Repairing Guards

[ellard]

Hi there

As most people would be aware good quality guards are a costly option especially for the early series vehciles (especially 86") - have a question for the forum. Has anyone tried welding the cracks,splits in these guards with a mig using alloy wire.

And if so.....

Do they have any tips/surgestions etc.....

Any any handy hints for straightening, repairing alloy panels in geaneral as I suspect there would be a few keen restorers loving to hear others advice.

Thanks in advance

Wayne

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Wayne

Alu-alloy panels are best repaired using TIG as there is less distortion although it can be done using MIG using argon for the gas. Any distortion can be reduced by normal metal shrinking techniques using an Oxy-Acetylene flame and mallet.

Personally I'm too chicken to try* (even though I have set up my little MIG with the argon and regulator), but a Sydney enthusiast has done a lot of good repairs to a 1953 set of guards.

I have bought a pair or reproduction outer guards from Keith Wadsworth because mine were terrible and at the time I didn't have the contacts I do now. Recently I enquired about also getting a pair of inners for my 1951 and the cost landed was the best part of $Au1,000.00, so that plan went out the window. So I took the current inners to a local aluminium fabricators for TIGing and the result is quite acceptable.

Diana

* what I do with electric welding machines could not be called welding. :D :D :D

[chazza]

G'day Wayne,
I bought a TIG so that I could weld up the splits, but haven't got around to it yet. A cobber of mine who is rather good at welding gave me the following tips:
1. Chase the old corroded metal out of the cracks with a small (about 1 mm) burr, or twist drill. Trying to weld onto corrosion is a recipe for disaster.
2. Using a copper backing plate under the weld pool is a good idea, but not always essential.
3. To control distortion on flat panels make a paper mache mix of newspaper and water in a bucket and build a wet wall of the stuff around where the welding will be done. I have done this on steel door skins with great success.
4. MIG welding aluminium is done at a very fast pace and probably unsuitable for the type of repairs we have to do (I have MIG welded in aluminium, so speak from personal experience)
5. Consider whether the split needs welding at all, or whether a Sikaflex-glued aluminium patch behind the crack would work just as well.

Cheers Charlie

[ellard]

Recently I enquired about also getting a pair of inners for my 1951 and the cost landed was the best part of $Au1,000.00, so that plan went out the window.

Hi there Diana - this is the reason I want to have a go myself, I spoke with Dennis yesterday and he spend 2 whole days on his front gurads on his 107 wagon as the replacemnet cost are beyond most cost wise.


Consider whether the split needs welding at all, or whether a Sikaflex-glued aluminium patch behind the crack would work just as well

Hi there Charlie - I hadnt though about this option, my biggest fear is where most guards crack (where the bolt to the firewall) what is this like for strength.

I will post some pictures this arvo of what I am trying achieve.

Again many thanks for the advice - its appreciated.

Wayne

PS I thing we need a alloy panel fabricator make in Australia..........

[incisor]

there is also alloy silver solder...which gets molten prior to the alloy but you need to have things clean and oxide free..

the backing bar idea works fine as well with tig or mig. you can use a dolly and hammer to normalise the weld prior to dressing and finishing but not too much as it tends to work harden quickly.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi there Diana - this is the reason I want to have a go myself, I spoke with Dennis yesterday and he spend 2 whole days on his front gurads on his 107 wagon as the replacemnet cost are beyond most cost wise.
Wayne

For you 2 days paid work would be just about the cost of getting a pair of guards from Keith Wadsworth wouldn't it? :D ;)

...
PS I thing we need a alloy panel fabricator make in Australia..........
There is, however his focus is working for a living then on making machine parts for historic aircraft and very rare early automobiles (early 1900s) before Land Rovers. It took me 2 years to get a pair of doors - and now almost a year for a narrow transom tub which he now suggests he doesn't like making and won't do any more narrow transoms. He also won't work on aluminium sheet during winter because it is too cold on the fingers, so I can't blame him.

His common statement, is that he would retire and go full-time into fabrication and machine work, but would there be sufficient work out there to give him an income. With all the comments from people that things are to exxy you have to agree with him. :( :( :(

Diana

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Hi there

As most people would be aware good quality guards are a costly option especially for the early series vehciles (especially 86") - have a question for the forum. Has anyone tried welding the cracks,splits in these guards with a mig using alloy wire.

And if so.....

Do they have any tips/surgestions etc.....

Any any handy hints for straightening, repairing alloy panels in geaneral as I suspect there would be a few keen restorers loving to hear others advice.

Thanks in advance

Wayne

The aluminium they use is known as 'Birmabright' and is basically the same material WW2 British planes are made from.
Thing with birmabright is that it needs to be annealed when ever you beat it and brazed to weld.
In the workshop manuals there is a specific requirement for re welding anything. I would look it up but MikeRR has my RRC shop manuals at the mo.
I would contact your landrover dealer and see if they can raise the info from the books.
Alternatively it may be in the Rave CD.
I wouldnt MIG or TIG anything as I know the reference to the welding is by oxy acetylene and particular brazing rods. Heating up annealled ally softens it, a TIG blast may just leave a gaping hole!

[chazza]

Thing with birmabright is that it needs to be annealed when ever you beat it and brazed to weld.

I wouldnt MIG or TIG anything as I know the reference to the welding is by oxy acetylene and particular brazing rods. Heating up annealled ally softens it, a TIG blast may just leave a gaping hole!

I don't agree with you Lovemyrangie when you say that Birmabright needs to be annealed before beating. I have beaten a nasty dent out of one front wing and found it to be very soft; so soft in fact that I put away the hammer and used the dolly to very gently bump the dent up. On the flat side of the wing I stretched it and tried to anneal my stuff up, but only succeeded in making a big depression in the panel :(

My advice is not to try and anneal flat panels and to keep all welding heat to a minimum. The TIG will only blow holes if the voltage is set too high and/or, not enough filler rod is added to the weld pool. I have laid a bead on an old
86" panel with no problems.

Please note that by "anneal" I mean to soften by heating and cooling slowly - perhaps you understand it to mean something else?

Cheers Charlie

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You know it's interesting when people use the term Birmabright they almost never use the grade.

Birmabrite in aluminium alloy is like saying Holden in cars, it could be a Statesman, Commodore or a Barina, the name tells you nothing.

Some of the high magnesium Birmabrites are very brittle and burn easily but some with small magnesium contents are very easy to weld.

In the last week I have had several 3/8" holes on my 1951 mudguards removed by TIG so blowing holes is not an issue done properly.

[101RRS]

Hi there

As most people would be aware good quality guards are a costly option especially for the early series vehciles (especially 86") - have a question for the forum. Has anyone tried welding the cracks,splits in these guards with a mig using alloy wire.

And if so.....

Do they have any tips/surgestions etc.....

Any any handy hints for straightening, repairing alloy panels in geaneral as I suspect there would be a few keen restorers loving to hear others advice.

Thanks in advance

Wayne

Some pages from my 101 workshop manual might be helpful

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[series1buff]

Some of you would have seen the 109" that won the best series 1 at Cooma . I saw the tub in its bare metal unpainted state , just after the professional panel beating job on it. The panels were nice and level .. so it must be possible to panel beat that metal.

As for LR inner guards..as I said before .. nothing complicated about them.. anyone with basic skills could make them up in sheet aluminium. The Lindsay Fox museum employs a guy who hand makes vintage PORSCH bodies in aluminium. He uses wooden bucks and hand beats new guards , with very complex curves in them.

The modern panel adhesives are very good and are used by bus body builders and on train carriages too.

The biggest thing is , time .If you sit down for 6 months and learn metal shaping you can do it... practice is the key . How does Wadsworth do it ? He's human like we are , he's not a alien with superhuman skills. Airframe fiters do all that stuff .. it was an apprentice trade years ago.

Mike

[discomuzz]

Has anyone tried these rods?

Durafix Australia - Aluminium Fluxless Repair Rods (http://www.durafix.com.au/index.php)

Would love to have a go but, no need at the moment.

[RobHay]

Has anyone tried these rods?

Durafix Australia - Aluminium Fluxless Repair Rods (http://www.durafix.com.au/index.php)

Would love to have a go but, no need at the moment.

Just gotta get me some of this stuff...looks to be the bee's knees, cats whiskers, ......unbeliveable.....

[ellard]

Hi there

I have tried these rods - they are great but not alot of strength.

Well after a few hours the guard is starting to look good again.

I am going to try and use the mig (just ordered some aloy wire). I spoke with an olds school panel beater and he recomended small tacks followed by a damp cloth to avoid stretching, also to add a back peice to give it some strenght.

Well heading back to work tommorrow and will give you some feed back next week.

All the best

Wayne

[discomuzz]

...looks to be the bee's knees, cats whiskers, ......unbeliveable.....


Yeah, unbelievable, that's what worries me.

Oh well, for 60 bucks it might be worth having a go.

[JDNSW]

Has anyone tried these rods?

Durafix Australia - Aluminium Fluxless Repair Rods (http://www.durafix.com.au/index.php)

Would love to have a go but, no need at the moment.

The clue is in the words "brazing aluminium". This means joining a metal using a different metal with a lower melting point and lower strength. Not to be confused with welding.

This does not mean that it does not have uses in Landrover body repairs - for example, it would be ideal for filling or patching holes, but would not be suitable for joins where a lot of strength is required, although a well designed patch could use it in this circumstance. One point to watch though, is that the different metal will set up an electrolytic cell to dissolve either the "weld" or the adjoining aluminium if exposed to moisture - so make sure it is properly painted, and avoid beach use!

John

[dennisS1]

Have never had any luck with the magic rods, as for TIG as long as your welder has enough grunt, the Al used is very nice to weld.
Dennis

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

I don't agree with you Lovemyrangie when you say that Birmabright needs to be annealed before beating. I have beaten a nasty dent out of one front wing and found it to be very soft; so soft in fact that I put away the hammer and used the dolly to very gently bump the dent up. On the flat side of the wing I stretched it and tried to anneal my stuff up, but only succeeded in making a big depression in the panel :(

My advice is not to try and anneal flat panels and to keep all welding heat to a minimum. The TIG will only blow holes if the voltage is set too high and/or, not enough filler rod is added to the weld pool. I have laid a bead on an old
86" panel with no problems.

Please note that by "anneal" I mean to soften by heating and cooling slowly - perhaps you understand it to mean something else?

Cheers Charlie

The process of beating it causes it to harden and become brittle to a point where you beat it and it breaks or any stress on it will make it split.
If you dont agree with me then I suggest you speak to panelbeaters who work on any English vehicles, check Rover panel references and do some reading on Birmabright. And yes I do know what anealing means.....


Birmabright (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/tildeLand-Rover/Body/birmabright.html)

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

The clue is in the words "brazing aluminium". This means joining a metal using a different metal with a lower melting point and lower strength. Not to be confused with welding.

One point to watch though, is that the different metal will set up an electrolytic cell to dissolve either the "weld" or the adjoining aluminium if exposed to moisture - so make sure it is properly painted, and avoid beach use!

John

Exactly. This is why Landrover only specify flametip 'welding' ie using oxy acetylene. As birmabright has a magnesium content, this gives it its softness. Any excessive heat or concentrated flame will burn it.

With the electrolytic action, this is also true. There is a specific rod specified for use BY LANDROVER or alternatively you use a strip from an old spare panel.

[chazza]

The process of beating it causes it to harden and become brittle to a point where you beat it and it breaks or any stress on it will make it split.
If you dont agree with me then I suggest you speak to panelbeaters who work on any English vehicles, check Rover panel references and do some reading on Birmabright. And yes I do know what anealing means.....


Birmabright (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/tildeLand-Rover/Body/birmabright.html)

I agree; the process of beating it will work-harden the metal, but that is not what you said in your first post. I took it to mean that Birmabright in every situation needs annealing first, I have found the contrary when beating it myself.

No hard feelings; sorry if I have upset you, just a misunderstanding,

Cheers Charlie

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Thing with birmabright is that it needs to be annealed when ever you beat it and brazed to weld.


No problem here Chaz. Just have a bit of knowledge on this subject and "official" technical reference! :)

[discomuzz]

... The clue is in the words "brazing aluminium".

I am starting to think that an awful lot of the welding I do could be done cheaper, quieter and more efficiently if I brazed !

General stuff of course.

[JDNSW]

I am starting to think that an awful lot of the welding I do could be done cheaper, quieter and more efficiently if I brazed !

General stuff of course.

The major problem with oxy welding aluminium is that there is no visual warning it is about to melt - so it is easy to make an awful mess. With brazing using a lower melting point material, you need less skill. But welding should be as good as new if done properly, where brazing will always be weaker and introduces a metal couple to encourage electrolytic corrosion.

John

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Came across this section in my LR manuals while looking for something else.

[101RRS]

Some pages from my 101 workshop manual might be helpful

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/gazzz21/WeldingLandrovers1.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/gazzz21/WeldingLandrovers2.jpg

Why did I bother posting this back in September when no one looks at it:D

Garry

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

So you did!! didnt see it! Maybe if I did I would have referred back to it as opposed to being told I was wrong!

Guess we're right and they're wrong!!! NER NER NER NERRRR NERRRRR!!! :tease:

[101RRS]

Guess we're right and they're wrong!!! NER NER NER NERRRR NERRRRR!!! :tease:


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