likely head problem

[ninchi]

From FB, I acquired this beauty today. I got it cheap and now I think I know why.

190866

Just now I saw a warning on facebook from a few weeks ago that this one was known to have a head issue. Oops.

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There were no indicators of water when I test drove, no white smoke or milky residue. I drove it home with the engine running for about an hour under stop start city traffic and me watching the temps and lamps like a hawk, and it drove beautifully (for a Defender).

On seeing the facebook warning I popped the bonnet and checked again for residue, and this time I found some in the filler cap.

I'm ok with repairs (though I've never done a head before) and I'm happy to give it a crack. I'm not, however, a trained mechanic. I don't have equipment for a leakdown test either. So advice: get her flatbedded to a landy place to have her seen to, or give it a shot?

[JDNSW]

I'm afraid that the answer depends entirely on your ability and willingness to learn! And that is a bit hard to tell from here.

The Td5 engine is long lasting and robust - but while not prone to overheating, if overheated it will almost certainly damage the head, very likely requiring replacement (not that I am an expert on this engine). There is always the possibility that more major work than just the head may be required.

In the end it is up to you.

[TonyC]

So the anonymous Facebook user never got the see the car, but has diagnosed it with a blown head and a sump full of water!

What does the oil look like?
Is it at the correct level, or over full?

I'd start with draining the oil into a very clean container and have a good look at it.

TD5s do crack heads and can then leak diesel into the sump, leading to over full oil.

The standard temp gauge is "normalised" this means it won't move off normal until it vey hot, some say so hot it's to late.
A Nanocom diagnostic tool will let you a watch the actual temp. Their not cheap, but if you're keeping the car, it's a tool you'll need.

There a lots of people on here that are very knowledgeable about this motor.

All the best with it.

Tony

[ninchi]

Thanks both.

I am willing to learn and I bought this as a project, so basically unless it needs very specialist and expensive tools, I'm happy to do it. I will get a Nanocom as I've heard too many people say it's essential.

The oil looks clean, slightly overfull. Nothing like the chocolate milk I've seen in videos. This is after driving it home in city traffic for an hour yesterday. There was a slight bit of gunk under the filler cap when I got it home - I wiped it away without thinking before I could get a pic. The water overflow tank was also empty once cooled down. I've refilled this.

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No white smoke though there is a weird whistle coming from somewhere near the back while running. Didn't get a chance to track that down yet as I don't want to start her up until I'm more confident about this possible oil/coolant problem.

I have the roadworthy guy coming tomorrow so I'll drain the sump after he's been and see what we see. I guess that will answer the doubt raised by Anonymous :)

I have heard the oil cooler can corrode through on TD5s and cause water in the oil as well.

On another topic, I believe this is a breather filter to prevent dust ingestion to the oil during deceleration? There's a fair bit of red dust in the car so I imagine that might be the reason for the install. The filter looks caked and there seems to be a solid plug of material in the inlet.

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[ninchi]

Almost forgot - it also has an Engine Watchdog which didn't show over 85 on the drive home.

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[TonyC]

The engine watchdog should give you an accurate temp reading, 85 is certainly in the ball park, I don't know what the thermostat temp is for a TD5.
Does the engine watchdog do low coolant as well?

The dip stick and oil cap photos look OK to me.

The loss of coolant is a concern.

No idea what that filter setup is about, is it a remote oil filter? If so I can't see any reason for the little filter in the top. Where do the hoses go?

Tony

[ninchi]

I believe the watchdog bolts to solid metal and has 2 sensors, ostensibly for engine block and transmission but you can use them wherever. I'm not sure where they're actually mounted yet, it's on the list to figure out :)

The breather filter is here, sitting across what is usually just a single breather hose. I couldn't see a brand or model on it, so not sure exactly what the idea was. The breather hose only rates a very short mention about inspection in the workshop manual.

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However from what I've been able to determine, the idea is that the normal hose will allow (filtered) air to be sucked into the crankcase during engine braking. If driving in fine particulate dust, this may result in some particles making it through to the crankcase. I'm speculating based on the red dust in the battery box that the previous owner was trying to protect the crankcase on an outback trip.

[oldyella 76]

There was a DD 5 head for sale on the facebook market place recently, not sure if it still there nor the condition.
Lindsay.

[Slunnie]

If you replace the head, only get an AMC head. Its the permanent fix. 2nd hand factory heads will not be too far from a repeated result - I've walked that path before. The AMC heads are about $2500 direct from Turners in the UK, plus the other minor parts you will need.

[Discofender]

I wouldn't place too much faith in the anonymous FB post, sounds like a case of sour grapes. Let it sit overnight and drain the oil you'll soon see any coolant drain out before the oil.

However, with any new to you Td5 with few kms on it (esp a 10p) there are a number things to do as routine service to ensure you can trust it to give you faithful service.

I bought my 3rd one (2nd D2a) back in April and am still working my way through my to do list.

I would add ditching the cheap looking catch can/breather setup to that list and get a provent......


Cheers Discofenderhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240802/398c857cb7f9ec2a02f50ed082126e2f.jpg

[ninchi]

I wouldn't place too much faith in the anonymous FB post, sounds like a case of sour grapes.

Yep that was my thought too, but I guess I'd rather err on the cautious side. I lost my first car (a '74 corolla) to an oil problem and keen to not repeat :) Draining oil come the morning.


I would add ditching the cheap looking catch can/breather setup to that list and get a provent......

Thanks. It's solid aluminium but I guess that doesn't say anything about the quality. I've seen a range of prices from $100 to $500 for the ProVent, what should I expect to pay?

Incidentally I popped the breather hose off the rocker cover to replace a broken hose clamp and spied this delightful gunk inside. Feel like I should pull a rag on a string through there like my old SLR barrel :)

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[Discofender]

"Thanks. It's solid aluminium but I guess that doesn't say anything about the quality. I've seen a range of prices from $100 to $500 for the ProVent, what should I expect to pay?"

I've purchased two Provents for Td5s from Western Filters, Sydney as you can buy each component seperately much cheaper than any kits......

[ninchi]

I dropped the oil out of the sump and saw no trace of water. The oil looks freshly changed.

That said, it did have very low coolant on delivery so I'll keep a close eye on that and check the oil for signs of water regularly.

[V8Ian]

Did the oil smell at all like diesel?

[ninchi]

Did the oil smell at all like diesel?

Not at all. It smelled pretty much like the new 5W40 I put in afterwards.

Here's a video of it coming out of the sump, and a photo of it afterward.

Full Bush Oz | If you tighten sump plugs with an impact wrench I hope you bang your shin on every towbar | Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/p/C-MSdOpvHcr/)

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[V8Ian]

If there's no water or fuel in the oil, chances are the head's okay. If the sump plug was overtightened, the last bloke there, may not have used a new copper washer, that's pretty important on these sumps.

[JDNSW]

If you are not familiar with this engine, it is worth pointing out that they have a very good filter system, so the oil tends to look like new for quite a while - unlike traditional diesels!

[AK83]

Also that other 'plug' which seems confusing if there is a plug there or not, is the wading plug.

You're supposed to plug it with a brass plug that is supplied with the car, when you cross deep water.

Don't leave one in there(if you have yours in the car and decide to use it). rear of engine/flywheel/clutch area can fill with oil/water/stuff and cause problems.

[ninchi]

Also that other 'plug' which seems confusing if there is a plug there or not, is the wading plug.

AAAHHHHH thank you. I was worried about that. Guess I should read the owner's manual as well as the workshop manual :)

[Discofender]

When I dropped the fluids in my 'new' Td5 certainly found some interesting things, two washers and thread tape on the sump plug, black brake fluid, and blocked breathers.

Glad there was no sign of water or diesel, injectors washers and seals should be on the list anyway while your doing the injector loom.....

I believe a tuned Td5 is the best Defender engine as long as properly (read meticulously) maintained.

Discofenderhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240804/317c7c40e29ff5f116f686a6b7608f0c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240804/449ffe7e9b2a78f8d18edfd7c0c16521.jpg

[ninchi]

OK so I might have a lead on the "blown head" issue. The vehicle had a service sticker from a local LR shop, so I called them and asked if they had any recent inspection reports for it. A previous inspection back in May recommended a head gasket replacement due to water in oil as well as identifying some suspension issues. Pretty sure I can tackle the head gasket so away we go.

[V8Ian]

If you attack the head gasket yourself, do not have the head machined.
I believe some have done so and removed all the hardening. There are blokes on here, more knowledgeable than me, who may be able to advise the tolerances.

[ninchi]

I received the last inspection report:

- cylinder head overhaul and new gasket required (cooling system pressure test lowered coolant and raised oil levels)
- driver's side rear wheel bearing loose
- right front hub swivel seal leaking
- both end track rod boots split
- brake caliper pistons rusted, need rebuild with stainless steel pistons

I feel like this is all doable in the garage?

[JDNSW]

Depending on your skill set and tools (or willingness to upskill and buy tools as needed), yes.

[Discofender]

All doable, with plenty of tutorial videos on YouTube from the likes of Trailfitters Toolbox to add to what's in the workshop manual. You also have the collective experience of AULRO team/database. This has certainly helped me a lot.

2nd the advice on machining heads if it's doubtful replace with AMC and don't look back.

Cheers Discofender

[ninchi]

All doable

Appreciate the advice all.

@Discofender I received my ProVent 200 today, do you have a pic of how you routed the hosing to avoid the turbo, and which hoses did you use? I believe the original breather is a "4 ply oil resistant flouro lined silicone", I've been trawling parts sites for a general hose of that description and something like this (https://www.deelat.com.au/ducting-and-fans/ducting/flexible-silicone-hose'diameter-mm=25&length-cm=400) or this (https://spareco.com.au/index.php/product/straight-oil-resistant-fluorosilicone-turbo-oil-drain-hose-4-ply-oil-series-iron-oxide-red/) are the closest I could find.

Also did you remove the depression control valve or leave in place?

[Discofender]

Hi Ninchi,

I used this hose kit:
Universal Oil Resistant Hose Kit for ProVent 200 2x1.5m 90 Degree Ends 25mm / 19m (https://www.westernfilters.net.au/universal-oil-resistant-hose-kit-for-provent-200-2x1-5m-90-degree-ends-25mm-19mm/)

It has 90 degree bends on each end but was just a bit long at 1.5m, comes with joiners so I shortened it up.

To mount it to the firewall I used a piece of alloy box section screwed to the inertia switch and the alarm sounder.

This kept the hoses well clear of the turbo as you can see I don't run the heat shield.

Cheers Discofenderhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240813/c43405da0b151034aad609631d330727.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240813/daa29c1eadb53c7884ee2da58621e898.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240813/f614e9c0dd857d6f81f597e7cc42c24a.jpg

[ninchi]

Very nice. I wish I'd seen that when I ordered the catch can from WF, I had a thought in my mind to reuse the existing hoses. Cheers

[Discofender]

Standard hoses are 19mm and the ports on the Provent are 25mm hence they sell this hose and others with different ends. Otherwise I believe there are adapters to reduce the provent ports to 19mm, then you can use standard oil resistant 3/4" hose which you can buy by the metre.

[Discofender]

Just realised your post was in the Defender section, the Disco install is recent, but I used the same hose on my install in the Defner. Its just routed differently and didn't need the 90 degree turns on the ends. Used angled alloy to make a bracket that bolted to the inner wing to mount it.

Cheers Discofenderhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240814/7209c89dfb663711318b8a6e65b75ee6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240814/4d0b4eeceddfca8ceeaf2fe95c71ce42.jpg

[ninchi]

Cheers!

Well I guess this answers the question if it had coolant mixing with oil.

190987

[Discofender]

Hope the head gasket fix goes smoothly.

[ninchi]

OK so a complication. When removing the leads from the glow plugs, two of the lead head plastic/rubber guards disintegrated.

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Any thoughts on this? My options seem to be:

* wrap them in electrical tape/heatshrink and hope for the best
* find a wrecked harness, cut the leads off and solder a couple from the wrecked harness
* replace the whole harness ($1,000+)

Any thoughts?

[AK83]

I'd do the heatshrink repair on them to begin with.
Get some good heatshrink tho, it comes in varying thickness.. and maybe a couple of layers.
At the least it will get them going.

I have seen 'repair kits' but IIRC they are expensive for what you get.

[ninchi]

I have seen 'repair kits'

I see what you mean

4x4 Outdoor Tuning :: Glow plug leads repair kit for Land Rover Defender TD5 and Puma TD4 2.4L (https://www.4x4outdoortuning.com.au/glow-plug-leads-repair-kit-for-land-rover-defender-td5-and-puma-td4-2-4l.html)

Multiple layers of heatshrink seems like the go.

[ninchi]

Alright the head's off. A job of work, but not as bad as I feared.

Problems so far:

- Shattered glow plug sockets. The guys at the local shop said they heatshrink them rather than bother replacing, and their work is well respected so.

- Broke an exhaust manifold bolt inside the head. Apparently this is common, so it's off to get some left handed drill bits and an easy-out kit today.

There were no obvious signs on the gasket where the coolant to oil leak might be occurring, which was disappointing. It was delaminated at the #5 (rearmost) cylinder, but that may have happened during removal. Plastic dowels, so a good chance this is the first time the head's been off since 2001.

Q: it feels fairly likely that retorquing the exhaust manifold on may get more snaps, so I'm tempted to double-nut out all the studs and put new ones in. Thoughts? Of course that may result in more breakages so *sigh*

Q: Also does this look normal for glowplugs? I'm tempted to replace them as well but also balancing against the risk of damage during removal.

191040

[Discofender]

Halfway there.... I have had to remove a number of broken manifold studs, left handed drill bits have worked everytime. Replace with wurth studs, spacers and nuts. Plane the manifold, unless you're 100% there's no warp.

I just used heat resistant spilt cable sheath on the glowplug plugs, once the exposed plug was clipped onto the glowplug I just slide the sheath up the wire so it was down over the plug. One day, I might order Pace Automotive's good looking replacement insulated glowplug loom.

You could test the glowplugs using some jumper cables while still in the head to see if they all still work, even though in Qld you can get away not all of them properly.

Discofender
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[Tins]

Might be a little late, and this may be overkill for you, but this stuff (https://www.amazon.com.au/Wirefy-Heat-Shrink-Tubing-Adhesive/dp/B09NWD37DQ/ref=pd_ybh_a_d_sccl_32/357-9294437-3824803) is the go for heat shrink in critical applications like the glow plugs. The adhesive makes a big difference, and it shrinks way better than the cheap stuff.

[ninchi]

this stuff (https://www.amazon.com.au/Wirefy-Heat-Shrink-Tubing-Adhesive/dp/B09NWD37DQ/ref=pd_ybh_a_d_sccl_32/357-9294437-3824803) is the go for heat shrink in critical applications like the glow plugs.

Brilliant ta. I have the multipack (https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B089D82FLG'smid=A3P6X2GIMA114Z&ref_=chk_typ_imgToDp&th=1) on the way.

[discorevy]

- Broke an exhaust manifold bolt inside the head. Apparently this is common, so it's off to get some left handed drill bits and an easy-out kit today.

There were no obvious signs on the gasket where the coolant to oil leak might be occurring, which was disappointing. It was delaminated at the #5 (rearmost) cylinder, but that may have happened during removal. Plastic dowels, so a good chance this is the first time the head's been off since 2001.

Q: it feels fairly likely that retorquing the exhaust manifold on may get more snaps, so I'm tempted to double-nut out all the studs and put new ones in. Thoughts? Of course that may result in more breakages so *sigh*

Q: Also does this look normal for glowplugs? I'm tempted to replace them as well but also balancing against the risk of damage during removal.



Hi ninchi

Replace all the manifold studs, it's easier to extract broken ones while the head is off, but get the head faced ( up to 0.25mm is ok ) and pressure tested First, that way, if it has failed internally ( water in oil is very unusual for a TD5 when the head gaskets fail ) you wouldn't have wasted your time.

You will need to remove the glow plugs anyway, I've never had one seize in a TD5, unlike some CRD's.

You can test the resistance on the glow plugs, but after 20 odd years you might as well replace.

Unless it has been done recently, I'd be testing /replacing the oil cooler, replace the dowty washers as well.

[ninchi]

Thanks for the response. I got a new set of studs from M.R. yesterday so I'll replace the lot.


Unless it has been done recently, I'd be testing /replacing the oil cooler

The oil cooler was inspected at a LR place back in April, about 300km ago, and new gaskets fitted as part of diagnosing the coolant to oil problem. It was they who recommended a recondition and new head gasket.

Pressure testing will require full disassembly including valves right?

[discorevy]

Thanks for the response. I got a new set of studs from M.R. yesterday so I'll replace the lot.



The oil cooler was inspected at a LR place back in April, about 300km ago, and new gaskets fitted as part of diagnosing the coolant to oil problem. It was they who recommended a recondition and new head gasket.

Pressure testing will require full disassembly including valves right?

Not necessarily, if the pressure drops on the test, then the port(s) that were leaking could have the valve removed to see if it was worth repairing.

However, usually worth replacing the head at that point.

[ninchi]

Not necessarily,

Right, just trying to figure out how far I need to strip it down.

The exhaust manifold is off, I'll double nut the rest of the studs, I presume the inlet manifold needs to come off, and then in order to get the injectors out I need to unbolt the cam housing from the top of the head so I can rotate the rocker to get them out.

That really only leaves the fuel controller and the valves still assembled, and unless it's a hugely expensive or risky, at that point I may as well pull them out, then I can pen dye the head to see if it's even worth sending to pressure test?

Then of course the alternative to save all that faffing about is just clean it up, whack the new gasket on and maybe that fixes it, or at least it's no worse than it was and I can drive it out to the garage for them to do the new head? I'm potentially out a gasket and bolts if it needs a new head, but in the grand scheme of the new head it's not huge extra.

[shack]

It's a lot of work and money to change a head gasket on a TD5 just to "see if it fixes it".

That's my opinion anyway.

[Tins]

It's a lot of work and money to change a head gasket on a TD5 just to "see if it fixes it".

That's my opinion anyway.

Have to agree. Don't want to do it twice.

[ninchi]

Update on the head. Started her up today, she's purring like a kitten and the cooling system is staying full and pressurised for at least 30 min after shutdown from warm. Time will tell, but signs are positive.

In the end I didn't get it skimmed as there was no warping, and I had clear indication of gasket delamination at the front left corner, between the oil feed and a coolant port as well as a snapped plastic dowel at the front left.

I'll post some lessons learned later for the next person who takes this on.