LOOK i slotted my BALLS!

[discowhite]

my swivel balls that is.

will give me between -1deg and +13deg with my lift. now to refit the lot and get an alignment done!
http://www.dropshots.com/photos/120521/20070206/000127.jpg
http://www.dropshots.com/photos/120521/20070206/000133.jpg

cheers phil

[discowhite]

all done with a drill a vice and a die grinder, and a bit of marking out;)

[walker]

Do you think you should drill an extra hole and tap the axle so that it does not twist back? (does that make any sense???)

[Grimace]

Do you think you should drill an extra hole and tap the axle so that it does not twist back? (does that make any sense???)

I have always thought this, and its one reason I wont be slotting my swivel mounts.

But hey good job in the end.

[crump]

I'm normally happy to scratch mine, but hey, it takes all kinds.:D

[loanrangie]

The holes arent curved in line with the radius ? looks like they will bind when you try to rotate them unless they are oversize and if so they are now paperweights.

[Vern]

Thats some massive slots:D
mine are about half that to suit 120mm front bumpstop height,
you must have a huge lift;)

[jimbo110]

with the super serious amounts of torque when you hit the brakes you will need some form of shims either side of the bolts in the slotted holes to stop them rotating. i dont think just doing the bolts up tight will be enough. :)

[DEFENDERZOOK]

with the super serious amounts of torque when you hit the brakes you will need some form of shims either side of the bolts in the slotted holes to stop them rotating. i dont think just doing the bolts up tight will be enough. :)




a couple of decent grub screws will prevent that happening......after the alignment has been done.....

this method is used quite a bit on landies......there arent too many others out there you can do this to....
on those cars you need to remove the diff and cut off and reweld the brackets in order to rotate the whole
diff assembly to acheive the same result.....

[jimbo110]

And of course this will all be certified.....................

you wouldn't want your insurance co to find this after an accident.................

must be BIG GRUB SCREWS to hold most of the 2 ton weight of a land rover.............in a 75mm radius........... in a panic stop.

better you than me mate:o

[tombraider]

And of course this will all be certified.....................

you wouldn't want your insurance co to find this after an accident.................

must be BIG GRUB SCREWS to hold most of the 2 ton weight of a land rover.............in a 75mm radius........... in a panic stop.

better you than me mate:o

Actually it IS certified as an acceptable modification.

And panic stop wont worry it at all once locked an torqued up.

If that was the case I'd be more worried about the other ****y bolts hold the rest of the vehicle together!

[UncleHo]

G'day Folks :)

Caster Corrected Radius Arms would be my choice:)

cheers

[jimbo110]

hey i'm not saying the wheels will fall off but if the swivel housing rotates at all the caster will change and the truck could pull suddenly left or right, just a couple of degrees can make a big difference, not fun in a panic stop. but hey, its not my truck, just my opinion:D

i would talk to a certifier before you go too far, but that's just my opinion.:D

[jimbo110]

G'day Folks :)

Caster Corrected Radius Arms would be my choice:)

cheers
or caster correcting bushes. though they can do strange things to your front drive shaft geometry.

[lokka]

all done with a drill a vice and a die grinder, and a bit of marking out;)

Best of luck to ya and hope they work ...

Man they are big slots thats over kill to the max let us know how they go as ive seen a diff cut n shut for this type of mod and i think the slotted balls would be heaps beta than cutting the housing and rotateing then welding back together ...

As for movement id run a couple of stiches round the flanges with a tig afta the alingnment just to be safe .

Cheers

Chris

[Redback]

Well if they work all is good, if they don't, he'll try something else, but knowing Phill i don't think he's gone at this half arsed, i think he may have spent a bit of time working this out.

All the other mods he's done have been good, so i think this will be fine.

Baz.

[HSVRangie]

They will work fine.

with the bolts tightened correctly the friction grip it generates will not allow them to slip.

this mod has been done for a long time now with no issues from those that have done it.

MIchael.

[dullbird]

phil is a clever cookie,

he doesn't jump in with his eyes closed.......from memory of the stuff he has done only one thing never worked out quite right which was his shocky mounts and he has rectified that now.......

i dont think anyone is stupid enough to start cutting up and drilling into a 2003 defender if they weren't convinced it was going to work........

personally i think good on yeh phil nice to see you got the balls to do these things rather than sitting on a forum and just talking about it!

the day will come when you have your own buisness and people are bringing the offroaders to you for modification.....

[dobbo]

phil is a clever cookie,

he doesn't jump in with his eyes closed.......from memory of the stuff he has done only one thing never worked out quite right which was his shocky mounts and he has rectified that now.......

i dont think anyone is stupid enough to start cutting up and drilling into a 2003 defender if they weren't convinced it was going to work........

personally i think good on yeh phil nice to see you got the balls to do these things rather than sitting on a forum and just talking about it!

the day will come when you have your own buisness and people are bringing the offroaders to you for modification.....


I agree


what she said

[DEFENDERZOOK]

I agree


what she said



i liked it better when she said it.......

must be her accent......

[dobbo]

i liked it better when she said it.......

must be her accent......


Same accent just I've been handed a certifcate, meat pie and a beer.

[stevo]

as long as it is a cold beer

[tombraider]

Well if they work all is good, if they don't, he'll try something else, but knowing Phill i don't think he's gone at this half arsed, i think he may have spent a bit of time working this out.

All the other mods he's done have been good, so i think this will be fine.

Baz.

Nope! He fully arsed it!

Just playing!:wasntme:

[walker]

G'day Folks :)

Caster Corrected Radius Arms would be my choice:)

cheers

Have to disagree. Slotting the swivels brings the steering back into line without rotating the diff back. I like my diff on a bit of an angle, it glides over things better.
And if I remember correctly (I might be wrong) but caster correction is legal while most bent radius arms are not.

BUT, I would have the extra hole drilled and tapped into the axle to hold it all. I had LRA do mine and it was not expensive at all and made a huge difference to the steering.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

if you want to things correctly by rotating the diff housing........you will also
need to move the filler plug up a bit in order to get the correct oil level......

[Pedro_The_Swift]

you dont miss much Zook,,,:D

[DRanged]

Yep works well no worries, although the slots should be done in a mill with an indexing vice.
And you should fit a Scotch Key ( grub screw or bolts fitted at the matting faces). Dont forget that the right hand side needs a little more negative castor for l/h drive roads.

Justin

[MacMan]

if you want to things correctly by rotating the diff housing........you will also need to move the filler plug up a bit in order to get the correct oil level......


Only iffen you have a perfectly flat driveway!

[tombraider]

if you want to things correctly by rotating the diff housing........you will also
need to move the filler plug up a bit in order to get the correct oil level......

How do you figure that?

Lift rotates diff forward

Castor bushes/diff rotation brings it back.

[loanrangie]

if you want to things correctly by rotating the diff housing........you will also
need to move the filler plug up a bit in order to get the correct oil level......

You just jack it up a bit when checking/ changing the oil. Or park uphill.

[loanrangie]

How do you figure that?

Lift rotates diff forward

Castor bushes/diff rotation brings it back.

Rotating the swivels wont though, the case stays where it is.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

its better to have the diffs slightly rotated...which the lift does for you.....as this reduces the angles on the unis a bit......

but this then throws out the caster angles which are corrected by rotating the swivel hubs.....
this also gives you adjustment on your caster where as it was previously a fixed angle.....

but....as i said earlier......it does affect the oil level slightly......may not be enough to bother with......i dont know......but it will lower the oil
level a bit......

[Mick-Kelly]

Whats an oil level, is that the stuff all over the garage floor :p :p :p
We are still talking about land rovers right??

[DEFENDERZOOK]

yes.....still talking land rover......


you need to keep them topped up or they will stop leaking......

[tombraider]

its better to have the diffs slightly rotated...which the lift does for you.....as this reduces the angles on the unis a bit......


Which in turn throws them out of their correct (not that LR diffs are correctly aligned) alignment inducing increased wear and vibration.

LR due to incorrect Uni alignment runs a semi phased front shaft on D1-RRC-DEF and a DC front on the D2 to overcome this shortcoming.

Lifting any of the aforementioned will often induce NVH.

Phil doesnt have that issue, so a simple adjustment of the swivels is a perfect solution to his woes.

Its sound engineering...

[mcrover]

Looks good to me, the only thing I would have done would be to tig up the holes first and then redrill them but then you don't have adjustment.

There is nothing stopping him from drilling in a couple of reasonable sized solid locating pins or the like, I have some here that are cat 3 that have a 2 tonne sheer rating each and are only 5/16" diameter.

I don't see a 2 tonne landy damaging 4 of them e.g.2 each side after the wheel alignment is correct.

By the way you can get them at any tractor implement supplies that sells Lely equipment, they are actually sheer pins for 120hp PTO drive clutch.

Failing that a couple of decent Mig welds after the alignment will fix it but is a bit bodgy.

I like it I don't think it is a problem.

[HSVRangie]

THEY WONT MOVE:

Michael.

[loanrangie]

No offense but they should be done in a mill and the slots should follow the same radius as the rotation, his slots are straight not curved as they should be, if the holes are oversize it will be sloppy and possibly dangerous.

[discowhite]

no offence but how the f%$K can you tell that from a photo??
geez b4 i buffed the marking out off the face you could have seen that the slots actually DO follow a radius!
i am a trade qualified fitter/machinist. i do know what im doing.
this post was for the people sitting at home who like to fiddle with there own cars that want to save a bit of money, basically to show them it can be done with minimal tools etc....




a couple of decent grub screws will prevent that happening......after the alignment has been done


i will do that after the allignment.
though straight after it was finished i did several brake tests at 60 and 90k's with and without the abs!
so far nothing has moved. and i dont think it will.

cheers phil

[Bush65]

IMHO, slotting the swivels is better than castor correction radius arms or castor correction bushes. Better still, but more work, is welding the holes and re-drilling.

I'm sorry, but I have known a lot of fitters and machinists, but none that know very much about bolted connections, particularly for connections subjected to cyclic loads that lead to fatigue failure (such as the bolts that hold the swivels to the axle housing).

Slotted holes reduce the fatigue strength of bolts, and in this application, should only be slotted just enough for the castor correction. Fitting a thick washer (say about 4 thick if possible) under the bolt head will help to restore some (if not all) of the fatigue strength).

An excessively long slot, where the bolt is not at one end of the slot may be pushing your luck, and not worth the risk IMHO.

If you want me to explain why the fatigue strength is reduced, I can try, but without diagrams it will not be easy and the concept can be hard to understand. It involves the ratio of the stiffness of the bolt to the stiffness of the joint. The stiffness of the joint depends upon how the compression from the bolt pre-tension is dispersed from the underside of the bolt head/nut (which is adversely affected by slotted or oversize holes).

Edit: Note, I am talking about the fatigue strength of the bolts, not the shear strength.

[jimbo110]

it looks like when the pro's do it they just fit an extra locating bolt to lock it, sounds good to me. http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/57.html

when i modify things i like to make them as good if not better than the originals, safety is no1. over engineering is one hell of a lot better than under engineering, otherwise we would all be driving jap trucks:eek2:

just my opinion.

[DRanged]

IMHO, slotting the swivels is better than castor correction radius arms or castor correction bushes. Better still, but more work, is welding the holes and re-drilling.

I'm sorry, but I have known a lot of fitters and machinists, but none that know very much about bolted connections, particularly for connections subjected to cyclic loads that lead to fatigue failure (such as the bolts that hold the swivels to the axle housing).

Slotted holes reduce the fatigue strength of bolts, and in this application, should only be slotted just enough for the castor correction. Fitting a thick washer (say about 4 thick if possible) under the bolt head will help to restore some (if not all) of the fatigue strength).

An excessively long slot, where the bolt is not at one end of the slot may be pushing your luck, and not worth the risk IMHO.

If you want me to explain why the fatigue strength is reduced, I can try, but without diagrams it will not be easy and the concept can be hard to understand. It involves the ratio of the stiffness of the bolt to the stiffness of the joint. The stiffness of the joint depends upon how the compression from the bolt pre-tension is dispersed from the underside of the bolt head/nut (which is adversely affected by slotted or oversize holes).

Edit: Note, I am talking about the fatigue strength of the bolts, not the shear strength.

Obviously you dont know all of the fitters in the world hey:mad:

Justin

[rovercare]

Obviously you dont know all of the fitters in the world hey:mad:

Justin

Yea, that about sums it all up, but he obviously doesn't know any machinists, my mate slotted mine for my on a milling machine, what a spot on job it was, still has the jig to:D

[matbor]

so Phil have you fitted them yet ??? has it improved it ???

[DarrenR]

over engineering is one hell of a lot better than under engineering, otherwise we would all be driving jap trucks:eek2:

just my opinion.

ohhhh how lucky you are this is a Land Rover forum.

My father, British and being a true die-hard-one-eyed Land Rover owner (owns a Defender and a Range Rover he has had for 32 years) is always fond of quoting "oh the Japanese never design anything" to which I'd reply, "no, they take everyone's designs and perfect-the-s**t-out-of-it and mass produce it"

heh, now I can see myself being bashed for saying that one here.....

Best regards
DarrenR

[rangieman]

ohhhh how lucky you are this is a Land Rover forum.

My father, British and being a true die-hard-one-eyed Land Rover owner (owns a Defender and a Range Rover he has had for 32 years) is always fond of quoting "oh the Japanese never design anything" to which I'd reply, "no, they take everyone's designs and perfect-the-s**t-out-of-it and mass produce it"

heh, now I can see myself being bashed for saying that one here.....

Best regards
DarrenR
consider your self banned for that one:twisted:

[dobbo]

ohhhh how lucky you are this is a Land Rover forum.

My father, British and being a true die-hard-one-eyed Land Rover owner (owns a Defender and a Range Rover he has had for 32 years) is always fond of quoting "oh the Japanese never design anything" to which I'd reply, "no, they take everyone's designs and perfect-the-s**t-out-of-it and mass produce it"

heh, now I can see myself being bashed for saying that one here.....

Best regards
DarrenR


Not true the Japanese invented Seppuku suicide

[discowhite]

so Phil have you fitted them yet ??? has it improved it ???


they have been fitted 2 days previous to the start of this post.
its like driving it when it was all stock, really great. and nothings come loose or moved!

cheers phil

[PhilipA]

I do not want to buy into the to and fros as I am not trained mechanically but- Its not going to come loose driving around on road. That's why cars are lighter than 4WDs.

If its going to come loose it will be off road on some rock steps in low range etc, where torque through the joint is greatest.
The strength of the flange area is not all that great .
Land Rover changed from 5 bolt flanges to 6 bolt for that reason in the mid eightys.
I have stretched the bolts of 5 bolt flanges off road. They come loose, but it's not loose it's stretch.
I think that the slots can only give more leverage against the bolts.
Only experience will tell, but check your bolt tension regularly, and if they become loose , replace them, as they are stretched.
Regards Philip A

[dobbo]

I do not want to buy into the to and fros as I am not trained mechanically but- Its not going to come loose driving around on road. That's why cars are lighter than 4WDs.
A Defender 90 weighs 150kg's less than the average aussie car (ie commodore)
If its going to come loose it will be off road on some rock steps in low range etc, where torque through the joint is greatest.
I think I'd prefer them to go in a situation like this as opposed to a highway situation
The strength of the flange area is not all that great .
Land Rover changed from 5 bolt flanges to 6 bolt for that reason in the mid eightys.
I have stretched the bolts of 5 bolt flanges off road. They come loose, but it's not loose it's stretch.
I think that the slots can only give more leverage against the bolts.
Only experience will tell, but check your bolt tension regularly, and if they become loose , replace them, as they are stretched.
Regards Philip A

[rovercare]

I do not want to buy into the to and fros as I am not trained mechanically but- Its not going to come loose driving around on road. That's why cars are lighter than 4WDs.

If its going to come loose it will be off road on some rock steps in low range etc, where torque through the joint is greatest.
The strength of the flange area is not all that great .
Land Rover changed from 5 bolt flanges to 6 bolt for that reason in the mid eightys.
I have stretched the bolts of 5 bolt flanges off road. They come loose, but it's not loose it's stretch.
I think that the slots can only give more leverage against the bolts.
Only experience will tell, but check your bolt tension regularly, and if they become loose , replace them, as they are stretched.
Regards Philip A

Pretty sure you meant from 6 to 7 bolts:p

They will be fine and there is no need to pin them, just some silicon between the surfaces and a little loctite and the bolts for good measure

This IS the best way for castor correction, only thing I see wrong, is you've done a poopy job keeping the holes where they should

I notice everyone who comments badly has never actually slotted their swivel hubs before:mad:

[jimbo110]

[quote=dobbo;498021]
A Defender 90 weighs 150kg's less than the average aussie car (ie commodore)

Ummmm, well, kerb weight of a 1996 90 S/W is 1793 kg (from owners hand book)
new commodore omega is 1690 kg. (from holden website).

[discowhite]

I notice everyone who comments badly has never actually slotted their swivel hubs before:angry:

happens alot around here!



only thing I see wrong, is you've done a poopy job keeping the holes where they should

really you cant tell that from the photo, i dont care how good your eyes are! the slots are neat its the champher around the edge tha makes it look crook.
it was far neater doing it this way than just trying to enlargen the hole with a die grinder.

the bolts are 12.9 grade also! dont think they will stretch.

cheers phil

[justinc]

Phil, Settle petal.

Fantastic job actually, and helps people think about why these mods are done, and just how attainable they are. Recently had a 2002 'Fender with this request, I got LRA to slot them for me as I couldn't find any interested parties here to do it for me in under 3 weeks!!! I just sent them over, they sent them back. I fitted it all up, including drilling some drain holes in the swivel housings to change to oil filled CV's, and scotch keyed after alignment. This vehicle has a BD 160Kw chip and mudders and gets USED. Nothing has come loose and it has made a different vehicle out of it. We actually tried the caster correction bushes first, but had some front shaft issues and the steering track rod kept getting trashed by rocks...


A safe mod done properly, and I'll no doubt be doing more in the future, the same way.

JC

[dobbo]

[quote=dobbo;498021]
A Defender 90 weighs 150kg's less than the average aussie car (ie commodore)

Ummmm, well, kerb weight of a 1996 90 S/W is 1793 kg (from owners hand book)
new commodore omega is 1690 kg. (from holden website).


WTF is a commodore Omega? Don't worry wouldn't be seen in one anyway,

OK Jimbo, you have me. You are the man. Congrats.

[rangieman]

[quote=jimbo110;498121]


WTF is a commodore Omega? Don't worry wouldn't be seen in one anyway,

OK Jimbo, you have me. You are the man. Congrats.
omega is the belmont:p

[discowhite]

omega is the belmont:p


NOT THE BLOODY KINGSWOOD!



Phil, Settle petal.


mate, i wasnt having a go. if i were i would have used one of these.:mad: :D


and helps people think about why these mods are done, and just how attainable they are

and this was the only out come i was expecting.

cheers phil

[justinc]

NOT THE BLOODY KINGSWOOD!



mate, i wasnt having a go. if i were i would have used one of these.:mad: :D

and this was the only out come i was expecting.

cheers phil



:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Its all good.

JC

[dobbo]

[quote=dobbo;498184]
omega is the belmont:p


Oh well I used to drive the Marrickville merc's anyway.

[jimbo110]

[quote=jimbo110;498121]


OK Jimbo, you have me. You are the man. Congrats.:tease: :clap2: :arms:





:whistling:

[Bigbjorn]

Kept out of this up until now as I initially did not know why this modification was being done. The machining is a very simple procedure using a slot drill or end mill in a vertical milling machine with the work piece held on a rotary table in dividing head mode. If you do not need slots for ongoing adjustment, just for a one off movement, why not weld up the original hole and mill a new hole (slot drill) in the required position for changing the angle?

[DRanged]

Kept out of this up until now as I initially did not know why this modification was being done. The machining is a very simple procedure using a slot drill or end mill in a vertical milling machine with the work piece held on a rotary table in dividing head mode. If you do not need slots for ongoing adjustment, just for a one off movement, why not weld up the original hole and mill a new hole (slot drill) in the required position for changing the angle?

Brian you need to slot them so you can get the correct castor done by your freindly aligment provider.:D

As for coming loose well, I am running the old 6 bolt swivels, scotch keyed and thread lock & spring w/s. No problems what so ever. As far as torque goes, I think the Isuzu with 4:1 diffs, rock crawler gears and 35" Creepies at 8psi is a good bench mark.

Jumping on the skids at 100km/h will put more load on it than most other cases anyway.:cool:

Good on you for posting in the first place, as someone said before the ones that are knocking it hav'nt done it and probably never will.:cool:


Regards justin

[matbor]

Looks great, top job.

Will any wheel aligment place align it for you ?

[DRanged]

Looks great, top job.

Will any wheel aligment place align it for you ?

They should do depending on your wheel size. Some castor aligners cant get around 35" or bigger when they go from lock to lock.;)


Justin

[discowhite]

Will any wheel aligment place align it for you ?

im going to talk to a ''specialist'' about it. some one who deals with larger vehicles, trucks and 4x4's.
no more beauies etc for me!

cheers phil

[DRanged]

im going to talk to a ''specialist'' about it. some one who deals with larger vehicles, trucks and 4x4's.
no more beauies etc for me!

cheers phil

Phil.

Is Pro-axle at Smithfield still there. They were the aligning gurus 10 years ago. I could have the name wrong as well.

Justin

[discowhite]

yep! at enfield and smithfield.

cheers phil

[discowhite]

well its well over a year, ive been all over the place, high country, fraser hopefully soon to the cape, and now there is 63 000k's on the clock, 26 000 ish when i started this thread...

so i have to confess..................... something about my slotted balls.......
























































THEY STILL HAVE NOT MOVED!!:rocket::thumbsup:

proof.
http://inlinethumb36.webshots.com/42083/2708463590100509853S600x600Q85.jpg
http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/43955/2317364590100509853S600x600Q85.jpg

[stevo]

Good to see

[Dougal]

Is that a trick of the camera or are there big ugly garks on your swivel balls?

[fraser130]

Well done!
I'd be VERY surprised if they did ever move, last time I had to undo those bolts on my car, I had to use a 3ft bar on a sidchrome ring spanner, the friction between those surfaces, with the bolst so tight, you'd probably be able to tear the tread of a tyre, or slip a bead before they would move!

Just my 2c but!

Fraser

[discowhite]

Is that a trick of the camera or are there big ugly garks on your swivel balls?


yep, dont know how they got there, think they may be stone strikes?? they look worse then they are due to the coating on the new swivells is black, the messy looking bit is where ive polished the bur off with a slip stone.

cheers phil

[jimbo110]

well its well over a year, ive been all over the place, high country, fraser hopefully soon to the cape, and now there is 63 000k's on the clock, 26 000 ish when i started this thread...

so i have to confess..................... something about my slotted balls.......
























































THEY STILL HAVE NOT MOVED!!:rocket::thumbsup:



Yet! ;)

[Dougal]

Yet! ;)

They won't move until something happens to several of the bolts.
That's why Bush65 earlier in this thread was talking about the fatigue strength of the bolts.
If a couple of the bolts get cracks growing through them, the clamp load will drop.
You'll probably notice them leaking before they shift if this happens, but the steps he mentioned earlier to help bolt life (i.e. thick supporting washers) are a very good idea.

[harry]

long winded thread,
they look the goods phil,

oh, drove spicers gap yesty, your tree is long gone.

[discowhite]

long winded thread,
they look the goods phil,

oh, drove spicers gap yesty, your tree is long gone.

bloody termites will eat anything!!:D

cheers phil

[INter674]

have done the same on our D1 and they have NEVER moved, even with upgraded brakes and 35's and teenage rampage....except, the slots were not as profound as these - and I wonder why they need to be so pronounced for the adjustment needed...but as said these should not be an issue provided the mating parts are sufficiently torqued together (but maybe lose the gasket in favour of a liquid one?).

We did contemplate putting a small weld across the flanges to prevent slippage, but having observed no movement from a couple of reference marks placed across the flanges, this was not necessary.

[350RRC]

Hi,

I did mine on a 74 RRC some time ago. Worked out how much extra caster I needed from the OL sticky (thanks HSV) and went from there with a slotting bit ($27 odd non trade) a jig, and a drill press.

Bolted the 'slotted' balls up to a spare housing using rusty oily bolts, checked the angles and filled the voids around the bolts with weld.

I am not a good welder, but all I had to do was clean up one surface a touch with a little grinder and they just looked like OEM. Did use thick washers under the bolt heads on reassembly.

Drives the way intended. Great return ( in driving pleasure) for time invested.

cheers, DL