Att! 2007 Defender engine sump gets damaged

[Ruslan]

Original source viermalvier.de (http://www.viermalvier.de/forum_php/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=457494&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1)

I'm not skilled in German, may somebody can give better translation. In short words, while offroading (articulation) a cross-flange joints get in touch with engine sump. More chance when steering wheel full lock right (?) Looks like design error :(

Damaged:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/148.jpg

Fixed:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/152.jpg

Cheers,
Ruslan

[waynep]

whoa ....that look like the uni to the front diff hits the sump on full LHS suspension compression ........

[rangieman]

Oops thats not like LR to design a fault into a car:eek:

There must be more than one fault:p

[willvine]

Holy dooly, was there any mods done to the suspension from factory such as longer shocks.:(:(

[PhilipA]

Er, unless I am very mistaken, the drive shaft goes only up and down, not side to side by about 80MM.
Thats why there are chamfers.

He has hit what is technically called "a rock". The damage even looks like it was caused by a rock.
Unless the engine mounts are so loose it can move about 80MM sideways.
But what part of a Yolk is sharp enough to put punture holes in a sump?
Regards Philip A

[MTB]

Supposedly Land Rover Germany has issued a statement that a replacement sump (different shape), providing more clearance will be available in mid to late November.

The truck in the photo was lifted, but apparently that was not the issue. The same thing happened to a number of others with stock configuration.

There is some discussion as to weather this problem is unique to left hand drive '07 Defenders or not.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Using Altavista Babelfish - Yuk!!!!

"If one the Td4 more highly and NO adjustable Panhardstab blocked can happen when full bouncing the following!

It goes thus very closely too with the Td4 at the oil pan."
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/148.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/151.jpg
Greetings

Peter

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YESTERDAY AFGHANISTAN, TODAY IRAQ! AND MORNING THE WHOLE WORLD? BUSH STOPS!
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Reply from Caruso:
Why can that happen?
Has no oh notices?
Which part is there reingesemmelt?
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No alcohol is also no solution.
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Reply from Selbermacher:
moment times..., cannot be nevertheless.

what should that be original for a long time panhardstab to it debt?
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in former times everything was better!
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Back to Peter:
It is the cardan shaft laterally into the tub strikes.

M.E. does not go the Panhardstab yet over the zero point if it hits.

I had know-eat from several such damage only THESE gave it with pictures.

Since need it and one will see on which it to remachining runs out. I have tomorrow a Td4 in the workshop and times a pair thought on this topic will waste.

Perhaps there is soon a hp oil pan.....

Peter
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I think I understood more in German!

[camel_landy]

Nah... There's more to it than just being under full articulation.

M

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Using Altavista Babelfish - Yuk!!!!

"If one the Td4 more highly and NO adjustable Panhardstab blocked can happen when full bouncing the following!

It goes thus very closely too with the Td4 at the oil pan."
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/148.jpg
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Reply from Selbermacher:
what should that be original for a long time panhardstab to it debt?
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in former times everything was better!
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Back to Peter:
It is the cardan shaft laterally into the tub strikes.

M.E. does not go the Panhardstab yet over the zero point if it hits.

....
Since need it and one will see on which it to remachining runs out. I have tomorrow a Td4 in the workshop and times a pair thought on this topic will waste.

Peter
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I think I understood more in German!
I get the impression that Peter has lifted his vehicle and didn't put in a longer (or adjustable) panhard rod.

With the vehicle on full articulation the original panhard has pulled the double cardan joint into the sump.

Goes to show you can't lift the vehicle without setting-up everything properly.

[Redback]

That's interesting they now have a double cardan front shaft like the D2:cool:

Baz.

[panamark]

Was searching for this and came across the site. So hello from Central America. I have a sump that looks exactly the same after a few 1,000km! And, before someone asks about susp mods, the only mod it has had is I threw the rearview mirror away.

My problem got a wee bit compounded as, brilliantly, the oil warning light does not come on if you rev the engine even a little (well, that's my excuse). It took probably 45 mins for all the oil to run out. Eventuallty going up a hill I hit high revs and bang went the turbo. As if by miracle the oil warning light decided to come on as the last of the oil went out the turbo seals I guess.

Still in for repairs. But, allegedly, is all under warranty.

Other than that am happy with it. Except the AC. It freezes really easily and needs me to switch it off for 5 mins and then back on again. Seems like it happens when I change the environment a little: window down to pay at a tollbooth or, on public roads, climb a few hundred metres where the air is cooler.

[JDNSW]

Just to clarify - when the front axle moves up and down relative to the chassis, or more precisely, when the end of the axle opposite to the steering box moves up and down, the panhard rod ensures it moves in the arc of a circle, and hence side to side as well.

As someone noted, the situation will be different on RHD. In this case, if lifted, with the original panhard rod, the axle will be to the left (towards the sump) in its static position, but would move to the right if the RH end moves up, but would still be to the left if the RH end is in its static position and the LH end moves up, and would move even further to the left if the RH end is drooped at the same time - i.e. cross axled. Add a bit of bush compression (or wear) in a dynamic situation .....

Although this probably would not have happened without the suspension lift, and probably cannot happen with RHD, it seems the clearance is a bit small to be safe in all situations.

John

[p38arover]

As someone noted, the situation will be different on RHD. In this case, if lifted, with the original panhard rod, the axle will be to the left (towards the sump) in its static position, but would move to the right if the RH end moves up, but would still be to the left if the RH end is in its static position and the LH end moves up, and would move even further to the left if the RH end is drooped at the same time - i.e. cross axled.

Isn't the panhard rod set up changed to the opposite side with LHD?

I'm pretty sure it is on my Rangie.

Or have I misunderstood - which I think is very likely. I'm trying to get my head around this. :(

[Graeme]

That's interesting they now have a double cardan front shaft like the D2:cool:

Baz.
It doesn't look like a double cardan joint to me, just a single one. The yokes don't appear to wrap around to where a spigot would be.
Edit: That's the diff end, anyway. No wonder no DC.

[Dougal]

Isn't the panhard rod set up changed to the opposite side with LHD?

I'm pretty sure it is on my Rangie.

Yes the panhard rods always follow the line of the steering drag arm. In germany (LHD if I remember correctly) you'd need to shorten the panhard rod to shift the joint closer to the sump. Most lifts people lengthen the panhard rod.

[rick130]

Dougal, remember on a previous thread you mentioned your RHS swivel housing doesn't have a steering arm and a bunch of people jumped on you ?

My Defender is bare on that side. Looks factory, too, not just snapped off.

[Dougal]

Dougal, remember on a previous thread you mentioned your RHS swivel housing doesn't have a steering arm and a bunch of people jumped on you ?

My Defender is bare on that side. Looks factory, too, not just snapped off.

:o:D

[JDNSW]

Yes the panhard rods always follow the line of the steering drag arm. In germany (LHD if I remember correctly) you'd need to shorten the panhard rod to shift the joint closer to the sump. Most lifts people lengthen the panhard rod.

Exactly. If the panhard rod was not lengthened when lifted, the prop shaft and diff are closer to the sump (LHD) from the sideways perspective, and for normal spring deflection it will return to its normal sideways position. But when cross axled with the LH spring fully compressed and the RH spring fully extended (beyond the factory droop), the prop shaft and diff will be closer to the sump than factory design. Not a lot closer (although that depends on the lift) but it does seem they cut things a bit fine.

John

[Dougal]

Exactly. If the panhard rod was not lengthened when lifted, the prop shaft and diff are closer to the sump (LHD) from the sideways perspective, and for normal spring deflection it will return to its normal sideways position. But when cross axled with the LH spring fully compressed and the RH spring fully extended (beyond the factory droop), the prop shaft and diff will be closer to the sump than factory design. Not a lot closer (although that depends on the lift) but it does seem they cut things a bit fine.

John

If the panhard brackets haven't been altered and the original panhard is used, then the diff cannot get closer to the sump than it can in factory form.

If the panhard brackets have been altered, then all bets are off.

One other factor, had the diff been rotated (radius arm mods) as part of the lift? This could bring the drive flange end higher and closer where it would otherwise miss.

[rick130]

If the panhard brackets haven't been altered and the original panhard is used, then the diff cannot get closer to the sump than it can in factory form.

<snip>


correct. a spring lift has no bearing on this whatsoever.

[JDNSW]

correct. a spring lift has no bearing on this whatsoever.

Sorry, can't agree on this - if the axle can go lower than the factory spring extension limit, the axle will move further towards the sump - simple geometry (the panhard rod moves in an arc - as the axle end moves down relative to the chassis, it also moves sideways relative to the chassis - how far is limited by the shock absorber extension limit on the side opposite the steering box). If, at the same time, the right spring is fully drooped and the left is fully compressed, the diff and prop shaft will be closer to the sump.

John

[Sprint]

just look at any VG-VP-VR-VS commodore ute thats been lowered, and check out how much further over the diff sits

[rovercare]

just look at any VG-VP-VR-VS commodore ute thats been lowered, and check out how much further over the diff sits

Yea, but when the suspension is returned to original height, it has no bearing on the postion, it returns back to normal, the panhard is a fixed item and doesn't change lenght.................they've screwed the sump design;)

[Sprint]

it doesnt change length, but due to the design, it will move the diff from side to side with suspension travel

[rovercare]

it doesnt change length, but due to the design, it will move the diff from side to side with suspension travel

Of course it does:D

But when its at standard height and in its original arc, the diff is in the same position, as in, if the front diff was in its standard limits of travel, even with a lift as the shocks were pobably not longer than factory, it can only be in the same position achievable before

Hence it can't be a fault of the lift:D

[Sprint]

you're still assuming they used the stock shocks with the suspension lift....... lets just toy with the idea that they didnt

[Dougal]

you're still assuming they used the stock shocks with the suspension lift....... lets just toy with the idea that they didnt

No, I think we're all clear that it could droop further. But the difference it makes is minor.

The panhard on my rangie measures roughly 85cm, if the axle drops by 200mm from the bar being horizontal then it moves sideways only 2.5cm.
If it drops 300mm from horizontal it moves sideways only 5.5cm.

Not quite sure what numbers you're expecting, but that's not much.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

as it drops it moves down below the sump........

[Scouse]

LR have released a bulletin on this problem. It was originally issued for a specific market but has been revised to a general bulletin.
The fix is a revised sump.

It must be a very rare occurance. We haven't seen a problem on the cars through here (and that includes a few Press Cars).

[rovercare]

you're still assuming they used the stock shocks with the suspension lift....... lets just toy with the idea that they didnt

Still wont make a lick of difference:D

LR have ****ed up;)

[rovercare]

LR have released a bulletin on this problem. It was originally issued for a specific market but has been revised to a general bulletin.
The fix is a revised sump.

It must be a very rare occurance. We haven't seen a problem on the cars through here (and that includes a few Press Cars).

And there it is:D

[JDNSW]

It will make from your figures about 1cm of difference - and as perhaps you mean - if that brings the u-joint into contact with the sump, then the clearance is far too little. Note that with RHD the situation may well be worse if it is that little clearance - the nearest to horizontal the bar gets is full spring deflection on the left side, and while crossaxling it will not make the situation worse, note that the sump gets wider further up, so it must be awfully close at full bump on both sides. But here lifting will make the situation better, not worse, as it will move it further away from the sump.

But the clearance must be pretty small for the problem to arise in any conditions - I can just visualise a stick coming up and jamming between them.

John

[isuzurover]

Not so hard to believe...

The UJ on my IIA rubs on the flange of my standard (late model noise baffled 2.25) sump on full travel.

A mate with a stage 1 and RM parabolics had to swap the drain plug from a hex-bolt to a recessed allen-plug as the UJ was hitting.