Opinions On Drop In Diffs Using True-tracs Or Lockers?? [Archive]

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cockie55

7th January 2008, 10:47 PM

I would welcome some expert opinion and help with my drop-in replacement decision for factory front and rear diffs. This involves:

1. A minor moded auto V8 D1 Disco (24-spline) with minor suspension lift that I have owned since new so I know what it has done. Only drive train issues is some minor de-acceleration clunking associated with any multiple diff setup with 170K + under the belt.

2. I use this as my “daily driver” (low miles) plus I take I take it into some pretty hairy off road situations (traction issues particularly in sand when heavily loaded most of the time but only from time to time a lot of articulation) and usually alone and with no help around.

3. I aim to do a body lift and increase rubber to around 33” or so in the future.

4. The “daily driver” aspect makes me very cautious and respectful of extra strains caused by upgrading diffs so I don’t think I will putting axles, CV’s etc under threat…well at least intentionally.

5. Introducing additional noise and reduced on-road handling with this diff replacement exercise is not acceptable to me under any circumstances.

6. Additional switches, solenoids, relays, pressure switches, air compressor and air lines etc associated with on demand lockers does not worry me at all …but do I really need the added traction that comes with those complications and having regard for my use? See also Item #7.

7. Cost and interest wise I want to do this drop-in diff replacement myself…..I am pretty handy and have all the tools …but I am not a motor mechanic and I am “time poor” so other work like a disc to disc replacement etc etc becomes an issue.

With the above in mind I think my best bet subject to expert advice and opinion is an auto LSD set up and not fully blown lockers is as follows:

FRONT: Truetrac Front Differential. An auto gear-operated design like this is only option to preserve Disco constant 4Wd, seems to suit my off-road needs and with the potential straight-line tracking ability loss with in caster angle change in the front axle caused by a future lift; a Truetrac should do away with need to fit potentially inferior "caster-corrected" radius arms. Also as gear not plate type operated diff it requires no special oils, maintenance or operational expertise.

REAR: Likewise a Truetrac or possibly an auto locker like say a Detroit but I don’t think I need a locker with my use in mind and Truetrac will be easier on rest of my stock drive train plus I think easier to fit.

A. Is my drop-in replacements decision sound, (incl rear Truetrac instead of say an auto Detroit locker) and is the improvement worth the $ invested?

B. Am I realistic thinking I can install with little drama and can I do one (front then rear) at a time?

C. Should I be looking at replacing any other aspects of drive train, transfer etc etc while at it?

D. Should I be looking at changing gearing at the same time with future lift and rubber increase in mind or is this easy to do later?

Thanking you in anticipation.

Blknight.aus

7th January 2008, 11:39 PM

now thats a well posed can of worms....

just for openers with all the other stuff your planning to do (Assuming your disco has a CDL )Id have thought that just a rear on demand locker would have pushed you through most of what you might come across and then you could fit another to the front later.... But theres a couple of little things you might be a tad off of the mark on...

changing the dffs (unless you also change ratios) doesnt really put any more strain on any other component than a normal rover diff does and unless youve got a bung diff wont add anymore noise, that usually comes from your choice of rubber.

the castor correction isnt a problem for changing the diff (unless Im off the mark on what your calling a true track diff a true track is just a diff that is desinged as an lsd/lock diff for a front axle) its from lifting it, as you lift it the front axle pivots down on its locating arms and this in turn changes the castor (and kingpin inclination angles+ toe in on turn adustments) which is what you need to correct. all of which now requires inspections to pass for roadworthy and its getting harder to get that stuff past.

hope thats helpful in some way.

cockie55

8th January 2008, 12:25 AM

Dave thanks ...but probably a bucket not a can of worms with the length of my post...

Yes I have CDL... however you will see my severe off road driving conditions being heavy load in loose stuff being sand and gravel etc I am inclined to think getting all 4 X wheels getting traction albeit reduced <100% is preferable to on-demand 100% rear lock only as being the best option for me??? Then again if I knew why would I ask one would say???

If I am contemplating drop in F&R diff changes to get traction happening on both front and rear wheels (not one of each under CDL), I hope to buggery they are putting more strain on my stock drive train (strengthening the diff and it's torque transfer = axles and CV's etc higher stress loads = increased wheel traction)....otherwise why bother changing diffs?...and yes as I indicate I am contemplating a lower gear change with extra rubber diameter to add to that strain on stock axles and CV's etc.

My comments about the castor correction were not directed at emanating from changing the front diff but from a lift, but then a truetrac style front LSD solves any castor correction issues associated with that lift as I am led to believe? Then again if I knew why would i ask?

Thanks Dave

Tusker

8th January 2008, 07:12 AM

Your #5 prerequisite rules out a Detroit locker, they can be clunky on road, and make the handly a bit squirrely in SWB cars. A mate in LROC had an early Disco with a Detroit, didn't tell SWMBO, but she picked something was "wrong" with the car.

If you've had a poke around expeditionexchange.com, you'll see the Yanks favour a front truetrac to overcome the castor loss. Seems to me you'd be better curing the disease, not masking the symptoms.

Have you got traction control? If so go Truetracs F&R. They work well together.

But the ultimate is conventional lockers. Completely undisturbed handling on-road, & heaps more traction off-road - but only when you need it.

Regards
Max P

cockie55

8th January 2008, 09:17 AM

BigJon

8th January 2008, 09:45 AM

Putting auto and on demand locker aside my main concern with Truetracs front and rear is do they really deliver much extra traction in sand/gravely conditions???

I have a rear TrueTrac in my 88 Rangie. The difference it made on sand is astounding. Rather than dig holes by spinning diagonally opposite wheels and getting stuck, it just keeps driving forwards. Very soft sand at road pressures will see it sink in until the rims are touching the sand, but it still moves forwards (slowly).
As an added bonus, stopping one rear wheel from spinning freely also prevents one front wheel from spinning.

Chucaro

8th January 2008, 10:06 AM

I have a rear TrueTrac in my 88 Rangie. The difference it made on sand is astounding. Rather than dig holes by spinning diagonally opposite wheels and getting stuck, it just keeps driving forwards. Very soft sand at road pressures will see it sink in until the rims are touching the sand, but it still moves forwards (slowly).
As an added bonus, stopping one rear wheel from spinning freely also prevents one front wheel from spinning.

BigJon do you know who is the agent for TruTrac in Oz ?
Cheers

jbell110

8th January 2008, 10:51 AM

Opposite Lock stock true-trac & detroit there good to deal with

Jeff

Chucaro

8th January 2008, 10:57 AM

Thanks mate

BigJon

8th January 2008, 11:07 AM

BigJon do you know who is the agent for TruTrac in Oz ?
Cheers

I got mine from LDS (Locked Drive Systems).

diff locks, diff lockers, locking diffs, locking differentials, automatic locking differentials, NoSpin automatic locking differentials, Detroit Locker automatic locking differentials, Truetrac helical gear limited slip differentials, traction aids (http://www.locked-drive.com.au/)

rovercare

8th January 2008, 11:26 AM

I will be not going very high or beyond 32/33 tyres so I am hoping castor loss not a real issue and little there is that a front truetrac would deal with it.

Your truetrac will have NO effect on castor, castor is part of your steering geometry when you lift a vehicle, the true trac replaces the differential part of the diff.....no connection between the 2;)

You're severely affecting road handling once you put the larger tyres on, fit a detroit to the rear, you'll seldom even notice its their and much better traction than any LSD as it'll positively lock

cockie55

8th January 2008, 12:43 PM

Guys very helpful stuff from you all...thanks.

Rovercare I get your point about Truetrac not effecting castor. I get the impression a Truetrac makes the vehicle steer straighter which in turn compensates for steering change attached to the loss of caster coming from a lift (in my case a mild lift). More I think about road driveability I think I will stick to less than 31" and avoid a body lift. I see you think I won't notice a Detroit on the the rear which is comforting news.

BigJon your good rating of a rear Truetrac in sand is good news. I completely forgot about getting both wheels working prevent opposing wheel on opposite end from spinning when CDL activated. That makes a very good case for having Trutracs front and rear for my application doesn't it.

Have look at these prices from DTS!!!! I am going to see if they will ship to Oz and how much.

DTS - Drive Train Specialists (http://www.drivetrainspecialists.com/index.html)

BigJon

8th January 2008, 01:03 PM

Have look at these prices from DTS!!!! I am going to see if they will ship to Oz and how much.

DTS - Drive Train Specialists (http://www.drivetrainspecialists.com/index.html)

Let us know the result of that enquiry, I am certainly interested in getting another one.

Chucaro

8th January 2008, 01:18 PM

A very quick search in USA gives the cost of a Truetrac and average of U$A 450.00 which in Oz currency is $ 513.00
Link: Detroit Truetrac Limited Slip (http://www.nationaldrivetrain.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page44.html)

Chucaro

8th January 2008, 01:29 PM

discowhite

8th January 2008, 03:13 PM

Thanks Max.

I will be not going very high or beyond 32/33 tyres so I am hoping castor loss not a real issue and little there is that a front truetrac would deal with it.

A D1 so it has no traction control. The clunkyness of the Detroit is a pity to hear as I thought it a good auto locker for Discos and a half way choice with my typical conditions in mind maybe not warranting a 100% on demand locker. Instal at diff also appears easy compared to a on demand locker was also making it attractive.

Putting auto and on demand locker aside my main concern with Truetracs front and rear is do they really deliver much extra traction in sand/gravely conditions???

clunkyness of a detroit is no quite correct!
the new detroits are technically called soft lockers and are vertually noise free! i have one in my 90. but... the old detroits were noisy and abit scary, i had one in a D1. so if you buy any detroit made in the last 5years it will be very quiet and will opperate as per normal onroad. fact.

true tracks will help with your castor but it is not a fix, i have one of these also in my 90 and it did work for correction but wasnt a pinch on slotted swivell balls.

cheers phil

discowhite

8th January 2008, 03:19 PM

Your truetrac will have NO effect on castor, castor is part of your steering geometry when you lift a vehicle, the true trac replaces the differential part of the diff.....no connection between the 2;)

You're severely affecting road handling once you put the larger tyres on, fit a detroit to the rear, you'll seldom even notice its their and much better traction than any LSD as it'll positively lock

correct, but the true track self steers and in turn takes out alot of the wander. i was shocked as to how well it worked on my 3'' lift, but it still tram tracked and bumpsteered all over the show, just no as bad, hence the slotted swivells.

cheers phil

rovercare

8th January 2008, 03:19 PM

clunkyness of a detroit is no quite correct!
the new detroits are technically called soft lockers and are vertually noise free! i have one in my 90. but... the old detroits were noisy and abit scary, i had one in a D1. so if you buy any detroit made in the last 5years it will be very quiet and will opperate as per normal onroad. fact.

true tracks will help with your castor but it is not a fix, i have one of these also in my 90 and it did work for correction but wasnt a pinch on slotted swivell balls.

cheers phil

The truetrac can't possibly alter castor whatsoever, it obviously changes the drive charecteristics of the vehicle and helps "pull" the front?, but what about under decell or brakes, can't be doing much then

rovercare

8th January 2008, 03:21 PM

Haha, you replied to my post before you read it:D

cockie55

8th January 2008, 05:52 PM

I knew I should have not mentioned words "castor" and "Truetrac" in same sentance...LOL.

Phil and Rovercare have kindly rescued me from thinking Detroits should join the Clunk Club and BigJon makes it pretty clear just a single rear Trutrac will do wonders.

I am starting to think this choice between rear Trutrac or Detroit is maybe a question of whether my driving style in predominantly loose sandy conditions is enough to keep my stock axles and CV in one piece when matched to a auto locker.

Having said that the Detroit "soft locker" concept of both wheels being always in constant 100% drive mode but allowing wheel speed differentiation when required sounds bloody appealing.

Well gents what what you reackon it should be for me??

A. Truetrac rear only (max on-road comfort),OR
B. Truetracs front and back OR
C. Trutracs up front and a Detroit rear (take it a bit easier on and off-road)

Cheers Simon

PS. BigJon I will let you know outcome of my enquiry to DTS.

discopete

8th January 2008, 06:05 PM

Even better source TRUETRAC > LANDROVER (http://www.drivetrainspecialists.com/categories/truetrac/landrover-1.html)
U$A 412.91 for the 912A383
I will like to have some info from members to find out how to go about in importing a Truetrac and hoew much can cost the import duties.
In Oz they run out of stock and next shipment is in February.
Cheers

I've ordered a TT and DT from DTS. Shipping to TAS was 165USD$ per unit. I received the DT, still waiting on stock of TT. Supposed to be around now. The DT took 4 days shipping time to arrive at my door. I ordered each unit seperate to avoid gst and duties. Works out cheaper this way. I emailed for shipping quote then simply ordered from their website with a MC.

Pete

Chucaro

8th January 2008, 07:19 PM

I've ordered a TT and DT from DTS. Shipping to TAS was 165USD$ per unit. I received the DT, still waiting on stock of TT. Supposed to be around now. The DT took 4 days shipping time to arrive at my door. I ordered each unit seperate to avoid gst and duties. Works out cheaper this way. I emailed for shipping quote then simply ordered from their website with a MC.

Pete
Thanks Pete for the reply
Are they accepting Visa or have to be Bank transfer ?
Cheers

tombraider

8th January 2008, 07:33 PM

My comments about the castor correction were not directed at emanating from changing the front diff but from a lift, but then a truetrac style front LSD solves any castor correction issues associated with that lift as I am led to believe? Then again if I knew why would i ask?

Thanks Dave

What makes you say castor corrected arms are inferior?

And for the record, the self centering of the TT **masks** the issues, it doesnt correct them.

Jezzaol

8th January 2008, 07:45 PM

I havee a Full Detroit rear & Detroit trutrack Front 96 D1 with 2" Ssupension Lift 40mm Body Lift and 35" Tyres. Below is a Copy & Paste of another thread I answered on Detroit's :

A:How easy was it to install (for those that self installed) Fairly Straight forward, remove diff Centre, Assemble with new detroit Hemisphere, Set back-lash and tolerence (may need help from experienced person) Refit Re-fill with standard oil and never touch again except for standard diff maintance !

B:Inital impression? Very impressed with both : full detroit rear, no noise, can not tell its there at all when on the black stuff. Front Trutrack : Amazed at how good this is : Worm Drive LSD Style locker, Downfall : Only about 80% Lock : Advantage : Drivability On and Off road, feels beter on the blackstuff than before it went in, Off Road I have full steering and feel ALL THE TIME ! and not fighting the wheel when climbing like with full lockers in the front, and find with a slight amount of brakeing when traction is lost it engage's and works extremely well........... Other advantage : Much nicer on your drive train, having some give your axel's and CV's will last MUCH MUCH longer ................. for an everyday user coupled with a good set of tyres this locker would be a great system for both front and rear diffs !D.

Test of time results? No external failure points, very rare for internal failure would expect normal diff life span. No user error, maximum traction always applied to the ground.

C. Extras you had to purchase as a result of the locker? Would recomend H/Duty CV's and Axels with any full locker regardless of brand (other than trutrack)

D. And most importantly....how much did it cost? Between $1000 and $1600 unfitted ea Fitting about $500 for both diffs

Hope that helps

Cheers

Blknight.aus

8th January 2008, 07:47 PM

cool, I see youve made some decisions and your on the right track, you seem to know what you want to be able to do and how to go about getting it...

Theres a few little discrepencies in the way your using some terms but the broad picture is there.

Yes I have CDL... however you will see my severe off road driving conditions being heavy load in loose stuff being sand and gravel etc I am inclined to think getting all 4 X wheels getting traction albeit reduced <100% is preferable to on-demand 100% rear lock only as being the best option for me??? Then again if I knew why would I ask one would say???

A wheels traction is how much grip its got on the ground, you could have all the lockers in the world and every driving aid on the planet if all 4 wheels had 0 traction youd go nowhere. Driving aids like lockers and Traction control redistribute Torque to wheels that can actually use it instead of letting it all disapear to the wheel thats got the least use for it.

If I am contemplating drop in F&R diff changes to get traction happening on both front and rear wheels (not one of each under CDL), I hope to buggery they are putting more strain on my stock drive train (strengthening the diff and it's torque transfer = axles and CV's etc higher stress loads = increased wheel traction)....otherwise why bother changing diffs?...and yes as I indicate I am contemplating a lower gear change with extra rubber diameter to add to that strain on stock axles and CV's etc.

OK missed that bit if your going a diff ratio change to a lower ratio (numerically higher say from 3.54:1 to 4.11:1) you are only putting more stress on the components between the diff and the wheel generally as most upgrade "drop in" diffs are made by places that also do after marked axles Id assumed youd change them. The rover CV itself if looked after is a very strong unit being rated to take the whole driving load of the vehicle if needed, its when you start seriously monkeying with the power/wheel size and neglecting them they start to let go. Normal failure mode is to snap the axle and then the bits of shrapnel take out the CV.

My comments about the castor correction were not directed at emanating from changing the front diff but from a lift, but then a truetrac style front LSD solves any castor correction issues associated with that lift as I am led to believe? Then again if I knew why would i ask?

Thanks Dave

The True track is a mechanical LSD (from what I got from the site) and it would make sense to put one in the front end it does some serious "compound planetry gear magic" to do what it does but the upshot is that the wheels will split the torque from the diff proportionally across to provide the same power (effort over time or in this case effort over distance) to the ground while cornering this means that both wheels are trying to pull the vehicle through the corner in the direction that both wheels are pointing in (this gets very very complicated verry very quickly once you get into it)

I have a rear TrueTrac in my 88 Rangie. The difference it made on sand is astounding. Rather than dig holes by spinning diagonally opposite wheels and getting stuck, it just keeps driving forwards. Very soft sand at road pressures will see it sink in until the rims are touching the sand, but it still moves forwards (slowly).
As an added bonus, stopping one rear wheel from spinning freely also prevents one front wheel from spinning.

I like this, it supports my initial concept for you of doing the rear first and the front second but also highlights a tertiary benifit of influencing the front axle when the CDL is in and your driving offroad.

I knew I should have not mentioned words "castor" and "Truetrac" in same sentance...LOL.

Phil and Rovercare have kindly rescued me from thinking Detroits should join the Clunk Club and BigJon makes it pretty clear just a single rear Trutrac will do wonders.

Some still do but it depends on what type of detroit locker you get Theres 3 that I know of that are lockers and 2 that are more like LSD's

I am starting to think this choice between rear Trutrac or Detroit is maybe a question of whether my driving style in predominantly loose sandy conditions is enough to keep my stock axles and CV in one piece when matched to a auto locker.

Imho with a locker of some type in the rear with upraged axles (or in a sailsbury) a soft locker in the front or an LSD would be all that youd need providing you dont try to give it too much noise when your in the stuff where you'd need lockers you'll be fine.

Having said that the Detroit "soft locker" concept of both wheels being always in constant 100% drive mode but allowing wheel speed differentiation when required sounds bloody appealing.

Well gents what what you reackon it should be for me??

A. Truetrac rear only (max on-road comfort),OR
B. Truetracs front and back OR
C. Trutracs up front and a Detroit rear (take it a bit easier on and off-road)

Cheers Simon

PS. BigJon I will let you know outcome of my enquiry to DTS.

The nice part about the disco is the diffs are the same front and rear.

If you put the truetrac in the rear to start with and decide to put a proper locker in the rear later its an easy job to flip it to the front.

But from another post Ive not quoted it looks like youve got your gear on the way. so best of luck with it... dont for get piccies for the forum....

discowhite

8th January 2008, 07:58 PM

If you put the truetrac in the rear to start with and decide to put a proper locker in the rear later its an easy job to flip it to the front.

cant! they are different part numbers, something to do with how the worm are cut, will work well in reverse though;)

Imho with a locker of some type in the rear with upraged axles (or in a sailsbury) a soft locker in the front or an LSD would be all that youd need providing you dont try to give it too much noise when your in the stuff where you'd need lockers you'll be fine.

nope, not unless you want to fit free wheeling hubs;)
a soft licker is a detroit locker, ie, fully locked, untill conering.

cheers phil

Chucaro

8th January 2008, 08:00 PM

Reading an article in an Argentinian Land Rover forum a member with a Defender mentioned that his rig have a Truetrac front and rear and he believes that it is the best combination for mud and sand. However he believes that if the driving is done in trucks with a lot of rock claiming the Detroit locker will be the best for that application.
He is very happy with his Truetrac and was able to get out of very difficult situations in mud.
What are your thoughts about this ?

discowhite

8th January 2008, 08:08 PM

i agree, cant beat a detroit in tuff rock work, and with the TC and the true track up front the little 90 will get its self into and out of a lot of situations, with ease mind you, none of this flooring the poo out of it style of driving:cool:

here is a short vdo of the DL and TT and TC in action, you can see the TC braking the pass side front wheel slightly.
YouTube - the wrong line (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UIRDIu-4VM)

cheers phil

jik22

8th January 2008, 08:12 PM

BigJon do you know who is the agent for TruTrac in Oz ?
Cheers

Speak to Locked Drive Systems in Sydney (They are the distributor) as they were heaps cheaper than any of the retailers when I enquired. If you're going to fit yourself, there's no sense paying a retailers mark-up unless you're likely to need their help somewhere.

Otherwise, I can also recommend Keith at Rovertracks (http://www.rovertracks.com/aboutus/) in the US - and the landed price should still be cheaper than the price here with the current strength of the A$.

Chucaro

8th January 2008, 08:19 PM

Thanks, so far the best quote is U$A 412 from DTS.
I have to ask Keith about it.
Cheers

Lucus

8th January 2008, 09:06 PM

Whats that god awful banging sound?

Blknight.aus

8th January 2008, 09:08 PM

cant! they are different part numbers, something to do with how the worm are cut, will work well in reverse though;)

It should work in both directions given that it works on the laws of compound planetries and last time I checked they work in both directions (well untill you start putting sprag clutches in with them)

Might ping them an email (done)Id be interested to know more about the functionality of them.. (never know with the interest this thread has generated IT'll be my luck the next PM I get will be "dave my truetracs playing up. beerski for lookski?")

nope, not unless you want to fit free wheeling hubs;)
a soft licker is a detroit locker, ie, fully locked, untill conering.

cheers phil

I use Soft locker as a generic term not a name brand/type. Some lockers dont lock untill a certain amount of slip is encountered, and they then lock untill the driving torque is removed (ie you get off the noise) I do know that these ones are directional as they generally work off of a sort of one way clutch mechanism... which makes em useless if you ever have to reverse out of a bog hole.

discopete

9th January 2008, 06:07 AM

Thanks Pete for the reply
Are they accepting Visa or have to be Bank transfer ?
Cheers

Visa,MC.Amex from memory. Should say on website.

Pete

Blknight.aus

9th January 2008, 06:29 AM

Email sent, email recieved.

The unit works in both directions But is deliberately set up to be stronger in one direction than the other but thats all they know, Installation is very DIY if you have feeler gauges and a DTI apparently..

They've bumped me onto their supplier (read the manufacturer)

(more emails sent)

SInce IVe got my foot in their door now how many people want them as we might be able to do a one off bulk order at reduced cost....

Chucaro

9th January 2008, 06:55 AM

mark2

9th January 2008, 07:36 AM

I've just imported a Detroit from the USA. Got it through Keith from Rovertracks. Very good to deal with and arrived quickly. For some reason my credit card has not been charged yet:eek: Maybe the bank is waiting for the dollar to drop some more :mad:

I would not be afraid to put a Detroit in the rear, I dont really know its there. If anything, its reduced backlash in the diff - only about 2cm at the wheel now with the handbrake on. I havent noticed much if any improvement in the sand but in other offroad situations - BIG difference. I have a copy of a magazine comparison of Detroit, Maxi, TC and ARB equiped 110's and no difference was observed in the controlled sand test. IMHO I wouldnt bother with any locker/LSD if you only do sand driving. I would invest in a set of sand tyres/rims which dont have to be that large anyway. 235/85/R16's at 20PSI will take a Disco with a CDL anywhere you want to go on the sand. Keep a set of standard tyres for on road use.

cockie55

9th January 2008, 08:47 AM

Thanks everyone ...all my questions answered some great advice.

I am going to give Truetracs front and rear a go and at a combined value of less than Aust Customs threshold of AUD $1,000 for getting hit for import duty and GST, that is also looking to be a pretty sweet deal in the wallet department.

olbod

9th January 2008, 12:13 PM

Pardon my ignorance here, but why would putting trutracs in be a
preferable alternative to using one or two ARB airlockers in the same vehicle ?
Cheers.

BigJon

9th January 2008, 01:07 PM

Pardon my ignorance here, but why would putting trutracs in be a
preferable alternative to using one or two ARB airlockers in the same vehicle ?
Cheers.

Much cheaper, much easier installation, nothing external to the diff to get torn off, no driver input required regarding activation.

How is that for starters?

discowhite

9th January 2008, 02:54 PM

I use Soft locker as a generic term not a name brand/type. Some lockers dont lock untill a certain amount of slip is encountered, and they then lock untill the driving torque is removed (ie you get off the noise) I do know that these ones are directional as they generally work off of a sort of one way clutch mechanism... which makes em useless if you ever have to reverse out of a bog hole

a locker is a locker, and you still dont put and auto/softlocker in the front
of a constant 4x4.
so if your going around a corner in the rain under steam and the inside wheel (the un waited one) hits a pot hole and locks due to '' a certain amount of slip is encountered'' and locks this would induce quite abit of front steer, ie bad. would it not??

cheers phil

BigJon

9th January 2008, 03:46 PM

you still dont put and auto/softlocker in the front
of a constant 4x4.

From what I have seen, this is because when the diff unlocks, the inner wheel speed is slaved to the crownwheel speed.
This means it is trying to go a little bit faster than it should be, which is slightly slower than crownwheel speed.
This in turn gives very strong self centreing effect of the steering.

Chucaro

9th January 2008, 05:38 PM

cant! they are different part numbers, something to do with how the worm are cut, will work well in reverse though;)....................
cheers phil

About swapping the rear Truetrac to the front at later stage, a friend of mine sent me the following instructions to make it possible . I do not know the original source so I cannot acknowledge the site

Flipping Truetrac Gears

(Making a front Truetrac a rear or a rear a front)

Got a rear Truetrac that you want to put in your front diff? Or, just get a sweet deal on a front Truetrac that you want to put in the rear of your Disco?

If yes, then follow these few simple steps in flipping your Truetrac gears.

(For an intro on how a Truetrac functions, see great basin rovers or expedition exchange )
Carrier/ differential orientation

For the purpose of this article, I will refer to the ring gear end of the Truetrac

(i.e. the side with the ring flange) as the bottom and the opposite end being the top.

In the photos below, photo 1 is of the ring gear flange facing up, or bottom facing up.

Photo 2 is of the Tractech Truetrac carrier

Photo 3 is of the top facing up.

Disassembly

With carrier bearings removed, place Truetrac “TOP” facing up on a clean work surface.

Remove the (3) 19mm bolts and cap from the top of the carrier

Note the orientation of the gears.

This is important, so if you are easily confused take some digital photos before continuing on further. In order to keep this simple, the rotation of the center gear will be the rotation designation. So if, when removing the center gear, the gear spins up and clockwise, it will be called CLOCKWISE. For this example, I am setting up a front Truetac to be a rear, so the rotation of my TOP gear is COUNTER-CLOCKWISE.

Remove center gear

Remove both sets of friction rings and coned washers.

Note the orientation of the coned washers.

Remove the 3 outer helical gears and place next to the center gear.

(As a reminder, mark table “TOP GEARS”)

Top of carrier w/ no gears

Now rotate/ invert the carrier 180 degrees, so the ring gear flange (or bottom) is now facing up. Remove the (3) 19mm bolts and end cap.

Note the rotation of the gears.

Now the center gear when rotating up spins CLOCKWISE.

Remove center gear and outer helical gears.

Place on table and label “BOTTOM GEARS”

Reassembly

Now with the bottom of the carrier still facing up, install the (3) outer helical and center gears that were labeled “TOP GEARS” on your table. The counter-clockwise or “TOP GEARS” are now being place on the bottom side of the carrier.

Install cap and (3) 19mm bolts with locktite and torque to 65lbs

Now invert the carrier once again so that the “TOP” is facing up.

Install friction rings and coned washers.

(Note the coned washers flare out towards the friction rings)

Now install gears labeled “BOTTOM GEARS” on the table, in the carrier.

Note that the gears on the top side now rotate CLOCKWISE.

Install cap and (3) 19mm bolts with loctite and torque to 65 ft-lbs.

Now install a new set of bearings, (Timken set 47) and you’re ready to install in your third member.
RECAP AND TRUETRAC IDENTIFICATION

If the gears rotate CLOCKWISE on the top end of the carrier, it’s a REAR Truetrac

If the gears rotate COUNTER-CLOCKWISE on the top end of the carrier, it’s a FRONT Truetrac.

Blknight.aus

9th January 2008, 06:20 PM

sorry but you guys just arent making sense here........

If you put a soft locker in the front and set it up too tight you'll have problems why? because It will lock up at too litte a wheel speed difference and think that its slipping instead of allowing it to slip enough to deal with turning... Im almost positive i mentioned something about setting up the diff before you put it in.....

Didnt you say something about a soft locker being one thats locked untill you try to corner.... Umm if it unlocks when Im cornering care to explain why its a problem to put one in the front if it unlocks when I turn?

But I digress in a nutshell If your silly enough to install you LSD or softlocker type diffs set up too tight you deserve everything you get.

I can see where Bigjon is coming from with the wheel speed on corners thing but unless your driving it in front wheel drive (because for some reason youve had to remove the rear propshaft, OR your driving onroad with the CDL in (again if your doing this you deserve whats coming to you) what has been said about the crownwheel speed being slaved to the inner wheels speed is correct but its not a problem as the Center diff will take care of it offloading drive torque to the rear. It becomes problematic when you have It set up to tight causing wheels to scrub and the steering to want to pull you all over the shop (a touch more toe out helps with this).

on the bulk order thing I was thinking of doing it syndicate style where they set up a batch addresed to differnt names but the same address paid for as individual lots but sent as one batch. It might save on shipping and they might knock a few bucks off...

(Im still waiting on the tech support reply.)

Chucaro

9th January 2008, 08:00 PM

Because I am very interested in this subject and my only experience is regarding 4WD tractors with constant 4WD (permanent in the 4 wheels) I asked the question to some owners of Land Rovers fitted with Truetrac front and back and the only comment from all of them is that the diffs are hardly noticed when are active and only they become aware when turning because the steering tries to pull to neutral, therefore a habit of holding the steering wheel for longer period with minimum effort during turning it is required.
The same effect is present in some tractors.

Dave regarding the idea of bulk order, it is interesting and we can look into further.
Locked Drive Systems Pty Ltd have replied to my email and they are going to confirm cost for one unit, but always we can ask for a second quote with an address and quantities.
Cheers

Chucaro

10th January 2008, 06:01 AM

Here is another very good source of information for swapping the rear diff (Truetrac) to the front:
discoweb.org -- (http://www.discoweb.org/)
Then go to tech and select Truetrac gears.
Cheers

rick130

10th January 2008, 06:51 AM

sorry but you guys just arent making sense here........

If you put a soft locker in the front and set it up too tight you'll have problems why? <snip>

getting our terms mixed up here.

When the boys are talking of a 'Soft Locker', they are referring to a version of a Detroit Locker or No Spin which has the axle shafts locked together 100% when running straight ahead and un-cams (is that a word ??) the large drive dog clutches when the outer wheel overspeeds the inner wheel, giving differential action.
The original versions were noisy, loud and harsh with lots of back lash. They induce copious amounts of corner entry understeer thanks to the rear end being fully locked on a trailing throttle/corner entry.
They tended to cycle between coast and drive mid corner, depending on throttle position and would clang and bang and make the **** end jump all over the place, particularly in something light like an XU-1. The secret was to get the front end roughly pointing where you wanted it and nail the throttle.
I've driven them and I hated them.

The newer versions have some refinements and most users report them being much more civilised, but you wouldn't use one in a front axle of a full time 4wd.

Tru-Tracs, Torsens and Quaiffe ATB's are torque biasing diffs, not lockers. They never lock fully, only apportion a % of torque from one axle to another. The % bias is determined in the design of the helix and the amount of pressure the worms exert on the case. They can't be adjusted post manufacture.

Chucaro

10th January 2008, 07:37 AM

Today I have the email with the quote from DTS:
Here is the pricing:
The unit (TT 912A383) runs $431.61.
Shipping via Bax Global Door to Door Express (only option available) runs $160.00.
Total : U$A 591.00 = A$ 669.46 @ 1 AUD = 0.8828 USD
The freight quote is based in delivery to Moore Park Beach, Qld
I am waithing from Dave regarding possibilities of bulk purchasing.

Chucaro

10th January 2008, 08:02 AM

Estimated quote from the Australian Importer Locked Drive Systems Pty Ltd is
A$ 940.00 + GST = A$ 1034.00
They expecting shipment nest month.
If we import them fro DTS in USA a saving of A$ 364 per unit

olbod

10th January 2008, 11:32 AM

Thanks Bigjon.

BigJon

10th January 2008, 12:08 PM

Thanks Bigjon.

No worries :D

Chucaro

10th January 2008, 04:14 PM

Diff lock Vehicle performance, an extract from a document by the manufacturer
The performance of a vehicle equipped with a NoSPIN/Detroit Locker differential is somewhat different from that of a vehicle
equipped with a conventional differential. For example:
When turning a corner, the sound of component disengagement and re-engagement may be audible, and the transfer of
driving torque from both wheels to one wheel may be noticeable.
When going from drive (acceleration) to coast (deceleration) in a turn, a "metallic" sound may be heard as torque flow is
reversed (inside wheel engaged during acceleration; outside wheel engaged during deceleration).
These characteristics are normal because of backlash designed into the NoSPIN differential, which is of a fixed amount (1 to
2 inches of rotation at the tire tread).
Backlash or slack between the driving and driven clutch teeth is an inherent part of the NoSPIN and necessary to permit
automatic operation when driving in forward and reverse. The total backlash in the driveline is increased by the amount of the
reduction between the ring gear and pinion. If the ring gear-pinion ratio is 5 to 1, the total backlash in the driveline with the
NoSPIN would be about 30°. This in turn is increased by clearances between planetary gear, sliding splines and the ring and
pinion gear. We feel that the total driveline slack can amount to as much as 1/4th turn of the driveline without being abnormal,
but if it exceeds 1/4 turn, other parts in the drivetrain could be checked. Further clarification of operational and performance
characteristics is available through Technical Bulletin No. 81 -1044. A copy is available by writing to our Marketing Dept.
Anything that improperly causes a difference in individual wheel speeds, such as mismatched tire diameters due to
differences in tire wear or tire pressure, or unbalanced loading of the vehicle (especially cargo vehicles, or vehicles operated
on a side slope) can cause the NoSPIN differential to deliver power to only one side of the vehicle and thus cause steering
problems.
When negotiating a turn (outside wheel disengaged), the inside wheel under conditions of poor traction may receive
excessive torque, which could cause it to break traction momentarily until its speed is equal to the outside wheel. This will
result in re-engagement of the outside wheel thus allowing both wheels to be driven. This condition is most noticeable with
lightly loaded axles.
Certain vehicles equipped with NoSPIN differentials, such as short wheelbase trucks (e.g., under 120" wheelbase) and four
wheel drive trucks with a NoSPIN differential in the front steering axle, can experience "understeer" when negotiating a turn
under power. Releasing the accelerator will reduce the torque and improve steering.
Use extreme caution when accelerating or decelerating on slippery or unstable surfaces. Vehicles/axles equipped with
traction differentials are inherently more sensitive to side-slip than vehicles equipped with conventional differentials. Stability
can be retained if side-slip occurs by decelerating (Letting off the accelerator) CAUTION: DO NOT APPLY THE BRAKE. TO
DO SO MAY RESULT IN LOSS OF VEHICLE CONTROL.
Braking capacity is reduced when a NoSPIN differential equipped vehicle makes a turn while coasting downhill in that the
inside wheel is then disconnected from the driveline. Operating in low gear will allow the engine to act as a retarder and will
improve braking capacity.
If the vehicle is stationary on a dry surface, easier steering can be achieved by moving the vehicle slightly in either forward or
reverse. (Assure that proper steering pressure is maintained.)

cockie55

11th January 2008, 04:20 PM

Found this on Truetrac fitting ....

Off-Road Adventures Magazine (http://www.oramagazine.com/pastIssues/0806-issue/index.asp?article=truetrac)

Chucaro

11th January 2008, 05:23 PM

Quote from an Oz supplier

Thank you for your enquiry.

There is two different types of rear diffs in the Discovery. One is a
Salisbury rear diff, and the other a Landrover diff.

To fit one to the Salisbury rear diff you would be looking at $1317 plus
fitting. To fit one to the other you would be looking at $1106 plus
fitting.

Please do not hesitate to contact me should you have any further questions.

Regards

Greg Browne
Opposite Lock Redcliffe
10/39 Grice St, Clontarf Q 4019

BigJon

11th January 2008, 06:32 PM

Good to see they know what they are talking about :eek:. There was no Discovery fitted with a salisbury diff from factory.

cockie55

11th January 2008, 06:49 PM

Chucaro.....Quote from an Oz supplier......."To fit one to the Salisbury rear diff you would be looking at $1317 plus fitting. To fit one to the other you would be looking at $1106 plus fitting"...........

Is this supplied and fitted Mr Chucaro and Truetrac or rear Detroit????

Wot do they mean "Salisbury" diff on a Disco??? No such animal. Surely he not calling latter 24 Spline a "Salisbury" to differentiate to earlier 10 splines Disco's and calling them Rover diffs .....and wanting an extra $200 for no apparent reason as manufacurer makes no price difference??

Blknight.aus

11th January 2008, 07:12 PM

Most places dont list the make of landrover that the diff is fitted to and (excusing the changes of 10+21 spline drives for the axles and the spider gears)

only list their stock as

Diff, Landrover Sailsbury 8HA rear
Diff, Landrover rear

Since rover in their infinant lazyness decided it would be better to get it right once and leave it alone they only made 2 types of diffs and have fitted the same ones to pretty much everything since day dot.. (Yes Im aware theres a little simplification and exageration but near enoughs good enough)

Chucaro

11th January 2008, 07:23 PM

rovercare

11th January 2008, 07:35 PM

(excusing the changes of 10+21 spline drives for the axles and the spider gears)

That's a typo, Right?

Blknight.aus

11th January 2008, 07:37 PM

Chucaro

11th January 2008, 07:48 PM

Just a caution on doing the direct import thing...

should the unlikely happen and something goes wrong with it once its in even if you get it installed by a pro you have little recourse for getting your $$$ back if the mechanic decides to do the "its obviously an inferior specimin, you abused it and it failed not my fault, go see the supplier" and the supplier will go "bad install you abused it and it failed, not our problem go see the installer"

Not to discorouge you from doing it for the saving your making its worth it If you happen to have someone you trust to do the install.

Thanks Dave, yes I will give the installation to some of good reputation. i am getting a bit old for doing this type of work. Oil & filters change and grease is the maximum that I am doing this days.
By the way, did you received any email from overseas regarding a bulk order ?
Just wonder how many members are interested in importing diffs and which type.

cockie55

11th January 2008, 08:12 PM

Mr idiot here missed your words Chucaro ..."plus fitting".....

That is then around a $400 plus difference between importing or supporting our local comrades for a "drop in" piece of gear.

Plus fitting plus consumerables plus other parts like new bearings, seals etc while you got it apart, shims etc will make this a friggen expensive exercise in the hands of the expert.

Hear wot you say Dave about recourse etc if something goes wrong by importing the main bit ....but gee got to be something better than relying on a supply and instal with no local competition

Chucaro

11th January 2008, 09:13 PM

Well so far we are saving $ 437.00 per unit (Truetrac)
I disagree with Dave in his argument ...should the unlikely happen and something goes wrong with it once even if you get it installed by a pro...With my previous experience (40 years in Oz) with motor mechanics I do not think that I will get much satisfaction regarding a claim with a dogie tradesman. We all know how is the Law in Oz, any dispute will cost 3 o 4 times more than the work done or amount claimed regardless if you win or loose, so Dave your point cannot be taken into consideration.
If the mechanic is capable and honest there are not many chances of technical problem or arguments . Having similar background to a motor mechanic (the only difference is that I worked with industrial and agricultural machinery) I make allowances for human mistakes. Bad workmanship and unscrupulous behavior is always a risk.

Blknight.aus

11th January 2008, 09:32 PM

That's a typo, Right?

yep should have been 24... hey its been one of those days. Im several hours behind schedule thanks to bloody syncro units jumping apart while assembling the input, lay and output shafts into a gearbox. Man thos little suckers can jump a ways when the selector ring lets the ball flick out of the guide pad...

No further word from the manufacturers re purchasing the diffs or any potential technical issues including the batch I sent from work.

Looks like you have the low hand as is Chucaro

discowhite

12th January 2008, 07:56 AM

Tractech (TRACTECH) expressly warrants each TRACTECH product or part to be free from defects in materials and workmanship under
NORMAL USE AND SERVICE.
A. Differentials
1. In new vehicles
a. For licensed vehicles, when not used in competition of any type, for the lesser of: 1) the same period
(of time, mileage or hours of use) as the other drive axle parts are warranted by the axle manufacturer in that vehicle or 2)
one year from date of delivery or 100,000 miles of differential use by the first user; or
b. For non-licensed vehicles, for the same period (of time, mileage or hours of use) as the other drive axle parts are warranted by the
axle manufacturer in that vehicle.
2. In used vehicles
a. For licensed vehicles, when not used in competition of any type, for the earlier of 100,000 miles of differential use or one year from
the date of delivery to the first user; or
b. For non-licensed vehicles, for the same period (of time, mileage, or hours of use) remaining, if any, as the other drive axle parts
are warranted by the axle manufacturer in the vehicle.
3. For vehicles used in competition of any type, for 30 days from the date of delivery to the first user.
B. Clutches and Brakes For six (6) months from date of delivery.
There exist specific MANUALS for each TRACTECH differential indicating the appropriate application, operation inspection and
maintenance criteria. IT IS MOST IMPORTANT THAT ANY SELECTOR, PURCHASER, INSTALLER, MAINTAINER OR USER
CAREFULLY READ the relevant MANUAL before any application is selected or any operation or maintenance is attempted.
Also TRACTECH strongly encourages each designer, prospective customer or user to submit an application approval request using
TRACTECH Differential Application form 7003, Clutch Application form 3003, or Brake Application form 8003 as applicable.
NORMAL USE AND SERVICE means that:
A. The product or part will be applied, installed, operated, inspected and maintained in accordance with the TRACTECH Operation
and Maintenance Manual, and Owner's Manuals for the specific product;
B. The maintenance of the product must meet or exceed the level specified by the vehicle or equipment manufacturer for the
TRACTECH product or similar product; and
C. The product will be applied and operated within the boundaries of any written TRACTECH APPLICATION APPROVAL by the
TRACTECH Engineering Department.
THE FOREGOING WARRANTY IS EXCLUSIVE, AND IN LIEU OF ALL OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED (WHETHER
ORAL OR WRITTEN), INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR ANY
PARTICULAR PURPOSE. No person, including any dealer or representative of TRACTECH, except the President of TRACTECH, is
authorized to make any representation or warranty concerning TRACTECH products on behalf of TRACTECH or to assume for TRACTECH
any obligation not contained in this warranty, including a warranty of fitness for any particular purpose. This warranty gives you specific legal
rights and you may also have other rights which vary from state to state. ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING THE IMPLIED
WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, TO THE EXTENT THE SAME CANNOT BE
DISCLAIMED UNDER APPLICABLE LAW ARE LIMITED IN DURATION TO THE EXPRESS WARRANTIES SET FORTH ABOVE
EXCEPT IN THOSE STATES THAT DO NOT ALLOW TIME LIMITATIONS ON IMPLIED WARRANTIES. THERE IS NO IMPLIED
WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR ANY PURPOSE WHEN THE PRODUCT IS
PUT TO AN INDUSTRIAL, COMMERCIAL OR RENTAL USE.
In no event does any warranty, express or implied, apply to loss, harm or damage to the extent caused by any or all of the following; wear to or
failure of other drive train parts; freight damage; use of components, parts and/or accessories not obtained from or approved by TRACTECH
or which do not meet TRACTECH quality and performance specifications; improper installation, maintenance, repair, misuse, or abuse,
normal wear of moving parts or components affected by moving parts; and/or unauthorized alterations or Modifications.
EXCLUSIONS
TRACTECH SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR SPECIAL DAMAGES (i.e. Broken ring & pinion,
axles, bearings, differential covers, towing & labor charges) OR EXPENSE ARISING DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY FROM A DEFECT IN
PRODUCTS MANUFACTURED OR SOLD BY IT OR FROM THE USE OF ANY SUCH DEFECTIVE PRODUCT, INCLUDING BUT NOT
LIMITED TO DAMAGES, EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT THAT EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL
DAMAGES IS PROHIBITED BY APPLICABLE LAW.
TRACTECH RESERVES THE RIGHT TO MAKE CHANGES IN DESIGN AND OTHER CHANGES, MODIFICATIONS, ALTERATIONS OR
IMPROVEMENTS TO ANY OF ITS PRODUCTS WITHOUT THERE RESULTING ANY OBLIGATION UPON TRACTECH TO FURNISH
OR INSTALL THE SAME UPON ANY PRODUCTS PREVIOUSLY SOLD AND DELIVERED OR PRODUCTS THEN IN PROCESS,
MANUFACTURE OR DISTRIBUTION.

At TRACTECH'S option, TRACTECH will credit the buyer's account for the purchase price of, or repair or replace without charge for
materials, any TRACTECH product that failed within the warranty period that is finally determined by TRACTECH to have been defective in
material or workmanship.
Any suit or action arising out of or relating to this Warranty, or the breach thereof, must be commenced within one (1) year after the cause of
action has accrued. The foregoing shall not limit the time within which any suit or action must be brought to collect an amount agreed to be
paid by the buyer or to enforce a judgement for or to collect any such amount.
It is expressly agreed that the liability of TRACTECH is limited, and TRACTECH does not function as an insurer. All buyers of TRACTECH
products waive subrogation on all claims covered under their own or any other insurance.
If TRACTECH should be found liable to anyone on any theory (except breach of any express warranty, where the exclusive remedy is as set
forth above), the liability of TRACTECH shall not exceed the purchase price of the involved TRACTECH product (or service) when sold (or
when service is performed) by TRACTECH to the first buyer. THE REMEDIES SET FORTH HEREIN ARE EXCLUSIVE AND ARE IN LIEU
OF ALL OTHER REMEDIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, regardless of theory, cause or origin of any loss, harm or damage resulting directly or
indirectly to any person, organization, entity or property, including without limitation: the performance or non-performance of any obligation
set forth in this Warranty; breach of any agreement (oral or written including specifications) between TRACTECH and its customer or the
buyer; negligence, active, passive or otherwise, of TRACTECH or any of its distributors, agents or employees; breach of any warranty or
covenant implied or imposed by law; misrepresentation; and/or strict liability.
The sole purpose of the stipulated exclusive remedies shall be to provide the buyer with a credit or replacement for, or the repair of, defective
products or services in the manner provided herein. The exclusive remedies shall not be deemed to have failed of their essential purpose so
long as TRACTECH is willing to credit the buyer's account for the purchase price of, provided replacement for, or repair, the defective
products or services in the manner prescribed herein.
When adjustment is sought under this Warranty, a claim should be made within six (6) months of the date of failure, as follows:
A. Users in North America
1. If the product or part was purchased installed by the original equipment manufacturer (or its dealer), follow the manufacturer's
procedures for warranty claims; or
2. If the product or part was purchased through a distributor of TRACTECH products, have the distributor write or phone
TRACTECH Customer Service Department and ask for an Authorization to Return Material number. Supply the distributor with all
requested information. Have the distributor ship the entire product (freight prepaid) to our Warren, Michigan factory. Evaluation of
claims take 4-6 weeks from the time the unit is received.
B. OEM's in North America Contact TRACTECH to receive a written Authorization to Return Material with number.
Then return material to TRACTECH (freight prepaid) and include a copy of Authorization to Return Material and reason for return.
NOTE: At the option of TRACTECH, material may not need to be returned, but written confirmation must be obtained prior to
TRACTECH'S approval of a credit memo.
C. Outside North America
Follow the procedure in Paragraph A or B immediately above but do not return product or part. You will be contacted regarding your claim.
LIMITATION OF REMED
ADJUSTMENTS
TRACTECH DIFFERENTIAL LIMITED WARRANTY, AND LIMITATIONS

cockie55

12th January 2008, 10:37 AM

That is a pretty reasonable warranty and caters for overseas buyers it seems

discowhite

12th January 2008, 12:31 PM

i dont think you will have any issues.

cheers phil

rick130

12th January 2008, 04:06 PM

except for freight to and from the US....

Chucaro

12th January 2008, 04:25 PM

except for freight to and from the US....

Which if it is comes to the event that we have to send it we still are going to be more than $ 200 dollars in front.

cockie55

12th January 2008, 06:32 PM

except for freight to and from the US....

...unless what they mean with "Outside North America - Follow the procedure in Paragraph A or B immediately above but do not return product. You will be contacted regarding your claim" ....

....Is their 4X4 fraternity language for ...

"Stuff it...you keep those 25lb paper weights and and will send you replacements gratis ...you just pay the freight for the suckers" ;);););)

wheelie77

12th January 2008, 06:47 PM

BigJon do you know who is the agent for TruTrac in Oz ?
Cheers
Hey BigJon,

How much did you pay for your rear trutrac? I just priced one from Oppsite Lock and the rear was going to be $1200 which seems a little steep considering they are $350 us$ so you should be able to get them over for little over $500? Anyway, this all depends on what you paid for yours :P

Cheers David

djam1

12th January 2008, 07:01 PM

The Australian Importer is Locked Drive Systems in Sydney and Im pretty sure Bigjon got his from them.
Importing them sounds like the cheap way of doing it
For the record and to respond to the original question I use a Detroit No Spin in a Salisbury and find it excellent the increase in performance is incredible.
DONT put a Detroit Locker or No Spin in the front it will end in tears.
Putting a TruTrack in the front is fine and is easier on the CVs than a ARB etc provided you dont start jamming your foot on the throttle and the brakes at the same time to get through. I recall having a discussion with Mal Storey a while ago and he was adamant that I shouldnt put a Trutrack in the front as it would interfere with the steering. I just know a lot of people and to my knowledge the Australian Army have done it without issue.
I think a Trutrack in the front is a good thing as it eliminates the 2 pinion diff centre which is the weak point in the Defender/ Series Vehicles (provided you have a Salisbury rear)

Chucaro

12th January 2008, 07:04 PM

Hey BigJon,

How much did you pay for your rear trutrac? I just priced one from Oppsite Lock and the rear was going to be $1200 which seems a little steep considering they are $350 us$ so you should be able to get them over for little over $500? Anyway, this all depends on what you paid for yours :P

Cheers David

If you are looking in replay 47 in this thread you will see exactly how much cost delivered to Moore Park Beach, Qld

rick130

13th January 2008, 06:43 AM

<snip> I recall having a discussion with Mal Storey a while ago and he was adamant that I shouldnt put a Trutrack in the front as it would interfere with the steering. <snip>

I'm surprised he thought that as that style of torque biasing diff is used in front wheel drive cars all the time.
Quaiffe's ATB is OE to Ford in the UK in one of the RS Fiestas or some such small hot hatch.

When the Tru-Trac was first announced in the mid seventies, there were several reports in the US mags about it and it's operation, and it was found to be fine in the front end of full time 4WD's (most large yank 4WD's were full time back then)
Supposedly Jeep had installed one in the front of a Cherokee (back then they were full size) with the Quadra Trac system, and all they found at high speed on bitumen was an increase in front end grip, so it made the beast a touch overtseery. This was at race speeds.

The only thing that would be more benign on the front end would be a viscous coupling, and they seem to have fallen out of favour in the last few years.

BigJon

13th January 2008, 11:03 AM

viscous coupling, and they seem to have fallen out of favour in the last few years.

Subaru use them in the rear diff of Foresters, WRXs and Outbacks. Not in the front though.

wheelie77

13th January 2008, 04:43 PM

Hey guys,

My current thinking is that i will install a detroit full time locker in the rear and a detroit lsd in the front, can you tell me your thoughts on this setup?

Also, i have talked to Oppsite Lock and the australian distributor for the detroit lockers and the prices quoted have been about $950 for each. Now this is cheaper than the ARB versions but considering that you can buy them from the states for $330 this seems a little steep. I have emailed a us distributor to ask about freight costs from the states but i am expecting to be able to get both for little over $1000. Can you guys see a great benifit in getting them from the australian distributor considering it will cost more than 3x the price?

- cheers dave

Chucaro

13th January 2008, 05:07 PM

Diff

15th January 2008, 09:57 AM

Any news on a group purchase? I know of a couple of others who would be interested as well.

Thanks

Blknight.aus

15th January 2008, 07:24 PM

Ive heard nothing back from them... Chucaro seems to have the best deal going Id touch base with him.

Blknight.aus

16th January 2008, 06:09 AM

on behalf of Chucaro Ive gotten in contact with kieth from rovertracks and he's willing to look into a segmented bulk order to help us save some $$$.

Given the depth of the email he sent back to me in terms of how he does business, and the tech tips he passed on Id deal with him even if he was the next to cheapest supplier.

His ideas gel with my ideas and the turn around time for the email was something less than 2 hours (not sure how that works out with time differences and stuff) but considering Im STILL waiting on replys from a couple of other places Thats outstanding.

For the initial calculations Ive suggested he work the basic numbers on 8 people wanting diffs and 4 of them will want both (12 units all up). My plan is that if this goes ahead then providing the diffs get here in time for me to pack them into the car (or trailer) for Cooma then we can pony express them down on the way. to pluck some numbers OOMA Id suggest that this means you need to have your order in place by the end of january (2 weeks) so that they arrive in aus in with some time to spare so that runs can be figured out.

Details as they come.

mark2

16th January 2008, 07:31 AM

I highly recommend Keith at Rovertracks. He's just sent me a Detroit (for a Salisbury). Got the credit card statement the other day. All up, it was $630 Australian including postage, currency conversion and card fees. Took about a week to get here. So the bulk deal should be even better. Customs might/will get involved on a bulk deal if it all comes at once - sounds like you are already planning for that when you are talking about segmenting the order..........

And, to reinforce what others have already said, no clunks, no steering issues - its not noticable on the road. IMHO I wouldnt bother with a Truetrac in the rear - go straight to a Detroit and put a Truetrac in the front after that if needed or do both at once.

Chucaro

16th January 2008, 07:58 AM

The following links are the Detroit FAQ from the manufacturer and owners manuals which can be downloaded in PDF format.

Cheers

Detroit FAQ
FAQ - Eaton.com (http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/ProductsServices/PerformanceProducts/Products/Differentials/FAQ/index.htm)

Truetrac owner's manual
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@per/documents/content/ct_128482.pdf

Detroit Locker owner's manual
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@per/documents/content/ct_128312.pdf

cartm58

16th January 2008, 10:35 AM

L keep seeing this thread pop up under new posts but nothing been added since 9th January when ll view it, what's going on.

I did contact Kevin in USA regarding True Tracs, l've been quoted $470 apiece for front and rear true trac for range rover 93 model plus $100 shipping fee, which is good deal price wise even after Aus to USA currency swap.

All l need to do is arrange for wife to be home to sign for them with courier.

Chucaro

16th January 2008, 11:15 AM

Perhaps you are not interested in reading the last 38 posts with information and opinions since the 9/2 :eek:

Blknight.aus

16th January 2008, 09:52 PM

We'll start working on it based on that information. Keep in mind I can also supply ARB airlockers for less that some of the guys on the AULRO board have been quoted locally (that Australia locally).

Thanks
Keith
Untitled Document (http://www.rovertracks.com)

that hit my inbox this arvy.

Im not trying to push his gear (and im making nothing from this) but since this is being done to help cut handling costs IT makes sense to have a look to see if one of his other items is what you need. From other correspondance I dont think he'll be upset if we dont just order lots of one item.

100I

16th January 2008, 10:06 PM

L keep seeing this thread pop up under new posts but nothing been added since 9th January when ll view it, what's going on.

I think there's rats in the cupboard, I've noticed the same fault from time to time

cockie55

16th January 2008, 11:36 PM

When I started this thread I was comitted to sticking by my D1 diff choice criteria of ;

"Wanting a wee bit more traction in loose stuff...had to be a self instal .....I will never ever play hard in flinty bits ..X my heart....and defnitely no interest in playing hide and seek with SWMBO and mid week couriers at front door with exotic replacement drive train bits in hand,,,I even made a pact with myself to keep minor lift and be happy with rubber around 31" and no more". :angel::angel:

After some fine advice from you guys the above equaled = Truetracs max front and rear........and then just a case of waiting for DTS in land of the Beach Boys to email a price less delivery of <AUD$1,000 (no duty & GST) to me here in Bris Vegas :p:p.........sweet..then...

.....Dave goes and posts link to Rovertracs site of "strong exotic shiny metal bits" and talk of cheap ARB lockers.......and mark2's advice of ...stuff it... "go straight to a Detroit and put a Truetrac in the front"....and chucaro takes time off from whale watching to post 30 page detroit manuals....thanks dudes ...I am now back in therapy and square numero uno :eek::eek:

Outlaw

17th January 2008, 12:22 AM

Okay after prompting from Blknight about a bulk purchase i have now read the entire thing AND glad to say my opinion of the last year of a detroit in the rear and truetrac in the front still sticks... put me down for a rear salisbury detroit :D

cockie55

17th January 2008, 12:40 AM

....and now Outlaw (reminded by Dave) of his circa 2007 advice.. "a detroit in the rear and truetrac in the front still sticks".....sheeeeet its a "Detroit/auto or a 100% locker out the back" conspirecy.....

Outlaw

17th January 2008, 12:49 AM

Not a conspiracy... just the 'right' thing to do ;)

cockie55

17th January 2008, 01:05 AM

Not a conspiracy... just the 'right' thing to do ;)

....OK.....so where do I find the fine print that says... "you don't play it too hard with Detroits sonny and you won't need to put your rear axles and other stock bits in the dumpster"..???? :) :)

Blknight.aus

17th January 2008, 05:40 AM

that would be in the print thats in one of my emails from kieth at rovertracks that say

so long as you keep the tyre size under about 35 inches and dont push to hard you'll be right with the original shafts + cv's

I only read that email in a hurry but at this point I assume he means providing you have a sailsbury rear end

Chucaro

17th January 2008, 08:04 AM

When I read the original post in this thread I found it interesting, and because it is my intention in the future to fit a better diff in the Landy to have better traction, I have done some research on the subject.
After finding more information from international forums dedicated to expedition vehicles I arrived to the conclusion that the Truetrac front and back will be the system that will suit my style of driving.
My choice will not necessarily suit some other members due to different factors.
I am new in this forum and I was under the impression that any sharing of information and economical benefit will be appreciated by the other members. My nature is like this: share knowledge with others and learn from others as well.
During the last few days I did more research about where we can get the Diff (Detriot or Truetrac) cheaper than in the Oz market and also the best quote from overseas.
That is what I have done so far and shared this information with Blknight asking him to see if he can take over this issue because English is not my mother language therefore is not the best way for me to communicate.
He accepted my request and he invested his time as well for the benefit of others.
At my age I am not prepared to accept “smart” and or offensive comments from none and before this issue becomes very nasty I rather withdraw completely my involvement from the purchasing of the diffs and any overseas correspondence.
It will be up to the administrators or moderators of AULRO to find where are the “I think there's rats in the cupboard” and if this is a behavior acceptable in AURLO
Thanks to the members who have passed on very valuable information, which I gladly have taken and also to the members who appreciated my inputs.
Cheers
Chucaro

Diff

17th January 2008, 08:46 AM

If there may be an issue with customs with a bulk purchase could it be set up in a way where we can individually order the DL or TT directly and use a password or code to axcess the discount? it may cost the supplier a bit more in the dispatching which they will pass on to the purchaser but if it avoids additional charges it may be easier.

Thanks for all the leg work everyone has done.

Rob

Slunnie

17th January 2008, 09:27 AM

It will be up to the administrators or moderators of AULRO to find where are the “I think there's rats in the cupboard” and if this is a behavior acceptable in AURLO
When I read that comment I thought it had to do with a problem in the websites software, and was not directed at any person or any offence intended.

Also, in relation to the Detroit lockers and 35's, we have broken everything in rover drivetrains after the gearbox except a Salisbury diff, and most definately have broken every factory driveline part after the gearboxs using tyres that are less than 35". It only takes a slippery rut while locked to snap a CV or axle even if it is 24 spline or Sailisbury. From what I understand the Detroit locker is a hard and brittle locker, and a failed axle half shaft can shatter the locker. This has happened already with a friends 60 series Landcruiser and is apparently not uncommon with failed axles when using the detroit locker. What you do is your call, but just so that you're aware - and nobody expects to break an axle. I also don't believe this is a problem with the TT.

Chucaro

17th January 2008, 10:24 AM

Slunnie, I did not directed the message to you. Your inputs were technical and valuable.
Cheers

incisor

17th January 2008, 10:53 AM

Slunnie, I did not directed the message to you. Your inputs were technical and valuable.
Cheers
i too take "the rats in the cupboard" line as asking if the server is playing up or doing odd things...

cant see anything that could be construed as someone having a go at you old salt...

100I

17th January 2008, 12:41 PM

Hey Chucaro that expression was talking about server issues, not abusing anybody.

edit. see here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/49706-has-aulro-been-down.html might be related

Sheesh I've outdone myself eh, upsetting someone without trying or intending:eek:

rovercare

17th January 2008, 04:10 PM

When I read that comment I thought it had to do with a problem in the websites software, and was not directed at any person or any offence intended.

Also, in relation to the Detroit lockers and 35's, we have broken everything in rover drivetrains after the gearbox except a Salisbury diff, and most definately have broken every factory driveline part after the gearboxs using tyres that are less than 35". It only takes a slippery rut while locked to snap a CV or axle even if it is 24 spline or Sailisbury. From what I understand the Detroit locker is a hard and brittle locker, and a failed axle half shaft can shatter the locker. This has happened already with a friends 60 series Landcruiser and is apparently not uncommon with failed axles when using the detroit locker. What you do is your call, but just so that you're aware - and nobody expects to break an axle. I also don't believe this is a problem with the TT.

Keep in mind, that your jap axles are a heap better than the standard rover in material, and even is they're breaking the locker, its highely likely a broken maxi/mac/custom axle will pop, but I sincerely doubt the standard rover junk will, mate whohas had his detroit for years and broke a few standard 10 splines, never damaged the locker itself

Cap

17th January 2008, 04:20 PM

rovercare

17th January 2008, 04:24 PM

Whilst I appreciate comments on axel's etc etc breaking (stock stuff im talking about), I cant believe that they are that easy to break. Surely LR diffs arent made of butter, if so, my brothers old 2 door Rangie had 35's, detroit locker on the back, and he 'abused' that poor vehicle in deep ruts, rocky and muddy sections etc etc and never broke anything. He once broke a half shaft when he bent the track arm, forgot to take the CDL off and reversed back...

Is it just bad luck or do some people push their machinery way past design specs?

PS: This is not a slag on anyones driving, just wondering why the comments made.

Cheers

No, the standard 10 spline junk is just that........junk

The reason he broke an axle is they're crap, bending a track arm and not unlocking the CDL (unless on a hard surface) would have had nil-effect

So yea, made of butter, they're a diff designed for some rover crap car, and stuck in an RR, if you left 205's on you wouldn't have an issue

Cap

17th January 2008, 04:34 PM

hehe - then with my 33x12.5x15's I cant expect some breakage at some point?

When the time comes, ill put in some 24spline stuff. (more money!!) :D

PS: Yes he was on a rocky surface when it broke.

Cheers

rovercare

17th January 2008, 04:43 PM

hehe - then with my 33x12.5x15's I cant expect some breakage at some point?

Cheers

Yes;) breakage is imminent, unless you drive like a panzy:D

24 spline stuff is reasonably long lasting on 33's, but 10 spline junk don't cut the mustard

Slunnie

17th January 2008, 05:05 PM

Keep in mind, that your jap axles are a heap better than the standard rover in material, and even is they're breaking the locker, its highely likely a broken maxi/mac/custom axle will pop, but I sincerely doubt the standard rover junk will, mate whohas had his detroit for years and broke a few standard 10 splines, never damaged the locker itself
I've never heard of ARB/Maxi/JM breaking with a broken axle. The Rover axles may be weaker, but the hemisphere is also smaller.

rick130

17th January 2008, 05:30 PM

it's the design of the DD and the material they use that leads to them failing when you break an axle.
The ones from the sixties/seventies/eighties were pretty much indestructible.
And noisy, crude, harsh......

rovercare

17th January 2008, 05:41 PM

I've never heard of ARB/Maxi/JM breaking with a broken axle. The Rover axles may be weaker, but the hemisphere is also smaller.

Nah I meant a Detroit with Maxi/Mac/whatever axles:D

mark2

17th January 2008, 05:48 PM

i too take "the rats in the cupboard" line as asking if the server is playing up or doing odd things...

cant see anything that could be construed as someone having a go at you old salt...

Thats the way I interpreted it as well..........

rick130

17th January 2008, 05:48 PM

apparently one thing to be aware of with a DD on a slippery side slop is that it will tend to drive you down the slope. A selectable locker can be unlocked to stop/minimise this.

cockie55

17th January 2008, 06:05 PM

Yes I think Rovercare ("Yes breakage is imminent, unless you drive like a panzy") and Chucaro ("I arrived to the conclusion that the Truetrac front and back will be the system that will suit my style of driving") are probably on the money in so far as where I am at...... not being able to unlock a TT or DD to stop it kicking you down a slippery side slope as rick130 points out makes me think though....

Cap

17th January 2008, 06:25 PM

Yes;) breakage is imminent, unless you drive like a panzy:D

24 spline stuff is reasonably long lasting on 33's, but 10 spline junk don't cut the mustard

I better break stuff then, or else ill be paiting my Rangie pink and taking a purse with me :p

(edit - I just thought this comment may offend, no offence to pansies meant)

errr, hold on, I already smashed my lt77, but I guess they are weak too :(

rick130

17th January 2008, 06:42 PM

<snip>...... not being able to unlock a TT or DD to stop it kicking you down a slippery side slope as rick130 points out makes me think though....

I don't think you'd have a problem with a TT. They are basically an open diff until wheel spin starts to occur, then it starts to bias torque to the other axle, whereas a DD is 100% locked until the outside wheel starts to overspeed during a turn on a hard surface.

mark2

17th January 2008, 07:12 PM

I have had it drive the rear sideways in slippery conditions, but it was so slippery that I probably wouldnt have been proceeding with an open diff anyway. In other words, if you had a selectable locking diff, it would likely be selected.............

Slunnie

17th January 2008, 07:51 PM

apparently one thing to be aware of with a DD on a slippery side slop is that it will tend to drive you down the slope. A selectable locker can be unlocked to stop/minimise this.
and also coming up angled steps when the rears spin up. The TT probably would be good, like ETC is as it will give you drive but not enough to allow both fronts to spin which is when you lose you lateral traction. Personally I would not use a permanent locker in the front for this reason... and I also prefer not to have it in the panel beaters.... again...:(

Rosscoe68

17th January 2008, 08:14 PM

lokka

17th January 2008, 08:18 PM

Slunnie

17th January 2008, 08:22 PM

I would first be fitting a CDL or something to lock the CDL before anything else.

Rosscoe68

17th January 2008, 08:28 PM

so from my understanding, to fit a cdl i need to either swap the entire transfer box, or disassemble my transfer box and ut in the components from a donor transfer box with the cdl internals. either way is a relatively expensive option for me as i dont have the facilities any more to be removing the transfer box myself, so will need to purchase the bits and then get it done. am i missing anything in there ?

mark2

17th January 2008, 09:19 PM

can anyone tell me if its worth investing in rear lsd if i have a D2 that has no centre lockable diff ?

i am having trouble tracking down an affordable option for a centre cdl so was considering this, but dont know if it will work ?

My Detroit rear doesnt do much when the CDL isnt locked.(I dont have traction control) The CD will still transfer drive to the axle with least traction (front). So yes I would suggest looking into getting the CDL fitted/working first. However, traction control is a variable that may change the above observation which I cant really comment on.

cockie55

17th January 2008, 10:02 PM

I don't think you'd have a problem with a TT. They are basically an open diff until wheel spin starts to occur, then it starts to bias torque to the other axle, whereas a DD is 100% locked until the outside wheel starts to overspeed during a turn on a hard surface.

Thanks Rick130 your right...wrong of me to bracket a LSD/TT in same bracket as a DD being a auto "unlocker"...

and easy to forget when worried about situations where a auto DD could hook you sidesways on a slippery side slope ...then as mark2 says if it was so slippery there you would have already switched a select 100% locker on anyway.

I am starting feel my original TT front and rear decision is still good to go for my circumstances thanks to the first class commentary provided on this thread by everyone

rovercare

17th January 2008, 10:08 PM

Thanks Rick130 your right...wrong of me to bracket a LSD/TT in same bracket as a DD being a auto "unlocker"...

and easy to forget when worried about situations where a auto DD could hook you sidesways on a slippery side slope ...then as mark2 says if it was so slippery there you would have already switched a select 100% locker on anyway.

I am starting feel my original TT front and rear decision is still good to go for my circumstances thanks to the first class commentary provided on this thread by everyone

Yes and No, you'll find when you really get used to selectable lockers and get over the lock 'em in everywhere, you actually use them alot less, as they can cause more drama's than they get you through sometimes, I find myself using the front alone quite a bit to:eek:

But that's only playing in the crap, if you just general touring and want a bit of an edge/confidence, you'll be fine with whatever you put in:)

cockie55

17th January 2008, 10:52 PM

rovercare interesting thing you say about selectable lockers that you find yourself using the front alone in crap first up. Presumably you do this to be a bit kinder to the drivetrain and a 1 lock first only until it ain't and need 2 philosophy.

If I was going to put 1 X Truetrac in and maybe wait a bit and consider a LS/ TT, or a auto/Detoit or 100% select locker later ..then I would put that initial 1X Truetrac in the rear and leave the front diff open. That would either be good for life with benefit of open diff steering and if not I would simply swap the rear Truetrac into the front and do the next diff stage upgrade what ever that may be in the rear.

Your front lock alone philosophy makes me think that (bearing in mind I have a D1 100% 4WD with CDL and will never put hubs in to support a front auto/ detroit) that I might as well put that 1XTruetrac in the front from the start, particularly as everyone swears by their on road manners.

rovercare

17th January 2008, 11:05 PM

I don't engage front first all the time, just sometimes, situation dependant, climbing over logs you need the front in and having the rear out pulls the front over and tend not to do big sideways slides, their is no set rule and I definately don't do it to be kind to my stuff:angel:

No matter what you do you'll find someone with a different arguement, either way, your gonna be happy:D

mark2

17th January 2008, 11:12 PM

Yes and No, you'll find when you really get used to selectable lockers and get over the lock 'em in everywhere, you actually use them alot less, as they can cause more drama's than they get you through sometimes, I find myself using the front alone quite a bit to:eek:

But that's only playing in the crap, if you just general touring and want a bit of an edge/confidence, you'll be fine with whatever you put in:)

Agree. If money was not an issue, I would have gone for a selectable locker in the rear for that extra bit of control in some circumstances. However for about 1/3 the price, I am more than happy.

rovercare

17th January 2008, 11:16 PM

Agree. If money was not an issue, I would have gone for a selectable locker in the rear for that extra bit of control in some circumstances. However for about 1/3 the price, I am more than happy.

Hey If blknight actually pulls off this group buy, I'll stick a Detroit in the rear of my 120" work hack:D, will stick an air locker in the front though, got some sitting in a wreck, not sure whether to sell both or put one in...........

cockie55

17th January 2008, 11:28 PM

Thanks guys....what if I have a hypothetical pu.sy whip scenario of SWMBO saying "OK you want a diff upgrade....then rules are you do one diff at a time and starting with a cheap self install (so LSD/TT) and no guarantee you ever get the second diff". Fellows do I put that Truetrac in the front or rear (if rear then swap TT to front if 2nd diff upgrade ever happens)

rovercare

17th January 2008, 11:29 PM

cockie55

17th January 2008, 11:35 PM

Rear:)

Hypothetical, Is that like "my mate needs some advice":D

Ta rovercare..."rear" first up it is...Bigjon has a TT rear only and he very happy with it in loose soft stuff albeit he looking to put a 2nd TT in the front..

Slunnie

18th January 2008, 12:02 AM

Fellows do I put that Truetrac in the front or rear (if rear then swap TT to front if 2nd diff upgrade ever happens)
I think there was some text previously that indicated the TT was geared or setup differently between fronts and back.

cockie55

18th January 2008, 12:30 AM

I think there was some text previously that indicated the TT was geared or setup differently between fronts and back.

Yes different set up thanks Slunnie but flipping TT's rear and front is easy...see discoweb.org -- (http://www.discoweb.org/) then click "tech" and then "trutrac gears"

cockie55

18th January 2008, 09:44 PM

Found this an interesting read particularly post #18 and #21 from "revor" aka Keith at Rovertracks about drivetrain stresses

School me on Tru-Tracks - Land Rover Repair Forums - LRRForums.com (http://www.lrrforums.com/showthread.php't=2542)

rick130

19th January 2008, 01:58 PM

cockie, this discussion re breakages with Tru Trac's was on Pirate a long time ago (Keith was one of the contributors) and IIRC, most of the problems were caused by blokes lifting wheels and then left foot braking to transfer the torque to the other axle.
Remember, a torque biasing diff won't work if there isn't a tiny amount of traction/friction on the unloaded wheel/axle.

rick130

19th January 2008, 02:36 PM

interesting comments from 'Disco Mike' in the last page of that link that confirms a few comments above.......

Living in Colorado, I have come to really like using my CDL and front T.T. in the snow both on and off the road. In town, as the picture below shows, we can get a lot of snow like last year when we had a total of nearly 6 feet of snow over October and November and the T.T sure helps pull you out of a side ways slide while turning.
The only complaint I have with my truck off the road in deep snow is my rear Detroit which really likes to crab walk when climbing and off camber. Not being able to shut it off causes me some grief in the snow, but it does make up for those times by getting me everywhere I want to go the rest of the year.

cockie55

21st January 2008, 10:58 PM

After starting this thread and now with the benefit 5 star member comments and opinion I have with confidence chosen to fit a Truetrac as a drop-in replacement for my factory D1’s traction compromised as well as weak rear open differential set-up.

Truetrac (as opposed to a locker) was chosen as it suits my driving conditions and style, there is no ring gear or third member type mods so I can instal it myself and then day to day no more maintenance than my factory D1 diff. With this approach I can also swap Truetrac (being a LSD not a auto locker) to the front diff one day and install a rear auto or on demand locker .;);)

Like most things in life once you friggen start something…well in this case that led me to think that a man would be pretty stupid to reinstall worn factory carrier bearings from the old open differential…so replacement there is a no brainer…..then maybe I should not stop just there?????

....then I started thinking about while I am down here ……..that goosy looking rotoflex 3X bolt pinion flange thingo has got to go (it looks crook just looking at it) even though everything down there like the rubber coupling material in this thing, A frame etc etc included are all in good nic.

Am I in preparation for my Truetrac rear diff upgrade???

A. Being far too anal and going too far looking to replace my stock D1 rotoflex 3 X bolt driveshaft with say a later model stock LR rear driveshaft and stock 4-bolt pinion flange with a U joint???? ; OR

B. Not going far enough so forget about using any stock LR driveshaft and instal a CUSTOM driveshaft / inc U Joints ????

Thanking you in anticipation:p:p

Blknight.aus

21st January 2008, 11:22 PM

nope its a sound mod to do...

theres a myrad of benifits to be had from either but..

since your going for a more capable offroad vehicle Id suggest the Uj setup at both ends

since youve got to drop the shaft to change the diff bits you might as well undo the extra 4 bolts and replace the shaft and the bolt that holds the donut holder and replace that bit too..

(ok theres a little more in it that that but thats pretty close.

cockie55

21st January 2008, 11:37 PM

Chucaro

22nd January 2008, 05:52 AM

Thanks Dave..as usual your sound advice is appreciated ....I am now moving north along driveline...I can see a transfer case hitting the deck pretty soon LOL LOL

Stop there mate :eek: Other ways the Landy is going to be like a boat..a hole in the back pocket :D
I guess that all depends how hard 4WD you are going to do.;)
A Land Rover is a very capable vehicle in own right. Gining it assistance with a Truetrac it is an excellent idea but the rest........
I am thinking in the Truetrac at the back, tune the pump to give that little more torque, silicone houses and in the future go to 31 or 32 inch tyres.
A diff protectors are in my list but have to find a good one :(
The rotoflex I will use it as a "fuse" component" and have one spare just in case.
Cheers
PS: second semester 2008 is the front Truetrac on the list? :angel::D

cockie55

22nd January 2008, 06:43 AM

Chucaro

22nd January 2008, 07:14 AM

Chucaro that interesting point yo say about using rotoflex as a "fuse" component".....maybe I am being a bit critical of it and it could be useful left "as is"or whether a stock axle in good condition would give way first????

This is just my humble opinion, you how it is 1000 LR owners = 1000 different opinions.
If you are not going to use your rig for extreme 4WD like rock claiming, etc and just do a technical drive, then the package for me is Truetrac @ both ends and leave the rotoflex as a fuse component to not transmit the vibrations to the other components.
If you intent to do "rock work" then I will fit Detroit lockers at the back with the shafts that Keith makes and Truterac at the front. Then then perhaps I will fit a universal replacing the rotoflex.
Without being my intention to criticize the others style of driving, I prefer driving with the capabilities of the vehicle and try to come back to base in good nick.
Other people like extreme 4WD and with their experience they are the ones that can help you with the setting up for their type of driving or sport
Just remember that when you submit a machine to a extreme work, sooner or later something it is going to give.
In the middle of the bush, what you prefer to replace? a rotoflex or a shaft as a fuse components or a transfer case o diff.? Take your pick ;)
Hope that my way of thinking helps :)

Graeme

22nd January 2008, 05:36 PM

A. Being far too anal and going too far looking to replace my stock D1 rotoflex 3 X bolt driveshaft with say a later model stock LR rear driveshaft and stock 4-bolt pinion flange with a U joint???? ;
The D2 used the rubber coupling too - not a UJ.

cockie55

22nd January 2008, 08:06 PM

The D2 used the rubber coupling too - not a UJ.

Thanks Graeme ...that makes it a little bit more of hassle no doubt

Chucaro

22nd January 2008, 08:14 PM

Thanks Graeme ...that makes it a little bit more of hassle no doubt
It is this what you are looking for?:
Paginaselezionefinale (http://www.equipe4x4.com/inglese/ARTICOLO.php?MARCA=LAND&SEZ=TRANSMISSIONS&COD=A)

p38arover

22nd January 2008, 08:40 PM

Remember, a torque biasing diff won't work if there isn't a tiny amount of traction/friction on the unloaded wheel/axle.

So if one lifts a wheel, there will still be no drive to the wheel that's on the ground if one has a TT?

I was wondering if there are lockers or TTs for the P38A. I think ARB make an air locker but that's a bit exxy.

My P38A is the early model with TC (and 4-pin diff) on the rear only (front diff is 2-pin).

Blknight.aus

22nd January 2008, 09:35 PM

So if one lifts a wheel, there will still be no drive to the wheel that's on the ground if one has a TT?

I was wondering if there are lockers or TTs for the P38A. I think ARB make an air locker but that's a bit exxy.

My P38A is the early model with TC (and 4-pin diff) on the rear only (front diff is 2-pin).

correct...

the way they work (in laymans terms) is that if one wheel is spinning and providing x amount of resistance then that amount of resistance is mulitplied by the biasing ratio of the diff. now stop there... hold than new mulitplied number in your head.

that number now becomes the resistance to drive that the "normal" part of the diff sees at that wheel and so an appropriate amount of driving force is applied to the opposite wheel.

in part this is why the touching the brakes thing works quite well with them.

Thats not how it actually happens but thats a rough summary of the end effect.

Its smoother with fewer moving parts than the fingers and cams with followers inside another cam setup thats in some logging truckst but not as strong as them but the logging ones are a shed load bigger (not your little garden shed Im talking your big industrial parks 3 road trains and a piggery type sheds) and heavier. but the finger an cam setup can divert up to 75% of the torque to the wheel with the grip.

130 major

24th January 2008, 02:39 PM

I got my Detroit Soft locker from LDS after checking the price through the local TJM store here in Darwin only to find the price was almost double, even after telling TJM how much i was quoted by Locked Drive Systems, they still would not budge on their price, so 4 days later a package arrived in the mail from LDS, and after a couple of hours the back end of my 130 was locked and ready, This has made a marked difference off road, but the backlash is noticable on road, on the upside it has made me a more carefull driver, slow and steady clutch movements.

p38arover

24th January 2008, 02:42 PM

correct...

the way they work (in laymans terms) is that if one wheel is spinning and providing x amount of resistance then that amount of resistance is mulitplied by the biasing ratio of the diff. now stop there... hold than new mulitplied number in your head..

Thanks Dave.

Now can I get one for the P38A?

rick130

24th January 2008, 07:32 PM

Thanks Dave.

Now can I get one for the P38A?

I'm guessing a Tru-trac and TC will get you 95% of the way a fully locked rear end would go in the most extreme situations.

p38arover

24th January 2008, 07:35 PM

I'm guessing a Tru-trac and TC will get you 95% of the way a fully locked rear end would go in the most extreme situations.

To be honest, an open diff and ETC gets me everywhere I go! :D

I've had the ETC work a few times off road on slippery stuff.

rick130

24th January 2008, 09:02 PM

BTW, has anyone with a Sals seen the Electrac ?
It's a Tru-trac with an electric solenoid activated locker.
The best of both worlds.

A Dana 60 Electrac, some 30 spline axles from Jac Mac and you're away :cool:

Blknight.aus

24th January 2008, 09:44 PM

let me get this straight....

you want something thats going to help you get throuh all kinds of sloppy sticky wet stuff.:D

you want to put it on something thats descended from lucas electrics (if it doesnt still acutally have lucas electrics in it):(

and this device that your going to put in to help you through all the wet mucky stuff in a lucas powered vehicle is going to be connected to the vehicles electrics...........:o

like tempting fate dontcha.... :no2:

yeah Ive seen em and they're great as long as you do the electric side of business right.

rick130

27th January 2008, 01:55 PM

Blknight.aus

27th January 2008, 03:06 PM

Shush, you shall jinx her..... she hasnt missed a beat yet...

In related news......

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/50354-rovers-wont-let-you-down.html#post678381
;)