Repairing Guards

[ellard]

Hi there

As most people would be aware good quality guards are a costly option especially for the early series vehciles (especially 86") - have a question for the forum. Has anyone tried welding the cracks,splits in these guards with a mig using alloy wire.

And if so.....

Do they have any tips/surgestions etc.....

Any any handy hints for straightening, repairing alloy panels in geaneral as I suspect there would be a few keen restorers loving to hear others advice.

Thanks in advance

Wayne

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Wayne

Alu-alloy panels are best repaired using TIG as there is less distortion although it can be done using MIG using argon for the gas. Any distortion can be reduced by normal metal shrinking techniques using an Oxy-Acetylene flame and mallet.

Personally I'm too chicken to try* (even though I have set up my little MIG with the argon and regulator), but a Sydney enthusiast has done a lot of good repairs to a 1953 set of guards.

I have bought a pair or reproduction outer guards from Keith Wadsworth because mine were terrible and at the time I didn't have the contacts I do now. Recently I enquired about also getting a pair of inners for my 1951 and the cost landed was the best part of $Au1,000.00, so that plan went out the window. So I took the current inners to a local aluminium fabricators for TIGing and the result is quite acceptable.

Diana

* what I do with electric welding machines could not be called welding.

[chazza]

G'day Wayne,
I bought a TIG so that I could weld up the splits, but haven't got around to it yet. A cobber of mine who is rather good at welding gave me the following tips:
1. Chase the old corroded metal out of the cracks with a small (about 1 mm) burr, or twist drill. Trying to weld onto corrosion is a recipe for disaster.
2. Using a copper backing plate under the weld pool is a good idea, but not always essential.
3. To control distortion on flat panels make a paper mache mix of newspaper and water in a bucket and build a wet wall of the stuff around where the welding will be done. I have done this on steel door skins with great success.
4. MIG welding aluminium is done at a very fast pace and probably unsuitable for the type of repairs we have to do (I have MIG welded in aluminium, so speak from personal experience)
5. Consider whether the split needs welding at all, or whether a Sikaflex-glued aluminium patch behind the crack would work just as well.

Cheers Charlie

[ellard]

Recently I enquired about also getting a pair of inners for my 1951 and the cost landed was the best part of $Au1,000.00, so that plan went out the window.

Hi there Diana - this is the reason I want to have a go myself, I spoke with Dennis yesterday and he spend 2 whole days on his front gurads on his 107 wagon as the replacemnet cost are beyond most cost wise.

Consider whether the split needs welding at all, or whether a Sikaflex-glued aluminium patch behind the crack would work just as well

Hi there Charlie - I hadnt though about this option, my biggest fear is where most guards crack (where the bolt to the firewall) what is this like for strength.

I will post some pictures this arvo of what I am trying achieve.

Again many thanks for the advice - its appreciated.

Wayne

PS I thing we need a alloy panel fabricator make in Australia..........

[incisor]

there is also alloy silver solder...which gets molten prior to the alloy but you need to have things clean and oxide free..

the backing bar idea works fine as well with tig or mig. you can use a dolly and hammer to normalise the weld prior to dressing and finishing but not too much as it tends to work harden quickly.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi there Diana - this is the reason I want to have a go myself, I spoke with Dennis yesterday and he spend 2 whole days on his front gurads on his 107 wagon as the replacemnet cost are beyond most cost wise.

Wayne

For you 2 days paid work would be just about the cost of getting a pair of guards from Keith Wadsworth wouldn't it?

...
PS I thing we need a alloy panel fabricator make in Australia..........

There is, however his focus is working for a living then on making machine parts for historic aircraft and very rare early automobiles (early 1900s) before Land Rovers. It took me 2 years to get a pair of doors - and now almost a year for a narrow transom tub which he now suggests he doesn't like making and won't do any more narrow transoms. He also won't work on aluminium sheet during winter because it is too cold on the fingers, so I can't blame him.

His common statement, is that he would retire and go full-time into fabrication and machine work, but would there be sufficient work out there to give him an income. With all the comments from people that things are to exxy you have to agree with him.

Diana

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Hi there

As most people would be aware good quality guards are a costly option especially for the early series vehciles (especially 86") - have a question for the forum. Has anyone tried welding the cracks,splits in these guards with a mig using alloy wire.

And if so.....

Do they have any tips/surgestions etc.....

Any any handy hints for straightening, repairing alloy panels in geaneral as I suspect there would be a few keen restorers loving to hear others advice.

Thanks in advance

Wayne

The aluminium they use is known as 'Birmabright' and is basically the same material WW2 British planes are made from.
Thing with birmabright is that it needs to be annealed when ever you beat it and brazed to weld.
In the workshop manuals there is a specific requirement for re welding anything. I would look it up but MikeRR has my RRC shop manuals at the mo.
I would contact your landrover dealer and see if they can raise the info from the books.
Alternatively it may be in the Rave CD.
I wouldnt MIG or TIG anything as I know the reference to the welding is by oxy acetylene and particular brazing rods. Heating up annealled ally softens it, a TIG blast may just leave a gaping hole!

[chazza]

Thing with birmabright is that it needs to be annealed when ever you beat it and brazed to weld.

I wouldnt MIG or TIG anything as I know the reference to the welding is by oxy acetylene and particular brazing rods. Heating up annealled ally softens it, a TIG blast may just leave a gaping hole!

I don't agree with you Lovemyrangie when you say that Birmabright needs to be annealed before beating. I have beaten a nasty dent out of one front wing and found it to be very soft; so soft in fact that I put away the hammer and used the dolly to very gently bump the dent up. On the flat side of the wing I stretched it and tried to anneal my stuff up, but only succeeded in making a big depression in the panel

My advice is not to try and anneal flat panels and to keep all welding heat to a minimum. The TIG will only blow holes if the voltage is set too high and/or, not enough filler rod is added to the weld pool. I have laid a bead on an old
86" panel with no problems.

Please note that by "anneal" I mean to soften by heating and cooling slowly - perhaps you understand it to mean something else?

Cheers Charlie

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You know it's interesting when people use the term Birmabright they almost never use the grade.

Birmabrite in aluminium alloy is like saying Holden in cars, it could be a Statesman, Commodore or a Barina, the name tells you nothing.

Some of the high magnesium Birmabrites are very brittle and burn easily but some with small magnesium contents are very easy to weld.

In the last week I have had several 3/8" holes on my 1951 mudguards removed by TIG so blowing holes is not an issue done properly.

[101RRS]

Hi there

As most people would be aware good quality guards are a costly option especially for the early series vehciles (especially 86") - have a question for the forum. Has anyone tried welding the cracks,splits in these guards with a mig using alloy wire.

And if so.....

Do they have any tips/surgestions etc.....

Any any handy hints for straightening, repairing alloy panels in geaneral as I suspect there would be a few keen restorers loving to hear others advice.

Thanks in advance

Wayne

Some pages from my 101 workshop manual might be helpful