel is interesting as It is supposed to work in existing Jet engines Apparently and allegedly and might or might not[thumbsupbig]..............”"

In addition to alcohol derived jet fuel there is also a synthetic jet fuel made from fat, tallow, etc......High-fat flight is the first jetliner to make fossil fuel-free flight from London to New York - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-29/high-fat-flight-is-first-jetliner-to-make-fossil-fuel-free-trip/103166958)

[V8Ian]

I'd be a bit hesitant to hop aboard any aircraft, running on Fossy fuel, brewed by blk.night. [bighmmm]

[scarry]

I'd be a bit hesitant to hop aboard any aircraft, running on Fossy fuel, brewed by blk.night. [bighmmm]

A free parachute,with how to use instructions,written in Chinese, might be included in the airfare?[bigrolf]