Devastating phone call....

[dullbird]

Dealer called us today.....as some of you may know car went in wrongly for its 10,000k service

only to be informed our car is STUFFED.....

WHY? ........water in the fuel.

they said they have never seen this amount of water in the fuel before and they are actually supprised that the car managed to continue running!!!!

we have been quoted off the cuff of 6 and a half grand!! that they said may possibly not be covered by insurance.

the car needs everthing replacing!!!

[incisor]

:eek:

bloody hell woman..

hope it works out in your favour!

[Disco_owner]

Dealer called us today.....as some of you may know car went in wrongly for its 10,000k service

only to be informed our car is STUFFED.....

WHY? ........water in the fuel.

they said they have never seen this amount of water in the fuel before and they are actually supprised that the car managed to continue running!!!!

we have been quoted off the cuff of 6 and a half grand!! that they said may possibly not be covered by insurance.

the car needs everthing replacing!!!

DB

is this the new Defender? how did that much water get into the Fuel system ? sorry to hear about your wows , what about dealer warranty? i s'pose that wouldn't be covered ?

[dullbird]

DB

is this the new Defender? how did that much water get into the Fuel system ? sorry to hear about your wows , what about dealer warranty? i s'pose that wouldn't be covered ?

yes the new defender........

its not covered under dealer warrenty!

i dont know how much but apparently ALOT the most the service centre has ever seen!

[Rosco]

Any chance of tracing back to where you got your fuel?
And what about the water dash light on the bottom of the filter?

Surely you shouldn't have to carry the can.

[EchiDna]

DB, Ouch!! I bet that makes one feel happy... NOT!!

Disco Owner, how can a dealer warranty cover damage caused by the fuel the owner puts into it? In my understanding, warranties are against faulty manufacturing, not misuse - even if that misuse is completely unintentional as in the case of water in the fuel. This is what you buy comprehensive insurance is for!

that said, if there was a way in which it was found that it was faulty LR assembly (i.e. fuel level sender is loose and any road spray or water flowing over the fuel tank runs into the tank) then you might have a warranty claim...

DB, if you bought all your fuel from one location, then the reciepts and mileage logbook might come in handy for a small claims tribunal claim against the supplier of the fuel - you cannot be alone in that situation, there should be others with stuffed motors from the same source.

[isuzurover]

Hmm - sorry to hear! Sounds very strange though...

It should take quite a bit of water before you get any near your pump/injectors.

Any more detail on what exactly is damaged???

[Tusker]

There was a lot of water in fuel issues a few months ago.. one of the majors was responsible.

Heard of a few Toyotas having issues. My neighbour put her RAv/Highlander whatever it is into the dealer for rough running, they didn't pick the water, & sent her on her way. 2nd time they did when the engine died & needed replacing. Warranty covered the dealer error .

Regards
Max P

[Rosco]

........ This is what you buy comprehensive insurance is for!



Now that raises an interesting point. If you're silly enough to run off the road and into a tree, where it's entirely your fault, and you do $6K+ damage to the engine/drivetrain or any other bit, then you're covered.

Could it not also be successfully argued that you're also covered in this type of no fault scenario ??

[Dungie]

DB,
Any chance this water can be traced back to the last time you fueled up. I know that from a dealers point of veiw that contaminated fuel in these common rail systems requirers the replacement of everything. However I have seen contaminated systems cleaned out as long as the contamination has not reached the h/p pump and injectors. Was the engine running well when it went in for service? Is the contamination water, collect a sample.
Does the new defender have a water warning light on the dash to indicate water in the fuel? Did this light work?
Regards

[one_iota]

:(

Sorry to hear.

You sure it isn't related to the fuel tank breather location...if it is then it might be Land Rovers issue?

[abaddonxi]

Oh bugger.

Simon

[Blknight.aus]

Pfffaf...


was it running when you took it in?

if so then the water trap and tank sullage was doing its job

drain, flush with dewatering agent, refill with clean fuel, jobs done.


anything else is them trying to get you to pay for something you shouldnt have to.

[dullbird]

:(

Sorry to hear.

You sure it isn't related to the fuel tank breather location...if it is then it might be Land Rovers issue?

no because we haven't been through any deep water

the engine was running ok but there had been a couple of times the car had a rattle and power was lost.....and once when the engine light came on (landrover assit came out but as usual it didn't happen when they got there)

apparently we need everything changing inclucding injectors...

yes we can trace fuel as we have log books and receipts....but as ian pointed out we have had the rattles and the engine light a while ago, we spoke to the dealer about it and they said they think it was probably a case of a bad tank of fuel.

so the water could of possibly been sitting there a while, any how we have only fueled 2 possibly 3 fuel stations as like i do with my car i always go to the same one..

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Yukk

Sorry for your bad news! Your comprehensive insurance should cover something like that.

I have heard that midnight bandit fuel thieves sometimes put water into underground tanks so that the fuel comes out the filler and they can scavenge it off the driveway.

You can add methanol (metholated spirits) to petrol to trap small amounts of water contaminated petrol to allow it to pass the filters and be burned through the engine, but I'm unaware if the same goes for diesel.

Diana

[abaddonxi]

Hope you've got SuperScouse in your corner.

Simon

[Scouse]

I'm on holidays but surely it can't be too bad if the engine was running prior to taking it to Trivetts. However, Land Rover policy normally dictates that the fuel system be replaced to maintain warranty.

We have had customers fill their diesel cars with petrol & drive them 'till they stop. Insurance has covered this.

By the same token, there have been several cars towed in due to poor fuel & the servo in question has coughed up the full repair bill.

This seems unusual in that the engine kept running. The other Land Rover diesels seem to stop at the slightest hint of water.

I would be discussing this with your insurance company ASAP. Let them know what has happened & that you have fuel purchase records. Hopefully they should cover you.

[isuzurover]

Yukk

Sorry for your bad news! Your comprehensive insurance should cover something like that.

I have heard that midnight bandit fuel thieves sometimes put water into underground tanks so that the fuel comes out the filler and they can scavenge it off the driveway.

You can add methanol (metholated spirits) to petrol to trap small amounts of water contaminated petrol to allow it to pass the filters and be burned through the engine, but I'm unaware if the same goes for diesel.

Diana

I would not advise this. When I worked with some refinery R&D chemists many years ago, I mentioned adding methanol to petrol/diesel (even refineries have big problems removing water after hydrotreating) - they said it works, but when the water/methanol ratio becomes too high (supersaturation), all the water will come out of solution!!! It would be a big problem if this happens after your water trap!!!

[dullbird]

I'm on holidays but surely it can't be too bad if the engine was running prior to taking it to Trivetts. However, Land Rover policy normally dictates that the fuel system be replaced to maintain warranty.

We have had customers fill their diesel cars with petrol & drive them 'till they stop. Insurance has covered this.

By the same token, there have been several cars towed in due to poor fuel & the servo in question has coughed up the full repair bill.

This seems unusual in that the engine kept running. The other Land Rover diesels seem to stop at the slightest hint of water.

I would be discussing this with your insurance company ASAP. Let them know what has happened & that you have fuel purchase records. Hopefully they should cover you.

i will et ian know he is talking to the insurance company......

the thing is scouse when we had the rattle and engine light problem (that did go off the next day).. and ian rang up the serivce centre they said probably a bad tank of fuel dont bring it in just see how it goes:eek:.......

[Bundalene]

Sorry to hear the issues with the pride & joy. Did the water trap light come on? If not does this make it a warranty claim? Why didn't the fuel filter work? Also, it would be interesting to have a look at the breather without telling the Dealer It is probably still in the same spot behind the back left wheel - maybe they forgot the small filter in the breather line. Just looked at mine and I reckon it is in a vulnerable position. Any water from the recent rain would splash up there. (I am assuming these items are the same as that of a late TD5 Defender) Good luck, Erich

[mns488]

Yukk

Sorry for your bad news! Your comprehensive insurance should cover something like that.




x 2.

I know of someone that put water in their engine thinking that was the spot to fill the reservoir/overflow and their comprehensive car insurance covered the subsequent engine damage.

Good luck.

[Andy2.4]

Dullbird,

It seems that other people in the UK have had the same problem as you and appears that the position of the breather allows water to spray off the rear tyre into the opening of the Breather. See attached comments from LRO forum in Uk.

Oh Dear Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation
2.4 DEFs do have a problem The tank breathere is behind the Rear Left wheel and gets watere thrown up onto it this then causes the injectors to leak and hydralicks the engine! causing more damage Crying or Very sad . This fault can be rectified by moving the breather to behind the plastic flap coverig the rear lights acording to LR. this is advised to any 2.4 driver as althow under warenty you lose you verchel for a undisclosed amount of time as the damage is assesed and reported to LR befor and action can be taken.

Hope this helps and 2.4 drivers and no one on here has been struck by the fault!!!
jonny

Hope this helps

[muddymech]

hi all, donations for fuel pump send this way......


so far i have spoken with insurance co and they going to do there bit and see if there is a claim, it works along the lines of its your fault unlike an accident but you have not done it on purpose so we will cover you, fingers crossed, they also want to see if the supplying garage can be traced as they can then sue there insurance to get everyone money back including my excess, that would be cool.

as scouse said landrover have to change everything to cover them selves over teh exsisting run on there warrenty, which i guess makes sense especally if you are not footing the bill.

i spoke with gordon at opposite lock and he has had a customer go though the same thing, sound sliek its pretty common in this country.

as for water in fuel light i can not see anything in teh hand book, so does anyone know any different.

what happened to the good old days of a water trap on the fuel filter or does fuel quality stay good these days not too need one???????

so watch this space and lets hope we come out smiling, incidently apart froma rattle which lasted for half a second first thing in the morning teh car has been great, no fuel economy or performance issues, no excess noise vibration etc etc still a great car but would be even better parked on my drive way.:D

have to admitt the phone call certainly ruined my day but at least i have stopped shaking with the shock now.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

...You can add methanol (metholated spirits) to petrol to trap small amounts of water contaminated petrol to allow it to pass the filters and be burned through the engine, but I'm unaware if the same goes for diesel.

Diana
I would not advise this. ...
IsuzuR

I would tend to agree with you on your intent, however my post (as stated) was referring to small amounts of water contamination.

As would always be the case, and if you were doing the job yourself, it would be appropriate to drain all remaining fuel, clean out fuel lines. any water traps and change the fuel filters. Then use the methanol to absorb the remaining water. Perhaps I should have made that a bit clearer.

Dullbird,

given that there seem to be numerous cases of water contamination and even a "Land Rover" company fix in the U.K., I would be bringing that information to the attention of Trivett's and possibly going as far as the NSW Office of Fair Trading/ or the federal ACCC.

Diana

[George130]

Dam thats not the call you want.

[solmanic]

:(

Sorry to hear.

You sure it isn't related to the fuel tank breather location...if it is then it might be Land Rovers issue?

You are probably already aware of this but in case not, here is a link to the Defender2 thread (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic396.html) regarding contaminated fuel and the suspect breather position.


i will et ian know he is talking to the insurance company......

the thing is scouse when we had the rattle and engine light problem (that did go off the next day).. and ian rang up the serivce centre they said probably a bad tank of fuel dont bring it in just see how it goes:eek:.......

This sounds like an issue I had very briefly a few weeks back and our dealer also suggested bad fuel. We took ours STRAIGHT into the dealer and they plugged-in then informed us that the entire common rail and fuel delivery system needed replaceing (under warranty). The way they described it it sounded like they were trying to fix this on several vehicles without forcing a recall.

Water in fuel - known breather location problem - known issues with fuel delivery system... I would press the point and expect some sort of warranty fix from Land Rover. If your regular fuel supplier has not had any other reports from customers of bad fuel, then the vehicle is the problem, not the diesel!

[solmanic]

I hope this issue doesn't bite Scallops and Kat while they're a million miles from anywhere...

[solmanic]

as scouse said landrover have to change everything to cover them selves over teh exsisting run on there warrenty, which i guess makes sense especally if you are not footing the bill.

Yep. That's what they told me too when they did the common-rail. I'm sure if you combined ALL the warranty issues people have reported in ONE vehicle, you would get eventually have a whole new one.

[Disco_owner]

DB, Ouch!! I bet that makes one feel happy... NOT!!

Disco Owner, how can a dealer warranty cover damage caused by the fuel the owner puts into it? In my understanding, warranties are against faulty manufacturing, not misuse - even if that misuse is completely unintentional as in the case of water in the fuel. This is what you buy comprehensive insurance is for!



I actually said it as a spare of the moment thing without putting much thinking behind it , but the after thought was , I suppose the dealer warranty won't cover this scenario.

my appologies and thank you for pointing it out..

[solmanic]

I suppose the dealer warranty won't cover this scenario.

Although this scenario is confused when you factor in failure of the "water in fuel" warning light. With such a supposedly massive amount of damage, the failure of this component to perform its function has certainly magnified the problem.

[discowhite]

Pfffaf...


was it running when you took it in?

if so then the water trap and tank sullage was doing its job

drain, flush with dewatering agent, refill with clean fuel, jobs done.


anything else is them trying to get you to pay for something you shouldnt have to.

ide have to agree with this bloke:eek:
if its got/had that much water it would run like crap! especally when ian runs it almost dry.

still wanna know why there isnt a water check light for the fuel filter like on the d2's, my 90 has the wiring for it also.

cheers phil

[dobbo]

ide have to agree with this bloke:eek:
if its got/had that much water it would run like crap! especally when ian runs it almost dry.
still wanna know why there isnt a water check light for the fuel filter like on the d2's, my 90 has the wiring for it also.

cheers phil

I agree with both DW and Blknight

'tis crap


With Ian running it almost dry condensation could build up in the tank over time? But not that much.

At work the diesels are topped up daily to prevent condensation in the tanks but that is what filters and water warning systems are for.

It's a Defender FFS it is supposed to be offroaded, surely this is a warrantee issue.

Get them to check the water trap and warning system is working 100%

This should not happen on a modern diesel.

[mcrover]

This sux......:mad::(

The claim bloke at the stealership is trying you guys out to see if he can pull a swifty.

What they do and a dealer tried it on my old bosses is that they make you pay for it and then put through a claim and get paid for it twice.

We only found out about it when we decided to change dealers and they checked out what claims there had been and they gave us a print out.

Dont just sit back and accept that they are not doing it as if the insurance co pays out then the dealer gets the same again, it is one of the dodgy things that SOME NOT ALL and probably NOT MANY dealers do to boost profits in service.

I would also demand that you get the parts back as well as they will make good spares for when the car is out of warrenty as there will more than likely be nothing wrong with them if it was running fine :D

Dave is spot on, if it had water in it you would have noticed...:D

[The ho har's]

I hope this issue doesn't bite Scallops and Kat while they're a million miles from anywhere...


I have just had the same thought....we went through plenty of water when we were with them a couple of weeks ago them some 700mm deep:eek:.......will try ringing them and see hoe they are going.

Mrs ho har:D

[Psimpson7]

TD5 defenders apart from very early ones dont have a water in fuel contamination light. They stopped fitting them. Is the car in question a TD5 or a 2.4?

[The ho har's]

I have rung scallops they are at Newman.......all is going well no probs with Grover or the fuel but he did say his rear wheel carrier just about fell off on the Gibb River Road:(....he has got that welded in Derby and hopfully will get them home....other than that everythings fine...the are heading off to the Gunbarrel h/wy tomorrow....... he has said to say hello to all of you via me as he has no intentions of touching a computer while he is on holidays


Mrs ho har:D

[mcrover]

TD5 defenders apart from very early ones dont have a water in fuel contamination light. They stopped fitting them. Is the car in question a TD5 or a 2.4?

It's a 2.4......:p

[Scouse]

The claim bloke at the stealership is trying you guys out to see if he can pull a swifty.OI, I am the 'claim bloke' :twisted:.
There would be no swifty involved, I can assure you.

I have not heard of the poor breather location problem so, now that Ian & Lou are armed with this evidence of previous issues with other cars, this avenue would/should be investigated.
Bring this evidence to the attention of Peter at Trivetts ( I assume you're dealing with him) as I'm sure no-one at Trivetts would have heard of this before. They will check the breather &, if it's found to be the cause, approach LR for warranty approval.

This might take a few days as a fuel test might have to be done.

[PAT303]

If it was mine I wouldn't be replacing the fuel system.If it was running there can't be that much wrong with it.If the pump,injectors are U/S you would know straight away.That vehicle would not go 10 feet with that much damage. Pat

[ivery819]

PAT303 If it was mine I wouldn't be replacing the fuel system.If it was running there can't be that much wrong with itI tend to agree with you.
The issue, however, is that unless the system is replaced Land Rover will not honour the balance of the new car warranty.
This water in fuel issue is not uncommon with the early (pre-late '07 build) Sport diesels . In the later V6's and TDV8's they installed a water in the fuel warning light. Not much help on the side of the road as you need to remove the shields near the fuel filter (a real PITA ), drain the filter housing, replace the filter element and bleed the fuel system (another PITA ) to fix the problem. The theory is that, at least, when the light comes on you can stop and have the vehicle flatbeded to a dealer. Some of the places I go I would be much older and a lot greyer before Land Rover Assist turned up ! (Oh! and Land Rover still only change the filter and clean the sediment bowl at the 40k service !!!!)

[solmanic]

TD5 defenders apart from very early ones dont have a water in fuel contamination light. They stopped fitting them. Is the car in question a TD5 or a 2.4?

I stand corrected - there is no water-in-fuel warning light in new Defenders. I was mistakenly recalling the coolant warning light which looks somewhat like a water-in-fuel light that I used to have on a Jeep. Still, with the breather issue and common-rail issue there must be something contributing to the problem.


...unless, you don't have any mischievous kids around do you?

[Blknight.aus]

Interestingly tonight there was on ACA one of the articals was about excess water in fuel coming from servos. I think from memory that it was something like 8% by volume which is WAY over whats permissable according to the A.S. for fuels. For that much to be in there by volume the suspension rate would have to be past the 90% mark. It wouldnt take too many refuels from a servo with that much water in the fuel to overcome the sedimentor and seperator in a truck let alone a rover and with the colder weather it would settle out into the bottom of the tank in very short order as well.

IMHO if the paper element of the filter isnt water saturated or water blocked theres no requirement to change the rest of the system and theres some dead simple tests that any decent filter shop should be able to do to work that one out. If theres any sign of water saturation on the outlet side of the filter then further investigation is required.

From my perspective as a Greaser you dont get to keep the parts that are changed under manufactureres warrenty and If I knew the manufacturer was going to foot the bill then Id change every single component in the fuel system (including the tank) except for the lines and then they'd get a bloody thorough flush out. An insurance job would depend on the insurer as to weather or not you got to keep them and if you were paying for it, any part thats safe to re-use you get to keep.

from a 2 minute google theres a couple of variences on how water in the fuel system is dealt with by third party warrenties. some will cover it if its water ingested from the fuel that can be traced back to a problem with the Emission control system of the vehicle but for the life of me I cant work out how you can prove that. Other than that water in the fuel is a problem for you, your insurer and the fuel companies.


Best of luck.

[Bigbjorn]

As I keep telling this forum, bung on a Racor Separator and filter. Listen to the acquired wisdom of the elders. It cost us lots of roadside nights and dollars (pounds, some of us) to acquire.

[Cameron_Def]

TD5 defenders apart from very early ones dont have a water in fuel contamination light. They stopped fitting them. Is the car in question a TD5 or a 2.4?

My 2001 TD5 does, and my mates 2005 Extreme does ... ?! both have been tested and work fine..!

[spudboy]

As I keep telling this forum, bung on a Racor Separator and filter. Listen to the acquired wisdom of the elders. It cost us lots of roadside nights and dollars (pounds, some of us) to acquire.

Brian - have you got any links for this. All I can find on Google is Bus and Truck stuff. Where did you get yours from?

Thanks

[muddymech]

thanks guys, its still in hands of insurance co at the moment.

scouse thanks i'am dealing with peter so will give him a call and make sure he is aware of te issue with regards the tank breather.

teh car has also got a mis fire did i mention that (sorry so much going round my head it takes a while to filter to teh correct part of the brain) weather this was casued by teh water i dont know.

yes, i have learnt aharsh lesson so have a new filter water separtor thing on order, prevntive maintenace we all know its good but put it too back of our minds.

will keep you all updated as some thing happens.

[DirtyDawg]

Thats crap DB, sorry to hear that... I wanna go wring someones neck on your behalf:twisted:

[Tusker]

My 2001 TD5 does, and my mates 2005 Extreme does ... ?! both have been tested and work fine..!

How did you test this without err.. putting water in the tank? Mine's a 2003, would love to get to the bottom of this.

I wonder if it can be fitted retrospectively?


As I keep telling this forum, bung on a Racor Separator and filter. Listen to the acquired wisdom of the elders. It cost us lots of roadside nights and dollars (pounds, some of us) to acquire.

Yet we hear that we shouldn't put aftermarket filters in a modern full flow system. The pump etc rely on the fuel for cooling. Yes I know TD%s don't have a pump, but the principle is the same. Isn't it?

Have you tested the fuel pressure before & after fitting the Racor?

Regards
Max P

[solmanic]

Thats crap DB, sorry to hear that... I wanna go wring someones neck on your behalf:twisted:


...any Big Brother contestant would be fine by me...:twisted:

[Aaron]

Tusker - Have you been on maesco.com - Mid-Atlantic Engine Supply Corp. (http://www.maesco.com/) ? Click on the Racor link. They have a Pro Vent system of their own too.

[Cameron_Def]

How did you test this without err.. putting water in the tank? Mine's a 2003, would love to get to the bottom of this.



Take the filter off the fuel filter, get a glass of water and put the sensor in the glass, and watch the light go on ;)

Easy eh ;) both mine and the 2005 extreme worked ..

[one_iota]

Did a bit of digging around last night and came across this review on the Ford Transit Van that suggests that it has a water in fuel sensor :



For further peace of mind, a 'Water in fuel' sensor is also included on diesel derivatives.


New Ford Transit Has It All - AutoWeb News (http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/A_107431/title_New-Ford-Transit-Has-It-All/newsarticle.html)

I wonder why the new defender doesn't?

How does it work in practical terms? Does it merely turn on a light or is it also connected to the engine management system?

The 300Tdi Disco has a filter and a sedimenter and I have always assumed that the sedimenter's job was also to catch water in the fuel and had to be drained occasionally. Does the Puma Defender have a similar setup to which a sensor could be attached before the water gets too far?

[dobbo]

A guy from work has picked up a batch of bad fuel, he lives in Sydney. $5k repairs to his vehicle.

[muddymech]

best spring water in the country straight from your local servo

[Scouse]

best spring water in the country straight from your local servoSo that's confirmed as the source ?

[solmanic]

I wonder why the new defender doesn't?
Good bloody question!

This is from Land Rover's own website...

Defender´s all new 2.4litre Diesel engine produces a class-leading 360Nm of Torque (javascript:openwindow('/au/en/_glossary/torque.htm','Glossary','height=426,width=492,menub ar=no,resizable=yes,scrollbars=yes,titlebar=0,tool bar=no,status=yes');) (90 percent of peak power is on tap from less than 2,200rpm to over 4,350rpm) and enhances its legendary capability yet again. In fact, not only is this new engine designed to be fully compliant with EU4 emissions legislation, a unique engine tune has been developed to allow it to tolerate the variable quality, high-sulphur fuels to be found across developing markets and is, of course, in keeping with the vehicle´s iconic status as a truly global product.

I am seriously surprised that this engine would self-destruct to the degree Muddymech & Dullbird have been told rather than have some form of sacrificial element or warning that there is water in the fuel. Sounds like someone needs their head read at Land Rover R&D.

[Bundalene]

I checked our 06 TD5 Defender today - no plug under the fuel filter and nothing in the book about a fuel water detector on this model. This will have to be a rather urgent mod - I will see if the earlier TD5 Disco water trap sensor fits as I have a spare one of these. Cheers, Erich.

[one_iota]

Truckies have options:

http://www.odms.net.au/files/organise/donaldsonfilters/data_library/Donaldson%20Fuel%20Manager%20-%20F111165.pdf

http://www.allstatesdiesel.com.au/PDF/Filter%20Assemblies%20and%20Elements%20Catalogue.p df

[rar110]

maybe drop in a 2nd cav type filter with a glass bottom to see water is a solution. After seeing an example of another formum member I mounted one on the radiator support panel. There's enough room on the county engine layout.

[Slunnie]

I checked our 06 TD5 Defender today - no plug under the fuel filter and nothing in the book about a fuel water detector on this model. This will have to be a rather urgent mod - I will see if the earlier TD5 Disco water trap sensor fits as I have a spare one of these. Cheers, Erich.
I was under the impression that the only difference was the threaded hole in the bottom of the filter, but would be interested in your findings.

[Slunnie]

Tusker - Have you been on maesco.com - Mid-Atlantic Engine Supply Corp. (http://www.maesco.com/) ? Click on the Racor link. They have a Pro Vent system of their own too.


As I keep telling this forum, bung on a Racor Separator and filter. Listen to the acquired wisdom of the elders. It cost us lots of roadside nights and dollars (pounds, some of us) to acquire.

Is this the filter we are talking about?
Racor Diesel Spin-On Series Filters / Water Separators (http://www.maesco.com/products/racor/r_spn_intro/r_spn_intro.html)

What does it do that is different to the TD5 filter as they look similar in operation to me, with the exception of a reusable housing and a clear body to view water buildup.

[Bundalene]

I was under the impression that the only difference was the threaded hole in the bottom of the filter, but would be interested in your findings.

That's what I am hoping + running a wire checking out the warning light.

[Aaron]

I think he means this sort of thing

Racor On and Off Highway Turbine Fuel Filter / Water Separator Introduction (http://www.maesco.com/products/racor/r_tbn_intro_hwy/r_tbn_intro_hwy.html)

[justinc]

How did you test this without err.. putting water in the tank? Mine's a 2003, would love to get to the bottom of this.

I wonder if it can be fitted retrospectively?


Regards
Max P

Hi Max,

AFAIR the wiring harness/ plug is there, Tied back on the loom above the filter bracket. You can just buy the sensor from an earlier model Td5 and screw it into the bottom of the filter, plug it in and there it is.

Will check to make sure, but I'm almost 100% certain the wiring is there, just not used.

JC

[Gigitt]

It is a pity that we rely on the pump delivering what it is supposed to... and getting water in the fuel is bad especially from the like of Shell BP Mobil and Caltex.

Yeah getting a good quallity inline filter like a Racor with water trap and monitor is good... but you still have water in the tank.

Maybe for a little cost you can use a Mr Funnel and stop water going into the tank... then you can take the filter containing the trapped water to the guy behind the counter and lodge a complain for a refund as you are paying for fuel not water!!

So... Maybe getting a Mr Funnel and using this to fill the car could save you.
Small price to pay.

(Buy it here in Oz: AeroShop - Pilot supplies & aircraft equipment (http://www.biziworks.com.au/biziworks/BiziGen?ownerID=AEROSHOP&docID=85&gclid=CL-Jp5r3t5QCFSEbagod9HgLUA) )

Australian Distributor: Wadeair - Australia's premier GPS and Aviation Accessories Supplier (http://www.wadeair.com.au/)

Here is the main web site Mr. Funnel (http://www.mrfunnel.com/)


The Mr. Funnel Fuel Filter is a heavy-duty, fast-flow, convenient and portable funnel with built-in, patent pending filter.

The Mr. Funnel Fuel Filter is specially designed to filter out water, dirt, and debris from most fuels including, gasoline, diesel, heating oil, and kerosene. These harmful contaminants can lead your engine to a loss of efficiency, engine shutdown, or even system failure.

[EchiDna]

I think he means this sort of thing

Racor On and Off Highway Turbine Fuel Filter / Water Separator Introduction (http://www.maesco.com/products/racor/r_tbn_intro_hwy/r_tbn_intro_hwy.html)

or even this:

Whitworths Marine: C.A.V. Diesel Fuel Filter (http://whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?item=34306&search123=cav+filter&intAbsolutePage=1)

[dromader driver]

I back the comments on chasing back to where you bought the fuel. I know of one earthmoving company that recoved the significant costs for a Ford Loui or Mack ( can't remember which ) as the ground tank installation allowed water into the tank filler in heavy rain. Site is on the Hume so god knows what it cost them. :mad:

[dmdigital]

Holy crap!

I'm just catching up on threads after all my disasters and stumbled on this one. What's happing to the Landie fraternaty are we all trying to be like Cruiser owners and out do each other's disasters?

I can really feel for you guys especially with what I'm facing.

I really hope you get it all sorted and can still get up to see us later in the year.

Best of luck with everything and I hope it works out OK.

[dullbird]

Holy crap!

I'm just catching up on threads after all my disasters and stumbled on this one. What's happing to the Landie fraternaty are we all trying to be like Cruiser owners and out do each other's disasters?

I can really feel for you guys especially with what I'm facing.

I really hope you get it all sorted and can still get up to see us later in the year.

Best of luck with everything and I hope it works out OK.

mate i'm coming to you even if i have to drag my self there on a skateboard:D...........oh and the wonderful aborginial people let me in:angel::)

[Narangga]

mate i'm coming to you even if i have to drag my self there on a skateboard:D...........oh and the wonderful aborginial people let me in:angel::)

Hope you can make it - especially in the Defender. Look forward to catching up when you do get here.

Cheers

[Redback]

Hi Lou and Ian, sorry to hear the woes with the fender, hope it works out for you and doesn't stop you from taking the fender up to the NT.

Baz.

[muddymech]

thanks barry, we keeping everything crossed, hoepfully talking with insurance assesor today and then things will progress, hoping in a route that good for us.
so glad i got the 90 so i can get to work, even though the battery decided it was a good time to fail.
they say bad things come in threes so we have had two, just waiting for the third now.:(

[Xavie]

I'm surprised it's taking so long for them to decide if it's insured. Is it normal to take this long?

Xav

[incisor]

or even this:

Whitworths Marine: C.A.V. Diesel Fuel Filter (http://whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?item=34306&search123=cav+filter&intAbsolutePage=1)

they are excellent value IMHO

[p38arover]

they say bad things come in threes so we have had two, just waiting for the third now.:(

A pregnant Lou??? :o

[Bigbjorn]

Is this the filter we are talking about?
Racor Diesel Spin-On Series Filters / Water Separators (http://www.maesco.com/products/racor/r_spn_intro/r_spn_intro.html)

What does it do that is different to the TD5 filter as they look similar in operation to me, with the exception of a reusable housing and a clear body to view water buildup.

Racor separators have a centrifugal separator section like Donaldson air cleaners and swirl bowl pre-cleaners. This spins off the water and the larger particles before they reach the filter element.

As to the CAV separator fitted under most Land Rovers (the diesels anyway), do not rely on just draining the water out. Every 10,000 or less if you are getting bad fuel, take off the bowl and clean it out. If you have not done this before, you will be horrified at what you find.

[dullbird]

A pregnant Lou??? :o

you saying that would be a bad thing ron.....................:mad::D

as for xavier, its taking its time becasue we are doing our own research as well at this point before we allow things to roll.....still sorting out where we filled up etc

[George130]

I'm surprised it's taking so long for them to decide if it's insured. Is it normal to take this long?

Xav

Insurance can take it's time.
Last time I made a claim a few years ago it took 9 months because I refused to pay my excess when I was not at fault. Insurance only reacted as I rang to cancel.

[solmanic]

This has just been posted on teh Defender2 forum...

"Technical bulletin has been issued about the fuel system/breather and contamination issues by landrover. Not sure yet what the fix is, but I’m getting a new pump and injectors." (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic396.html)

Probably worth following up - maybe trying to get a copy of the bulletin from someone on that forum. It worked with Scallops and the sump-tech bulletin. He managed to get our local dealer to swap his over under warranty.

[dullbird]

This has just been posted on teh Defender2 forum...

"Technical bulletin has been issued about the fuel system/breather and contamination issues by landrover. Not sure yet what the fix is, but I’m getting a new pump and injectors." (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic396.html)

Probably worth following up - maybe trying to get a copy of the bulletin from someone on that forum. It worked with Scallops and the sump-tech bulletin. He managed to get our local dealer to swap his over under warranty.


hey solmanic thanks for that mate...we also have someone in landrover in the uk chasing up the bulletin if there is one..will email now

[solmanic]

...we also have someone in landrover in the uk chasing up the bulletin if there is one..will email now

Naturally I expect this bulletin will find its way onto our little consumer ant-hill here when you get it...:cool:.

[dullbird]

Naturally I expect this bulletin will find its way onto our little consumer ant-hill here when you get it...:cool:.

of course.....

[muddymech]

for those of you following our pain, landrover have determined its not there fault and nothing wrong with the car so we can pay for it our selves.

will post there reply once its all finished.

[Disco_owner]

for those of you following our pain, landrover have determined its not there fault and nothing wrong with the car so we can pay for it our selves.

will post there reply once its all finished.

Ian , Sorry to hear mate , Did you and DB finally work out which Petrol station you filled up with contaminated Fuel from?

[one_iota]

for those of you following our pain, landrover have determined its not there fault and nothing wrong with the car so we can pay for it our selves.

will post there reply once its all finished.

:(

That is not the news that we were waiting for Ian.

Now I know that you don't fill the tank with the garden hose..after all there are water restrictions in place...what does LR think that you have done?

LR in its wisdom has dropped the water-in-fuel sensor, hidden the single filter/sedimenter behind a shroud tucked up alongside the rear chassis rail AND strategically located the fuel tank breather so that it can capture anything remotely damp and syphon it into a high precision fuel delivery system. Further more to maintain the warranty the fuel filter is drained and changed according to local conditions...ESP needed.

Hang in there.

Looking forward I gather that you have had a chat with Opposite Lock about installing a Lucas CAV/Delphi filter. More please.

[justinc]

for those of you following our pain, landrover have determined its not there fault and nothing wrong with the car so we can pay for it our selves.

will post there reply once its all finished.

That is not the result I expected!:(

Sorry to hear.

PM sent.

JC

[dullbird]

can i just say we are still waiting on paper work.......

so i'm not laying down for them yet

we will call the fuel stations tomorrow and ask if they have had any bad fuel reports between now and feburary...and if not i want landrover to explain how the water could of got there if its not the fuel servo...


i would also like to say if they do say NO way and it turns out to be a fault GOD FORBID THERE WILL BE HELL TO PAY,

[muddymech]

:(


Looking forward I gather that you have had a chat with Opposite Lock about installing a Lucas CAV/Delphi filter. More please.


sorry not got any more info on thats just yet, kinda been down oin the list at the moment. when i do i will post it.

[justinc]

can i just say we are still waiting on paper work.......

so i'm not laying down for them yet

we will call the fuel stations tomorrow and ask if they have had any bad fuel reports between now and feburary...and if not i want landrover to explain how the water could of got there if its not the fuel servo...


i would also like to say if they do say NO way and it turns out to be a fault GOD FORBID THERE WILL BE HELL TO PAY,

Be afraid Landrover, be VERY afraid:mad:

JC

[Xavie]

Just a note on fuel stations and them ever being honest if any one ever made reports about fuel in the water.... They never accept responsibility and they'd never say they had any reports. You would at the least need to take the servos to court before you'd get any slightly honest info.

Xav

[one_iota]

sorry not got any more info on thats just yet, kinda been down oin the list at the moment. when i do i will post it.

That I can understand.

If I can be permitted cynicism...it took a few years before LR engineered a solution for the 300 Tdi timing belt problem inspite of it not being a recall issue.

In the mean time we have to find our own way.

On a lighter note I'm not about to cancel my order.

[rar110]

Delphi filter/water separator housings (no primer) are about $65 at Qld Diesel Spares, looks the same as Whitworths.

[DRS]

DB and Muddy mech,

Sorry to here about the trouble. This is a diesel owners night mare.

What suburb are the Service stations in you use?

Are they big brand or independents?

When I was a in the truck industry years ago this happended a bit from some independents along Canterbury Rd.

It amy also be worth talking to the Motor Transport Association for advice.

Good luck.

Dave

[solmanic]

Watching this unfold is really ****ing me off, so I can only imagine how totally incandescently enraged you must be.

Part of me hopes it was just bad fuel so we can all keep some faith in our machinery and you can have a (hopefully) simple insurance fix-up. But then other parts of me hope it is a Land Rover fault so we can all hammer them for some preventative maintenance and it doesn't happen to anyone else.

...Is there even the slightest chance that some low-life actually siphoned some of your fuel and topped it up with water? With fuel prices the way they are stranger things have been known to happen.

[dullbird]

Watching this unfold is really ****ing me off, so I can only imagine how totally incandescently enraged you must be.

Part of me hopes it was just bad fuel so we can all keep some faith in our machinery and you can have a (hopefully) simple insurance fix-up. But then other parts of me hope it is a Land Rover fault so we can all hammer them for some preventative maintenance and it doesn't happen to anyone else.

...Is there even the slightest chance that some low-life actually siphoned some of your fuel and topped it up with water? With fuel prices the way they are stranger things have been known to happen.

theres a lock on the fuel cap,

and the car only really gets parked on the drive or behind the gates and in a secure carpark at the airport

[one_iota]

This was lifted from the LRO forum (MM and DB should be aware of this):


Models : LD - Defender
Title : SSM 37380 - 07MY Defender Non Start, Rough Running, P0089-7A & or P1169-00
Engineer Name : Darlison Mark
Last Modified : {ts '2008-04-18 00:00:00'}
Category : Driveability
Symptom : 603300 No Start
Content : Issue:
Non start, poor idle, rough running, P0089-7A and or P1169-00 logged.

Cause:
Potential water in fuel tank. A small number of service replacement parts have been returned to engineering for inspection and in each case the breather / vent line has been blocked with water / mud / dirt. A blocked breather / vent line would cause the fuel tank to vent via the fuel cap. Engineering testing has highlighted evidence to suggest water is collecting inside the fuel cap, (via the fuel cap lock barrel), and is then drawn into the fuel tank during the breather / venting process.

Action:
This will depend on the severity of the contamination, the quality of the engine running / performance and whether or not any DTC are logged and what they relate to.
Please follow the steps in the attached pdf doc to determine which course of action to take.

NOTE)
Any vehicle presented to the dealership with DTC P0089 and P1169 must have the fuel pump and rail replaced.
DTC other than P0089 and P1169 are not so important in contamination cases and do not necessarily mean that parts should be replaced. Please follow normal diagnosis procedures for other logged DTC. Please submit an ePQR for reference.
New fuel tank with updated breather location introduced for Defender 90 at Vin 760582. Defender 110 / 130 at Vin 760304. See attached pdf.

Curiously I've not been able to find this on GTR so I can't vouch for its veracity. Although there is a Special Service Message for what to do if contamination is suspected.

[landymad]

Firtsly, Dullbird and Muddy mech, i've been getting more and more angry at the sad state of your defender due to the fuel issue and my sympathies are with you guys. I think you are doing the right thing by getting all your facts straight before going off, as is my experience with these things is that organisations have 1 good listen to you and that's all ( if they listen at all, that is). So it pays to get your argument straight the first time. :D

On a related topic, I had a chat to Sydney Filters about racor filters and the interesting difference between the Racor and the Delphi CAV is in the element.

The CAV filter runs a straight paper element whilest the racor runs a special water repellant element. Neil at sydney filters reported a test he did where he filled both types of element with water. The CAV element saturated and eventually the water started leaking out, but the Racor element held the water like a paper cup.

The thinking there was that if the water doesn't get out of it when it is full like a cup, there's no way that it's going to get through it into your engine.

So, although there might be outward similarities to the Racor and CAV housings, if you really want bulletproof protection, the Racor sounds like the way to go due to it's repellant element.

Having said that, I've got a CAV on my 200tdi, it's always been fine but I will do the water test the next time I go and buy filters for a service. I've never delibrately injected water into my fuel system to try it!

Prices for a racor are: 500FG $375 plust gst or 460R10 $360 plus gst

The 500FG has turbine action which helps separate the sediment even more.

l8r!
Winston

[Scouse]

Curiously I've not been able to find this on GTR so I can't vouch for its veracity. Although there is a Special Service Message for what to do if contamination is suspected.An SSM is generally the precursor to a bulletin. LR are trying to improve the notification of problems to dealers - SSMs are one way to get the info out there. Sometimes bulletins follow going into more detail.

[muddymech]

An SSM is generally the precursor to a bulletin. LR are trying to improve the notification of problems to dealers - SSMs are one way to get the info out there. Sometimes bulletins follow going into more detail.


thanks scouse, lets hope landrover can get there finger out and issue a sb, im close to having to go down the insurance route so i can at least get the car back, problem is the insurance will not help me pursue a claim aganst land rover if its found to be there fault once the claim has started, the other problem i have that was not made clear was that the car still needs to be assesed for the claim, i was given the impression that the claim could go though so it still might end up coming out of my pocket.

[muddymech]

DB and Muddy mech,

Sorry to here about the trouble. This is a diesel owners night mare.

What suburb are the Service stations in you use?

Are they big brand or independents?

When I was a in the truck industry years ago this happended a bit from some independents along Canterbury Rd.

It amy also be worth talking to the Motor Transport Association for advice.

Good luck.

Dave


they are local to me and are the usual suspected culprits that one expects to get bad fuel, one i used as its on a main road so i suspected that the flow of fuel though the pumps would prevent bad fuel, the other is the usual barnd most folks bitch about.
not to say they had bad fuel, but its the only other option if landrover belive that there is no design fault with the breather.
on another note coming from the uk forums anyone else heard of fuel caps leaking water in.
there is an sb in the gtr site but that points to bad fitting by the customer rather than a design fault.

[muddymech]

i'm starting to feel like i'm in a british crime soap and inspector morse will come along soon and fit all these little bits of information together and we get a result, pity it taking two weeks and not one hour to sort.

[muddymech]

This was lifted from the LRO forum (MM and DB should be aware of this):



Curiously I've not been able to find this on GTR so I can't vouch for its veracity. Although there is a Special Service Message for what to do if contamination is suspected.


there is something liek that, in the sb section under drivabilty, its to do with the fuel valve, even the dealer knew nothing of it and was shocked when i showed them

[muddymech]

Firtsly, Dullbird and Muddy mech, i've been getting more and more angry at the sad state of your defender due to the fuel issue and my sympathies are with you guys. I think you are doing the right thing by getting all your facts straight before going off, as is my experience with these things is that organisations have 1 good listen to you and that's all ( if they listen at all, that is). So it pays to get your argument straight the first time. :D

On a related topic, I had a chat to Sydney Filters about racor filters and the interesting difference between the Racor and the Delphi CAV is in the element.

The CAV filter runs a straight paper element whilest the racor runs a special water repellant element. Neil at sydney filters reported a test he did where he filled both types of element with water. The CAV element saturated and eventually the water started leaking out, but the Racor element held the water like a paper cup.

The thinking there was that if the water doesn't get out of it when it is full like a cup, there's no way that it's going to get through it into your engine.

So, although there might be outward similarities to the Racor and CAV housings, if you really want bulletproof protection, the Racor sounds like the way to go due to it's repellant element.

Having said that, I've got a CAV on my 200tdi, it's always been fine but I will do the water test the next time I go and buy filters for a service. I've never delibrately injected water into my fuel system to try it!

Prices for a racor are: 500FG $375 plust gst or 460R10 $360 plus gst

The 500FG has turbine action which helps separate the sediment even more.

l8r!
Winston

thanks you have more than doubled my knowledge.
this must be something like gordon has availabe from opposite lock.
i guess this episode will increae sales, may be i could get some commsion to pay for the repairs.

[spudboy]

Here's a 500FG from a US site on eBay that ship worldwide. US$155 which is about AUD$160 at the moment!

eBay Motors: RACOR 500FG FUEL FILTER WATER SEPARATOR BRAND NEW (item 310067038722 end time Jul-24-08 03:52:23 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RACOR-500FG-FUEL-FILTER-WATER-SEPARATOR-BRAND-NEW_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em144QQcatego ryZ33660QQihZ021QQitemZ310067038722QQrdZ1QQsspagen ameZWD3V)

[TimNZ]

for those of you following our pain, landrover have determined its not there fault and nothing wrong with the car so we can pay for it our selves.

will post there reply once its all finished.


This is just nuts! For LR to just say "it's not our fault" is unbelivable. On one of the other LR forums I watch, (Defender2), there is posts regarding fuel contamination problems, its hardly a one off problem. I really hope a more reasonable end comes to your problem.
I've been getting steadly more and more nervous with my vehicle and don't really need the stress of the "whats that noise" game.
Best of luck to you and DB over this issue, and if I see any other posts on other sites I'll let you know.

Tim

[isuzurover]

Firtsly, Dullbird and Muddy mech, i've been getting more and more angry at the sad state of your defender due to the fuel issue and my sympathies are with you guys. I think you are doing the right thing by getting all your facts straight before going off, as is my experience with these things is that organisations have 1 good listen to you and that's all ( if they listen at all, that is). So it pays to get your argument straight the first time. :D

On a related topic, I had a chat to Sydney Filters about racor filters and the interesting difference between the Racor and the Delphi CAV is in the element.

The CAV filter runs a straight paper element whilest the racor runs a special water repellant element. Neil at sydney filters reported a test he did where he filled both types of element with water. The CAV element saturated and eventually the water started leaking out, but the Racor element held the water like a paper cup.

The thinking there was that if the water doesn't get out of it when it is full like a cup, there's no way that it's going to get through it into your engine.

So, although there might be outward similarities to the Racor and CAV housings, if you really want bulletproof protection, the Racor sounds like the way to go due to it's repellant element.

Having said that, I've got a CAV on my 200tdi, it's always been fine but I will do the water test the next time I go and buy filters for a service. I've never delibrately injected water into my fuel system to try it!

Prices for a racor are: 500FG $375 plust gst or 460R10 $360 plus gst

The 500FG has turbine action which helps separate the sediment even more.

l8r!
Winston

What you are talking about is a hydrophobic filter media. AFAIK there are several manufacturers who maks similar products, and as there are so many different companies that make elements for the CAV, there may be one which uses hydrophobic media.

[solmanic]

I just checked the fuel filter on mine and there was only the smallest amount of water and hardly any sediment in the bottom of my jar (maybe 2-3ml). This would have been since the filter was presumably replaced by Land Rover about 5 weeks ago.

So how much water would be considered a problem?

Also, the Land Rover branded filter clearly has "Fuel Filter, Water Separator" labelled on it so why doesn't that make Land Rover still liable for any damage caused by water getting through it?

[one_iota]

I just checked the fuel filter on mine and there was only the smallest amount of water and hardly any sediment in the bottom of my jar (maybe 2-3ml). This would have been since the filter was presumably replaced by Land Rover about 5 weeks ago.

So how much water would be considered a problem?

Also, the Land Rover branded filter clearly has "Fuel Filter, Water Separator" labelled on it so why doesn't that make Land Rover still liable for any damage caused by water getting through it?

See another service bulletin attached where about 40mm or more is mentioned.

[isuzurover]

Also, the Land Rover branded filter clearly has "Fuel Filter, Water Separator" labelled on it so why doesn't that make Land Rover still liable for any damage caused by water getting through it?

If you put enough water in the fuel it will get past any filter/separator eventually.

[solmanic]

See another service bulletin attached where about 40mm or more is mentioned.

40mm is a LOT more than I have so that makes me feel pretty safe. In any case this looks like exactly what Land Rover have already done on my vehicle in replacing the common rail PRV. They obviously didn't find any water or contamination then because they didn't drain the tank.

[muddymech]

thats 40cc for the tank not the filter i thought.
interesting point on the filter being fuel and water
would check mine but its such a great car the dealer is looking after if for me:mad:

[one_iota]

Now that I have mine one of the first things I looked for was the location of the breather.

For the record, the location on mine has changed and it is nowhere to be seen. Where have they put it?

It is a 01 May Production Date.

[Rosco]

Slightly off thread, but has anyone had any issues with the TD5 Deefer breather hoses. It's fairly well exposed in it's current position but I've not had any problems to date with some moderately deep (900) crossings up the Cape etc.

[one_iota]

Slightly off thread, but has anyone had any issues with the TD5 Deefer breather hoses. It's fairly well exposed in it's current position but I've not had any problems to date with some moderately deep (900) crossings up the Cape etc.

It may be that the location on its own is not the issue. There has been some discussion that the blockage of this pipe together with a change in the specification of the Filler Cap (allowing water in through the key hole under negative pressure) has been the problem.

[dullbird]

Slightly off thread, but has anyone had any issues with the TD5 Deefer breather hoses. It's fairly well exposed in it's current position but I've not had any problems to date with some moderately deep (900) crossings up the Cape etc.

as far as i'm aware rosco the td5 has a one way valve....you will be fine

[one_iota]

as far as i'm aware rosco the td5 has a one way valve....you will be fine

Except that the breather also needs to let air in as the fuel is used from the tank otherwise the tank would implode (I exaggerate to make a point) ?

[discowhite]

the valve in the td5 looks the same as the 07, and it is 2way in opperation. i just went and sucked and blowed ed mine. cap is sealed.

the u turn in the breather on mine is towards the rear, not poniting forward like the 07's (i think?) therefore its slightly further away from the tyre.

i too am myfed as to why the td5's have'nt shown any water ingress if the breathers are identicial.

job for sometime soon, will extend mine up into the cab.

cheers phil

[dullbird]

the valve in the td5 looks the same as the 07, and it is 2way in opperation. i just went and sucked and blowed ed mine. cap is sealed.

the u turn in the breather on mine is towards the rear, not poniting forward like the 07's (i think?) therefore its slightly further away from the tyre.

i too am myfed as to why the td5's have'nt shown any water ingress if the breathers are identicial.

job for sometime soon, will extend mine up into the cab.

cheers phil

i'm sure you told me it was one way the other day!!!

or was that what you thought until you checked it?

[solmanic]

job for sometime soon, will extend mine up into the cab.

Is that wise? Wouldn't there be fuel vapour coming out when filling? (I know it's only diesel, but it can't be good).

[discowhite]

Is that wise? Wouldn't there be fuel vapour coming out when filling? (I know it's only diesel, but it can't be good).


when i fill up all the vapour is coming out the filler, its not petrol!
ide be more worried about the batteries under the seat.
(dont you watch mythbusters?)


i'm sure you told me it was one way the other day!!!

or was that what you thought until you checked it?

it was a guess, i couldnt see why if it were a vlave why it would be 2way.
ide want gas to escape and not water go in. so if its 2way why is it there at all? maybe its a filter??? to filter the dirt from the water:eek:

cheers phil

[one_iota]

Now that I have mine one of the first things I looked for was the location of the breather.

For the record, the location on mine has changed and it is nowhere to be seen. Where have they put it?

It is a 01 May Production Date.

The new breather location is here:

Driver's side rear wheel arch inboard of the chassis rail aft of the rear axle above the fuel tank.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Better?

I reckon that extending all the breathers to the engine compartment fire wall is a better idea.

[TimNZ]

The new breather location is here:

Driver's side rear wheel arch inboard of the chassis rail aft of the rear axle above the fuel tank.

[IMG]http://www.defender2.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10250/IMG_0875.jpg

Better?

I reckon that extending all the breathers to the engine compartment fire wall is a better idea.


Mine's exactly the same, however if you fill the tank "right to the top" fuel leaks out the overflow quite considerably until the fuel level is the same height as the overflow.....

Tim

[dullbird]

Mine's exactly the same, however if you fill the tank "right to the top" fuel leaks out the overflow quite considerably until the fuel level is the same height as the overflow.....

Tim

isn't that what an overflow is supposed to do?

in saying that i'm sure i saw a service message for something like that i will have alook tomorrow might not be for the same car

[scarry]

Mine's exactly the same, however if you fill the tank "right to the top" fuel leaks out the overflow quite considerably until the fuel level is the same height as the overflow.....

Tim

that would be a nuisance......i have filled the d2 up numerous times to the top of the filler spout & never had fuel run out.i will have a look & see where the breather on it is.

i wonder why this trouble has not occured on the td5 defenders.?
anyone got any ideas?

cheers

[TimNZ]

isn't that what an overflow is supposed to do?

in saying that i'm sure i saw a service message for something like that i will have alook tomorrow might not be for the same car

Yeah, I guess so.... However it is supposed to be a breather, not an overflow. It's the first vehicle I've owned that does it.

So long as it only lets diesel out and not water in I guess I'll be happy enough. I'm going to see if I can buy the special tool for bleeding the low pressure fuel system from LR tomorrow so I can at least drain the "water trap".

Tim

[TimNZ]

that would be a nuisance......i have filled the d2 up numerous times to the top of the filler spout & never had fuel run out.i will have a look & see where the breather on it is.

i wonder why this trouble has not occured on the td5 defenders.?
anyone got any ideas?

cheers

Hi Scarry, its the first vehicle I've owned that I can't fill to the brim with out it p1ssing fuel everywhere. But as I said above, if it doesn't let water in I'll be happy enough.
I think the fuel tank and system is completly different to the TD5. As far as I'm aware the TD5 has a LP pump in the tank so it can self purge, (there's even a procedure to bleed the fuel system). No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong ! :)

Tim

[discowhite]

thats BULLDUST!!! you cant have a breather LOWER than the filler!
that completley defeats the purpose, and i bet theres an ADR that covers fuel leakage. any fluid leaking from a vehicle is technically illiegal:mad:

the bend in the pipe is designed to be upright not lying down.

mahn, is that pic from a 130??

cheers phil

[one_iota]

mahn, is that pic from a 130??



No Phil, It's my 110.

[dullbird]

thats BULLDUST!!! you cant have a breather LOWER than the filler!
that completley defeats the purpose, and i bet theres an ADR that covers fuel leakage. any fluid leaking from a vehicle is technically illiegal:mad:

the bend in the pipe is designed to be upright not lying down.

mahn, is that pic from a 130??

cheers phil


like i said i'm sure i have seen a message about the fuel leaking i will have a look and post it up

[dullbird]

like i said i'm sure i have seen a message about the fuel leaking i will have a look and post it up

ok so i have looked

it was for tdi models the breather pipe location to the filler needed to be moved as the fuel returned and damaged the return gasket or something:eek: cant remember now that was 2 and a half minutes ago:angel:

anyway no its not right go get it looked at, for the cost of friggin diesel they would want to fix it:D

[Rosco]

Earlier in the thread there was a comment about "imploding" your tank.
That actually happened to me. Yonks and yonks ago, before I saw the light and the error of my ways, I had an MQ Patrooool. One of my bros and I were coming back from Fraser and unbeknownst to us the breather clogged with sand and jelly fish etc.

Before we realised the problem the fuel pump sucked the tank almost inside out :eek2:.

[dullbird]

Earlier in the thread there was a comment about "imploding" your tank.
That actually happened to me. Yonks and yonks ago, before I saw the light and the error of my ways, I had an MQ Patrooool. One of my bros and I were coming back from Fraser and unbeknownst to us the breather clogged with sand and jelly fish etc.


Before we realised the problem the fuel pump sucked the tank almost inside out :eek2:.

:D:D

[mills rover]

Hi Dullbird
wish all the very best with your problem
its not a nice feeling been told that about your new car
take it easy mill from down south

[justinc]

Just extended the fuel tank breather on a customers 130CC. It WAS sitting attached to the LH end of the rear crossmember outrigger:eek: and is now attached to the rear of the cabguard about level with the bottom channel of the cab rear window;)

What a stupid place/ idea for a fuel tank breather on a vehicle with an electronic / precision fuel system:mad:

JC

[muddymech]

110 sat in our drive

they washed it and put it back together correctly apart from spot lights but that may be a failed relay.

lets see if its all good over next few days.

what a relif, not bad 22 days for a basic service:D

[Narangga]

what a relif, not bad 22 days for a basic service:D

But how many $$$$$$$$$$$$$

Not to mention the grief and pain!:o

[muddymech]

standard service price, the rest was warrenty including a few other things that we have not mentioned.
some things minor but irratating (steering wheel, remote) some but more important (engine rattle, air con) but they were fixed, pity it took so much work and stress on our part to fix just one item.

[justinc]

Glad it is home again you two!, now back to the business of driving and enjoying it!:):)

JC

[Psimpson7]

good news!

[dmdigital]

Good to hear its all sorted. Must be a great relief.

[George130]

Yay it breaths again.

[solmanic]

standard service price, the rest was warrenty including a few other things that we have not mentioned.
some things minor but irratating (steering wheel, remote) some but more important (engine rattle, air con) but they were fixed, pity it took so much work and stress on our part to fix just one item.

You have to wonder about a dealer who phones you to advise you're up for $10K in repairs due to bad fuel, then decides that everythig is all OK once it comes back to them as a warranty repair. :mad: I hope it all stays in good working order and you have no grief down the track.

[Redback]

Good news Ian, very strange though, considering the phone call 3 weeks ago:eek:

Did they explain what the problem was, if it wasn't water that caused it.

Baz.

[bennymv]

I feel your pain muddymech, have just been blindsided myself.

Mid Jan took my 07 defender up to cooktown from cairns along the inland route for its 1st birthday. Filled up before I left and smooth trip apart from the monsoonal rain. Drove around town up there with the heaviest rain I have been in. The next day went for a drive and it starts stalling before giving up to eventually be backloaded to cairns.

Local LRD diagnose busted fuel pump and order one in from UK. A month of inpatient waiting later and another devastating phone call. Rust all through my fuel system with lots of water present.

I can't get my head around it. Contaminated fuel shouldn't allow me to drive to Cooktown. No-one broke into my fuel tanks. The fuel tank breather issue makes sense considering the monsoonal conditions. LRD have now revoked warranty status and made it an insurance claim.

Have made it quite clear that others in australia (and definitely UK) have had similar issues but the LRD deny all knowledge of problems in australia. After suggesting water flicking up into the breather in heavy rain it was suggested i not drive in those conditions !!!

If nothing obvious found and therefore fixed can i trust it again in the bush. Still in discussions with LR customer service

ben

[solmanic]

That makes me furious.
It's not as if there isn't enough freely accessible information from Defender owners across the globe relating to this known problem.

I have been draining my fuel filter/separator every couple of months and photographing the water content to prove to my dealer that this is an ongoing issue, and not (as some have suggested) the result of one bad batch of fuel. Finally, at my last service only a few weeks ago, they capitulated and agreed to shift the breather themselves. Whilst I know there have been many people who have chosen to do this themselves, I refused to as I wanted to be sure that the dealer recognised the problem.

Fortunately I have not had any major problems despite the obvious quantities of water being collected in the filter/separator. After many months of monitoring my own curious engine issue (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/60239-new-defender-strange-engine-noise-paranoia.html), the dealer was finally able to find the fault. Turns out it is a faulty EGR valve and not water-in-fuel related.

[scarry]

...Thought i would reserect this old thread.:D

The fuel tank breather in the MY 09 spec fender,that lobbed in the driveway ,returns to the top of the tank......after 60 yrs:confused:


Anyway good to see an improvement....:p;)

[Grockle]

dullbird re last post,I thought you got this sorted under warranty last year ?

[dullbird]

no no we got it sorted this year or at least we thought we had still got an issue but could well be unrelated.

It took over 1 year to sort the fuel and water problem and related issues not bad hey;)

[dmdigital]

...Thought i would reserect this old thread.:D

The fuel tank breather in the MY 09 spec fender,that lobbed in the driveway ,returns to the top of the tank......after 60 yrs:confused:


Anyway good to see an improvement....:p;)
Are you sure it actually returns in to the tank and doesn't just tuck up above the tank? My 08MY one did this and I have extended it up into the indicator area.

[dullbird]

I thought at one stage they were posting the breather between the chassi the tank and the body.....but not actually into the tank saw that set up on a 130 being preped and only saw it because there was no tray on.....

or can you actually trace it to a point where you can see it go back into the tank.

dont really see how the tank can breath if the breather returns to the tank.

[discowhite]

I thought at one stage they were posting the breather between the chassi the tank and the body.....but not actually into the tank saw that set up on a 130 being preped and only saw it because there was no tray on.....

or can you actually trace it to a point where you can see it go back into the tank.

dont really see how the tank can breath if the breather returns to the tank.
special land rover magic:eek:

cheers phil

[dmdigital]

I was going to ask that question, but thought it was too obvious. Perhaps its a rebreather:confused:

[lambrover]

up here in darwin there have been alot of cars break down because of fuel contamination, the newer common rail engines don't need that much water in the fuel to stuff up, they operate at much higher pressures and need constant uncontaminated lubrication and cooling from the fuel. when you have water in the fuel the lube and cooling properties have gone and the injectors sieze,get hot and the needle and tip try and become one leaving metal from on to an other, all bad. the fuel companys/ servos should pay for it as they should provide clean uncontaminated fuel.

[scarry]

Well,you guys are correct.
The fuel breather runs to a fitting in the top of the tank,but it also has a T in it above the tank.It reduces down to approx 6mm tube on the branch & runs through a tiny filter type thing &goes towards the front of the vehicle for around 6 inches,and then u turns to the rear of the vehicle for around 6 inches.

I did look at it in the dark yesterday:angel:

If i could take a good photo of it i would,but it is hidden above the tank & it wouldnt come out very well.

I still recon this tube should be piped up higher,possibly up behind the rear tail light,as it is not in a good spot for wading:(,nor is the breather for the rear diff.

Anyone noticed the computer thing in the battery compartment,also not a good spot for wading,although the engine ECU is very high up at the rear of the engine compartment,on the firewall.

[LoveB]

Just bumping this up to see if anyone else has gone through it? my 110 is at the dealers now and theyve gone from 'oh sorry its a part failure which we will cover' to 'yeah theres water in the fuel tank so you can pay 10k'

[El Rey]

Just bumping this up to see if anyone else has gone through it? my 110 is at the dealers now and theyve gone from 'oh sorry its a part failure which we will cover' to 'yeah theres water in the fuel tank so you can pay 10k'

Ouch damn, are you in Australia?

[LoveB]

Sydney.

[Disco Muppet]

Surely you go to the servo then now?

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[rangieman]

Just bumping this up to see if anyone else has gone through it? my 110 is at the dealers now and theyve gone from 'oh sorry its a part failure which we will cover' to 'yeah theres water in the fuel tank so you can pay 10k'

Chop`s is ya man ;)
He had injectors and pump replaced under insurance due to water .

[rick130]

Chop`s is ya man ;)
He had injectors and pump replaced under insurance due to water .


Ditto.

My sister has just been through this with her Navarra.
Insurance covered it (eventually)

[Chops]

Surely you go to the servo then now?

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

I did this, and found out that they aren't too forthcoming with info. Unless they've had a major problem resulting in quite a few complaints, and someone's standing like a vigilante at the gate,,, your going to find out squat. You'll need samples etc, and somehow be able to prove when/where it came from.
The RACV came through for me,,, their thing is, "no one means to put water in their diesel, so we'll work with you". I was rapt, and I've still got the pump (which tested 100% good, but LR replaced anyway) and the injectors here at home.

[El Rey]

I did this, and found out that they aren't too forthcoming with info. Unless they've had a major problem resulting in quite a few complaints, and someone's standing like a vigilante at the gate,,, your going to find out squat. You'll need samples etc, and somehow be able to prove when/where it came from.
The RACV came through for me,,, their thing is, "no one means to put water in their diesel, so we'll work with you". I was rapt, and I've still got the pump (which tested 100% good, but LR replaced anyway) and the injectors here at home.

Hi, to make sure I understand - your personal vehicle insurance is with RACV?
If so, I'd hope the fact I'm with RACQ might mean something similar in the event of fuel tragedy.

[Chops]

Yes El Ray, my own, full comprehensive with all the bells and whistles.
The process took something like eight weeks, by the time they'd removed and checked everything. There were a few blews between the two parties about what exactly or how they wanted to go about it, LR just wanted to replace everything, RACV wanted everything tested first.
In the long run, the fix was a new ECU,, the second one installed into the car. I then myself, having well and truely cracked the ****s about timelines, had to get it piloted on a dyno at my cost. It came from them at somewhere around 450klms per tank, after the dyno pilot, back to 600klms a tank.

[El Rey]

Yes El Ray, my own, full comprehensive with all the bells and whistles.
The process took something like eight weeks, by the time they'd removed and checked everything. There were a few blews between the two parties about what exactly or how they wanted to go about it, LR just wanted to replace everything, RACV wanted everything tested first.
In the long run, the fix was a new ECU,, the second one installed into the car. I then myself, having well and truely cracked the ****s about timelines, had to get it piloted on a dyno at my cost. It came from them at somewhere around 450klms per tank, after the dyno pilot, back to 600klms a tank.

Surprise surprise. Land Rover don't want to pay for anything but pretty keen to just go for gold on someone else's coin. Glad you had a big insurance buddy on your side in the end, rather than be left broke and lonely.

[landy]

I think we should all remind ourselves that we are NOT customers of JLR. Ie we do not buy our vehicles from JLR. We buy them from the dealers. The dealers are the customers of JLR.
This presents the Manufacturer, dealership and you with a particular set of problems.
The Manufacturer has to warrant his product but pays the dealership xx per hour to do so. And caps diagnostic times after which they won't pay. They also supply the parts to effect the repair. They will insist that the old parts are kept for a certain period of time and then disposed off, or they will ask for them back for testing. Should they test ok they refuse the claim.
The dealership can charge much more per hour than the factory pays and on sell parts at retail which clearly further adds to the profit margin. Also, it's much harder for you to get your old parts back and have them independently tested. Also, you don't get your car back until you pay the bill, with warranty you hand over the keys in the hope that the factory pays.
Now if you where the dealership wouldn't it be better to charge the owner for the repair and pocket the many more dollars?
Never believe that the dealer or the factory has your best interests at heart.