some Ethanol info

[Michael96130]

I found this site, some will find it interesting.

http://www.fcai.com.au/ethanol/
Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries (FCAI)

Mick

[RobHay]

I worked in PNG for years and we had ethanol in the fuel there, I drove MQ Nissan Patrol and I didn't notice any drop in performance after the ethanol was introduced, what I did notice was that it ate my carby. true

[JDNSW]

I worked in PNG for years and we had ethanol in the fuel there, I drove MQ Nissan Patrol and I didn't notice any drop in performance after the ethanol was introduced, what I did notice was that it ate my carby. true

One of the problems with ethanol is that it is hygroscopic - that is, it absorbs water. I can just visualise it sucking water out of the air in a place like PNG, and, of course, this will help things like carburetters to corrode.

John

[Phoenix]

One issue with ethanol is that As I understand it, it can have a detrimental effect on fuel pums in older vehicles (coming from a mate with a Willys jeep). Apparently there is a diaghphram in them that reacts with ethanol.

Ok is the fuel is labeled as containing it, not so good if it isn't :(

[LoadedDisco]

So out of all that would it be ok to use Ethanol in a new Disco.
Any Help.

[chazza]

So out of all that would it be ok to use Ethanol in a new Disco.
Any Help.

Ethanol fuel, despite all the bulldust the Govt. tells us, is the worst fuel to use. As JDNSW points out it absorbs water and we all know water doesn't burn! The calorific value of ethanol is very poor, so petrol engines will lose power and use more fuel. The cost to the environment of producing ethanol far outweighs any gain.

Why is it being pushed by the Govt? Because the farmers' lobby, especially in the USA, want to be paid to grow corn that nobody really needs - and what is good for George W is good for Australia, if Mr Howard's past record is any indication.

Avoid ethanol like the plague, if you love your Rover!

[vnx205]

and we all know water doesn't burn!
In about the 1950s, water/alcohol injectors were flavour of the month. I think they had been found useful in preventing the supercharged engines in fighter planes from overheating or pre-ignition problems at sea level.
My father bought one and fitted it to a 30cwt Commer truck and designed and made a much better one which he fitted to our 1936 Plymouth.
It added a small amount of metho and water to the fuel/air mix at the carby.
I'm not going to claim that it worked, but one January as we were towing an 18ft caravan up the Pacific Highway, it was so hot that truck tyres had rolled up sections of melted bitumen and there were current model Holdens pulled up on the side of the road with their bonnets up and steam gushing out of their radiators.
The old Plymouth, which didn't even have a water pump but just relied on convection to circulate the water showed no signs of getting hot.
I think the general consensus though was that it was a waste of time.
Water may not burn, but in certain circumstances it might be a useful addition to the fuel/air mixture as some sort of aid to combustion (especiallly if your LR is fitted with a high compression supercharged aircraft engine).

[Bigbjorn]

They were used then because our petrol was of relatively low octane and many post-war cars needed higher octane fuel, hence the introduction of "super" petrol about 1956-57. Water injection prevented the pinging you got when setting to manufacturer's specs on "standard" petrol. A side effect was that water injected engines were always clean inside when you pulled the head for the regular decokes and valve grinds needed then.You never found the heavy build-ups of carbon on the pistons and combustion chambers normally found in standard engines of the time.

The sales & use of these items faded away in a couple of years after the introduction of "super" petrol.

[nobbydoldrums]

From the most basic thermodynamics, putting a bit of water in the cylinder with the fuel / air mixture can give you more expansion as the water turns to steam and hence substantially more volumetric efficiency. The same reason why power stations use steam cycles instead of air or direct combustion.

Unfortunately, water injectors and their plumbing tend to corrode and block up plus water in the crankcase isn't nice (if say 1 cylinder fails to fire). It also adds an extra level of complexity to engines - which car makers tend to avoid but car enthusiasts love.

(Edit) Forgot to add that water also lowers the exhaust temp which means you can run higher CR without knocking. This is probably the main advantage

[JDNSW]

Ethanol fuel, despite all the bulldust the Govt. tells us, is the worst fuel to use. As JDNSW points out it absorbs water and we all know water doesn't burn! The calorific value of ethanol is very poor, so petrol engines will lose power and use more fuel. The cost to the environment of producing ethanol far outweighs any gain.

Why is it being pushed by the Govt? Because the farmers' lobby, especially in the USA, want to be paid to grow corn that nobody really needs - and what is good for George W is good for Australia, if Mr Howard's past record is any indication.

Avoid ethanol like the plague, if you love your Rover!

Ethanol from corn has a greater environmental cost than what it saves, or at best breaks even. However, ethanol from sugar cane as in Australia or Brazil has a positive environmental benefit, at least as far as the CO2 budget goes. The US and Australian situations are different because the crops used are different.

John

[George130]

We had a Datsun 240K with the 6 cylinder 2 litre race engine in it. It had water injection. Only ever used the water injection when we were mixing fuels. We would put even amounts of leaded and high octane in and then work it hard. It ran cooler with the water and as said didn't ping so you could push it that little bit harder.

[LoadedDisco]

Thanks for the info guys I have used half a tank and no power loss noted but what has been mentioned I don't think I will use it again.

[moose]

I've seen plenty of commodore's with corroded fuel lines (steel lines) and injectors blocked with said corrosion. :(

[4bee]

Water injection is not a recent thing, being available in Akeroyd - Stuart's Hot Bulb Oil Engine in 1886. Later to become the Hornsby - Akeroyd Engine.
Under heavy working, it put a steam cushion above the piston.

The old saying, "there's nothing new in all the world".:D

[Jeff]

Don't know much about ethanol, but I know a bit about methanol and the side effects sound similar.
Methanol is common in motorsport, Indy cars, speedway bikes, classic bikes all use it. Unlike your road car or bike they are drained after a meeting as it will eat into non anodized aluminium, it will also absorb water and become jelly like if left open to the atmosphere necessitating stripping of carbs, fuel pumps etc. I see it being impractical for road use except in weak blends.

As for water injection it was more a mist than a running tap as engines generally run better when the air is more dense, like early morning, compared to when the air is dry. Like drag racers who often go faster at night even though the cold track affords less traction.

Jeff