Gearbox Cooling - Defender

[Xtreme]

Has anyone been successful in getting the gearbox of their Defender Xtreme to run a bit cooler and not generate so much heat around the seat box. Is there an oil that runs cooler or is ducting some air onto it the answer. I'd be interested in any suggestions.
I have had this problem in my previous 200Tdi Defender and now in the Xtreme and with summer rapidly approaching I figure it's about time I did something about it.

Roger

[Ruslan]

I noticed heating when I was using CDL and low range for a long time continuously. After changing driving style and getting know car limitations I apply CDL only in real critical situations.

Ruslan

[D110V8D]

Does it not have an oil cooler on it?

R380 has provision for fitment of an oil cooler. I know the 130's have them fitted.

[Slunnie]

I'm pretty sure the D2 R380 also runs a cooler.

Are you sure its not engine/exhaust heat?

[Blknight.aus]

Ive seen a somewhat dodgy improvisation done on a series transmission..

a pair of tpieces were plumbed onto the filler and drain plugs one side was fitted with bungs and the other side went to an oil cooler plumbed under the tray at the rear above the popshaft.

Depending on how much cooling you want it might be enough

[JamesH]

I've had a similar symptom (hot under seat boxes esp drivers side) in the past on long runs but not always. A mechanically minded mate got underneath and felt around and decided that it was like the handbrake was rubbing. We tested the brake, it was working, we released it, it rolled easy but it was very hot there. We even got under his Defender that had been following and his was cool as a cucumber.

Being as we were, out in bloody whoop whoop there was not much to do but keep going and keep an eye on it. Anyway the problem disappeared the next day. On this years trip it re-occurred, once. I though hmm here it is again. Next day gone.

Now it MAY have been because on the gravel shaly track I had diff lock on and my mate didn't but I don't think I did have diff lock on at that time. Next time it happens and I have the CDL on I'll take it off.

[rick130]

Does it not have an oil cooler on it?

R380 has provision for fitment of an oil cooler. I know the 130's have them fitted.

Ummm, not all 130's have them fitted. Later model Tdi 130's don't, but all the Td5's I've looked at seem to have them.

[D110V8D]

Whoops!

As usual my technical knowledge sucks ass!:D

[JDNSW]

I'd be surprised if the gearbox was the source of the heat, although it will generate a bit, but it would be pretty minimal compared to the heat from the engine and exhaust , all of which flows back under the vehicle pushed by both fan and forward motion. Of course, a dragging handbrake will make a bit of an impression as well. I cannot see how diff lock in or out would make much difference, and if it did, the locked diff would generate less heat as there is a set of gears not working under load.
John

[Xtreme]

Thanks for all the comments guys but it seems that I need to clarify a few points.

The heating problem is continuous but varies depending on the ambient temperature.
It is most noticable on the seat box in the vicinity of the gearbox.
It occurs with and without CDL engaged but is most noticible (and annoying) when on the blacktop.
The handbrake is not binding.
The Xtreme does have an oil cooler.
It occurred in exactly the same way on my 200 Tdi Defender.So it seems from your comments that it is simply the heat from the exhaust pipe and motor. However I feel that this much heat cannot be good for the gear box, hence my desire to rectify the situation.

Maybe I just need to do more river crossings to cool the g'box!

Roger

[Graeme]

By way of comparison, the xfer case high temperature warning switch in the V8 Discos comes on at 145 deg C, yet the TD5 Discos don't have the switch.

[Bush65]

Some LT77's and R380's had oil coolers. The adaptor bolts to the left hand side of the gear case.

Most are simply a pipe that runs up to the front and back. The Wolf's have a larger cooler.

I fitted an adaptor from an LT77 to my R380 and installed an oil cooler up front.

The gearbox will love you if you fit an oil cooler, but I doubt you will benefit from much reduction in temp inside the cab.

[Bigbjorn]

Has anyone been successful in getting the gearbox of their Defender Xtreme to run a bit cooler and not generate so much heat around the seat box. Is there an oil that runs cooler or is ducting some air onto it the answer. I'd be interested in any suggestions.
I have had this problem in my previous 200Tdi Defender and now in the Xtreme and with summer rapidly approaching I figure it's about time I did something about it.

Roger

Use a telescopic shock absorber as an oil pump. Mount an extra shockie on an axle and use it as a piston pump. Install the top and bottom sections with some tubes and fittings through an oil radiator. I had two of these on my Monaro GTS 350 in 1970 to cool the Muncie and the diff. (370bhp at the rollers)
Perhaps, nowadays, oils, and electric pumps have improved and this type of system would be an easy hook-up.

[rick130]

Use a telescopic shock absorber as an oil pump. Mount an extra shockie on an axle and use it as a piston pump. Install the top and bottom sections with some tubes and fittings through an oil radiator. I had two of these on my Monaro GTS 350 in 1970 to cool the Muncie and the diff. (370bhp at the rollers)
Perhaps, nowadays, oils, and electric pumps have improved and this type of system would be an easy hook-up.

ahh, not needed Brian as the R380 has an internal pump, and TD5's have a t/stat housing/adapter and cooler (ok, it's only a pipe) as John has outlined above.

[JDNSW]

Thanks for all the comments guys but it seems that I need to clarify a few points.

The heating problem is continuous but varies depending on the ambient temperature.
It is most noticable on the seat box in the vicinity of the gearbox.
It occurs with and without CDL engaged but is most noticible (and annoying) when on the blacktop.
The handbrake is not binding.
The Xtreme does have an oil cooler.
It occurred in exactly the same way on my 200 Tdi Defender.So it seems from your comments that it is simply the heat from the exhaust pipe and motor. However I feel that this much heat cannot be good for the gear box, hence my desire to rectify the situation.

Maybe I just need to do more river crossings to cool the g'box!

Roger

All the waste heat from the engine comes back under the vehicle - and as hot air rises it will concentrate at the highest point and concentrate there - in the centre of the seat box and the transmission tunnel. The heat will not damage the transmission until it gets hot enough to break down the oil or damage the seals, which is pretty hot. Maybe what you need is better insulation on the seat box and transmission tunnel.
John

[rick130]

<snip> Maybe what you need is better insulation on the seat box and transmission tunnel.
John

which is exactly what a few of the Seth Efricans have done on a couple of other forums (fora ??)

[Bigbjorn]

ahh, not needed Brian as the R380 has an internal pump, and TD5's have a t/stat housing/adapter and cooler (ok, it's only a pipe) as John has outlined above.

OK. Not aware these things now have pumps and coolers. If the problem is from under bonnet hot air, why not have a look at a White Road Boss from circa 1979-80. These had ducts in the fibreglass bonnet to take air from intakes alongside the radiator grille and directed a flow of air down the firewall to keep the drivers thongs from melting. The Cat and Cummins engines used, designed for LH drive countries, had all the hot bits on the RH side. We were once shown a thong that had a hex melted into it from a bolt head that held the engine cover to the floor inside the cab. The fix worked. So maybe some flexible ducting from the front of the car to the top of the transmission may give relief.

[Xtreme]

Thanks to everyone for your comments/suggestions.

I think that the way to go is to duct from cool air from the front of the vehicle, incorporating some form of valve in the ducting so I can enjoy the free heating during winter. Insulation around seat box would be an option but fiddley to get right and it doesn't address the source of the problem as well as ducting. Also, I have a fair length of 45mm dia aluminium tubing stashed under the house that will do the job nicely.

Thanks again for everyones input.

Roger

[alittlebitconcerned]

Thread not dead!

I'm going to try plumbing some hose for cool air to the top of the transmission tunnel as suggested. Out of interest I'll do a before and after measure of the temps and if anyones interested I'll post it.

Has anyone done this or have any tips or tricks?

Any suggestions where the best place to mount the inlet would be?

[one_iota]

I've been thinking likewise Matt.......run a metre or so of 75 mm flexible rubber duct with the front of the duct above the crossmember under the transmission against the chassis rail on the passenger side then running back and into the void between the seat boxes. The idea being that the duct would pick up enough clean air to blow into the void and remove the air pocket (if that is what is causing the problem).

I have some 90 upvc pipe and fittings but was a little concerned that if it came off at speed it might do some damage either to the Defender or those following.

If that works then a mandrel bent metal tube might provide a more robust and permanent solution.

Seeing that you are just down the road we should put our heads together on this one.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Mahn, great minds…

Good idea, and coffee's damn good on Marrickville road too. Am camping this weekend but the following is good if you're keen. :BigThumb:

I'm considering marine exhaust hose (the stuff with the internal wire). It's heat, oil, acid, alkali resistant, won't corrode or kink and can take a blow if you whack it. Challenge could be keeping it neatly out of the way though.

Might not be needed but I'm also thinking of making a ram type inlet to give the flow a boost. Could possibly use an off the shelf upvc pipe reduction fitting. If it works well I'm thinking of sending another hose to the rear and turning it up to bust up the vacuum behind the car to stop the dust coming in. That's another day though.

[one_iota]

Weekend following this sounds ideal.

I'll pm my contact number.

Erich (Bundalene) has a couple of suppliers of duct that he buys from so we can swap notes on that too.

Good camping....the rains are comin'.;)

[incisor]

wrapping the exhaust with header tape from the manifold to the rear of the transfer case makes one hell of a difference and makes them quieter as a bonus

done it to three of mine and it made a significant difference to all of them.

dont do it on a stainless steel exhaust tho...

[rick130]

wrapping the exhaust with header tape from the manifold to the rear of the transfer case makes one hell of a difference and makes them quieter as a bonus

done it to three of mine and it made a significant difference to all of them.

dont do it on a stainless steel exhaust tho...

Ditto, after Inc assured me my exhaust wouldn't spontaneously explode when wrapped :D

After about four years and probably close to 100,000km my exhaust is still fine and the temps inside the cab are much reduced.

As for noise, I'm not quite sure.
It is a Defender after all, and mine has muddies and a 3" exhaust with insufficient acoustic attenuation :angel:

[one_iota]

Yes indeed...the insulation route has merit.

Bundalene has also shown one way on his Puma Project:

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/6619/dscn1088r.jpg (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/dscn1088r.jpg/)



Matt and I will explore an alternative hypothesis (starting with a cup of java on Marrickville Rd).

If we fail then at least that line of inquiry will have been tested.

Watch this space.:)

[130man]

Hi all, the idea of wrapping the exhaust pipe seems good to me.I get lots of heat in the cabin despite extra insulation on the seat box and floors.No burns from the handbrake lever,though. Several questions occur.1-what is the header tape made from? 2_Is there a best direction to wrap it, I.E. front to rear or rear to front? 3_ Is the tape self adhesive,if not, what holds it in position? Thanks in advance, 130man.

[rick130]

Hi Ross.

The best type is a silica based thread, I used ThermoTec brand. I wouldn't use a glass type, the temp rating isn't high enough and it'll die a premature death.

There are several sizes, depending on the OD of the pipe.
I had a few rolls on the shelf left over from years ago (1.5" IIRC) for header pipes on the race car so used that on the 3" exhaust, but for a normal exhaust the wider type is preferred/easier to use.

I started at the engine/dump pipe end and use a large stainless worm drive clamp to hold it in place, (the wrap makers also have fancy, low profile stainless fasteners like a zip tie that you can get too) then wrap like wrapping bike handle bars and finished off the same.
I also sealed mine with a silicon based (high temp) paint, although from memory Inc didn't bother when we last spoke about it on here.
The stuff I used was natural off white/sort of golden, but you can get in black these days too.

I went all the way to the t/case on mine and it makes a huge difference in the temp coming through the tunnel.

[130man]

Hi Rick, thanks for those details.I may be able to pick up some tape on Tuesday when I am in town.Would Super Cheap or Repco be likely sources?I can see the benefits of carrying the taping back past the transmission,so I will do the same.This weekend I have been improving the air sealing around the transmission tunnel where I feel hot air has been getting in. Hope it all works as the recent 42 C heat was hard to take driving home from work in the afternoons.The air con was "inadequate" to the task.Cheers, Ross.

[rick130]

Someone that does go-faster stuff will stock it.

Surprisingly Bursons stock it when i last asked, but can't recall if there's a branch down your end of the valley.

Rocket Industries were the importers for Oz, might pay to get on their site and see who the retailers are

[scott oz]

I know an owner who cut holes in his alloy bull bar and ducted air through to the tunnel. He put in a little flap so he could block it if needed.

Curious why not use the insulation tape on SS exhaust

[130man]

Hi all, contacted Rocket Industries through their web site asking for stockists.Jason replied with the usual parts outlets, Supercheap, Auto-one etc. Tried Supercheap in Maitland but no stock.Will try the others tomorrow.I am also interested in why this product or technique shouldn't be used on Stainless pipe.Cheers, Ross.

[trailcutter]

Hi Ross.

The best type is a silica based thread, I used ThermoTec brand. I wouldn't use a glass type, the temp rating isn't high enough and it'll die a premature death.

There are several sizes, depending on the OD of the pipe.
I had a few rolls on the shelf left over from years ago (1.5" IIRC) for header pipes on the race car so used that on the 3" exhaust, but for a normal exhaust the wider type is preferred/easier to use.

I started at the engine/dump pipe end and use a large stainless worm drive clamp to hold it in place, (the wrap makers also have fancy, low profile stainless fasteners like a zip tie that you can get too) then wrap like wrapping bike handle bars and finished off the same.
I also sealed mine with a silicon based (high temp) paint, although from memory Inc didn't bother when we last spoke about it on here.
The stuff I used was natural off white/sort of golden, but you can get in black these days too.

I went all the way to the t/case on mine and it makes a huge difference in the temp coming through the tunnel.




am seriously looking at this option


has anyone been down this path ,,,,and had any issues long term

with water crossings and the associated temperature differentials,,,and thermal dynamic reactions ..within the relative sections of exhaust???

[rick130]

am seriously looking at this option


has anyone been down this path ,,,,and had any issues long term

with water crossings and the associated temperature differentials,,,and thermal dynamic reactions ..within the relative sections of exhaust???

Read my post above ;)

Over 100,000km and lots of water crossings, sometimes multiple crossings in a day during the working week.

[rick130]

[snip]

Curious why not use the insulation tape on SS exhaust



[snip]
I am also interested in why this product or technique shouldn't be used on Stainless pipe.Cheers, Ross.

Thermal fatigue cracking of the stainless.

I used to (wrongly) assume this would happen to mild steel too but Inc assured me otherwise, after having experience with it on big marine turbo diesels. ;)

[trailcutter]

Read my post above ;)

Over 100,000km and lots of water crossings, sometimes multiple crossings in a day during the working week.



cheers rick i thiught everyone had died.or fallen to sleep..:)

[scott oz]

Thermal fatigue cracking of the stainless.

I used to (wrongly) assume this would happen to mild steel too but Inc assured me otherwise, after having experience with it on big marine turbo diesels. ;)


While I'll check mine I thought that standard LR exhaust (TD5 110) were SS?

[130man]

Hi all, ordered up the thermotec tape yesterday.Should be in by Friday but I will pick it up next week.$99 for a 50 foot by 2 inch roll.[American product]. I saw, in the uses for this product, that people wrap headers and turbos too.Would this be beneficial or would it cause trouble if I wrapped the manifold? Could it over heat the Turbo? Could it cause warping of the manifold? I just had the manifold studs replaced and a second hand manifold installed because the original was too bent to machine!! My exhaust seems to be mild steel, not SS.Cheers, Ross.

[Boots]

G'day 130man,

I am very interested in what you find after wrapping the exhaust wrt heat in the cabin. I think that I will probably go down this route.

cheers

Boots

[lebanon]

I've been thinking likewise Matt.......run a metre or so of 75 mm flexible rubber duct with the front of the duct above the crossmember under the transmission against the chassis rail on the passenger side then running back and into the void between the seat boxes. The idea being that the duct would pick up enough clean air to blow into the void and remove the air pocket (if that is what is causing the problem).

I have some 90 upvc pipe and fittings but was a little concerned that if it came off at speed it might do some damage either to the Defender or those following.

If that works then a mandrel bent metal tube might provide a more robust and permanent solution.

Seeing that you are just down the road we should put our heads together on this one.

HI,

I have tried this option and the results were not fantastic because when you duct air from the front of the car you create a high pressure zone in the void between the seat box.
Having the interior of the 110 acting as a depression zone because of the pressure vents or open windows (all cars have pressure vents fitted somewhere on the body, the most obvious are the 1989 110 model. Pic attached)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6939/1989landroverdefenderpi.jpg
This will result in having the hot air flowing more rapidly from underneath the cabin to the inside of it.

For this year I will try to fabricate a fiberglass bonnet fitted with louvers that I hope will create a depression zone on top of the bonnet to suck out the heat from the engine bay, preventing it or reducing it from being stuck between the seat boxes.

[Allan]

Hi all, ordered up the thermotec tape yesterday.Should be in by Friday but I will pick it up next week.$99 for a 50 foot by 2 inch roll.[American product]. I saw, in the uses for this product, that people wrap headers and turbos too.Would this be beneficial or would it cause trouble if I wrapped the manifold? Could it over heat the Turbo? Could it cause warping of the manifold? I just had the manifold studs replaced and a second hand manifold installed because the original was too bent to machine!! My exhaust seems to be mild steel, not SS.Cheers, Ross.

When we fitted equal lenth pipes to my sons much modified Subaru STI we found these are thermo taped as standard. He has had no Turbo problems or warping with his and he drives it hard. Hope this helps.

Allan

[rick130]

[snip]
I saw, in the uses for this product, that people wrap headers and turbos too.Would this be beneficial or would it cause trouble if I wrapped the manifold? Could it over heat the Turbo? Could it cause warping of the manifold? I just had the manifold studs replaced and a second hand manifold installed because the original was too bent to machine!! My exhaust seems to be mild steel, not SS.Cheers, Ross.



When we fitted equal lenth pipes to my sons much modified Subaru STI we found these are thermo taped as standard. He has had no Turbo problems or warping with his and he drives it hard. Hope this helps.

Allan

You don't wrap cast iron manifolds or they will crack, the wrap retains too much heat.

Manifolds and turbos are wrapped on some race cars to minimise lag.
Wrapping headers is OK, I ran wrapped mild steel extractors/headers on a race car but I used to run 0W-5 oil too and I wouldn't use that in a road car.

Jet Hot, HPC and Swain Tech coatings are apparently OK on cast iron manifolds.

[scott oz]

OK,

Just priced the Thermotec from Rocket Ind howver the bloke couldn't confirm it was a silica base but confirmed the brand. Am I correct that the Thermotec are all silica based products?

Also when you "bandage" the exhaust you start under the turbo to past the transfer case. With the "flexable seciton" about a foot below the trubo do you leave this out.

Thanks all.

[130man]

Hi Scott, I have just examined the packaging of my roll of Thermo-tec and can't see a definitive statement of what it is made from. I recall the web site mentions silica somewhere.You are right to avoid the flexible joint in the exhaust below the turbo as the material will probably crack with the movement. The instructions on the pack mention "curing" with the heat so I imagine it will go hard once it gets hot.This would set it in place on the pipe so it won't come loose. Rick130 has had no problems in 4 years.Cheers, 130man.

[Boots]

G'day Scott,

Just wondering if you had completed the project and what difference you have noticed regarding heat.

Cheers

Boots

[scott oz]

Boots,

Haven't done it will probably take a few months.

What a pain in the rear end it was trying to get technical information on the Thermotec wrap. The variation in price for the same product in the US and Australia can be 50% including allowing for postage to Australia.

In the end I went for an alternative from this bloke jandjash@bigpond.net.au (jandjash@bigpond.net.au) who was the only person who could explain his product that I could get on the phone.

The blokes at rocket I rang three times while they had Thermotec 50ft rolls they had no idea if it was fibreglass based, no idea on how much I needed. Only new what they could read on the box. If I needed 100ft roll they would have to import which wasn’t a problem but gave me three different prices.

On the last (fourth) call telling them someone was “going to ring back” they just seemed disinterested.

[rick130]

AFAIK Cool-it Thermo-tec has always been a silica based wrap.

[edit]

Well, I'm wrong.

Back in the day when I last bought some ('95) they advertised it as a silica based wrap, but lo and behold there is none of that on their current website, so I went searching.
If all else fails, check out the MSDS. http://www.thermotec.com/files/resource/yfj_141806_exaust_wrap_msds.pdf

Fibreglass fibres 90-95% and a vermiculite coating 10-5%

[2nd edit]

Actually glass is basically silica :D Silicon dioxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:DuneBlanche.jpg" class="image" title="A sample of silicon dioxide as sand in a dune"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/DuneBlanche.jpg/244px-DuneBlanche.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/c/c5/DuneBlanche.jpg/244px-DuneBlanche.jpg

[T1ASLAV]

Hi

not sure if this will help as I am not all that mechanically minded but found this product on the lucky 8 website to cool the R380:

Lucky8 Llc. - Take the road less traveled... (http://www.lucky8llc.com/Products.aspx?ProductID=3751)

[rick130]

Hi

not sure if this will help as I am not all that mechanically minded but found this product on the lucky 8 website to cool the R380:

Lucky8 Llc. - Take the road less traveled... (http://www.lucky8llc.com/Products.aspx?ProductID=3751)

The OE oil cooler/t-stat housing and adding a proper heat exchanger on a Defender is discussed on the first page ;)