Biodiesel and engine lubrication.....

[rick130]

Here are some excellent articles published by Chevron on the impact of bio-diesel and its effect on engine lubricants.

http://www.lubricantsuniversity.com/images/stories/011082%20MGW%20Biodiesel%20Magazine%2002%20(screen ).pdf (http://www.lubricantsuniversity.com/images/stories/011082%20MGW%20Biodiesel%20Magazine%2002%20%28scre en%29.pdf)
http://www.lubricantsuniversity.com/images/stories/011099%20MGW%20Biodiesel%20Magazine%20Part%202%20( screen).pdf (http://www.lubricantsuniversity.com/images/stories/011099%20MGW%20Biodiesel%20Magazine%20Part%202%20% 28screen%29.pdf)


Excellent reading for those considering the bio-diesel route and its impact on engine wear and life.

Here's a small extract form the conclusion of paper two...

"From a lubrication
standpoint, biodiesel’s properties render
it more likely to enter and remain in
the crankcase causing dilution of the
lubricating oil. The oxidation of biodiesel
in crankcase oil creates increased deposits
and lead corrosion. Equipment operators
are encouraged to conduct used oil
analysis as well as reduce drain intervals
to compensate for the increased severity
due to biodiesel use. In addition, the
appropriate use of performance additives
in conjunction with engine oil formulating
technologies can be used to offset some of
the impact of biodiesel use.
Despite these issues, biodiesel is now the
fastest growing alternative fuel in the U.S.,
with production soaring from 25 million
gallons in 2004 to 250 million gallons (approximately 6 million barrels) in 2006."

FWIW, I currently have fuel dilution issues of under 1% with conventional diesel.
This is less than most labs can measure, (most don't flag fuel until it reaches 2-5%) and in my 300Tdi it is creating a situation that will shorten engine life, despite using 'premium' lubes.

[EchiDna]

very interesting, but as always there is a fair element of vested interest in there... :)

The part I can't get my head around is how some motor companies can approve B100 for most/all motors, others are so conservative to only approve some motors for B5! It does my head in because there is hardly any info on how these decisions are reached by the industry or specific company in question... we hear lots about "higher pressure injectors don't like Bio", some info about low pressure injectors coping better etc etc...

what we need is an oil company to bring out bio-diesel specific motor oils with the proper blend of oxidation inhibitors added for the given Bio blend (e.g. B5-20, B20-50, B50-80, B80-100). this solves all the "problems" from an oil perspective, but unfortunately doesn't change the injector/injector pump life cycle question...

[Slunnie]

On the flip side, what I have read is that bio has significantly better lubricity properties than diesel, especially low-sulpher.

[Blknight.aus]

sorry but Im going to call that slightly missleading, and considering its been published on the dollar of 3 major oil companies Im not surprised...


there are some facts that are slightly mis-represented and unless you carefully read the whole thing you'll miss the disclaimers....

one example is a section that mentions along the lines that biodiesel will cause additional engine wear, and then under it is a photo of the crank end of a block with a rod (presumabley attched to the piston still in the bore) and a hand with some crud held as proof, under that is a statement that without changes in the maintenance schedule and the lubricants engine damage may occour. Call me pedantic but if I put 5-15 wt high altitude winter grade oil in a diesel engine operated it at the heights of the blue mountains in winter then drove it to darwin and worked it during the wet season without changing my maintenance schedule and lubricants I'd get the same damage.

there are however some points that are obscurely mentioned but not signifiacantly highlighted namely the quality of the bio that you use makes the most difference and there is very little mentioned about the generational differences in metalurgy and injection techniques/pressures that will change the way that using bio will effect the wear rates of your engine.

[rick130]

On the flip side, what I have read is that bio has significantly better lubricity properties than diesel, especially low-sulpher.

as bio is an ester it does have better lubricity, but that only helps on the pump/injector side.
What they are talking about in these article is what happens when the bio mixes with a conventionally additised oil in the crankcase, and the resultant oxidative stress incurred.

[rick130]

<snip>
and there is very little mentioned about the generational differences in metalurgy and injection techniques/pressures that will change the way that using bio will effect the wear rates of your engine.

They used industry standard tests like the Mack EO-O and T12, Cummins ISB and Volswagen TDI tests to evaluate the effects.

The bottom line is that regardless of the engines metalurgy and injection type, the oxidative stress on the oil induced by fuel dilution is the same, regardless.

[rick130]

The other thing that I haven't mentioned is that the new ULSD fuels are showing to be pretty hard on engine oils too, according to the people I talk and listen too.

Oils that worked extremely effectively 3 or five years ago are being pushed to the limit and then some by the additives now in use when the fuel gets into the crankcase.

[mcrover]

Storm in a tea cup......:p

[rick130]

very interesting, but as always there is a fair element of vested interest in there... :)

The part I can't get my head around is how some motor companies can approve B100 for most/all motors, others are so conservative to only approve some motors for B5! It does my head in because there is hardly any info on how these decisions are reached by the industry or specific company in question... we hear lots about "higher pressure injectors don't like Bio", some info about low pressure injectors coping better etc etc...

what we need is an oil company to bring out bio-diesel specific motor oils with the proper blend of oxidation inhibitors added for the given Bio blend (e.g. B5-20, B20-50, B50-80, B80-100). this solves all the "problems" from an oil perspective, but unfortunately doesn't change the injector/injector pump life cycle question...

I'm betting the additive suppliers like Lubrizol are already formulating or have available additive packages to combat this.

The fellow that does my UOA interpreting (http://www.dysonanalysis.com/) has put me onto a HOBS ester based lube that has an amazing add package that would probably work really well with bio diesel, as some of their lubes have shown excellent results in petrol fuel dilution monsters like the new DI Audi/VW's. None of the boutique syn oils, let alone the conventional synthetic VW approved oils can last a normal oil change in some of these DI engines.

[SenatorKang]

Chevron?

...

Bear in mind that I'm one of the most cynical people you'll ever talk to, and I rarely like anything...


Chevron = :firedevil:

Rant over :wasntme:

[rick130]

Penrite are beating the same drum


Biodiesel however is more of an issue.
B5 and B10 are common overseas with some B20 and very occasionally, B100.
The “bio” is the ester part. These esters are made from a chemical process where vegetable
oils or animal fats are reacted with an alcohol to form a fatty acid methyl ester (or FAME). The
common vegetable type oils are canola oil, palm oil and soybean. And you can also make it
from corn, olive and sunflower oil. Even used cooking oil is a good source once refined.
Biodiesel has some issues that mineral diesel does not have.
Fuel dilution is always a problem with diesels. But biodiesel is less volatile. Hence, while the
mineral component may evaporate, the “bio” part does not. This of course lowers the viscosity
of the oil. However, to counter that, the “bios” are not as oxidatively stable so the oil thickens
again – but with the usual oxidation by-products occurring (but worse) such as sludge and
increased piston deposits. So the combination of the two factors can impact engine wear.
Poor quality biodiesel may also lead to ash build up in diesel particulate filters and work is
continuing on that factor. In Europe and the USA, there are tight specifications for the “bio”
component to ensure that overall fuel quality is not compromised. So simply blending your old
cooking oil with your fuel is not a wise option.
While many OEMs accept B5 diesel, recent work has found that even that 5% dilution can have
a major impact on oil life and that lubricant selection will be critical. In modern engines that
require low SAPS oils, the low SAPS oils seem to be able to handle B5/B10 blends better than
other grades (so Enviro+ Engine Oils and Diesel SP are favoured). In older engines, little
work has yet been done, but products such as HPR Diesel 5, Diesel GS and Diesel LA would
be favoured here.
Current practice recommends standard oil drain intervals be halved when using biodiesel
regardless of the oil type and that is certainly the stand that Penrite will be taking while
research continues.
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/files/276IJDE46F/134%20LUBRICANTS%20AND%20BIOFUEL.pdf

(and yes, I've double posted this on another thread as I feel it's relevant to both)

[isuzurover]

I agree with Rick and Echidna. Funnily enough I was talking to someone from what I believe is the same company as you work for Echidna, and he mentioned the higher oxidation rate of BD as causing some issues.

BD (esp home made) has a much shorter shelf life than diesel for this reason.

In Germany/France, all ULSD has 5% bio to improve lubricity.

[Tombie]

Well. Another interesting note...

"Current practice recommends standard oil drain intervals be halved when using biodiesel regardless of the oil type and that is certainly the stand that Penrite will be taking while research continues."

So now my cheap Bio vehicle will cost me twice as much in Oils and filters :p

At $90.00 for 10 litres I wouldnt save a cent!

So lets see.. Less power and torque... More consumption.... Potential filter and fuel line and pump issues.....And now I need to service the vehicle twice as much so my servicing cost doubles...

Plus potential engine wear increases....


I'll stick to my DinoDiesel ;)


Its only when the big picture begins to appear that stop gap solutions become undone!!!!

Remember to BIO stock world wide? Food resources are too low as is, yet alone the ability to sustain a commercially viable level of biomass to feed the worlds requirements for fuel & food....

[clean32]

Well. Another interesting note...

"Current practice recommends standard oil drain intervals be halved when using biodiesel regardless of the oil type and that is certainly the stand that Penrite will be taking while research continues."

So now my cheap Bio vehicle will cost me twice as much in Oils and filters :p

At $90.00 for 10 litres I wouldnt save a cent!

So lets see.. Less power and torque... More consumption.... Potential filter and fuel line and pump issues.....And now I need to service the vehicle twice as much so my servicing cost doubles...

Plus potential engine wear increases....


I'll stick to my DinoDiesel ;)


Its only when the big picture begins to appear that stop gap solutions become undone!!!!

Remember to BIO stock world wide? Food resources are too low as is, yet alone the ability to sustain a commercially viable level of biomass to feed the worlds requirements for fuel & food....




What a load of rubbish
consumption and power down on Bio, nope don’t think so.

Bio Diesel, displacing food production Nope not true. but it is true in the case of corn produced ethanol fuels.

And the object of bio is not cost in $$$ but cost to the environment. Regardless of any arguments, pumping out CO2 that has been locked underground for the last few million years. With Bio at least its locked in its own loop.

Regardless of what you think its here to stay, and I will bet that in the future the Law will be that you have to use it.

[Tombie]

What a load of rubbish
consumption and power down on Bio, nope don’t think so.


Err yeah... I do....

Proven... Over and Over.....

Including several members of this forum who tried Bio.. Only to suffer power loss and increased fuel consumption...


And as for BioMass availability.... I have seen a couple of scientific journal articles on this... Canola etc is grown as a replenishment crop usually between std crops and then plowed into the ground.
Now, many farmers actually harvest it and sell it for Bio Production.
A farmer will grow what makes him money (logical)...

But hey, you are entitled to your opinion.


As for law etc.. Laws are made by politicians.. For their own agenda..

The current agenda is pushing the "Global Carbon" line.. It gets votes from misinformed masses...

In the small picture "Bio" and other things look to be a great idea...
In the big picture they are not so 'sweet'

CO2 in our atmosphere is a great one.. Even the scientific community cant agree... See studies into CO2 levels in polar ice cores... Global warming occurs PRIOR to increased CO2 emmissions... And has for millenia...


But let me explain this to some out there... Carbon Trading etc.. Whilst a 'pretty' sounding idea is about to come around and thump EVERY Australian on the backside...

Cars will go up in cost... Houses, building materials etc...

Your world as you know it is going to become a very very expensive place to live (unless you live in a wood house in the desert with no power etc)
you will all be expected to pay for the increased costs.... And many people just scrape by as it is.... Watch the meltdown then...

Example: Sheds / Cars / Appliances etc.. use steel...
To make 1t of steel produces 2.2t of CO2...

Someones going to end up paying for the Carbon Tax.. It will get passed on...


BIO Fuels are not the be all and end all..... At current technology they are not quite there....

Once they become mainstream... And governments, Fuel companies etc.. Get involved.. It will become illegal to 'home brew'
Then you'll see regulation, tax, excise etc...

Just wait... I'll happily eat humble pie if I'm wrong...

[clean32]

Err yeah... I do....

Proven... Over and Over.....

Including several members of this forum who tried Bio.. Only to suffer power loss and increased fuel consumption...
.

Just as there are many people who run bio diesel with no problems, I would sagest that they don’t post so they don’t cop the wrath of those who believe they know better.
IF bio diesel was so bad then EVERY user would have experienced EXACLY the same mechanical and consumption problems. This obviously hasn’t happened so your logic is a bit crook. We don’t have a Bio thread saying Bio stuffed my Landie now do we.

Next point Global worming and Co2 atmospheric content. You are correct when you say the scientific community is some what divided on this topic, it all depends on what or who is paying for them. The fact remains and there is no argument over this. By consuming dino fuels we are replacing chemicals ( CO2 being just one) into the atmosphere that has been locked away for the past few million years. The ice caps are receding. **** a couple of aussies just got killed by a big hunk of ice. 5 years ago that Glacier was 1.3 klm longer. Can’t argue the signs are there but you can argue as to why.

Carbon Tax
Mate you need a lesson in basic economics. It’s not about how much money there is, it’s about how fast that money spins around, IE that’s why the Government gave the 1K to the people who would spend it and not save it, keep it spinning. Carbon tax will just spin the money from over there to some where else, sure you are correct many products will cost more, but then a new industry will rise producing more jobs and pumping that money back into the economy. Quite simple really. User pays economy’s are the economy’s that are safest ( like Australia) when economics takes a bit of a bum turn, at least we don’t have 20:1 fractionalized banking ( only 4:1 here)

Bio fuel production
In Australia the majority of bio fuel is made from imported Palm oil, canola oil is produced for other products, there is a restriction on canola oil to stop people from trying to make there own bio diesel from it.
You are getting your facts muddled up with bio Mass, and bio petrol production, which is a totally different ball game,

[chazza]

Canola etc is grown as a replenishment crop usually between std crops and then plowed into the ground.


Not over here it isn't! Why would anyone plant canola as a replenishment crop when it doesn't fix nitrogen in the soil and actually has detrimental effect on the soil by using vast quantities of Sulphur? Not to mention the expense in growing a plant due to the insecticide and fertiliser costs. Not for nothing is it called Rapeseed - because it rapes the soil!

Canola oil is used in transmissions and there is farmer not far from me, who runs the entire farm fleet on biodiesel he has grown himself :D