please be nice... patrol vs disco

[simonr23]

My brother is thinking of getting a 4wd. he had a swb mq a few years ago, and after a few day trips with me in the disco, he wants to get back into a 4x4 again.

so far it looks like it'll be either a 96-98 disco 300tdi, or similar year-range patrol 2.8td. really its about spending upto $12k.

obviously i'm biased towards the disco's. his initial want is the patrol. just because he had the mq and it served him well.

i dont have alot of knowledge on either vehicle. from whati've read on here, the 300tdi's are looked on favourably, so far i havent been able to find alot of useful info on the patrol.

he's not one to do alot of maintainence until it "needs" it, besides basic servicing. which car do u think would be the better choice? if the disco, is the auto trans a goodun'? most that ive seen advertised are auto's. not sure if its because they are popular and good, or if its becasue they are tired/worn/about to die and so are being sold.

he's in the barossa, so his driving is country, open roads and probably several trips a week that are only 10min jobbies to the shops and whatnot. he wont be towing, will be doing some easy-medium off-roading, but just local, something to do, type driving on friends property and rutted tracks.

thanks for any tips.

[Blknight.aus]

IMHO the autos are a mixed bag but thats common to pretty much every second hand vehicle you purchase.

The engines are of about the similar vintage and tech so thats much of a much ness for longevity

The discos body and chassis generally lasts longer than most vehicles of its vintage and its a fair whack better on fuel if well tuned.

The patrols are a little more comfortable in the back

Stock discos do better as all rounders and the patrols tend to have it over them on black top and the beach but arent as well behaved on the rocks/gravel + mud. Thats just from my observations and could be skewed by individual driver skills in those areas.

So far as I can tell theres more accessories and mods for the patrol for customising it to what you need it to do but then for most people the disco is all that anyway its just the shiney paintwork and the carpet that stops people from making it do what it can.

[29dinosaur]

A 97-98 auto 300tdi disco that's been well looked after is the way to go. I sold manual recently for $10k (should have got more but needed $ asap) Must have full service history as to time belt changes and oils etc ... then get it checked by someone who knows discos. Get your brother to have a water coolant alarm fitted and away he goes. Good luck. A patrol at that price will have double to kms. Should be able to get disco with 150-200k kms that is running nicely.

[simonr23]

cheers guys. with the auto's, do they wear out gradually, or just one day let go/have sporadic moments of good and then others of crap? i have enough mechanical knowledge to feel a slipping trans, too-harsh up/down shifts, and trying to crawl forwards at idle while on the brakes.

[p38arover]

On road, in my view having driven both, the old Disco is a far superior driver's car. It is more comfortable over rough roads (including bitumen). This applies to the GQ and GU. I've driven very late model Patrols and they are rough in comparison (especially in comparison to my RR :D )

The Patrol dhe drivetrain (in 4.2 guise) is very strong. The smaller diesels have, I believe, a lighter gearbox. Diffs in all models are strong and the diff of choice for LR upgrades.

A 300Tdi is very easy to maintain, especially one without the electronic gizmos like ABS and SRS. The Patrol might need less maintenance :)

I think the Disco has a far better driving position. I know my sister was surprised when she first drove my '87 RR - it was, in her opinion, much easier to see out of and more comfortable than their GQ Patrol.

The Patrol is bigger if he needs to carry a load.

The ZF auto in the Disco (and Rangie) is very reliable.

[Blknight.aus]

they do both...

if they are just wearing out and have been well serviced they will give you advance warning and start doing things like putting little metal flags in the oil and filter in the correct semophoric positions to spell out "I am not healthy please send me to an automatic repair shop before I have a terminal heart attack"

Others that have been overstressed, onderserviced, over watered, over heated and underloved will just one day get upset and decide to take revenge, this usually occours at some preordained point in time and space that will cause maximum cost, embarrasment, risk, inconvenience and frustration.

the auto in the disco can with even the most mediocre care and maintenance make 200K km.

[p38arover]

the auto in the disco can with even the most mediocre care and maintenance make 200K km.

Shssshhh! I had nearly 400,000 on my '87 RR when it was sold. And that ZF was behind a 4.6 when it had only been designed for a 3.5 litre.

I used to stick the boot in, too.

[rovercare]

he's not one to do alot of maintainence until it "needs" it, besides basic servicing. which car do u think would be the better choice? .

By an RD28 GQ, Not GU, don't even think bout a ZD30 GU either;)

[Blknight.aus]

Shssshhh! I had nearly 400,000 on my '87 RR when it was sold. And that ZF was behind a 4.6 when it had only been designed for a 3.5 litre.

I used to stick the boot in, too.

bet it got serviced properly tho...

[abaddonxi]

Why just the other day there was a post on just that subject, and here's a permalink (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/55919-so-im-thinking-buyin-defender.html#post737299) to the post!



Naa, they come pre-equipped with all the rattles and squeaks, saves you getting the poos when it happens further down the track......


Seriously, we have a GU Patrol (ute) and a Defender, so I'm possibly qualified to comment.

Build quality of the Land Rover is crap compared to the Japanese vehicles.
Simple basics like fit and finish are non existent on a Defender. If fit, finish, etc. are important to you, look elswhere.
Silly little niggly things fail, like door handle buttons, screws drop out, etc.

the boys above have touched on the engines. The 300Tdi goes fine once the turbo is spooled, but is a bit doughy off idle. Fuel economy is excellent. They are simple little engines and easy to service and maintain. The only major maintenance is timing belts every 80,000km and clutches last around 200-220,000km. Plates themselves don't seem to wear if the driver is doing his job, but the fingers on the pressure plate, and the clutch fork itself usually fail at around this mileage.
It is a relatively simple job to 'tickle' up the injector pump fuelling to give the Tdi better oomph than the Patrol TD42T yet still return better fuel economy.

On standard type tyres (235/85/16's) the driveline reliability is fine, although the front diff and g/box aren't as strong as a Patrol, the older model Salisbury diff (pre '03) would have the strongest centre of any 4x4 on the market, barring maybe the H260 in leaf sprung rear Patrols.

Axle flanges can be a problem with fretting in post '94 Defenders, as the axles are two piece (separate axle and drive flange) It's a relatively easy fix to convert the hubs to the older style oil lubricated wheel bearings (semi trailers use this style of lubrication too) and this fixes the problem, along with some Hy-Tough axles and flanges (formerly Maxi Drive)

33" tyres fit without a lift, I've been running 255/85's for years, and these are supposedly 33.3" tall new. (front end has been lifted about 40mm or so)

Out of the box, a Defender is probably more capable than any other 4x4 on the market, except a Wrangler Rubicon, and rides and handles off road better than a Patrol, although both vehicles can be easily modded for tougher off road use and then it's up to the driver.

I've had a lot more niggly problems with the Defender than the Patrol, but it was caned by the previous owner (Govt department) but it has never stuck me up. (except when the clutch fork broke, but I still drove it for two weeks without a clutch :D)
The GU has been the very model of reliable and quiet transport, has now clocked 280,000km and is need of a new rear axle seal (and bearings ) whch I think this is about the only thing I've had to do since new other than normal servicing.
The Defender has been a bit more 'involving' than that, but I still prefer to drive the Defender, and do every day as it's my work truck. I'm on call 24/7, so I need a reliable vehicle and the Defender fits my needs well.

I've never even sat in a Patrol, so wouldn't have the foggiest idea.:D

Cheers
Simon

[simonr23]

thats a wierd coincidence(the other patrol topic). i figured this post would likely get lost/ignored. thanks heaps to everyone already for very helpful replies.

[B92 8NW]

I had a 1994 200Tdi manual discovery which I did 40,000k in. I've just recently upgraded to a 1997 300Tdi automatic which I've done 5,500 k in.

Fundamentally, the vehicles were the same. Both Discoverys, both turbo diesel (albeit 200/300) but the transmission made the overall package behave like two all together different vehicles.

The manual box had very good ratios for a stock vehicle. I found first was very low [3.692 on the tdi] for general around town driving, and not low enough when towing. 5th was not high enough when cruising at 110, but was perfect when towing at 110. They key thing with the diesel manuals though is that you cannot be lazy. If you need hill climbing power, an increase in speed etc, they wont pull from 1200 rpm by just sticking the boot in. You really do need to downshift - you will find that there is a very narrow band between 2000 and 3000 rpm where the engine is working at its best. In hilly areas I found that I had to drive to an engine speed in any given gear, not a road speed. It is however reported that the 200Tdi had a very undriveable torque curve. Whilst they say that correlation does not imply causation, I found it very "mysterious" that as soon as I had the fuelling tweaked, the gearbox started to let go...

With the auto, the engine seems to have good torque across a wide spread of rpm. I tow an 8x5 tandem regularly and the auto makes much better work of it than the manual. However, the top gear ratio is very high - this a problem when towing at 110, such as on the Hume when you hit a hill. Where the manual was doing 2800-3000 rpm, in its prime, the auto is doing around 2350-2400. It will lose speed very quickly!!! I want to find an auto shop than can modify the valve block so that it locks up in third. I know that it would benefit from driving a 1.000:1 ratio locked up as that is the equivalent of 4th in the manual, and the old one towed flawlessly on hills in 4th!

Given that I do 200k a week just getting to Uni along the monash carpark, I'm much happier with the auto, but there are lots of things to consider, depending on how you want to use it.

When I test drove the autos, I took them well away from the owner's residence and gave them a decent testing. Find a flat bit of ground and bring the revs up to 1,000. Cycle between R and D 20 times. You'll get a good idea of condition by the noises it makes:eek:. Take the Shift speeds/engine speeds data from the RAVE with you and make sure its all within specification. Find some hilly areas and see if the auto is confident in its gear selections and holds appropriate gears - or if it carries on like a pork chop and hunts to buggery. If you can have a trans place do a line pressure test - all the better. The tdi autos are slower to get off the line until about 2000 rpm, but if its painfully slow until 2000, there can be a fault with the torque converter giving essentially no torque multiplication (its on the ashcroft site somewhere, i forget the specifics). Also, find a bloody bloody bloody steep hill. Stop halfway up and restart. I tried this with one I looked at and it wouldn't pull away, just revved to buggery. RUN!

[PAT303]

When I bought my defender the main thing that got me in was the running costs over time.Look at the cost of fuel,oil changes,tyres etc and you save alot of money.Most Jap 4x4 are modded because they have to be,LR's don't. Pat

[loanrangie]

If he's not a tinkering kind of guy i would lead him to the patrol even though i hate the way they drive. there is just something about the GQ/GU's that have this steering shimmy/ shake in them, my old man has had 2 GQ's and now a GU and all have had this same shimmy- no where near as nice to drive as a rover.

[simonr23]

it looks at this stage that he wants to go witht he patrol too. we'll have do a couple of test drives on the weekend and see what he thinks then. i'm also leaning slightly towards the patrol for him. its a bit like a top gear episode i watched last night, where they are comparing 3 2 door coupes. they all prefer the alfa, but wouldnt reccomend one to their friends. i'm a bit the same with my brother. he'd just rather a car that just works. he's not fussed by how it feels and if it is more enjoyable to drive.
i'll report back on sunday and see whats happened by then.

[Ace]

I reckon the disco, but like you i am biased. My main reason is that because of the perception that land rovers are crap and unreliable the resale values for second hand vehicles are lower for land rovers than they are for patrols and cruisers. As a result of this the 12k budget will buy a crappier condition patrol than a disco of the same age, simply because the patrols hold their value. Or if you looked for one in the same condition the patrol would be older than the disco.

In the end either truck is a good choice, the disco will be more comfortable, i have ridden in a mates GQ and it was a rough as guts to ride in compared to the disco (not sure if this is representative of all GQ's though), the GQ is slightly more roomy though, and probably the better choice if he has a large family who likes to take lots of gear away with them. The disco and the patrol will be easy and simple to work on, the disco will have more power (holding 100 on the highway wise) than a 2.8L patrol of any vintage, will use less fuel and the motors are more useable off road. In low range the Tdi has not turbo lag at all, well mine doesnt.

Hope this helps. Matt

[rick130]

just bear in mind my comments above in that thread Simon linked to refer to the TB42, TD42 and TD42T engines.
I've never had anything to do with the RD28 and I've always been advised to keep away from them, but it could be just that they don't have enough grunt for the big Nissan, but it should be smooth being a six cylinder.

The ZD30 in the GU is a good engine..........











...for a hand grenade :twisted:

[rick130]

.

<snip>, the disco will be more comfortable, i have ridden in a mates GQ and it was a rough as guts to ride in compared to the disco (not sure if this is representative of all GQ's though), the GQ is slightly more roomy though, and probably the better choice if he has a large family <snip>

Hope this helps. Matt

both GQ's and GU's ride quality is crap compared to virtually any Land Rover of the same vintage, but it's only springs and shocks so can be improved out of sight if someone knows what they are doing.

I find Nissan steering weight too light by half, it's over assisted to buggery, but most people prefer that. Affecting it is the basic wheel alignment too. Some Patrols chew out front tyres at a ravenous rate. Companies like Narrellan Truck Align know how to fix this relatively easily with eccentric shims in the swivels (reduce positive camber to 0* or thereabouts and increase castor ) but it still costs extra $$
Patrol seats aren't the most comfortable either, with GQ's being really bad.

I find the lack of front end bump travel in the Patrol frustrating, too. Easy enough to fix with a lift, but you look at the buggers and they look nice and tall at stock ride height, but they are actually riding/crashing into the bump stops all the time just driving on bitumen roads.

[Ace]

just bear in mind my comments above in that thread Simon linked to refer to the TB42, TD42 and TD42T engines.
I've never had anything to do with the RD28 and I've always been advised to keep away from them, but it could be just that they don't have enough grunt for the big Nissan, but it should be smooth being a six cylinder.

The ZD30 in the GU is a good engine..........

...for a hand grenade :twisted:

I have a mate with a 2.8L TD GU patrol and whilst the GU is a top truck the 2.8L engine, which is more reliable than the 3.0L, is not powerful enough for a big truck like the patrol. He has had alot of problems with his, mainly injector pump issues. But off road he really needs to work the throttle to keep the motor in the useable rev range. The 3.0L is a good engine with plenty of power, but their reliability lets them down, and they arent worth the risk, especially in the older versions. Matt

[Ace]

both GQ's and GU's ride quality is crap compared to virtually any Land Rover of the same vintage, but it's only springs and shocks so can be improved out of sight if someone knows what they are doing.

I find Nissan steering weight too light by half, it's over assisted to buggery, but most people prefer that. Affecting it is the basic wheel alignment too. Some Patrols chew out front tyres at a ravenous rate. Companies like Narrellan Truck Align know how to fix this relatively easily with eccentric shims in the swivels (reduce positive camber to 0* or thereabouts and increase castor ) but it still costs extra $$
Patrol seats aren't the most comfortable either, with GQ's being really bad.

I find the lack of front end bump travel in the Patrol frustrating, too. Easy enough to fix with a lift, but you look at the buggers and they look nice and tall at stock ride height, but they are actually riding/crashing into the bump stops all the time just driving on bitumen roads.

Im glad it wasnt just me then. We went in it to the Glow worm tunnels a while ago and i sat in the back. The road is badly pot holed and by the end of the trip i didnt have any fillings left. The disco is a breath of fresh handling wise. Even with a 2in left and now sway bars the disco handles well on road. Matt

[rick130]

Im glad it wasnt just me then. We went in it to the Glow worm tunnels a while ago and i sat in the back. The road is badly pot holed and by the end of the trip i didnt have any fillings left. The disco is a breath of fresh handling wise. Even with a 2in left and now sway bars the disco handles well on road. Matt


To me, an unladen stock GU wagon rides about the same as an unladen Defender 130.....

Maybe not quite that bad, but it feels like it when in the back. :twisted:

[BradM]

I had a 1996 2.8 TD GQ Patrol. They do have a much less tougher gearbox than the 4.2 petrol and deisel GQ's. Also no matter what you do you will get 500klms to a tank, no more.

They are also a slow beast and absolutly suck the deisel over 100 klms. I had mine for 5 years and traded it in on the MY2003 Disco.

If he goes for a Patrol get the 4.2 Litre variant. Dual fuel is fun to play with. I love both my Disco and my patrol but I think it better that he steers clear of the 2.8TD. They are just not a big enough engine for it.

[simonr23]

reporting back as promised.

he went the patrol route...

actually got a good price in the end. bought a cosmetically rough(well relatively) 1999 gu 2.8 with 180k for 14k. interior is great, but one of the rear flares is missing. mechanically its good. i drove it from adelaide to tanunda yesterday for him and despite only weighing an extra 50kgs(manufac specs for tare and kerb weights) it feels like there is more mass behind every movement. it feels to have more unsprung weight, and it did have that slight "shimmy" feeling when doing 100+kmh and over bad bitumen. feels like lateral play or uncontrolled tyre flex. i have to say though, it was a nice car to be in. power felt perfectly fine. going by base specs, it feels about how it should compared to my td5. overall power is basically same (95 vs 101) and although i have more torque(300-315 vs 252) it cruises and accelerates well.

one thing that really annoyed me though, was how much smoother the inline 6 is compared to my td5. in sound, revability and actually feeling it in the cabin. it really only sounded like a diesel when idling. nice turbo noise too.

we're going for a drive back to the border track on saturday (there goes $300 in fuel in 8 hrs) in both cars. taking them both so to get a bit of a comparison(fuel use, comfort, off road ability- i better win!), and also incase there are any hidden issues with the patrol that havent cropped up yet.

thanks for your opinions people :)

[mcrover]

It's simple, If he has kids and needs it to be a school bus as well as 4wd toy/tourer then the Poo would be the pick for the interior space.

If he wants a capable 4wd that will give him the best of both worlds due to it being built to work rather than drop kids at school then get the Disco but make sure he understands that maintenance means more than putting fuel into it.

It's 2 different cars for 2 different uses, 2 different sizes and classes.

[rangieman]

2.8 gu not a very strong motor and gearbox good luck with it:cool: