Swivel bearings for lighter steering

[Panda]

Have SEVERE swivel housing leak on driver's side (I'm talking pools of oil). Worried about too much oil being lost from the diff so, after our numerous attemps to rectify, have put it in to have my Landie expert see if he can come up with a solution. (Also owing to the fact my better half has decided to trek half way across the world & want her fit for Easter!).

As an aside, he recommended bearings which they have custom made which apparently make the steering a lot lighter. Don't know if it's fitting to mention the garage or not, however, they are a very reputable Land Rover/four wheel drive specialist. They're not that expensive so have decided to buy them.

Just wondering if anyone's had any experience with these, as I had never heard of them before.

Thanks.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Have heard of someone machining the housing to put a 0 degree camber on the stub axles for radial tyres but not bearings that do the same.

Diana

[JDNSW]

Never heard of them - wheel bearings would not affect the steering load, so I suppose we are talking about swivel bearings. Replacing the top swivel bush with a taper roller bearing would lighten the steering but is likely to lead to wheel shimmy unless everything else is spot on. And I doubt it would lighten it all that much anyway, as you still have the deliberate friction in the relay. (in fact I think I would prefer to reduce friction there rather than the kingpin anyway)

Severe swivel housing leak suggests one or more of :-

1. Swivel bush worn allowing seal to move away from the ball
2. Ball pitted
3. Seal worn
4. Seal leaking between the outside of it and the housing either loose or poor installation or damaged retainer)

But wheel bearings are not a cause.

John

[Panda]

Sorry John, swivel bearings would be the ones, not wheel bearings as I previously said. I thought they were one & the same.:angel:

I'm showing my ignorance here, so appreciate the advice. Could you explain the "wheel shimmy" and "friction in relay" in layman's terms?

Thanks



Never heard of them - wheel bearings would not affect the steering load, so I suppose we are talking about swivel bearings. Replacing the top swivel bush with a taper roller bearing would lighten the steering but is likely to lead to wheel shimmy unless everything else is spot on. And I doubt it would lighten it all that much anyway, as you still have the deliberate friction in the relay. (in fact I think I would prefer to reduce friction there rather than the kingpin anyway)

Severe swivel housing leak suggests one or more of :-

1. Swivel bush worn allowing seal to move away from the ball
2. Ball pitted
3. Seal worn
4. Seal leaking between the outside of it and the housing either loose or poor installation or damaged retainer)

But wheel bearings are not a cause.

John

[JDNSW]

Sorry John, swivel bearings would be the ones, not wheel bearings as I previously said. I thought they were one & the same.:angel:

I'm showing my ignorance here, so appreciate the advice. Could you explain the "wheel shimmy" and "friction in relay" in layman's terms?

Thanks

Wheel Shimmy. This is the tendency for steering to shake from side to side several times after hitting a bump. If very bad, it can come on without a bump, suddenly at a particular speed. It can vary from slightly annoying to dangerous. It is caused when steering deflection allowed by free play or flex is opposed by the caster action of the steering, and this action overshoots and then operates in the opposite direction.
Although initiated by slight wheel imbalance and allowed by free play in the steering, it is prevented by damping. This is provided at three points in the steering system; At the swivels, at the relay unit, and by the steering damper (which was optional on all series Landrovers although fitted to all S3s I have seen). At the swivel, damping is provided by friction from the seal on the ball and by the use of a fibre bush and thrust washer on the top swivel bearing (the vehicle weight is carried on the bottom bearing). Shimmy is more likely with changes to steering geometry such as moving the tyre centre out by fitting wider tyres, or by raising the suspension, or by sagged springs, or with any reduction in the original damping. Wheel shimmy was common with leaf spring and beam axles from the start of motoring, and was commonly remedied by adjusting the caster angle with wedges. The advantage of the damping right at the swivel bearings is that it is before any possible free play or flex (for example any wear in the drag link ends, sideways flex in the springs or bushes, and as far as the steering damper is concerned, flex or wear in its bushes).

Friction in relay. The steering relay is the pivot that changes fore and aft movement (of the steering rod connected to the steering box) into crossways movement. It comprises a vertical shaft which is held in two fibre bushes on tapered journals, held apart by a powerful spring, ensuring constant friction and freedom from free play. Except in cases of extreme wear this provides the major friction in the steering.

Hope this helps,

John

[Bigbjorn]

the steering damper (which was optional on all series Landrovers although fitted to all S3s I have seen

John

My Series III Salesman's Manual says the steering damper was standard equipment on the 109 One Ton, optional equipment in the home market, and fitted as standard equipment in many export territories. Was standard equipment on all Australian assembled Series III.

Interestingly, the SeriesIII 109 cab and chassis with dropside body, and 109 Truck Cab and Hardtops were sold here as having a carrying capacity of one ton, not one tonne, which qualified them for sale to primary producers sales tax exempt. A carrying capacity "in excess of one tonne" was part of the requirement. Other requirements were no more than three seats in one row, and not more than two doors. The vehicle was required to be "primarily of design and construction as a goods carrying vehicle". There were other (financial) requirements checked by the tax office when the buyer lodged an application for exemption.

[Panda]

Thanks for that John, that was extremely interesting & helpful. Don't suppose you were thinking of having a "technical Series day" out your way, maybe over a long weekend?? One day technical, one day driving & one day recoverying & repairing?;):D If you ever do, count me in!;)


Wheel Shimmy. This is the tendency for steering to shake from side to side several times after hitting a bump. If very bad, it can come on without a bump, suddenly at a particular speed. It can vary from slightly annoying to dangerous. It is caused when steering deflection allowed by free play or flex is opposed by the caster action of the steering, and this action overshoots and then operates in the opposite direction.
Although initiated by slight wheel imbalance and allowed by free play in the steering, it is prevented by damping. This is provided at three points in the steering system; At the swivels, at the relay unit, and by the steering damper (which was optional on all series Landrovers although fitted to all S3s I have seen). At the swivel, damping is provided by friction from the seal on the ball and by the use of a fibre bush and thrust washer on the top swivel bearing (the vehicle weight is carried on the bottom bearing). Shimmy is more likely with changes to steering geometry such as moving the tyre centre out by fitting wider tyres, or by raising the suspension, or by sagged springs, or with any reduction in the original damping. Wheel shimmy was common with leaf spring and beam axles from the start of motoring, and was commonly remedied by adjusting the caster angle with wedges. The advantage of the damping right at the swivel bearings is that it is before any possible free play or flex (for example any wear in the drag link ends, sideways flex in the springs or bushes, and as far as the steering damper is concerned, flex or wear in its bushes).

Friction in relay. The steering relay is the pivot that changes fore and aft movement (of the steering rod connected to the steering box) into crossways movement. It comprises a vertical shaft which is held in two fibre bushes on tapered journals, held apart by a powerful spring, ensuring constant friction and freedom from free play. Except in cases of extreme wear this provides the major friction in the steering.

Hope this helps,

John

[isuzurover]

I know a few people in the Brisbane LR club who did the same conversion - without any wheel shimmy problems.

IMHO though, I think the bush spreads the load better. You often find that the bottom bearing has brinnelled/pitted from sitting in the straight ahead position most of the time...

[p38arover]

Thanks for that John, that was extremely interesting & helpful. Don't suppose you were thinking of having a "technical Series day" out your way, maybe over a long weekend?? One day technical, one day driving & one day recoverying & repairing?;):D If you ever do, count me in!;)

Umm, do you know the dress code for John's property? :angel:

[Panda]

ummm, no. Should it be something I should know?:o
Does he dress in aluminium panels & camo soft tops made for dual purpose, with an inverted headlight as a hat?:eek: And maybe a stubb axle as a septre?

Perhaps we need some pics, pics, pics!


Umm, do you know the dress code for John's property? :angel:

[Panda]

Well that's okay, we could have a fancy dress weekend away!:Rolling: I'm sure we could all come in a Land Rover theme:D

[LandyAndy]

Back to the oil leak!!!!
My bet,blocked diff breather,oil forced thru axle seal into swivel housing.These leak like sieves on a good landy!!!
So my fix,clean the breather,re-fill the diff.
Swivels,drain the oil,re-fill with Penrite semi-fluid grease.
See how it goes.A cheap try,the semi fluid wont leak as easily then go into the other mods!!!
PS,its the go for the steering box,once you have Semi-Fluid in there it wont dribble out the bottom like EP90 does.
Stiff steering could well be a stuffed steering relay,put a new one in one before,MAGIC!!!!,from memory less than $100 for a newie!!!!
GOODLUCK!!!!
Andrew

[p38arover]

ummm, no. Should it be something I should know?:o
Does he dress in aluminium panels & camo soft tops made for dual purpose, with an inverted headlight as a hat?:eek: And maybe a stubb axle as a septre?

Perhaps we need some pics, pics, pics!

See http://www.aulro.com/afvb/parking-lot/32245-any-other-nudists.html

[UncleHo]

G'day Lotz-A-Landies:)

Machineing the swivels to give King Pin inclination :eek: Oh Dear! (Swivel Inclination is 7*)

What it is for Radial tyres is 0* TOE-IN, as I have the service notification for it issued by by George Heirdsfield (Service Manager Annand & Thompson P/Ltd) service letter 6/65 issued 11 March 1965
swivel pin inclination is what affects steering weight and tracking stability, I have only recently had to correct the error made by a Land Rover "Expert" who had set the swivel assy pre-load for a Series 3 at 30lbs(pounds) [this is Coil Sprung Pre-Load] when checked with a scale
re-did the pre-load with shims and he was amazed as to how different it steered, and that the wheel actulaly self-centred after turning a corner:)


cheers

[Lotz-A-Landies]

G'day Lotz-A-Landies:)

Machineing the swivels to give King Pin inclination :eek: Oh Dear! (Swivel Inclination is 7*)

What it is for Radial tyres is 0* TOE-IN, as I have the service notification for it issued by by George Heirdsfield (Service Manager Annand & Thompson P/Ltd) service letter 6/65 issued 11 March 1965
swivel pin inclination is what affects steering weight and tracking stability, I have only recently had to correct the error made by a Land Rover "Expert" who had set the swivel assy pre-load for a Series 3 at 30lbs(pounds) [this is Coil Sprung Pre-Load] when checked with a scale
re-did the pre-load with shims and he was amazed as to how different it steered, and that the wheel actulaly self-centred after turning a corner:)


cheers

No actually machined the face of the swivel housing where the stub axle bolts on. Now very light in the steering and yes self centres.

The only issue is the slight misalignment of the bolts that hold the two parts together.

Diana

[UncleHo]

G'day Lotz-A-Landies :)

Sorry, I misinterperted your post, and read it as Zero Castor and not Zero Camber:oops2: that would not change the steering weight, but would change the wear pattern on the tyres, not sure how it would affect the rest of the steering over the long term.

cheers

[Lotz-A-Landies]

G'day Lotz-A-Landies :)

Sorry, I misinterperted your post, and read it as Zero Castor and not Zero Camber:oops2: that would not change the steering weight, but would change the wear pattern on the tyres, not sure how it would affect the rest of the steering over the long term.

cheers
Radial tyres are designed for 0 deg camber and otherwise, as we know, get uneven wear on the front of a series Landy.

The result of the mod would make it the same as the Range Rover etc which have a 0 deg camber design from the factory.

Diana

[isuzurover]

Perhaps we need some pics, pics, pics!

We DEFINITELY don't need pics!!! :eek::eek::eek::o:o:o:D:p

Back on topic - Diana - the tyres on my IIA have always worn evenly on the front. But I run 0deg toe in/out - btw - thanks UncleHo - didn't know that was a LR reccommendation. A old wheel aligner told me that was the best setting many years ago - thought it was strange, but seemed to work so I stuck with it.

[Panda]

Yep! You're right, definitely don't need pics!:o We have some neighbours (actually 2 lots) a few houses down & they're all into this nudity lark. Quite funny to hear them talk about it. Apparently, you get some "******" nudists too. Sometimes they get trim, taut & terrific nudists who think they're Adonis' & have their members adorned with all kinds of jewellery! Not my cup of tea!!!:wasntme: Furthermore, when the jewellery suitably adorned catches your eye, it makes it very hard to look elsewhere! (So I've been told!)


We DEFINITELY don't need pics!!! :eek::eek::eek::o:o:o:D:p

Back on topic - Diana - the tyres on my IIA have always worn evenly on the front. But I run 0deg toe in/out - btw - thanks UncleHo - didn't know that was a LR reccommendation. A old wheel aligner told me that was the best setting many years ago - thought it was strange, but seemed to work so I stuck with it.

[Panda]

Back to the leaking swivel housing. Spoke to my mechanic, & he said the reason it's leaking so badly, is because the axle is severely bent & twisted. Reckons it was lucky didn't go four wheeling before it was found, otherwise surely would have broken!:( Hopefully won't be too many dollars to repair. He's going to replace the axle with a mean **** army one that should be sturdy. He's going to check the passenger side one today, hopefully that's okay (though probably not:()

Apart from that, the rear brakes are shot, but I'll worry about that later. Can't afford $500.00 or whatever to fix them, so think I'll get a list of the parts & have a go doing it myself (with some assistance).

Can't wait to get in the bush!:arms::arms:

[JDNSW]

Thanks for that John, that was extremely interesting & helpful. Don't suppose you were thinking of having a "technical Series day" out your way, maybe over a long weekend?? One day technical, one day driving & one day recoverying & repairing?;):D If you ever do, count me in!;)

I hadn't thought of organising anything like that - we are quite a long way from most people. No real need for any special driving day - do enough of that just getting in here, particularly if there has been a bit of rain!

But visitors are always welcome, just arrange ahead of time to make sure I'll be here.

John

[Dave_S]

I know a few people in the Brisbane LR club who did the same conversion - without any wheel shimmy problems.

IMHO though, I think the bush spreads the load better. You often find that the bottom bearing has brinnelled/pitted from sitting in the straight ahead position most of the time...

I fitted bearings in place of the bushes when I rebuilt the front end on my Series III LWB years ago. As I recall we had to machine the top swivel pins slightly to fit inside the roller bearings. It worked well and I drove it about 25,000 km with no sign of shimmy etc before I sold it. That included everything from freeway driving to severe corrugations.

[JDNSW]

I fitted bearings in place of the bushes when I rebuilt the front end on my Series III LWB years ago. As I recall we had to machine the top swivel pins slightly to fit inside the roller bearings. It worked well and I drove it about 25,000 km with no sign of shimmy etc before I sold it. That included everything from freeway driving to severe corrugations.

Should work OK provided there are no steering problems such as incorrect castor due to sagged springs etc and no free play between the swivel and the relay/steering damper. I would expect an insignificant change in ease of steering, and an increase in the amount of kickback off road.

The main advantage of the roller bearing would be that it is less sensitive to lack of lubrication resulting from the use of free wheel hubs (or the use of grease in the swivel), and is probably longer lasting anyway, even with good lubrication.

Of course, if the swivel bushes needed replacing anyway, the new top bearing would have shown a marked improvement - which would have happened anyway with new bushes.

John

[Panda]

Well I reckon it would be a top weekend. (As long as you keep your clothes on in the presence of moi!)

Anyone else interested? We could make a great weekend of it?


I hadn't thought of organising anything like that - we are quite a long way from most people. No real need for any special driving day - do enough of that just getting in here, particularly if there has been a bit of rain!

But visitors are always welcome, just arrange ahead of time to make sure I'll be here.

John