200tdi or 3.9 Isuzu......

[jerryd]

I've been reading your threads for a while now, and am curious to know the main attraction of the Isuzu over the standard 200 tdi.
Is it the power ??? Reliability ??? Low maintenance ??? Can you please explain what it is or shall I just carry on and purchase the one I've got in mind and find out by myself :D

On a serious note what is the number one fault to look out for ??

[EchiDna]

compared to a 200TDI?

wear in the drive train downstream from the motor...

the 4BD1 has torque to spare, has more power, it's bullet proof, similar efficiency and lasts longer!

on the downside it rattles more and is noisier too!

[kaa45]

If you owned a 4BD1 you wouldn't need to ask :cool:

[JDNSW]

The advantages of the Isuzu compared to the 200Tdi are mainly durability and reliability, with the addition of better low down torque and driveability. (not that the 200Tdi is bad on any of these, although the Isuzu is likely to have twice the life).

The down side of the Isuzu is the vibration and greater weight on the front wheels, which can lead to wear on some front end components and on the gearbox and transfer case.

John

[isuzurover]

The advantages of the Isuzu compared to the 200Tdi are mainly durability and reliability, with the addition of better low down torque and driveability. (not that the 200Tdi is bad on any of these, although the Isuzu is likely to have twice the life).

The down side of the Isuzu is the vibration and greater weight on the front wheels, which can lead to wear on some front end components and on the gearbox and transfer case.

John


That pretty much covers it.

On the matter of gearboxes...
The LT95 4-speed has no problems behind an ISUZU. IME the LT85 5 speed last as well behind the isuzu than the LT77s does behind the 200tdi.

Quite a few people have fitted late model R380s behind 3.9s and they are working well. A couple of people on here have ISUZU boxes, but this isn't the world's easiest conversion, as the box is cable-shift, and you need a serious spacer between the box and the t-case case.


But the bottom line is - drive one and you will FEEL the difference ;) Both in the seat of your pants AND in your teeth :D

EDIT - p.s. - whereabouts in Dayboro are you? Know anyone with the surname Chambers?

[jerryd]

Thanks for the advice, the one I have in mind to purchase has had lots of $$$ spent on drivetrain, axles etc. Until it's on my drive I'm keeping quiet about it though, don't want it to fall into the wrong hands ;) although the deal is as good as done.

isuzurover, I can't say I know anybody with that name although I might know them by sight.

[Taz]

compared to a 200TDI?

wear in the drive train downstream from the motor...

the 4BD1 has torque to spare, has more power, it's bullet proof, similar efficiency and lasts longer!

on the downside it rattles more and is noisier too!

Hang on a minute, I thought Tdi's had slightly more power and torque than 4BD1's. 4BD1T's are a different story!

[Blknight.aus]

when all stock the TDIs all have it over the 4bd1 in terms of max torque and max power......

however that doesnt tell the whole story.. Its the way that the isuzu develops its torque that counts its sort of like comparing a well tuned 2.25 to an old holden 6

sure the holden 6 has it all over the 2.25 BUT....

well tuned and setup the 2.25 starts making usable torque at 500RPM which is conveniently 100 RPM lower than idle.

The best Ive ever seen was a petrol 2.25 5 main that Idled at 300RPM as smooth as butter and would if let up easily on the clutch walk around at those RPMs...

you pick the engine for what you need it to do.

If you want to tow or go off road and you dont mind slow but Must have reliabilty you go for the suzi pushing a 95 if you want it to be faster and can deal with a degrade in low end torque and slightly more expensive maintenance and the potential for more breakdowns then you take a tdi pushing and 85 or an r380. the tdi is marginally more fuel effecient

the TD5 bridges both these motors offering more go more torque and more fuel effeciency but you pay for it in maintenance..

just IMHO...

[303gunner]

I think there's a better supply of spare parts for an Isuzu, too. Things like cyl heads for 200tdi's are virtually impossible to find, even 2nd hand.

[JDNSW]

Hang on a minute, I thought Tdi's had slightly more power and torque than 4BD1's. 4BD1T's are a different story!

You are right, but as Dave says - the numbers don't tell the whole story.

To a large extent, the driveability depends on the shape of the torque curve more than the actual peak value of that curve - high peak torque is not much good if it is available only over a narrow range, and a lower peak torque may be a lot better to drive if it is less peaky. Also important is the torque available at clutch engagement rpm.

While the Tdi is not bad in these respects, the 4BD1 is better, despite having lower torque and power. Ultimate performance of the Tdi is better however, showing up particularly in towing at highway speed - the Isuzu will slow more on hills, particularly with the four speed box, where maximum speed in third is below 100kph. Off road the better torque curve of the Isuzu completely masks the lower peak torque.

The comparison of these two engines is a good example of the fact that just the peak power and torque figures, even together with their rpm, are not the whole story.

John

[mudmouse]

Furthermore and plus.....

200tdi (2.5lt) dragging 2+ tonnes of whatever has a much harder life than a 4BD1 (3.9lt).........:D

[EchiDna]

Hang on a minute, I thought Tdi's had slightly more power and torque than 4BD1's. 4BD1T's are a different story!

okay okay... I guess I should have said 'usable torque' or torque where you need it :)

anyways, the other fellas have given you the G.O. on why the 4BD1 beats the TDI...

[DRanged]

Why would you want a woosy 200tdi that sounds like a Peugoet (did I spell that right) when you can have an engine that sounds like your local fruit truck;)

Justin

[Taz]

Gents,

Crikey - enough of the usuable torque gumf already. There is a device you can use to exploit the torque of even the most narrow of torque ranges - it's called a gear box and a manual Tdi has 10 gears.

I believe your application (what you do with it) drives your belief of which engine is best. I am very happy with my Tdi and I would not prefer an isuzu for what I do. And I'm sure there are many good people who prefer the isuzu over the Tdi. And I think thats great. There are no winners and loosers, both are great engines.

[justinc]

Gents,

Crikey - enough of the usuable torque gumf already. There is a device you can use to exploit the torque of even the most narrow of torque ranges - it's called a gear box and a manual Tdi has 10 gears.

I believe your application (what you do with it) drives your belief of which engine is best. I am very happy with my Tdi and I would not prefer an isuzu for what I do. And I'm sure there are many good people who prefer the isuzu over the Tdi. And I think thats great. There are no winners and loosers, both are great engines.

Good one Taz,

I work on all these engines, and If i was towing a 3.5 ton boat, it'd be the Isuzu no question. If I was touring outback and needed some big payload and ruggedness with good fuel economy and reliability, a 300Tdi 130CC. If I was doing lots of road miles and spent a good deal of time driving, and didn't need heaps of space and carrying stuff etc, a D2 Td5 with a chip would be the bees knees- comfort and performance.

It s all about your needs , they'll all do the job

JC

[jerryd]

Thanks for all the advice and tips, I'm hoping to pick up the new toy in about a week. I'll post some pics etc then.
I've owned a 200tdi, aTD5 dual cab, a Series IIa Dormobile with a Perkins Diesel fitted, and at the moment a Series IIa SWB which is being sold to help fund the new one.
It will be interesting to see how it compares to the above.

[c.h.i.e.f]

i own a 1994 200tdi and must say that it is a way better car to drive than the 1986 3.9 isuzu that is in the family as well , it might have to do with age difference but everything in the tdi is much more user friendly ie: gearbox,steering,comfort etc etc my 200tdi has done just under 230,000k's and feels like it is almost brand new (not sloppy) but i can also say the isuzu has been a good old truck as well but if your looking for somthing with a bit more power look along the lines of the latest 300tdi my old man has a 1998 300tdi and it goes like a rocket compared to the 200 and the isuzu and is also very quiet . after saying that i am looking at in the not to distant future overhauling the old isuzu and i was wondering would anyone hav any sugestions in upgrading performance ?


anyways cheers!

[Dougal]

i own a 1994 200tdi and must say that it is a way better car to drive than the 1986 3.9 isuzu that is in the family as well , it might have to do with age difference but everything in the tdi is much more user friendly ie: gearbox,steering,comfort etc etc my 200tdi has done just under 230,000k's and feels like it is almost brand new (not sloppy) but i can also say the isuzu has been a good old truck as well but if your looking for somthing with a bit more power look along the lines of the latest 300tdi my old man has a 1998 300tdi and it goes like a rocket compared to the 200 and the isuzu and is also very quiet . after saying that i am looking at in the not to distant future overhauling the old isuzu and i was wondering would anyone hav any sugestions in upgrading performance ?


anyways cheers!

Is that old Isuzu non-turbo? If so there's a very obvious upgrade that'll make the 300tdi feel like a slug.:)

[Rangier Rover]

Have just got home with the 4BD1 120. Was a bit nervous jumping in a 19 yr old Land Rover that I didn't know:eek: for a 3&1/2 hour trip in the dark. We made it.:) Just posting this as I noticed on a long hill did not pull well as should with Turbo on it. It pulls well through the gears but won't hold power. At 80kmh in 4th(Santana) can feel a surge then when back of a bit comes clean. Has had new Filters 4000 Kms ago. I have Dyno specs here. when Turbo was fitted. 44kmh= 312nm & 35kw. 52kmh= 330nm & 44kw. 60kmh= 338nm & 54kw. 70kmh= 322nm & 60kw. 82kmh= 296nm & 62kw. 88kmh= 254nm & 61kw.
Was done by Turbo Glide Wollongong. Are these numbers what I should expect? 1st 4BD1 I've ever owned. Tony

PS. I didn't intend to post this on this thread. Sorry:(

[Rangier Rover]

Sorry for posting here. Mods delete if you wish. Tony

[c.h.i.e.f]

Is that old Isuzu non-turbo? If so there's a very obvious upgrade that'll make the 300tdi feel like a slug.:)








well if your implying that the upgrade that should be made is a turbo we already considered that but since the engine has just under 400,000k's we were advised not to turbo without reconditioning the whole engine first then installing the turbo there is also 2 other options we came up with 1: upgrading the injector pump to a bigger sized one or getting a old injector pump of the early isuzu's that came out with the larger pump and 2nd idea was : trying to find a 4bd1T in really good condition and slapping it in but the downfall is firstly never seen or tried a 4bd1T and the second thing is that the santana gearbox in the isuzu is badly matched to the 4bd1 because they just dont hav enough power to utilise all gears properly wat do u sugest ?

[Dougal]

well if your implying that the upgrade that should be made is a turbo we already considered that but since the engine has just under 400,000k's we were advised not to turbo without reconditioning the whole engine first then installing the turbo there is also 2 other options we came up with 1: upgrading the injector pump to a bigger sized one or getting a old injector pump of the early isuzu's that came out with the larger pump and 2nd idea was : trying to find a 4bd1T in really good condition and slapping it in but the downfall is firstly never seen or tried a 4bd1T and the second thing is that the santana gearbox in the isuzu is badly matched to the 4bd1 because they just dont hav enough power to utilise all gears properly wat do u sugest ?

Sounds like a recon could be the first upgrade then.:)
The stock injector pumps (they all seem to use Bosch/kiki/zexel type A pumps, but the governors vary) have heaps of unused capability, but turning up the fuel will do nothing but make smoke unless you've got a turbo to throw extra air in at the same time.

If the compression is good, I'd turbo it regardless of the km travelled. If the compression isn't good, then rebuild it and turbo it at the same time.

[EchiDna]

I've got a santana matched to a 4BD1 (with 'T' added by a previous owner) - it goes fine and has plenty of power, so I'm not sure what you mean by the badly matched comment. I do intend to intercool it someday, but that can wait for now as I rarely get to drive the blardy thing.

[isuzurover]

well if your implying that the upgrade that should be made is a turbo we already considered that but since the engine has just under 400,000k's we were advised not to turbo without reconditioning the whole engine first then installing the turbo there is also 2 other options we came up with 1: upgrading the injector pump to a bigger sized one or getting a old injector pump of the early isuzu's that came out with the larger pump and 2nd idea was : trying to find a 4bd1T in really good condition and slapping it in but the downfall is firstly never seen or tried a 4bd1T and the second thing is that the santana gearbox in the isuzu is badly matched to the 4bd1 because they just dont hav enough power to utilise all gears properly wat do u sugest ?

??? As Dougal said, if it has good compression, turbo it.

I agree with Echidna - the LT85 (santana) box is well matched to the 4BD1. You need to be doing 100km/h or higher to use 5th, but apart from that... A turbo will only help.

My 4BD1 has 340 000 km on it and still runs like new, and uses no oil. I have no qualms about turboing it.

[c.h.i.e.f]

??? As Dougal said, if it has good compression, turbo it.

I agree with Echidna - the LT85 (santana) box is well matched to the 4BD1. You need to be doing 100km/h or higher to use 5th, but apart from that... A turbo will only help.

My 4BD1 has 340 000 km on it and still runs like new, and uses no oil. I have no qualms about turboing it.











as all i mean by badly matched is 1st gear seems to be to high for the engine and yes i would agree that if it has a turbo it would improve things much more but just to be safe i would probably recondition the engine completely and then put a garrett turbo on it (does anyone know wat size/model would match ?) but if not i would probably look for getting a 4bd1T if anyone has an other solutions to get more power out of the isuzu without affecting the long geverty of the engine it would be much appreciated

cheers

[Dougal]

just to be safe i would probably recondition the engine completely and then put a garrett turbo on it (does anyone know wat size/model would match ?)

Why yes.:)
There are a range of turbos that'll work depending on what you want.
I run a T25 with a 0.49 A/R turbine which is as small as you want to go. Heaps of boost, like 16psi from 1400rpm, I run 20psi.:angel:

As you go bigger these are your other options in increasing size.
T25 with a 0.64 A/R turbine
T28 with a 0.64 A/R turbine
T28 with a 0.86 A/R turbine. Isuzurover (Ben) is fitting one of these right now.

[c.h.i.e.f]

Why yes.:)
There are a range of turbos that'll work depending on what you want.
I run a T25 with a 0.49 A/R turbine which is as small as you want to go. Heaps of boost, like 16psi from 1400rpm, I run 20psi.:angel:

As you go bigger these are your other options in increasing size.
T25 with a 0.64 A/R turbine
T28 with a 0.64 A/R turbine
T28 with a 0.86 A/R turbine. Isuzurover (Ben) is fitting one of these right now.











oh ok thanks for the info keep me informed on how the person installing this turbo goes . i would liek to try and match a turbo that deosnt kick in until u start to give it some stick so it can still lug around town like normal but wen u need to pull up hills and over take someone etc etc the turbo can kick in to give it some more bang if thats how i should put it!

[isuzurover]

as all i mean by badly matched is 1st gear seems to be to high for the engine and yes i would agree that if it has a turbo it would improve things much more but just to be safe i would probably recondition the engine completely and then put a garrett turbo on it (does anyone know wat size/model would match ?) but if not i would probably look for getting a 4bd1T if anyone has an other solutions to get more power out of the isuzu without affecting the long geverty of the engine it would be much appreciated

cheers

1st gear is low enough for me, and I have 33's. You could swap the t-case high range gears to 1.22:1 if you want it lower though.

Dougal posted on turbos.

The 4BD1 and the 4BD1T are 99% the same - disregard whoever posted something earlier about not turboing a 4BD1. Plenty have and many run higher than stock boost without problems.

[c.h.i.e.f]

i herd that there is one difference with a stock 4bd1T and just getting a 4bd1 turboed i herd that the stock 4bd1T has a different crank and different pistons ?

[isuzurover]

i herd that there is one difference with a stock 4bd1T and just getting a 4bd1 turboed i herd that the stock 4bd1T has a different crank and different pistons ?

The only important differences between a 4BD1 and 4BD1T are that the turbo model has:
Tufftrided/nitrided crank
"Alfin" pistons - but so do late model 4BD1s
Oil spray to bottom of pistons

Everything else is the same, including compression ratio, etc...

We are talking a 2 Tonne LR here, not an 8 Tonne truck. It isn't like the engine is having a hard life - even when you are like Dougal and thrash it.

[Dougal]

i herd that there is one difference with a stock 4bd1T and just getting a 4bd1 turboed i herd that the stock 4bd1T has a different crank and different pistons ?

The T has a nitrided crank and pistons with a steel ring insert. I'm not sure if the non turbo has those, but the longevity of these engines with aftermarket turbos is well proven.

Diesel turbos work the whole time, the extra boost increases efficiency, decreases smoke and makes it a lot more pleasurable to drive.

[c.h.i.e.f]

The only important differences between a 4BD1 and 4BD1T are that the turbo model has:
Tufftrided/nitrided crank
"Alfin" pistons - but so do late model 4BD1s
Oil spray to bottom of pistons

Everything else is the same, including compression ratio, etc...

We are talking a 2 Tonne LR here, not an 8 Tonne truck. It isn't like the engine is having a hard life - even when you are like Dougal and thrash it.





yeah i see were your coming from but i have no idea were to start looking for engines,parts,new engines etc etc i called a well known isuzu dealer the other day(nsw) and they were not really interested in helping me with anything so wat are you suggestions?

[Dougal]

yeah i see were your coming from but i have no idea were to start looking for engines,parts,new engines etc etc i called a well known isuzu dealer the other day(nsw) and they were not really interested in helping me with anything so wat are you suggestions?

Post up a new thread, say where you're located and what you're looking for.

[c.h.i.e.f]

Post up a new thread, say where you're located and what you're looking for.

ok thanks i will try and do that if i can figure out how to ... oh and one more thing u wouldnt happen to know how/were to get a defender 2008 model bonnet from would you? just curious

[isuzurover]

ok thanks i will try and do that if i can figure out how to ... oh and one more thing u wouldnt happen to know how/were to get a defender 2008 model bonnet from would you? just curious

Again - a new thread would help. And a location in your sig.

Andrew e on Outerlimits bought one (about $1k from LR I think). He was talking about making glass copies.

Dougal - according to my data engines from about '88 on should have the turbo pistons.

[Disco44]

I have owned both .The Izuzu is a great motor with the LT95 behind it but on grades it slows considerably and that why I put a overdrive behind it.The 4 speed just didn't have enough gearing hence the overdrive. The 200 in my defender was ok and had reasonable towing and lugging on grades but all in all the Izuzu was the pick .On my farm I used to pull stumps with it no trouble at all .. it has got grunt to spare but is very B........noisy due , I think , to its long stroke..everyone knows you are in a diesel