EV reality

[superquag]

Making a few enquiries about EV ownership, and "Insurance". came up. A mate in the business just gave the advice, - "DON't," - Premium will make your eyes water. (Pensioner, so easy to do !) and a fire in a multi level park would send them into Low Earth Orbit. His company is not keen on the potential 3rd party liability.

Self--explanatory, and the short videos are... Informative.

Prof. PAUL CHRISTENSEN Electric Vehicle Battery Fires SUBSCRIBE NOW - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIXTP-TgPEw)


and, The Real Reason Behind EV Fire Incidents - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oTHsVnIIg)


For fans of Cadogan,,,,, - mind the language. A giant battery caught fire.

When we recall Land Rover's (in)famous history of electrical robust reliability... A battery bush-basher would not be on my short-list.

[Hall]

So some thing as small as a cordless drill could do serious damage, let alone a EV. I saw a film of a EV that had been pushed into a river and was burning under water. Some time soon I hope the people that have with out question believed all the so called experts get a reality check. There is one at work and I`m sure that if I show him this video he will denounce as misinformation.
Cheers Hall

[p38arover]

The EV fan bois decry any posts/threads/videos about EV fires - it’s not as bad as they say.

[Homestar]

Apart from the diabolically toxic fumes, the inability to put them out and the fact the public are Guinea pigs to the whole experiment with no say on being subjected to the poisons they produce when the go bang bang.

If you were doing an OH&S study into bringing new plant into a factory and came up against the facts of an EV fire you’d never implement said tech - Workcover would string you up, but here we are letting Joe Public and our fire fighters get injured by them because of greenwashing and money.

[Tins]

Now, now... FUD, remember?

[prelude]

FUD, I do remember. It's what is being used against our youth convincing them the planet is going to die soon right? ;)

Not sure how OZ will fare but around me the anecdotal reports are beginning to stack up. Power grid reliability is down (en a western european country which is a ridiculous thought) , getting a higher rated hookup to the grid so that you can actually charge your EV is getting more and more difficult, people getting warnings from the power companies that if they use more power than amount X they will be treated as an industrial consumer (with dito service, costs, etc.) and the list goes on and an. Insurance over here is not a thing (yet) partially because our government has quite tight rules on what is and what is not allowed. Still, we are moving towards the 2027 deadline where netting (ie when you deliver power from your solar to the grid) is being phased out and all subsidies on EV's are about to expire. I predict a **** storm. Stack on top of that the issues with the batteries both short and long term and I do not believe this is going to be regarded as a

Is that all the fault of the EV? probably not. What I do suspect is that we will be looking back on this and conclude that the order in which we have done things was wrong.

Anyhow, no, I dabbled with EV's way back in the very early naughties, designed a whole car (well took an old S class to convert actually) but I ended up concluding that it was not my thing. I never considered lithium anyway.

Ah well, we must take care that we are not seen as old men shouting at the clouds?

Cheers,
-P

[spudfan]

Over here, with the GREEN PARTY part of a three party government, EV's are being heavily pushed and apparently there are no downsides at all and we are all going to drive them by 2030 and save the planet. HYBRIDS are being pushed too despite the fact they use more fuel when driven in that mode. Anyway we will see how second hand prices hold up in years to come. When people are being told that this latest EV does X amount more than your "old" four year old one and it's battery will last X amount longer and this X amount of time to charge, who will buy the older (4 year old)model? That is not very "green" having all of those used cars hanging about.

[goingbush]

Theres a lot of BS out there.

Simple fact is if your a fan you will buy one, if you not you wont.

Electric car insurance premiums compared (https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/electric-car-insurance-premiums-compared)


I'll never buy an EV , not that I don't like EV , I just don't like modern cars.

My EV '73 Landy is the best car i have ever had , Full stop. (Because its EV, not because its a Land Rover) And the Insurance via Shannons is very cheap.

If I decide I need an EV with more range than the Landy , ( I cant forsee that) I'll buy a cheap 2WD ICE car & convert it using Nissan Leaf / Tesla parts or whatever is the flavour of the day if and when I need to do it.

[DoubleChevron]

All the known issues aside .... the biggest downfall of the EV is the battery will start dying at around 5 years of age (it is the same technology as your laptop, phone, drills ... etc... how long do your batteries last for in them??). As soon as you take into account a minimum of one, possibly two battery changes in the cars lifetime (average car age is about 12 years). At a minimum of $20,000 for a new battery, guess how much 5 year old electric cars coming off lease will be worth. If you guessed "nothing/disposal costs" you are probably close to right.

I have no doubt they will become hideously expensive to dispose of as the battery is quite dangerous to just leave sitting (imagine one torching itself in a wrecking yard with a few hundred other electric cars sitting around it :eek::eek::eek: ). The lunacy surrounding "the batteries will be recycled" is all smoke and mirrors. There is no real way to recycle these, so they will end up as extraordinarily dangerous landfill. I wouldn't be surprised if the batteries end up being tracked so if they are dumped, someone somewhere will be held liable for disposal costs.

The scariest idea is we will end up with yards full of these batteries "waiting" to be "recycled" (like all those chemical warehouses that have "accidentally" burnt down in melbourne). And while they are sitting waiting to be recycled one of the batteries torches off lighting up all of the other batteries :eek:

From every perspecitve I can think of, the battery cars are bad for the environment. Even if its simply because they will be thrown away while still "like new" because the battery has died.

[cripesamighty]

You are such a pessimist. It's not like an EV fire burns hot and gives off toxic gases. Oh wait...

https://www.ri.se/sites/default/files/2020-12/FIVE2020_Willstrand.pdf


This is the main reason why I charge my EV scooter in the backyard away from the house.

[goingbush]

All the known issues aside .... the biggest downfall of the EV is the battery will start dying at around 5 years of age (it is the same technology as your laptop, phone, drills ... etc... how long do your batteries last for in them??). As soon as you take into account a minimum of one, possibly two battery changes in the cars lifetime (average car age is about 12 years). At a minimum of $20,000 for a new battery, guess how much 5 year old electric cars coming off lease will be worth. If you guessed "nothing/disposal costs" you are probably close to right.

I have no doubt they will become hideously expensive to dispose of as the battery is quite dangerous to just leave sitting (imagine one torching itself in a wrecking yard with a few hundred other electric cars sitting around it :eek::eek::eek: ). The lunacy surrounding "the batteries will be recycled" is all smoke and mirrors. There is no real way to recycle these, so they will end up as extraordinarily dangerous landfill. I wouldn't be surprised if the batteries end up being tracked so if they are dumped, someone somewhere will be held liable for disposal costs.

The scariest idea is we will end up with yards full of these batteries "waiting" to be "recycled" (like all those chemical warehouses that have "accidentally" burnt down in melbourne). And while they are sitting waiting to be recycled one of the batteries torches off lighting up all of the other batteries :eek:

From every perspecitve I can think of, the battery cars are bad for the environment. Even if its simply because they will be thrown away while still "like new" because the battery has died.

I cant blame anyone for having such opinions / the internet is so full of such false information, & its very prevalent in AULRO .

All Lithium batteries are not created equal.

There is a lot of scaremongery & false info about EV batteries due to R/C model, Drone & Scooter batteries .

Yes Phones & computer batteries have Lithium batteries But do you know of or ever heard of one catching fire . I sure as hell would not charge them in the house of they were dangerous . You would not be allowed to bring them onto aircraft if that was the case ( Like RC batteries are banned)

Likewise EV batteries dont just die after 5 years like a Phone or Computer battery does . Mine is 6 years old & I'm only about 500 charge cycles into an estimated 3000 . It will last another 25 years in my scenario.

A battery in a recycle yard can't just catch fire of its own accord. There are more cases of instentanious human combustion than battery fires.

Its a Fact that ICE cars are far more likely to catch fire & burn than a EV .

EV batteries are very easy to recycle, the best scenario is repurposing in House battery or Grid backup battery . Not to mention EV Conversions . Any smashed EV are soon stripped & sold off for EV conversions , No EV batteries end up in scrap yards , just your evil Phone & computer batteries .

[DoubleChevron]

I cant blame anyone for having such opinions / the internet is so full of such false information, & its very prevalent in AULRO .

All Lithium batteries are not created equal.

There is a lot of scaremongery & false info about EV batteries due to R/C model, Drone & Scooter batteries .

Yes Phones & computer batteries have Lithium batteries But do you know of or ever heard of one catching fire . I sure as hell would not charge them in the house of they were dangerous . You would not be allowed to bring them onto aircraft if that was the case ( Like RC batteries are banned)

Likewise EV batteries dont just die after 5 years like a Phone or Computer battery does . Mine is 6 years old & I'm only about 500 charge cycles into an estimated 3000 . It will last another 25 years in my scenario.

A battery in a recycle yard can't just catch fire of its own accord. There are more cases of instentanious human combustion than battery fires.

Its a Fact that ICE cars are far more likely to catch fire & burn than a EV .

EV batteries are very easy to recycle, the best scenario is repurposing in House battery or Grid backup battery . Not to mention EV Conversions . Any smashed EV are soon stripped & sold off for EV conversions , No EV batteries end up in scrap yards , just your evil Phone & computer batteries .

Time will tell. I'm certainly not a believer until proven otherwise :) I have no dog in this fight so don't really mind either way. However I simply don't believe those batteries are going to last. and yes, the are torching off quite often. That airport carpark in UK was obviously taken out by the lithium battery in the range rover hybrid ..... lets not talk, busses, trucks .... even just the batteries alone are torching off (those big telsa batteries hooked up to the power grid)

All cars burn, the issue i have with lithium battery fires is they can't be put out .... all you can do is run for your life. Imagine if that cement truck that torched itself in australia had been in a tunnel ...... :eek:

I'd rekcon an electric car should be something liek the citroen oli .... small, functional, little battery .... enough to do the majories daily driving duties.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAdlm8-h_GE&pp=ygULY2l0cm9lbiBvbGk%3D

I'm not anti-electric car ... I'm anti-stupidity. and the electric car just isn't there yet IMO .... and I'd have to be stupid to even consider one.

[goingbush]

Time will tell. I'm certainly not a believer until proven otherwise :) I have no dog in this fight so don't really mind either way. However I simply don't believe those batteries are going to last. and yes, the are torching off quite often. That airport carpark in UK was obviously taken out by the lithium battery in the range rover hybrid ..... lets not talk, busses, trucks .... even just the batteries alone are torching off (those big telsa batteries hooked up to the power grid)

All cars burn, the issue i have with lithium battery fires is they can't be put out .... all you can do is run for your life. Imagine if that cement truck that torched itself in australia had been in a tunnel ...... :eek:

I'd rekcon an electric car should be something liek the citroen oli .... small, functional, little battery .... enough to do the majories daily driving duties.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAdlm8-h_GE&pp=ygULY2l0cm9lbiBvbGk%3D

I'm not anti-electric car ... I'm anti-stupidity. and the electric car just isn't there yet IMO .... and I'd have to be stupid to even consider one.


!00% Agree .
You didnt initially mention Hybrid. Hybrids are a huge problem. WAY more likely to catch fire than ICE . EV are far less likely to catch fire than iCE . Hybrid combines the worst of ICE & the worst of EV into one package . I'd never ever own one, you have to be totally mad to think they are a good thing.

And Yes also in agreeance EV should be small runabouts ,
Why cart about a huge battery in an expensive car when 99% of trips are less than 100km. For the other 1% take the bus or an ICE car.

[Homestar]

!00% Agree .
You didnt initially mention Hybrid. Hybrids are a huge problem. WAY more likely to catch fire than ICE . EV are far less likely to catch fire than iCE . Hybrid combines the worst of ICE & the worst of EV into one package . I'd never ever own one, you have to be totally mad to think they are a good thing.



Can't see why a Yota Hybird would catch fire - they have Nickel Metal Hydride batteries in them - they haven't even got to the Lithium stage yet, but some PHEV's might. Some Prius's caught fire around 5 years ago and Toyota recalled a ****load to fix this but I haven't heard this being an issue recently.

I'm all ears on why a Hybrid is so terrible - My partner has a RAV4 Hybrid as a work car and it does 4.7 Litres per hundred around town and 6.5 on the highway with no worries ever of range anxiety. It's bloody comfy to drive too. I think some people think there's magic inside that will save them petrol on long trips which is where the Hybrid is at it's worst but it still isn't bad on the juice even then IMO. She has roofracks on the car all the time too for both work stuff and our Kayaks on the weekend so that has added around 0.5 per 100 to the usage on the highway. It's amid spec vehicle and was around $45K on the road a couple of years back, which makes them much more affordable than an EV as well. Maybe I'm missing something but after 2 years of ownership we haven't seen a downside - it's actually one of the best cars we've had.

[DoubleChevron]

Can't see why a Yota Hybird would catch fire - they have Nickel Metal Hydride batteries in them - they haven't even got to the Lithium stage yet, but some PHEV's might. Some Prius's caught fire around 5 years ago and Toyota recalled a ****load to fix this but I haven't heard this being an issue recently.

I'm all ears on why a Hybrid is so terrible - My partner has a RAV4 Hybrid as a work car and it does 4.7 Litres per hundred around town and 6.5 on the highway with no worries ever of range anxiety. It's bloody comfy to drive too. I think some people think there's magic inside that will save them petrol on long trips which is where the Hybrid is at it's worst but it still isn't bad on the juice even then IMO. She has roofracks on the car all the time too for both work stuff and our Kayaks on the weekend so that has added around 0.5 per 100 to the usage on the highway. It's amid spec vehicle and was around $45K on the road a couple of years back, which makes them much more affordable than an EV as well. Maybe I'm missing something but after 2 years of ownership we haven't seen a downside - it's actually one of the best cars we've had.

I just worry about carrying around the dead battery when the car is about 5years old. It would be statistically like winning tattslotto for the battery to torch off... .but there has been a ****load of people winning tattlotto lately ... taking parking structures, entire ships .... etc with them.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/11/16/76432259-12619137-Investigators_believe_last_night_s_blaze_at_Luton_ airport_s_mult-a-32_1697037079689.jpg

This is what took out the airport carpark in the UK. a range rovers battery torched off. It's probably an 8 year old battery than decided it was done .... So it torches off and ignites the electric cars around it and we have a fire that is hot enough to melt concrete and metal (so we take the entire building out due to a small lithium battery).

scary right?

I'm for electric cars when we can swap the batteries like we can in a power drill. Until then, they are just insanely expensive due to battery replacement (and no doubt soon disposal) costs. Ican see these things become immensely expensive to dispose of as they are so dangerous (forgetting the fact they are incredibly difficult to recycle ... if it is even possible).

The actual idea of electric cars is brilliant.... But this push to tell everyone they must have one is insane. There isn't enough raw materials to build even a fraction of the batteries we need, there isn't the charging infrastructure. the isnt' the power network across the world to charge them (as it is on hot/cold days, most 1st world countries are running out of power generation capacity). Most people don't live somewhere they can can charge them overnight ( do you want hundreds of thousands of extension leads running across footpaths from the houses out onto the streets charging cars?).

The hysteria around electric cars is just insane, and I don't quite understand it. They will simply become a small part of the transport infrastructure driven by those that want them .... and that's the end of the story. The mandates and insanity being rammed down everyones throat is just crazy. I don't like the pro or anti electric car stuff that is going on.... I'm a car junkie and I like cars ... I couldn't care if other peoples tastes are different to mine... infact, this is a part of what makes cars interesting. Just let people make there own choices and be done with it :)

seeya
Shane L.

[Tins]

Yes Phones & computer batteries have Lithium batteries But do you know of or ever heard of one catching fire . I sure as hell would not charge them in the house of they were dangerous .

Err, Samsung Galaxy Note 7?? Banned from aircraft precisely because they caught fire.

[NavyDiver]

I cant blame anyone for having such opinions / the internet is so full of such false information, & its very prevalent in AULRO .

All Lithium batteries are not created equal.

There is a lot of scaremongery & false info about EV batteries due to R/C model, Drone & Scooter batteries .

Yes Phones & computer batteries have Lithium batteries But do you know of or ever heard of one catching fire . I sure as hell would not charge them in the house of they were dangerous . You would not be allowed to bring them onto aircraft if that was the case ( Like RC batteries are banned)

Likewise EV batteries dont just die after 5 years like a Phone or Computer battery does . Mine is 6 years old & I'm only about 500 charge cycles into an estimated 3000 . It will last another 25 years in my scenario.

A battery in a recycle yard can't just catch fire of its own accord. There are more cases of instentanious human combustion than battery fires.

Its a Fact that ICE cars are far more likely to catch fire & burn than a EV .

EV batteries are very easy to recycle, the best scenario is repurposing in House battery or Grid backup battery . Not to mention EV Conversions . Any smashed EV are soon stripped & sold off for EV conversions , No EV batteries end up in scrap yards , just your evil Phone & computer batteries .

That made me chuckle thanks! Watch, Computer, portable sat GPS for hiking, EPIRB, Defibrator.............

My dad did get a dodgy cheap e-bike years ago. It did burn :)

Insurance on my new one is $$1501.47

Of a side note the insurance on my 2010 Disco was very close :)

As noted in another thread a battery swap was done on another car here. Under a day. A battery swap IF needed in five years with the New tech which is expected to be 40% cheaper by 2030 may or may not be needed :)If it was my current 400km (ish) range will be 1200km ish.

It's amazing the anti 'this or that' we all can see. Facts and physics are more interesting than the BS from either side :)

[DoubleChevron]

That made me chuckle thanks! Watch, Computer, portable sat GPS for hiking, EPIRB, Defibrator.............

My dad did get a dodgy cheap e-bike years ago. It did burn :)

Insurance on my new one is $$1501.47

Of a side note the insurance on my 2010 Disco was very close :)

As noted in another thread a battery swap was done on another car here. Under a day. A battery swap IF needed in five years with the New tech which is expected to be 40% cheaper by 2030 may or may not be needed :)If it was my current 400km (ish) range will be 1200km ish.

It's amazing the anti 'this or that' we all can see. Facts and physics are more interesting than the BS from either side :)

Batteries will never get cheaper unless we get a new technology. Demand drives pricing ... and demand far exceeds supply.



I'm all for electric cars, but am tired of the downplaying or outright lying that seems to be everywhere about them. the fire statistics if you google it are just laughably badly recorded. even when pictures and videos show electric cars or batteries torching off .... its not listed as a battery fire ... that new zealand fire there is video of the car torching the house off ... "not related to the electric car". The parking garage in the UK. "a diesel range rover started the fire". FFS: the lithium battery on it torched off. it was nothing to do with the diesel part of the car. That would have been a fire that could be controlled and not taken out the parking structure.

I'm not anti-electric, but I HATE being lied to. especially when the statistics that are playing in the media are so obviously far from factual.

[p38arover]

I also posted this on the EV - Battery fires its all media hype? thread on the Whirlpool forum, it's likely to be deleted like my last post which they considered trolling.

The software this fire chief uses to identify how to deactivate cars is interesting. Ditto his comments on the battery pack segments in this particular vehicle being physically isolated from each other.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_myL0RDibA

[NavyDiver]

Batteries will never get cheaper unless we get a new technology. Demand drives pricing ... and demand far exceeds supply.

Electric vehicle prices will soar. Here's why… — Auto Expert by John Cadogan - save thousands on your next new car! (https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/electric-vehicle-prices-will-soar-heres-why)

I'm all for electric cars, but am tired of the downplaying or outright lying that seems to be everywhere about them. the fire statistics if you google it are just laughably badly recorded. even when pictures and videos show electric cars or batteries torching off .... its not listed as a battery fire ... that new zealand fire there is video of the car torching the house off ... "not related to the electric car". The parking garage in the UK. "a diesel range rover started the fire". FFS: the lithium battery on it torched off. it was nothing to do with the diesel part of the car. That would have been a fire that could be controlled and not taken out the parking structure.

I'm not anti-electric, but I HATE being lied to. especially when the statistics that are playing in the media are so obviously far from factual.

Johns opinions are well known. The expectations that the huge new factories built or being build now for Solid state batteries bring down battery cost is a lot like Fords mass production of the Model a over a century ago?

Goodmans Sach are not quacks? Try 2025 perhaps? Electric vehicle battery prices are falling faster than expected (https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/pages/electric-vehicle-battery-prices-falling.html)

A breif cut "Battery pack prices are now expected to fall by an average of 11% per year from 2023 to 2030, writes Nikhil Bhandari, co-head of Goldman Sachs Research’s Asia-Pacific Natural Resources and Clean Energy Research, in the team’s report."

Its not my research of course. A Company I hold some shares in is Quantumscape (https://www.quantumscape.com/). It is in the about to add a huge supply line in 2025. I might be wrong of course. John on the other hand might be [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

[DoubleChevron]

I also posted this on the EV - Battery fires its all media hype? thread on the Whirlpool forum, it's likely to be deleted like my last post which they considered trolling.

The software this fire chief uses to identify how to deactivate cars is interesting. Ditto his comments on the battery pack segments in this particular vehicle being physically isolated from each other.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_myL0RDibA


There will always be fires with every form of transports. I just don't like the way this is all being portrayed. I'm trying not to sound anti-ev (as even though I have no intention of owning one .... they sure are interesting). But the fire aspect really does concern me. Statistically its going to be quite rare ( but it will always happen .... just like there is almost always a tattslotto winner).

I don't really care about the fact they stop working in cold environments ... stop workng in extreme heat environments. That isn't most of the world, if you live somewhere like that, common sense should say " Don't buy and electric car ". Rather than the crazyness the is going on.

Its not that they can burn (though most likely wouldn't). Its the fact they cannot be put out, and they burn so hot, they will take out any structure they are located in.

There will be an answer for this created at some point, but lets not try to hide the issues. They need to be dealt with, not hidden.

[DoubleChevron]

Johns opinions are well known. The expectations that the huge new factories built or being build now for Solid state batteries bring down battery cost is a lot like Fords mass production of the Model a over a century ago?

Goodmans Sach are not quacks? Try 2025 perhaps? Electric vehicle battery prices are falling faster than expected (https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/pages/electric-vehicle-battery-prices-falling.html)

A breif cut "Battery pack prices are now expected to fall by an average of 11% per year from 2023 to 2030, writes Nikhil Bhandari, co-head of Goldman Sachs Research’s Asia-Pacific Natural Resources and Clean Energy Research, in the team’s report."

Its not my research of course. A Company I hold some shares in is Quantumscape (https://www.quantumscape.com/). It is in the about to add a huge supply line in 2025. I might be wrong of course. John on the other hand might be [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Forget those that are trying to sell you the things. The mining industry has foretasted they cannot even come close to meeting global requirements.... even if every known lithium/nickel mine in the world miraculously somehow opens and starts producing.

Supply and demand. it sets pricing. When demand far outstrips supply ... guess what happens.....

This is the sort of thing I was talking about. Why is the electric car lobby so strong ? it makes no sense.... why are they believed when what they are saying is so obviously preposterous to even the least educated person....

You know it is always possible. A lot of manufactures are cancelling there plans for electric car investment regardless of government intervention, as they aren't stupid and can see its a hopelessly money loosing venture. Not just because they cannot get costs down anywhere close the ICE vehicles .... but mainly because consumers are just not buying them. No-one buying electric cars means less demand ... which means supply may suddnely outstrip demand .... so the battery cost could come down. If only we had one of those crystal ball things :)

[Homestar]

Johns opinions are well known. The expectations that the huge new factories built or being build now for Solid state batteries bring down battery cost is a lot like Fords mass production of the Model a over a century ago?

Goodmans Sach are not quacks? Try 2025 perhaps? Electric vehicle battery prices are falling faster than expected (https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/pages/electric-vehicle-battery-prices-falling.html)

A breif cut "Battery pack prices are now expected to fall by an average of 11% per year from 2023 to 2030, writes Nikhil Bhandari, co-head of Goldman Sachs Research’s Asia-Pacific Natural Resources and Clean Energy Research, in the team’s report."

Its not my research of course. A Company I hold some shares in is Quantumscape (https://www.quantumscape.com/). It is in the about to add a huge supply line in 2025. I might be wrong of course. John on the other hand might be [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

The arguments for an against what might happen to lithium battery prices kind of remind me of an old economics joke - There are 2 types of Economists - those that can't predict future global economic trends and those that don't know they can't predict future global economic trends...

I'm firmly in the 'Wait and see' camp although our recent purchases of some 125KWH batteries were dramatically cheaper than what we were quoted just 12 months ago - around 20% less overall and the OEM is saying their forecast is showing no shortages in the short term - which is code for 'We can supply until we can't'

[DoubleChevron]

The arguments for an against what might happen to lithium battery prices kind of remind me of an old economics joke - There are 2 types of Economists - those that can't predict future global economic trends and those that don't know they can't predict future global economic trends...

I'm firmly in the 'Wait and see' camp although our recent purchases of some 125KWH batteries were dramatically cheaper than what we were quoted just 12 months ago - around 20% less overall and the OEM is saying their forecast is showing no shortages in the short term - which is code for 'We can supply until we can't'

For the house? Check they aren't on the recall list ... those suckers are burning too ..........................

[NavyDiver]

The arguments for an against what might happen to lithium battery prices kind of remind me of an old economics joke - There are 2 types of Economists - those that can't predict future global economic trends and those that don't know they can't predict future global economic trends...

I'm firmly in the 'Wait and see' camp although our recent purchases of some 125KWH batteries were dramatically cheaper than what we were quoted just 12 months ago - around 20% less overall and the OEM is saying their forecast is showing no shortages in the short term - which is code for 'We can supply until we can't'


Love Economic and your thoughts are valid on them. Never just two types of economists I would like to argue[biggrin][biggrin] there is 'At least' thirty diverse opinions from any 3 economists on any 'one' topic[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

Appreciate the information from the likes of the company I mentioned are likely to be rosy unless the stuff hits the fan.

RE nickel, graphite, and spodumene (lithium).
If we believed the wind/solar is 100% of the time via a week or two grid sized battery storage I appreciate there is not enough metals in the world.

Graphite and hydrogen from my favorite WA poo farm are still in my happy zone along with a huge supply deficit of my other favorite energy type:twobeers:. 1st of Feb and 8thof Feb may require [B]a very nice bottle to celebrate.