Anyone seen a crankshaft come out this far??

[marshprince]

Took off the harmonic balancer for replacing and then decided to turn on engine and drive it 5m in to garage... engine shuts off and the crank shaft has gone and walked itself right out like this! I understand that was a bad idea, but this seems pretty extreme!

Got a 2nd hand engine on the way, as clearly this one has had it. But just wondering if anyone has seen this before and can help diagnose, just worried ive done something wrong.

- 300tdi engine with 450k (last owner told me it was refurb engine which would place it at around 150k, but thinking it wasnt refurbed perhaps..).
- there is a zeus timing gear, some have suggested this may have put excess strain on crank bearings... ill be getting rid of this either way.
- i put a new clutch in a few months ago.

any insights appreciated!
191417

[TonyC]

Hi,

That doesn't look like the crank has moved, just the timing gear.

There is nothing holding it on other than the harmonic balancer, it's sandwiched between the balancer and a shoulder on the crank.

From the photo your crank seal has also come out.

If the gear has come off the keyway or disengaged from the next gear, you'll need to ensure the timing is correct, also that both the drive gear and its mate are undamaged.

Any particular reason for getting rid of the timing gear kit?
I know a couple of people with high mileage on them, that said there were some disaster stories around back in the day, I always got the feeling it was due to who installed it.

Tony

[Tins]

Imo here's more to this than meets the eye. The HB plays no role in locating the crankshaft, that's the job of the main bearings. The flywheel, the webs, also would prevent movement. Looks to me like the crank is broken, but I haven't heard of a 300 TDi doing this.

191418

[p38arover]

I think TonyC is right, the gear has walked forward. The angular cut on the teeth could do that depending on direction of rotation of the crank.

[Tins]

Actually, now I see the pic on a bigger screen I agree with Tony and Ron. The HB is the only thing holding that gear on.

[marshprince]

Wohhh how did i not see that. I just assumed the gear on crank was part of crank... but then how would you get crank on and off timing case 😆

Oh boy. Well the car didnt even move, so hopefully its in time still. The gears look undamaged. If timing is out, where to from here? have to pull engine open to assess damage?

Regarding the Zeus, a number of people really dont like them.. and its got in my head now that it will be the end of my engine! Apart from that its super loud.

Cheers



Hi,

That doesn't look like the crank has moved, just the timing gear.

There is nothing holding it on other than the harmonic balancer, it's sandwiched between the balancer and a shoulder on the crank.

From the photo your crank seal has also come out.

If the gear has come off the keyway or disengaged from the next gear, you'll need to ensure the timing is correct, also that both the drive gear and its mate are undamaged.

Any particular reason for getting rid of the timing gear kit?
I know a couple of people with high mileage on them, that said there were some disaster stories around back in the day, I always got the feeling it was due to who installed it.

Tony

[Graeme]

The timing will be out because the crankshaft turned more than the timing gear in order to wind out the gear on the crankshaft.

[TonyC]

Wohhh how did i not see that. I just assumed the gear on crank was part of crank... but then how would you get crank on and off timing case 😆

Oh boy. Well the car didnt even move, so hopefully its in time still. The gears look undamaged. If timing is out, where to from here? have to pull engine open to assess damage?

Regarding the Zeus, a number of people really dont like them.. and its got in my head now that it will be the end of my engine! Apart from that its super loud.

Cheers

Here's one i did last week🤪

When doing a belt. You fit two timing pins before removing the old timing belt.
One goes in the drain hole in the bottom of the bellhousing, this goes into a slot in the flywheel, this locks the motor at TDC on cylinder 1.
The other goes in the fuel pump to lock it.
Then there is a mark on the camshaft pulley that aligns with a thing in the housing.

In the attached photo the bottom arrow is pointing to the harmonic balancer keyway, this needs to be pointing up.
The big pulley top left, the arrow is pointing to were the locking pin goes in the fuel pump.
The big pulley, top right, the arrow is pointing to the mark and what it aligns with. It looks like it's out due to the angle of the photo, but it's aligned.

These are the timing pins I have, they are not genuine Land Rover ones, I can't remember were I got them, but one of the Land Rover suppliers.
The black one goes in the bellhousing, the silver one goes in the fuel pump, yes it is a cut off bolt.

Can you post a photo of the whole Zeus gear set? I assume there will be timing mark on the camshaft gear, similar to what is on the belt pulley.

It sounds like you don't have a workshop manual, you can buy an electronic copy for not much in the shop section at the top of any AULRO forum page.

Hope this helps

Tony191444191445

[marshprince]

Here's one i did last week🤪

When doing a belt. You fit two timing pins before removing the old timing belt.
One goes in the drain hole in the bottom of the bellhousing, this goes into a slot in the flywheel, this locks the motor at TDC on cylinder 1.
The other goes in the fuel pump to lock it.
Then there is a mark on the camshaft pulley that aligns with a thing in the housing.

In the attached photo the bottom arrow is pointing to the harmonic balancer keyway, this needs to be pointing up.
The big pulley top left, the arrow is pointing to were the locking pin goes in the fuel pump.
The big pulley, top right, the arrow is pointing to the mark and what it aligns with. It looks like it's out due to the angle of the photo, but it's aligned.

These are the timing pins I have, they are not genuine Land Rover ones, I can't remember were I got them, but one of the Land Rover suppliers.
The black one goes in the bellhousing, the silver one goes in the fuel pump, yes it is a cut off bolt.

Can you post a photo of the whole Zeus gear set? I assume there will be timing mark on the camshaft gear, similar to what is on the belt pulley.

It sounds like you don't have a workshop manual, you can buy an electronic copy for not much in the shop section at the top of any AULRO forum page.

Hope this helps

Tony191444191445


I really appreciate your help so far as im up in the Kimberley, WA, and mechanics out here dont like land rovers (except for the old station families whove grown up with them, but theyre hard to lock down! Unbelievable bush mechanics when Im lucky enough to run in to them 😁).

And yes.. timing has definitely gone out, looking closely at teeth of crankshaft gear its fully come away.. but wouldve only been for a second or two. Ive gone ahead with a 2nd hand engine from a trusted source for a great price, as Im keen to move on from noisey Zeus gear. But I would still like to assess the condition of this engine.

I have this manual, does the shop here have a different one?
191460

I have to buy some timing tools and a new harmonic balancer (and the appropriate timing case gasket as it looks like may be different from normal 😭). Do i put all the timing tools in place before turning engine to line up timing marks? Doesnt say in manual when to turn engine. It also looks like my timing marks are a bit different, but will still require lining up.. so shouldnt be hard maths.

Once ive re-alligned etc, do you think its a bit beyond me to assess where the damage may be? Should i just go for gold and turn the engine on when the harmonic balancer is back on?

Photos of Zeus fella here:

191461191462

Cheers

Sam

[TonyC]

I really appreciate your help so far as im up in the Kimberley, WA, and mechanics out here dont like land rovers (except for the old station families whove grown up with them, but theyre hard to lock down! Unbelievable bush mechanics when Im lucky enough to run in to them 😁).

And yes.. timing has definitely gone out, looking closely at teeth of crankshaft gear its fully come away.. but wouldve only been for a second or two. Ive gone ahead with a 2nd hand engine from a trusted source for a great price, as Im keen to move on from noisey Zeus gear. But I would still like to assess the condition of this engine.

I have this manual, does the shop here have a different one?
191460

I have to buy some timing tools and a new harmonic balancer (and the appropriate timing case gasket as it looks like may be different from normal 😭). Do i put all the timing tools in place before turning engine to line up timing marks? Doesnt say in manual when to turn engine. It also looks like my timing marks are a bit different, but will still require lining up.. so shouldnt be hard maths.

Once ive re-alligned etc, do you think its a bit beyond me to assess where the damage may be? Should i just go for gold and turn the engine on when the harmonic balancer is back on?

Photos of Zeus fella here:

191461191462

Cheers

Sam

Hi Sam,

That's the manual I have, I don't know if it's the one for sale in the "shop" here.

With the timing pins I have, you have to get the engine in just the right spot before inserting them.

From your photos, the crank is half a turn out, the keyway for both the cam drive and the harmonic balancer should be at the top.
The fuel pump is about a quarter of a turn out, the hole for the pin should be about 10-11 o'clock, yours is about 2 o'clock.

Keep in mind the the crank rotates twice for every rotation of the cam and pump.

If you remove the rocker cover, you will, be able to see if the cam is on TDC for number one.
The number one valves will be closed and the rockers will have a small amount of movement, see setting the valve clearance, the first part of the engine section of the manual.
While this will be close, it won't necessarily be correct. I don't know how you set the cam from scratch, it's not in the Defender manual, I assume there is a 300Tdi rebuild manual with more detail.

The 300Tdi is an "interface " motor that is the valves can hit the pistons, this is what happens if you break a cam belt, when this happens you get bent push rods and broken rockers.
So NO DON'T START IT until your happy every thing is timed correctly, also be careful turning it over by hand.
You should check all the push rods and rockers are OK after what has happened.

Here a link to the people who sold the kit in Australia.
YiCaN supply Zeus Timing Gears-eliminates timing belt problems in Land Rover Discovery and Defender. Website:www.yican.com.au (http://yican.com.au/)
In the menu on the left hand side there is a link to an article fitting the kit.
"LRE Article 06/02"
Is there anything on the cam gear that could be a timing mark? From the article I think the red paint marks are about lining up the gears, rather than timing marks.

Tony

[Graeme]

Turn both shafts very gently by hand so that you can stop at the slightest resistance to then turn the other shaft until they're aligned and once assembled, turn over by hand twice to be sure nothing locks.
Interference fit - they interfere with each other.

[marshprince]

Hi Sam,

That's the manual I have, I don't know if it's the one for sale in the "shop" here.

With the timing pins I have, you have to get the engine in just the right spot before inserting them.

From your photos, the crank is half a turn out, the keyway for both the cam drive and the harmonic balancer should be at the top.
The fuel pump is about a quarter of a turn out, the hole for the pin should be about 10-11 o'clock, yours is about 2 o'clock.

Keep in mind the the crank rotates twice for every rotation of the cam and pump.

If you remove the rocker cover, you will, be able to see if the cam is on TDC for number one.
The number one valves will be closed and the rockers will have a small amount of movement, see setting the valve clearance, the first part of the engine section of the manual.
While this will be close, it won't necessarily be correct. I don't know how you set the cam from scratch, it's not in the Defender manual, I assume there is a 300Tdi rebuild manual with more detail.

The 300Tdi is an "interface " motor that is the valves can hit the pistons, this is what happens if you break a cam belt, when this happens you get bent push rods and broken rockers.
So NO DON'T START IT until your happy every thing is timed correctly, also be careful turning it over by hand.
You should check all the push rods and rockers are OK after what has happened.

Here a link to the people who sold the kit in Australia.
YiCaN supply Zeus Timing Gears-eliminates timing belt problems in Land Rover Discovery and Defender. Website:www.yican.com.au (http://yican.com.au/)
In the menu on the left hand side there is a link to an article fitting the kit.
"LRE Article 06/02"
Is there anything on the cam gear that could be a timing mark? From the article I think the red paint marks are about lining up the gears, rather than timing marks.

Tony

Ok cool, Im replacing the rocker cover gasket anyway, so ill be able to have a look inside. Ill do some research on what kindve damage to look for and ill also see if the number one valves are closed etc. Does the valves reset to this position whenever its turned off normally?

Ill have a look for any other marks on gears tomorrow!

[TonyC]

Thinking about this.

The pump and cam are still timed together, it's only the crank gear that's out.

Once the pump pin is in, the cam will be correct.

The difficulty will be turning the crank without knowing were the valves are.

With the pistons at half way, IE the crank keyway at 9 o'clock, you should be able to turn the cam, and fit the timing pin.

Then rotate the crank till the keyway is at 12 o'clock, and fit its pin.

Check the number one valves are closed and rockers loose.

Then try and get the gear back on.

As Grame said, go carefully.

The motor won't stop with number one on TDC, it will stop with any piston coming onto compression.

As for damage from valves and pistons meeting, see this photo Jay Tee posted.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-1-a/300501-temperature-gauge-issue-300tdi-2.html#post3234845

If anyone can see a problem with this, please jump in!

Tony

[AK83]

.....
Then rotate the crank till the keyway is at 12 o'clock, and fit its pin.

Check the number one valves are closed and rockers loose.

Then try and get the gear back on.

.....

I'm imagining that the crank gear isn't going to go on so easily.
helical gears, and not being straight cut need to rotate as it's slid into place, and keyway will fight very hard

[TonyC]

I'm imagining that the crank gear isn't going to go on so easily.
helical gears, and not being straight cut need to rotate as it's slid into place, and keyway will fight very hard

I agree, it's going to be tricky to get the crank gear back on. And something will have to rotate for it to happen.

Step one has to be get the pump, cam and crank all in the right spot. Hopefully then Sam can work out which teeth on the crank and intermediate gear need to mesh.

The Land Rover Enthusiast article I linked shows the crank gear going on first.

It also says and shows the two paint marks in the bottom intermediate gear lining up with the paint marks on the crank and cam gears.
Those paint marks are still visible in Sam's photos.

Note that the motor in the article isn't a 300Tdi.

As said please jump in if any one has any ideas, or if you think I've missed the mark completely.

Tony

[Graeme]

When the shafts are where they should be when aligned, Iwould estimate how much the crankshaft will turn as its gear is slid back into place by following the start and end of a tooth, then turn the crankshaft by that much before engaging the crankshaft gear. Keep an eye on how the alignment is proceeding as the gear is pressed back then back-track to reset the crankshaft for another attempt, resetting the crankshaft left or right by 1 or more teeth.

[shack]

To my way of thinking, you don't know what damage has occurred - if any.


I would be popping the rocker cover off, coaching for any visible damage which will be either bent pushrods, broken rockers, or stripped or broken bolts holding the rocker shaft down, or any combination of the above.

Valves don't usually bend on these, and piston don't usually hole.

The bent pushrods are the hardest to diagnose and would need pulling out.

If everything checks out ok, I would leave the rocker shaft off, retime anything, then reassemble.

If you do it this way, as long as you haven't already damaged anything, no damage will occur as all the valves will be shut.