Hard Top Side Panels

[landyman]

G'day all,

I've had a browse around this and many other sites, but can't seem to find anything related to my latest task.

I've recently sourced a hard top and side panels with fixed windows for the S2A SWB, not in the best cond. but straight at least.
My plan is to remove the windows and convert it back to a solid side panel.
As I'd rather not take the rivet gun to it, I was hoping to fill the holes by using an aluminium inner sheet fixed to the existing side panel and a filler sheet, for the window cut-out and glue the lot together using Sikaflex 252.

Has anyone tried this with success, are there any implications I should be aware of.

Thanks
Nige:D

[JDNSW]

Never heard of this being done. Mostly you read of people going the other way - fitting windows to solid side panels.

Even more to the point - you don't give your location, so I assume you are in Australia, and to the best of my knowledge, no Landrovers have ever been sold in Australia with blank side panels in a hardtop, and I am a bit at a loss to know why you would want blank side panels. Also could possibly require engineering approval, although since the S2a was mostly sold prior to ADRs, it is a bit difficult to see it being a problem, except perhaps following an accident where poor visibility back and to the side could have been a factor.

But getting back to the original question - as far as I can see, it would work, but would be difficult to get a neat job of the join between the filler sheet and the side. it would be possible to fill the join, but seeing it is a completely flat panel, I doubt it is possible to make it completely invisible. The "proper" way to do it would be to replace the entire panel - it only has simple bends, so it should not be that hard. What I would do, if I had to, would be to simply replace the glass with an aluminium panel cut to size and held with the same rubber. You see this with factory (or at least dealer) van conversions of some Jap station wagons.

John

[landyman]

so I assume you are in Australia
Sorry, Adelaide (user CP updated, thanks for reminding me)

and I am a bit at a loss to know why you would want blank side panels. Personally, I think the fixed windows look tacky and I prefer the van look, plus my dogs are less likely to lick the sides without glass.

The "proper" way to do it would be to replace the entire panel - it only has simple bends, so it should not be that hard. I was reluctant to take the chisel/rivet gun route, I had thought of this, but the glued panel option seemed too straight forward, flushing the outer skin would be no problem as I've got all the metal finish tools.

What I would do, if I had to, would be to simply replace the glass with an aluminium panel cut to size and held with the same rubber. You see this with factory (or at least dealer) van conversions of some Jap station wagons yes and it looks ****house.

Thanks for your reply tho

[Blknight.aus]

I might be in a position to help out here...

kermit had a perfectly straight roof on him and I only need it for a hack trailer conversion im working on...

If your up to flat packing yours and getting it up this way I'll see about doing the same to kermits roof and youve got a good setup....

as I understand it kermits new owner doesnt want the roof as hes planning on rag topping it.

[landyman]

kermit had a perfectly straight roof on him and I only need it for a hack trailer conversion im working on...

If your up to flat packing yours and getting it up this way I'll see about doing the same to kermits roof and youve got a good setup....
how very kind of you sir, but I'm going to give the gluing option a try, just wanted to know if anyone had done it that's all.
However if my attempt is unsuccessful, I may seek you out at a later date, the landy is undergoing a total ground up resto atm and as I'm on a 20/10 roster, it may take a while.
Once again tho, thank you for your offer.

[landyman]

and to the best of my knowledge, no Landrovers have ever been sold in Australia with blank side panels in a hardtop

yes they were, but the model was dropped in late 1996 according to this
4WD: Land Rover: Defender 110 1996 (http://www.ebroadcast.com.au/ecars/LandRover/Defender/1996.html)

[JDNSW]

yes they were, but the model was dropped in late 1996 according to this
4WD: Land Rover: Defender 110 1996 (http://www.ebroadcast.com.au/ecars/LandRover/Defender/1996.html)

Sorry, but the one referred to there had fixed side windows.

To the best of my knowledge the only Landrover hardtops without side windows have been produced for the home market, to meet requirements for commercial vehicle tax benefits.

John

[landyman]

Notes: Also available as cab-chassis; hard-top (panel van) was dropped late 1996 (Aus)

[Aaron IIA]

As far as I remember, the rare SDS military variant had no rear glass at all.

Aaron.

[JDNSW]

Notes: Also available as cab-chassis; hard-top (panel van) was dropped late 1996 (Aus)

I believe the term panel van is used to describe the version with side windows (like I think Incisor has, for example). If anyone has seen one without side windows in this country posting a photo would be worthwhile. Certainly, if they actually exist they must be very rare - even the ones with the side windows are not exactly common.

I have been aware of, and taking note of Landrovers for fifty years, and while I certainly don't pretend to have seen every Landrover type sold here, I would be very surprised to learn there was a solid sided hard top sold in the nineties or any other time. When I started looking at UK Landrover magazines perhaps in the 1980s, one of the things that I first noticed was the prevalence of blank sided hardtops, which caught my attention because I had never seen one.

I actually own a Series 2 lwb with home made windows added to the sides of the hardtop - but I know it is a home market model that came here as a private import.

John

[Psimpson7]

Mine is a Hard top, but that probably doesn't count as its a personal import!

90/110 Hard tops are available through all the european markets at least.

[JDNSW]

Mine is a Hard top, but that probably doesn't count as its a personal import!

90/110 Hard tops are available through all the european markets at least.

Part of the problem in this thread is nomenclature. In Australian terms, hardtop means a hardtop with side windows, and has done so since Series 1. I assume that when you say hardtop you mean a hardtop with no side windows?

Hardtops (with side windows) have been available here at least since 86" Series 1, but as Landrovers have become a niche market here the models sold have become very few.

The main sellers in the last twenty-five years have been the 110 wagon, the 120 and 130 cab/chassis and the 130 dual cab, usually sold with the factory tray but often converted to a dropside tray. Other models have been tried from time to time, with the 110 hardtop (with windows) being probably the best seller, but also 110 cab/chassis and for a short period the 90 hardtop (with windows) was sold. Other short lived models include the 110 dual cab in 1988 and the 110 6x6 in the 1980s.

Apart from military versions, I don't believe any soft tops for example, have been sold in this period. While it is possible that windowless hardtops may have been sold in this period, I have never seen or heard of one being sold locally, and Landrover Australia's attitude to selling small demand variants makes it pretty unlikely - they even dropped the Defender altogether for two years after the Disco was introduced.

John

[UncleHo]

G'day Folks :)

To my knowledge there were no sold sided hard top vans sold in Australia after the start of CKD production in the 50's something to do with Australian content and that included the glass, made under license
also it has a lot to do with safety,& registration regs,and the vehicle classification, private or commercial user, hence Japanese/euro vans being windowless but with removable solid panels for glass, there may have been some solid sided vans brought in in the 50's for particular Govt Depts. but not for general sale.

My advice to you would be to import a couple of solid sides Ex-UK from one of the ex-MOD spares suppliers like P.A.Blanchard,(www.pablanchard.co.uk (http://www.pablanchard.co.uk)) or Paddock spares.(www.paddockspares.com (http://www.paddockspares.com)) they could be sent out as flat packs surface freight and Second hand would be of low cost, so ther would be little or no import duty.

But, I would seriously think about your dogs in an enclosed van body in the Australian summer, as I am a dog breeder and trialer,(30+yrs) and a heat stressed dog is not a pretty sight, and the animal never fully recovers as there is always brain damage, also you leave yourself open to RSPCA/police charges if the animals are left in a locked vehicle. just my humble opinion.

cheers

[Psimpson7]

Part of the problem in this thread is nomenclature. In Australian terms, hardtop means a hardtop with side windows, and has done so since Series 1. I assume that when you say hardtop you mean a hardtop with no side windows?

Hardtops (with side windows) have been available here at least since 86" Series 1, but as Landrovers have become a niche market here the models sold have become very few.

The main sellers in the last twenty-five years have been the 110 wagon, the 120 and 130 cab/chassis and the 130 dual cab, usually sold with the factory tray but often converted to a dropside tray. Other models have been tried from time to time, with the 110 hardtop (with windows) being probably the best seller, but also 110 cab/chassis and for a short period the 90 hardtop (with windows) was sold. Other short lived models include the 110 dual cab in 1988 and the 110 6x6 in the 1980s.

Apart from military versions, I don't believe any soft tops for example, have been sold in this period. While it is possible that windowless hardtops may have been sold in this period, I have never seen or heard of one being sold locally, and Landrover Australia's attitude to selling small demand variants makes it pretty unlikely - they even dropped the Defender altogether for two years after the Disco was introduced.

John

Yep you're right John. Hard Top is the official designation for a van with no windows in the UK.

With windows in the UK it is a station wagon, or county station wagon if the purchaser specified the higher trim level.

Cheers
Pete.

[JDNSW]

Yep you're right John. Hard Top is the official designation for a van with no windows in the UK.

With windows in the UK it is a station wagon, or county station wagon if the purchaser specified the higher trim level.

Cheers
Pete.

Yes, I thought we might have crossed wires like that. Short wheelbase station wagons have always been very rare in Australia, so here station wagon is usually taken to mean a lwb five door, with the windowed hard top simply called a hard top whether long or short. Rear seats in a windowed hardtop, while they exist, have always been rare here.

John

[landyman]

Not sure if it's still relevant (since they were dropped as an import in '96)
but there is an RVD listing for one, although it seem to have no rear windows either, except for the door of course.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/09/694.jpg
Road Vehicle Descriptor (RVD1) (http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au/perl/9419_756891_RVD_15Oct2007143208.cmd)
as you say, they'd be extremely rare,
I'm a Welsh hill farming ex-pat, so I've grown up with Landy's with solid side panels, side windows were only for the county owner's back then.



I would seriously think about your dogs in an enclosed van body in the Australian summer, as I am a dog breeder and trialer,(30+yrs) and a heat stressed dog is not a pretty sight, and the animal never fully recovers as there is always brain damage, also you leave yourself open to RSPCA/police charges if the animals are left in a locked vehicle

my dogs would never be left in the vehicle alone, not only for health related purposes, but if I were to walk away from the vehicle and not let them out they'd let me know about it.
And in summertime the landy is topless anyway, it get's too stuffy for me, even with the safari roof.

[JDNSW]

Not sure if it's still relevant (since they were dropped as an import in '96)
but there is an RVD listing for one, although it seem to have no rear windows either, except for the door of course.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/09/694.jpg
Road Vehicle Descriptor (RVD1) (http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au/perl/9419_756891_RVD_15Oct2007143208.cmd)
as you say, they'd be extremely rare,
I'm a Welsh hill farming ex-pat, so I've grown up with Landy's with solid side panels, side windows were only for the county owner's back then.

I have never seen one of them - the hardtops with windows are rare enough in the 110/Defender. And the fact that a RVD exists does not necessarily mean they sold any at all - they may only have been prepared to sell them, although it is likely that they sold perhaps one batch to a specific customer.

The reason for the popularity of the windowless hardtop in the UK is that having windows changes the tax status. In Australia this has never been relevant, and the preference seems to have always been to have windows.

It is interesting to note how the preferences for different body types have changed over the years. If you go back to Series 1 or even Series 2, probably the commonest model was the short wheelbase, and soft tops were quite common, although hardtops were also common after the 86" was introduced anyway. Station wagons were exceedingly rare, and utilities fairly common, although rare in the swb. Also rare, but not as rare as station wagons were tray tops.

By the time the Series 2a was introduced in 1961, the lwb was becoming more common, as was the dropside tray. By the time the Series 3 was in full swing, lwbs definitely outnumbered swb, softops had become very rare (except for the military of course) and the typical Landrover was either a lwb hardtop or lwb traytop. And station wagons were becoming a little more common. By the time the 110 and 120 replaced the Series 3, sales of the swb had become so small that it was not introduced until over fifteen years later, and then only briefly. The majority of 110 sales were either tray tops or station wagons, with a few hardtops, and possibly a few utes, and, of course, the 6x6 which was available only as a traytop or cab/chassis.

When the Defender replaced the 110, the only models sold were station wagon, now the major seller, tray top, and the new 130 as tray top or dual cab ute. Small numbers of others, such as the hardtop, dual cab 110 and possibly the van have been sold as well, but the market is now almost entirely station wagon, tray top (mostly 130), and dual cab 130, with the wagon being by far the largest seller.

To some extent this reflects Landrover's marketing changing from a serious four wheel drive to a Luxury car, but the trend had started at least from the sixties. To draw a contrast, in 1955 the commonest Landrover sold in Australia was a swb soft top - by 2005 it was a lwb station wagon. (and the people who in 1955 were buying softop Landrovers, in 2005 were buying dropside ute Landcruisers!)

John

[Dinty]

G'day All, I do remember a mate had a 88" with no side windows, it was unusual, and also the Army used them as a delivery van https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/1075.jpg
from the Anzac steel site, so they were here in Oz but most likely not in great numbers, cheers Dennis:wasntme:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The series 2 hard tops in Oz didn't have the small glass panes either side of the upper tailgate at the rear, where the S2a did. But it was very rare indeed for there to be no glass in the sides at all.

[Shonky]

Mine does...

It may have been swapped though. :(

[Lotz-A-Landies]

No offence to you personally Shonky, and you answered the comment yourself.

I always have a giggle when someone says that their 40+ year old vehicle has this "so and so" fitted now so it must have been on it originally.

All I can say is that back in the days when you were a sparkle in dad's eyes or maybe running around in short pants (although I know a few tradies who always wear short pants), I would have given anything to have had a hard top on my 1960 88 and we often had to make them. Of course that was until I started going away with a mate in his 1960 88 hard top, I was usually drier in the rain, warmer in winter and cooler in summer when I rolled up the sides.

It was only when the SIIa were old hat and being wrecked that you could get second hand original hard tops anywhere.

Diana

[JDNSW]

The series 2 hard tops in Oz didn't have the small glass panes either side of the upper tailgate at the rear, where the S2a did. But it was very rare indeed for there to be no glass in the sides at all.


That's right - my 1958 S2 88 hardtop did not have those windows, but I noted that when I had it (1963-5) the new ones did.

John

[Shonky]

No offence to you personally Shonky, and you answered the comment yourself.

I always have a giggle when someone says that their 40+ year old vehicle has this "so and so" fitted now so it must have been on it originally.

None taken. :)

There is a very good chance that over half a century the ol' beast has certainly been mucked with to some extent. I'm not at all suprised. :angel:

[Col.Coleman]

It is interesting to note how the preferences for different body types have changed over the years. If you go back to Series 1 or even Series 2, probably the commonest model was the short wheelbase, and soft tops were quite common, although hardtops were also common after the 86" was introduced anyway. Station wagons were exceedingly rare, and utilities fairly common, although rare in the swb. Also rare, but not as rare as station wagons were tray tops.

John

So what would an original Series 1 trayback look like?
I only ask as I have bought this, and was wondering if it original or more likely a later conversion.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/09/588.jpg

sorry for hijack. I will probably discuss this more when I start a thread about "Mal", but saw it referred to in here.

CC

[JDNSW]

So what would an original Series 1 trayback look like?
.........
CC

As far as I am aware, a trayback Series 1 was never offered by Landrover, even in Australia. Initially it was only sold as a ute, but before long (probably by about 1955 or even earlier) it was sold as cab/chassis. These would have been fitted with a locally built tray by the dealer (or occasionally by the owner - a Series 3 I bought some years ago from the original owner had a owner built tray) - this was common practice for trucks at the time.

So there would be no way of distinguishing the one sold new with a dropside tray from one converted after damage to the rather fragile Series 1 rear tub.

The typical tray would have been mostly wooden, including the frame, with steel fittings. A distinguishing feature compared to more modern replacements is that the frame members and headboard are likely to have been hand shaped rather than left square all over. As far as can be seen of yours this means the tray on yours is likely to have been a later replacement (could still be forty years old!), although this distinction is by no means definite - just depends on the local body builder, and whether he was a new business or an old bloke who did his time as a coach builder.

I hope you tried to find out any history you could from the seller?

John

[UncleHo]

G'day Col Coleman :)

That's a nice dry looking Series 1 107 :) complete with the Side/Overhead motor 2 litre spread bore I think, and a loverly clean straight chassis :D is this an unfinished resto project :confused: lucky, lucky boy, you will have to bring it out to the All British Day at Tennison next Sunday 21st, just put it on a trailer :D


cheers