The Great LPG Swindle

[pomonastik]

anybody noticed how the updated guidelines documentation from lpg australia, ostensibly liberalised with regard to state of registration etc, have also seen a couple of unrelated phrases deleted to further reinforce the monopoly of the industry to exploit this grant for their benefit and to discourage the private individuals the grant is aimed at ? until 24/09/08 the guidelines contained the following phrases:"Conversions using second hand LPG units are eligible to apply" and "If you do the LPG conversion yourself......."
these references have now gone.
what also appears to have happened is that these changes were not published on time. i accessed their site on 02/10/08, the day before my appointment with a fitter. and the forms and guidelines i downloaded were the older ones before the deletions.

i had followed these previously referenced guidelines to the letter, bought some components used and some new, mounted all the major units onto my vehicle, made the preparatory electrical connections and then arranged for a qualified gas fitter to supply and fit all the high and low pressure lines, check all the components and commission and tune the system. i was invoiced $605 and the fitter signed my grant application forms.

some 20 days after lodgement at medicare (it says 10 in the documentation) lpg australia (aka centrelink) refused my application for a grant. i have challenged them on this and they are squirming fit to bust and keep trying tricks to get me to go away. after reluctantly acknowledging my claim that the older information was all that was available to me at the time of the conversion firstly they tried suggesting that the line about 'converting yourself' actually refered to gas fitters converting their own cars. i pointed out that this was in the consumer guidelines as opposed to the dealer and installer guidelines so they put me on hold for 20 minutes while they thought about it, then came back with the suggestion, in full knowledge of exactly who fitted what, that i approach the gas fitter to alter the wording on the invoice to say "complete installation". whether they meant 'complete' as an adjective or a verb isn't known but as their denial of my claim has seriously screwed up my finances i was prepared to play the game. unbeknownst to me and in direct contradiction of their statement that they could have no contact with the installer direct, by the time i managed to get a call through to him 'somebody' had already put the fear of god into him and he wouldn't have a bar of it. his wife also called me a "dickhead" which was nice ! i suspect they had been leaned on because they'd seemed perfectly amicable previously.
so now i've got to take up my case with the ombudsman, suffer the ignominy of applying for a hardship payment from an association i belong to <u>and</u> be insulted by people who've taken $600+ off me for about $400 worth of work.

the only thing i've got out of it is a better installation than any pro would have done because i fitted things like a stone guard/heatshield to protect the vulnerable areas of pipework, a air meter flap opening device to prevent damage from backfires and used genuine rover type 'rist' heavy-duty soldered electrical connectors throughout instead of cheapo crimp ones.
the single modification the fitter insisted i make to any of my work was to fit a second isolation point under the bonnet to allow the tank valve to be electrically disconnected remotely. he was happy enough with an inline fuse holder cut into the wire using crimp connections and cable tied to a convenient hook. as he is a member of the institute of automotive mechanical engineers who am i to question that for quality? oh, of course, i am but a 'dickhead'. that would explain why i have worked on ferraris , lamborghinis and jaguars professionally and have maintained trucks, buses and a myriad of other cars privately. i'm also an operational firefighter with plenty of experience in the hazards of lpg so the very thought of attempting anything in the slightest bit dodgy is anathema to me. at no time until the fitter made the gas connections and started the vehicle had any gas been anywhere other than in the s/h (in date) tank.

i have since read that the ombudsman has forced lpg australia to reverse several refusals of the grant so there may be some hope yet. the stress my family and i are suffering in the meantime is immeasurable, just trying to keep our heads above the financial waterline because these clowns choose to spend their over-paid time trying to wheedle out of disbursing public funds to exactly the intended recipients. what is perhaps more galling is the apparent intention in modifying the guidelines to increase the chances that the grant actually ends up lining the pockets of the installers. i suppose i'd be drawing a long bow to suggest actual collusion but why the ACCC hasn't investigated the gas industry over their blatant over inflation of parts and installation costs yet is a miracle. how is a 'poorer' australian with a car worth sub $2k supposed to justify capitalising it by a further $3-$4k unaided ? these are precisely the people the government needs to target with assistance to reduce their emissions.

i feel so duped by these events i am cancelling the solar hot water service we were going to have installed in a futher effort to reduce our emissions as i have no faith that the rebates promised by the federal government will ever materialise either.

[JDNSW]

I think they are probably suffering from the fact that the number of applications was far greater than the expected number, so the scheme is way over budget, and they are trying anything they can think of to get the costs down.

Same sort of problems with solar hot water, as you say (looked at this for my son a few months ago) and with solar power.

And, as you allude, with the demand, costs of everything go up. When first announced, I looked at gas conversion of my 110, but found that costs had already gone far above the initial estimates, and there was a shortage of tanks, for example, so I could expect a long wait.

John

[big guy]

Wow.

Was that well written or what!

What escapes me is are you asking for a bigger rebate than what you outlayed or are you just trying to get re-inbursed.

I totally agree that since the gov incentive plan was introduced the cost of installation has definately increased and not just to cpi but to Installer price index. What-ever that is??

I have had 3 done last 3 years. The guy I use does not charge excessive, he also offers to use 2nd hand parts and is a retired engineer and also puts heatshields, guards and all copper lines in.
My last complete installation cost $2150 for a tripple scuba tank in back and a full tank of gas included is the re-tune after 2-3 tanks.
Total cost $150.


I feel for you and definately agree on how this is not helping the truly needy trying to reduce running costsend emmisions.
There are however those that like to do their own install to save even more, get it signed off by a guy who will probably feels intimidated by a possibly superior installation and get same rebate and come out in front.
Is that fair, well I don't know.

Why not rty to re-apply for your total costs including the gas-fitters invoice and all the receipts you have for parts.
This might not total the full rebate but at least you will not be out of pocket bar the time spend.

Best of luck.

[mcrover]

Im assuming here that you were expecting the $2500 rebate in exchange for the $600 bill that you put in..........It dont work that way.

LPG Aust obviously havnt recieved a copy of your trade papers as a mechanic/mechanical fitter and LPG conversion endorsment......:eek:

They then wont know if you are a capable fitter and eligable to getting the rebate.

This is the reason they dont pay people to do thier own conversions, regardless of how well you think you have done the conversion they dont want to pay you to do it as the grants are to help people get their car converted buy a proven qualified and capable installer.

As far as them making a huge amount of money off the parts, the conversion systems offered these days are a lot better quality than they were in the past as well as they are doing mostly vapour injection these days which is more expensive to buy and more labour intensive to fit which also makes it more expensive so the rebate has made the better gas systems affordable.

Your old fasioned vacuum controlled systems (simple or complex) are not efficient, they never were but they were cheap and still are to fit but this is not what is normally quoted these days.

The price of copper, electronics and tanks has also gone through the roof from their suppliers as well.

I think your trying to rort the system a little (intentionally or not I dont know but no offense intended :angel:) by reading more into the guidelines that is really there in reference to fitting it yourself.

As far as the second hand systems go, I was told (and I am a qualified mechanic but not a lot of LPG experience these days) by a highly regarded (in Bayswater vic) gas fitter whom Ive known for 12 years that the only part of a second hand system that a good fitter would install would be an in date or retested tank but also fit a brand new AFL valve.

Good luck with it.

Im not surprised you were told to sod off buy the fitter, if you had taken about a grand out of my pocket I would have told you to sod off as well, I dont think he needed anyone to get in his ear.

He had already done you a favour by signing off your work which is risky to his licence already if something was to happen and then you come in and ask him to lie to the governing body when they already have it on paper what has really happend..........that is called suicide, much like cutting off your own head or in his case canceling his own licence or at best being scrutinised over every rebate he puts through.

Stop trying to get something for nothing as thats not what it is about, this is to help the very people that you are talking about but it's people like you who will ruin it for everyone because you think they should be paying you with our tax dollars for something that your not really elligeble for.

Im sorry for the bluntness of this post but I think you need to hear it so you can look at it from another angle and maybe calm down a bit.

Stress over this isnt really worth it, I know it's a lot of money but in the end it's only money, if you put your self and your familly under stress over a bit of money then your going to be up for a much larger cost.

Definatly by all means push them to the letter of what they have written but be aware that things can be interpretted in different ways and the gov agencies dont do this just to pieve you off, they do it to protect all of our money which include yours.

Mate have a beer destress and go back to work tomorrow and regain the money lost over the next year or so in the savings you will have by having your car on gas and have a good feeling that you know it is fitted properly.

[rovercare]

They don't need any paperwork from him, the install has been signed off by an approved installer, simple, its like roughing in your own house, you can do it, so long as you don;t make any final connections

Majority of gas fitters are butchers, they do hideous things to cars on their installs:(

Plenty of people have got the grant utilising second hand stuff, the bloke local here, who's does tank testing, is one of many

Finding a fitter that will sign is where you did get lucky, they all think they're special here, because they have a licence to butcher peoples cars and won't sign off, even doing as you had, they make ALL final connections, you prep, so they don't, hack holes, tek screw everything, ruin your wiring loom...............:mad:

[mcrover]

They don't need any paperwork from him, the install has been signed off by an approved installer, simple, its like roughing in your own house, you can do it, so long as you don;t make any final connections

Majority of gas fitters are butchers, they do hideous things to cars on their installs:(

Plenty of people have got the grant utilising second hand stuff, the bloke local here, who's does tank testing, is one of many

Finding a fitter that will sign is where you did get lucky, they all think they're special here, because they have a licence to butcher peoples cars and won't sign off, even doing as you had, they make ALL final connections, you prep, so they don't, hack holes, tek screw everything, ruin your wiring loom...............:mad:

Yeah I hear you there Matt, I had an XF PV years ago which we had converted (of course the boss went for the cheapest quote) and he put a screw through the fire wall and into the brake servo.

He actually bypassed the saftey cut out the way he did the wiring and the tank was held in with hose clamps.

The point I was making is they have a reciept which says that the fitter did the final connection and comisioned the system and if then they get paperwork saying something different and saying that he did the entire system for the same vehicle then all it takes is just 1 do gooder in LPG aust to do his/her job and that gas fitter has lost his business.

Im not saying that he has done anything wrong with fitting his own system how he has but you cant have your cake and eat it too.

In other words, he cant save money fitting it himself and using second hand parts and only spending $600 on having it signed off and expect to get the $2500 even though it may have cost him that much, they dont know that.

It is a reimbursment not a payment.

[rovercare]

In other words, he cant save money fitting it himself and using second hand parts and only spending $600 on having it signed off and expect to get the $2500 even though it may have cost him that much, they dont know that.

It is a reimbursment not a payment.

I'm saying he should, its a one off, that figure payment, much like home buyers/builder, baby bonus, you fit LPG, buy/build a house, stick it in the missus and make a baby, you get paid $X

So he's got it signed off, its all legite, so he should recieve the grant

[andrew e]

go easy on him guys, He didnt say the total including parts was $600, he paid that to a gas fitter to get it certified.

The other parts could have cost him another $1400, so i think he should be elligable for the full 2K.

If they go and change the rules without notification, that is not on IMHO (but it may still be legal).

Andy

[mcrover]

Yeah I hear you there Matt, I had an XF PV years ago which we had converted (of course the boss went for the cheapest quote) and he put a screw through the fire wall and into the brake servo.

He actually bypassed the saftey cut out the way he did the wiring and the tank was held in with hose clamps.

The point I was making is they have a reciept which says that the fitter did the final connection and comisioned the system and if then they get paperwork saying something different and saying that he did the entire system for the same vehicle then all it takes is just 1 do gooder in LPG aust to do his/her job and that gas fitter has lost his business.

Im not saying that he has done anything wrong with fitting his own system how he has but you cant have your cake and eat it too.

In other words, he cant save money fitting it himself and using second hand parts and only spending $600 on having it signed off and expect to get the $2500 even though it may have cost him that much, they dont know that.It is a reimbursment not a payment.


go easy on him guys, He didnt say the total including parts was $600, he paid that to a gas fitter to get it certified.

The other parts could have cost him another $1400, so i think he should be elligable for the full 2K.

If they go and change the rules without notification, that is not on IMHO (but it may still be legal).

Andy

Isnt that what I said highlighted in Red.

Im not meaning to have a go at him, Im just saying it how I see it.

I get what your saying Matt but it's not the intention of the whole sceme from how I read it.

I suppose it's an interpretation thing......again :D

[rovercare]

I get what your saying Matt but it's not the intention of the whole sceme from how I read it.

I suppose it's an interpretation thing......again :D

Yep:)

But its a grant, not a reimbursement, remember at its inception, you could get a basic LPG set up for less than 2k and walk away with change, then all conversions went instantly to 2k+, it wasn't a reimbursement, according to the cost of your installation, but a grant of a fixed figure for fitting LPG

[mcrover]

Yep:)

But its a grant, not a reimbursement, remember at its inception, you could get a basic LPG set up for less than 2k and walk away with change, then all conversions went instantly to 2k+, it wasn't a reimbursement, according to the cost of your installation, but a grant of a fixed figure for fitting LPG

Ok, I see what your saying there.

But I also see it from their side as well.

You can still get an old school system here in cranny fitted to an EL for $2100, brand new as the care taker at work just had it done.

Terrible conversion and all cheap crappy parts but still he has only parted with $100.

Sorry for posting that the grant was $2500, it's $2000......my bad...:eek:

[pomonastik]

thanks very much for the considered and, fairly so, varied opinions.
i've just fallen in the door after 2 very long days becoming qualified in the field to operate and maintain a chain-saw (cross-cut), an item which i have never used before in my life. as you can imagine, i'm completely bugga'd. but it does go to show that it is possible for an old dog to learn a new trick and that i'm not a cowboy in any way shape or form. this was a full on, forest industry grade course delivered by bendigo tafe specifically tailored to the otway ranges.

i promise to re-join the debate forthwith but leave you with one initial gambit. the $2000 sum is a fixed sum GRANT and not a REBATE. that is a very important distinction.
meanwhile i shall retire to wash the sweat of my weekend away which, incidentally i've done voluntarily, for nix payment & bring your own food ! (i did say industry quality !)

[mcrover]

The felling course is much more fun and prac if you go onto do that as you have already done 90% of the safety stuff required you just get straight into the good stuff.

Congrats on doing the course, Im sure now you see why I harp on about it so much :D

[pomonastik]

sorry this update has been a while. ironically i stepped out of the aforementioned shower on sunday only to be called out to a reported smell of lpg at a property adjoining a small industrial estate containing the local RACV and assorted motor trade workshops. that meant 15 people spending 90 minutes scouring for the source of the leak. if i really was having and eating my metaphorical cake i would be paid for that ! how much would a plumber charge for that kind of after hours callout ?
meanwhile i have had my 'case' with lpg australia "reviewed" by some one who signs himself Original Decision Maker so you can guess the result there can't you ? so now i have to apply for further review by an "Authorised Officer" who apparently is "someone who has not been involved with your case before". if i was cynical i'd venture that'll probably be their team member who pulled a sickie last week on the day in question. :unsure:
i quote from the review letter:


"I made my decision for the following reasons:
The purpose of the scheme is to encourage the use of liquified petroleum gas as a transport fuel. The purpose of the grant is to provide an incentive for prospective buyers of private use vehicles to purchase lpg vehicles or to convert new or used petrol or diesel vehicles to lpg.
As per the Lpg Vehicle Scheme Customer Guidelines:
An eligible vehicle:
Supplying proof of payment for for (sic) the installation of the conversion kit and did not complete the installation yourself"

mmm. maybe i'm getting senile but nowhere in either the february or september version of the guidelines can i find that quote. when you observe the poor editing of the letter the only impression it leaves is that they are simply making this crap up as they go along !
as a voter and taxpayer i am entitled to at least get the ball bowled at me vaguely down the pitch but this mob seem to have mastered at the chapel school of fair play. :o
so even though i've given up on ever getting my grant i will pursue this whole legislation shambles onwards through the ombudsman in an effort to get some sort of quality assessment audit run over these idiots.

[pomonastik]

further to yesterday's posting i have now obtained copies of the ministerial guidelines, both current and historical. still no mention of a specific preclusion that excludes the individual from doing work themselves !
i've placed the documents below for reference should you be interested.

meanwhile my personal financial circumstances could now be best described as rooted ! the ironic part is that i am being forced ever closer to swallowing my pride and approaching centrelink for financial assistance. as they are the agency behind lpg australia it makes little sense that they are creating the very hardship that will see me cap in hand at their door.

now if i'd pi$$ed a billion dollars up the wall like eddy groves they'd be all over me like a rash pressing cash into my hands ! :mad:

[pomonastik]

LPG Aust obviously havnt recieved a copy of your trade papers as a mechanic/mechanical fitter

macrover, this isn't n.s.w. and therefore, as far as i am aware, there is no requirement for me to have any trade papers in order to carry out mechanical work on a vehicle, commercially or otherwise. obviously any work on the actual gas delivery system is not within my capabilities so that is why i used a 'professional'.

nobody asked to see any 'papers' before i worked on these vehicles:

[Utemad]

It certainly seems to me that they are trying to do you over.

I was annoyed when my quote went from $2500 to $3500 overnight. Same components and installation just $1000 more.

A member of this board told me how when his was converted he went into their shop on one quote and when he tried to pick it up they wanted $1000 on top of that quote. That was right when the grant was introduced. He only paid the original quote of course.

I think the grant should be a reimbursement of costs up to $2000 as opposed to $2000 regardless of if it cost you $5 or $5000. However that is not the case so you should be paid the full $2000.

You mentioned somewhere that the instalation needed to be completed by a licenced fitter. Isn't that what happened? You did some and he completed it and signed off on it?
I can understand they would not want to pay someone who fitted it themselves and then applied for the grant without it ever being signed off but that is not what happened here.
Surely your installation is better than the one done by the apprentice and then checked and signed off on by the licence holder.

[pomonastik]

thanks for the moral support utemad.
so as to make things perfectly clear:
i privately purchased an unregistered parts car from which i took the tank (in date)and mounting hardware, omvl r90 vaporiser, sprintgas electronics box, filler valve and power valve. i also used and fitted the ARB rear bar to mount the filler on. together these cost, as a proportion of the total price paid, about $1300. incidentally i got a gas registered plumber to depressurise and disconnect the components. as he is a fellow firefighter there was no charge for this.
i also bought new an inner wing mounted stop valve and an omvl air meter flap opener. they cost a further $145. i physically fitted all these items into place on my vehicle, taking approximately 5 working days, and using an estimated $50 worth of sundries. at no time was any gas open to the atmosphere nor the electrical circuits connected to 12v.
i then joined the queue for a fitter's appointment. when i finally got one lined up i downloaded a fresh set of forms and guidelines (02/10/08). both these were the feb 2008 dated copies, even though by then they should have been the later ones but obviously the website had not been updated by lpg australia.

my fitter charged me $605 for supplying and fitting all brand new fill/service/delivery lines (both hi and lo pressure), checking the safety of the entire system and starting up and tuning the car. i immediately took the vehicle and paperwork to vic-roads who amended my registration accordingly.

i then went to medicare and lodged the forms for a claim, all duly completed and signed by the gas fitter.

only 20 days later after i telephoned them was i informed my application had been rejected. thats when the problems started. meanwhile the car runs beautifully and having started to use it off road regularly i have since checked all mountings for security.

so all up my costs are $2190, not counting my labour. as a result of my researches on this and other fora i also fitted a new dizzy cap, rotor and spiral wound leads.

[pomonastik]

well i'm not giving up just yet. i've just received a copy of the accompanying faq's to the newer september 2008 dated guidelines. these would be the documents prepared alongside the new forms and guidelines of course. i wonder why they are dated november ?
nevertheless the two moot phrases previously mysteriously deleted from the guidelines have magically re-appeared in the faq's, namely those referring to second hand parts and converting yourself. BUT, and here's the rub:

"If you do the LPG conversion yourself you are only eligible to apply if you can provide proof of payment for the conversion of your vehicle."
when i offered, by way of a concession to the lpg grants processing department to help them out of their pickle, to provide an invoice from myself to myself for my part of the proceedings that was dismissed out of hand as inadmissable as "it won't have an abn number on it", as was my offer to get my private seller to give a written statement of my having bought the parts from him.
i fail to see what veracity an abn number imbues upon these two documents. neither transaction has any gst implications.

i've attached the new faqs so you can all marvel at the dichotomy of the process. i'm beginning to think that what i previously considered merely poor document preparation is in fact deliberately deceitful in intent.

[pomonastik]

by the way, i am now sending the link to this debate to my MP and senator's offices so please hoe in with your comments, good and bad plus any further tales of what you consider rorting by the industry. the government need to see that this much spruiked 'aid' to the public is not reaching its target.
no wonder behaviour change is so hard to achieve in order to reduce our environmental impact.

[mike 90 RR]

the government need to see that this much spruiked 'aid' to the public is not reaching its target.


I read the PDF .... Looks to me that you comply ...

[F4Phantom]

I believe you have been royally screwed by the system, now the problem is you need to fight that system which is very hard indeed, especially if you have no money so you need to focus on other things. From what you say you have pretty much jotted every tittle with regards to law so I think your biggest prob now is getting past people who make the decisions and dont like you.

[pomonastik]

thanks F4Phantom
luckily behind the facade of LPGAustralia lies centrelink. ultimately they are working by public service rules and equally should offer standards of service comparable with a government department. if i were fighting a private company i would have given up long ago but because i have identified multiple flaws with documentation, poor client handling and quite deliberate obfuscation i can keep pressing my point until someone eventually sees sense. money is not an issue here as i can freely access politicians and the ombudsman without any cost to myself other than my time in filling in all the forms and writing the letters. i'm also quite prepared to be disliked.
the other thing i have on my side is knowing that i have acted in good faith at all times and have only sought to do exactly what the original intention of the legislators was. namely, embracing behaviour change. its the biggest buzz phrase of the environmental movement.
by pure coincidence an aquaintance is meeting with penny wong, the minister for climate change soon. hopefully she will be made aware of the difficulties faced by individuals in stopping racketeers plundering all the rewards government is prepared to offer us to make these fundamental changes.

[big guy]

Who can be bothered.
Installers are there to do a specific job, that has been by-passed.

I understand how you feel the need to do a spectacular job to install a lpg system to a standard no other person is capable of. In a car that will probably not comply to emmission controls in 5 years.

You seem incedibly well spoken, read or educated. Spend that time and energy on finding a new carreer path or job that will pay for the in-justice from the LPG experience and GET OVER IT.

Next time, save some money and take it to a reputable installer and be happy.

Like the rest of us.

Seriously, are you the Gordon Ramsay of LPG????

Move on, learn from it and be happy for the time above ground!!!!

[F4Phantom]

Who can be bothered.
Installers are there to do a specific job, that has been by-passed.

I understand how you feel the need to do a spectacular job to install a lpg system to a standard no other person is capable of. In a car that will probably not comply to emmission controls in 5 years.

You seem incedibly well spoken, read or educated. Spend that time and energy on finding a new carreer path or job that will pay for the in-justice from the LPG experience and GET OVER IT.

Next time, save some money and take it to a reputable installer and be happy.

Like the rest of us.

Seriously, are you the Gordon Ramsay of LPG????

Move on, learn from it and be happy for the time above ground!!!!



Installers have been bypassed? Someone had to do the job, does an installer have special qualifications in areas other than an where installer did work? from what has been mentioned I dont think so.

I dont have a problem with people saving money by doing things themselves.

[disco2hse]

"Conversions using second hand LPG units are eligible to apply" and "If you do the LPG conversion yourself......."
these references have now gone.

I know this is coming late and really it has no relevance at all to me. At least you guys are offered a rebate on LPG conversions. But...

Maybe I'm wrong here but wouldn't this be to stop people from double dipping? You know, you buy a unit and get a rebate on its installation, you "sell" the unit to your mate and he gets a rebate, then on to the next vehicle,...

Or, you just install the same system into a succession of vehicles, claiming rebates each time. Using an installer.

Or, you install a system that has previously received a rebate from a vehicle installation into another vehicle, the donor vehicle is a wrecker, and you claim another rebate.

Alan

[pomonastik]

it is interesting how the internet strips people of their identity.
i left the (british) school system in 1979 aged 16 so i am definitely NOT well educated nor well spoken but i have always read a lot.
obviously the industry in south australia is better served than over here in victoria. waiting lists for installations are typically several months. my initial need to 'jump the queue' was based on my particular job needs in that i am returning to regular work next monday manning a fire tower in the middle of a forest. i will need my vehicle every single day for the next 5-6 months. if i hadn't made this conversion happen by now it would not have happened this year at all and i would have continued to pump premium unleaded fumes into said pristine forest for yet another season.
there is nothing 'spectacular' about my installation although my vehicle does becomes my lifeline should the red steer decide to visit my neck of the woods again and for that reason alone i must personally ensure it will not fail me. if it does and i'm burnt to a crisp then i will only have myself to blame. consequently i have to adopt a certain independence from others but at the same time i feel justified in insisting on getting justice from the system so many others are happy to screw to the nth degree. there is no double dipping going on, at least at my end. in fact i'd go so far as to say the reverse is true......i could have quite legally claimed unemployment benefit during the winter, less of course any earnings i could glean. sadly the casual work i used to do servicing italian supercars has dried up in direct correlation to the descent of the stock market index. the only trouble with trickle down economics is when there is a drought there is no flow.
as to the emissions question, its a non starter here in vic as we don't have mandatory emissions testing. besides which the fact i'm now using lpg negates the question anyway. in the wider scope too, the longer i use my 20yr old range rover the less demand there is to build new vehicles, a process which creates far more undesirable emissions than i could ever hope to even if i continued to use it for a further 20 years on petrol.
as to being happy above ground, i think i can safely say that's the one thing i am indeed an expert in. as of monday i will be enjoying a view that you couldn't buy for love nor money up amongst the wedgetails and i'll be earning the princely sum of $22p/h. it's just a shame i'll spend the first 6 weeks or so effectively working for nix while i make up the 'lost' $2k !
all i have to do is spot that little tiny fire that could quite easily become the next ash wednesday and co-ordinate it's demise and i've saved you all millions of dollars in insured losses which you'd be paying for on your premiums.
all i want is a fair suck of the sauce bottle..........

[mike 90 RR]

Installers have been bypassed? Someone had to do the job, does an installer have special qualifications in areas other than an where installer did work? from what has been mentioned I dont think so.

I dont have a problem with people saving money by doing things themselves.

Yes .... The idea is to get everyone onto the Gas System

NOT Specifically for paying a installer .... But a reward & reimbursement for converting

[pomonastik]

mike 90 RR,
i understand you folks in WA get an additional rebate or grant. could you suggest a website that would contain details of this scheme just so i can compare the methodology used to determine entitlement ? i presume you guys pay more for parts etc due to transport costs etc.
....and thanks for your kind words of support through the thread.

[abaddonxi]

Good luck with it, Pom.

Cheers
Simon

[pomonastik]

well it seems as if someone may be listening out there. i flicked on ABC 621RN this morning about 7.15am just in time to hear the end of an article about LPG grants and some sort of problems with lpg australia. as yet the abc website has not been updated to include this mornings transcripts but i will endeavour to post a link to the article as soon as it becomes available.
i can't believe it is a coincidence that in the space of a week there has been a hastily refreshed document released and a radio article about a subject that would normally have little newsworthiness. i will make sure i send a link to this debate to the journalist concerned. it is either lpg australia attempting to get onto the front foot or i'm not alone in feeling there are flaws with this organisation...
watch this space.

[LR V8]

well actually, looks like the MTA has started a bit of propaganda themselves...

ABC (http://abc.com.au/news/stories/2008/11/22/2427004.htm'section=justin)

Although I can't quite follow their reasoning .....

I smell a rat....

Good luck.

Pete

[pomonastik]

yep, apparently i'm now classified as a 'smartie' by the mechanics themselves!
the article would appear to confirm my earlier assertion that $400 is the going rate for fitting a kit ! so who is rorting the system ? i paid $605........
if it works, the link below is to the full programme audio. spool to 12'05" to hear the snow job. according to the print version posted by xxXX_LR V8_XXxx kim carr is now investigating. that's funny because as my senator for victoria i emailed him on monday asking him to contact me. i didn't get a reply but now it seems i'm the one that's set to become a target. thanks kim, i'll remember that come the next time i'm in a ballot box ! (and i thought he might have been to busy to reply because he was singlehandedly 'saving' ford in geelong)



rtsp://media1.abc.net.au/reallibrary/audio/am/200811/20081122-AM-full.rm

[pomonastik]

so now the ABC's radio story has become a TV story and started to spread, seen on the bigpond site too.
'Smarties' rorting LPG conversion rebate - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/22/2427004.htm'section=business)
i must admit it is a beautifully orchestrated bit of propaganda done by pros so the chances that the MTA are the instigators of it are zero. i've done a bit of reading on the hirstute gent seen in the last shot and it would appear he is famed for his ability to destroy those who get in his way by employing sedition and Vyshinsky-esque tactics to demonize his opponents.
well hello ? according to maksim gorky:
"Enemies must be seen as inferior. I believe quite profoundly that the enemy is our inferior, and is a degenerate not only in the physical plane but also in the moral sense".
now i'm all confused........which one is the 'physically degenerate enemy' ?

[rovercare]

Yet another benefit for the "worse off", what a joke, if your "smartie" enough to complete your own install, you shouldn't get it?, your smart enough to earn a good wage, you should pay more Tax, no health benifits, pay medicare levy, people think the baby bonus should have a cut off figure, for lower wage earners...........seem's good to be punished for having a brain:(

[rovercare]

I think grants are a load of crap, personally, I think they all should be canned, but if they are there, I WANT my share, any excuse to get some of my 35k in Tax paid back:twisted:

If the government was serious, they'd subsidise, LPG, remove Stamp duty and subsidise child care moreso, no grants

[pomonastik]

i'm quite aware "canning the grant" is what the feds want to do anyway. they are trapped against the wall of being committed to reducing emissions and supporting working families but knowing full well exactly who has rorted the living daylights out of this grant.(i'll give you a clue, it ain't me. the gravy train only stops at tubbysville)
$2k might only be the average bill for a good night at the Hermitage Restaurant & Wine Bar in Canberra for some.
for me it represents last month's unpaid mortgage payment, a sheaf of overdue bills and the spectacles my optician told me i need to stop the eye strain !

[pomonastik]

oohh, julia gillard says there ISN'T going to be a cabinet reshuffle so in polly-speak that means the knives are out. if kim-il-carr gets the push i might get a more formidable opponent.........
i hope its peter garrett:

"hey, hey-hey hey, therell be food on the table tonight"

is that a core promise pete ?

[ozscott]

I have only read half of this post enough to add this: There are many installers that would not install as well as a mechanic with heaps of time, care, and attention to detail and knowledge of the LPG rules. I dont see why a fitter cannot then sign off on the install - its all there to inspect and see. A fitter will not typically take the care (its time they dont have it usually) to fit cover plates to protect lines, install oversized fittings (as in bolts to hold them in and big brackets) to tanks, customise fillers that are meant to go into the area where the fuel cap is (because most kits do not fit where they should!) and put the converter where it should go, not where it fits without changing things around (ie away from heat but also so its not the highest point in cooling system like so many you see).

When it comes to gas I like the idea that its done properly - and when done so its safer than petrol.

Cheers

[pomonastik]

hmmm, i've done a little research on this mccall character from the mta featured in the ABC's story. it seems disinformation is this bloke's stock in trade. this is from a 2005 article about an insurer taking him and his bully boys to court:


The insurer is taking the NSW Motor Traders Association (MTA) and the Country North Vehicle Repairers Association (CNVRA) to the Federal Court, claiming both the MTA and CNVRA have launched a "public misinformation campaign" against the insurer.

it is nice to know one is not alone in this world........

[pomonastik]

just an update for those who expressed an interest in following the developments in this case. nothing has been heard since this e-mail of 25/11.

Tuesday, 25 November 2008 1:57 PM
Dear Mr Hawkins,
Thank you for your recent enquiry through the AusIndustry Hotline.
In response to your specific query, your request has been forwarded to the LPG Processing Unit for their attention.
Thank you for your enquiry. If there is anything else we may be able to assist you with, please do not hesitate to contact the AusIndustry Hotline on 13 28 46.
Yours sincerely,
Alpana
Team Manager
From: ********@*******.***.**
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 2:16 AM
To: Hotline AusIndustry
Subject: f.a.o. Travis Slater, Lpg Processing Unit
your reference: *** *** *****/QTS529/LPG
dear mr slater
please advise when i can expect the result of the review of my case by an authorised officer as requested 10/11/2008. i am also currently still awaiting the balance of the documentation rquested on the same date.
your attention to this matter is requested at your earliest opportunity as i am enduring continued hardship as a result of the delay in payment of my grant.
yours sincerely
simon hawkins
i suspect that they are holding out in the hope i will go away. they have another think coming. my friend is meeting a government minister tomorrow and will be asking them to view this thread.

[pomonastik]

by way of a lesson i've received in the comparative safety of vessels used to carry ordinary fuels vs lpg:
last monday morning a standard road tanker carrying petrol and diesel in an aluminium tank overturned near lorne on the great ocean road. it would appear the tank structure became compromised by the impact with the crash barrier and in the ensuing explosion and fire unfortunately the driver was killed. it took 45 of us nearly 3 hours to bring the fire under control and to limit the environmental damage.
although i cannot say this for certain i suspect the steel tank an equivalent lpg tanker uses would have remained intact. several years ago an almost indentical rollover occurred involving an admittedly smaller lpg truck and no leak occurred.
i enclose pictures taken on monday.(i'll give you a clue, i'm very tall)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

just an update for those who expressed an interest in following the developments in this case. nothing has been heard since this e-mail of 25/11.

i suspect that they are holding out in the hope i will go away. they have another think coming. my friend is meeting a government minister tomorrow and will be asking them to view this thread.
Well it only took 15 days for them to acknowledge the original request, you can't expect a full response in 10 days.

After all it has to sit in the waiting pile for at least 3 weeks before someone sends you a "the matter has been investigated and the results are with the minister" or something letter.

None of these bodies take any action on your first contact, you should expect to make at least two more contacts on the subject before they will take any interest in your issue.

Keep following it up and don't accept their first shrug off.

Good work so far!

Diana

[Utemad]

Good to see your still pushing.

As for good LPG news, I paid 49.9c/L this morning :)

[pomonastik]

thanks for the support.
rangie is doing well, running up and down to the firetower each day. its almost a better car for the gas as when on the fast, loose climbing sections the slightly decreased power and lack of paranoia about the 'cost' of revs means i'm more inclined to hold it down a gear and keep the revs up. this translates into a better 'poise' and allows sharper engine braking should an oncoming vehicle appear.
i filled it up last night from about half full and got change out of a $20 note !

[PhilipA]

by way of a lesson i've received in the comparative safety of vessels used to carry ordinary fuels vs lpg:
Mate ,I used to live in Bangkok from 88-91. during my time there An LPG tanker overturned off a freeway exit ramp in peak hour.
The valving was torn off the LPG tank.
The gas spread for several hundred metres until it found a charcoal chicken seller .
63 people were killed and 90 injured, incinerated in their cars.
So with LPG the tank does not have to be ruptured , only the valving damaged as it is under pressure and heavier than air.
If you look at the UNEP site under "noteworthy transport disasters" 2 of the 7 listed are LPG related. None are petrol road tanker related.
Regards Philip A

[pomonastik]

i hear where you are coming from regarding b.l.e.v.e.'s with bulk lpg and i 'll readily acknowledge the dangers that occur when the particular circumstances required conspire to create a big, big bang but i reiterate that in the case of the rollover i was at the other night the valving would not have been exposed to the impact damage and the steel vessel would have in all probability remained intact.
both the hazmat codes for petrol and lpg have 'e' as the last letter and they both mean consider evacuation for up to 1km around.
i did say 'comparative safety' and neither situation is a safe place to be but equally properly applied techniques can minimize danger. the most damage done the other night outside of the tanker itself (and of course the poor bugga driving it) was caused by the single compartment of diesel !

[karlz]

The valving was torn off the LPG tank.....


Thats why all our taxis are running on LPG and driven by Indians. :eek:
Reminds me of the Hindenburg exploding, hydrogen rises and lpg sinks.
Lets run our cars on hydrogen instead.

Anyway, pomonastik dont give up. Im feeling for you.

[DeeJay]

Mate ,I used to live in Bangkok from 88-91. during my time there An LPG tanker overturned off a freeway exit ramp in peak hour.
The valving was torn off the LPG tank.
The gas spread for several hundred metres until it found a charcoal chicken seller .
63 people were killed and 90 injured, incinerated in their cars.
So with LPG the tank does not have to be ruptured , only the valving damaged as it is under pressure and heavier than air.
If you look at the UNEP site under "noteworthy transport disasters" 2 of the 7 listed are LPG related. None are petrol road tanker related.
Regards Philip A

I work in the LPG industry & can assure you that if the tanker in Bangkok was manufactured to Australian standards it would not have lost its valving- well it would have- but the Aus standard requires backup internal valving with excess flow valves fitted. So no gas would have been lost from the tank. PLUS Aus standards dictate a thicker barrel.
I might be showing my age but that standard was introduced in the late 70's after a sports car doing the "old ton" down Burwood road Hawthorn went under a LPG semi trailer pulling out of a servo in the early hours

Cheers
David

[LR4WD]

off topic, but how are those tyres going on your bush trails pomonstick.
Rgs, Mike V (LR4WD - still not got that 4.2 apart)

[pomonastik]

how are those tyres going on your bush trails pomonstick.

all good so far LR4WD, i will update the original thread once i've got a couple of months constant use on them.
better go, there's a long ladder waiting for me........

[pomonastik]

righty-ho. its now over 3 months since i applied for this grant. i have survived fiscal meltdown only by putting christmas on hold and literally have had to cut another hole in my belt.
i patiently waited for the centrelink authorised review officer to complete her work and she 'phoned me this morning to say that ausindustry have flatly refused to co-operate in this matter and she has referred me direct to the federal ombudsman.
i spoke with their office today and they are considering the case. whilst only implied, it did become clear that this is certainly not the first case they have had to deal with concerning ausindustry. i was also asked what my desired outcome would be and so i have obviously requested my grant to be paid and a formal apology to be made to my family and myself for the unnecessary hardship we have suffered. i've also expressed my belief that the news beat-up on the abc last year was not just the work of the MTAA but had political input as well from kim carr's department.
i will keep you all posted as to how things proceed from this point.

[pomonastik]

ok, that's it, i've met my match and i give in !
i spoke to the ombudsman's representative yesterday and realised that what i'm dealing with is a cultural divide i can not bridge. he was unable to comprehend that the phrase 'if you do the conversion yourself...' could possibly relate to someone actually doing something for themselves. in his opinion i was a "backyard" bodger and that my claim was as uncredible as, to use his example, someone doing work on their own house rather than employing a tradesman to do it.
obviously an effete, middle-class professional with a hefty salary, he couldn't see that some of us live in a world where the only way we can get things done is to 'have a go' instead of handing money to predatory commercial interests.
all i can say is good on him and i apologised for wasting his time.
as a response i have decided to harden my attitude and my family unit will be henceforth concentrating on paying down all debts we have, refusing to make any retail purchases and winding back all spending to an absolute minimum. this way we can make a positive contribution to deflation and with a bit of luck cause government to start to reduce it's expenditure on professional salaries.
if everyone reduces their debt levels by 5%, $100billion will be torn out of the economy and nullify all attempts to stem the haemorrhaging. asset prices will go into freefall and consequently the capacity to pay wages will be severely reduced.
now before you condemn me as a luddite, just consider what this will do to the values of range rovers ! by next fire season early L322's should be down to chump-change prices......i quite fancy bashing one of those to death on the tracks and then i can give my RRC a bit of a rest.:D
meanwhile those who can turn their hand to anything will be the ones in the box seat.
i can't see myself sitting on the street holding a sign saying:
"will make recommendations aimed at achieving fair, just and lawful administration FOR FOOD"

[mcrover]

Can I say it now.........really......now can I say it........:o



























































































































I told you so:wasntme:

[pomonastik]

sure you can say it mcrover but i can see the price of my house fall by up to 85% and still not be in negative equity. can you ? :toilet:

[PLR]

[quote=pomonastik;893623]ok, that's it, i've met my match and i give in !
ombudsman's representative

G`day ,

Sorry to read you feel that it`s time to end .

Is it not possible to front the actual ombudsman or is the rep deemed as one in the same , if not sure i`d suggest checking because it seems to me you have the information just in need of the right ear .

I`d also suggest it may be worth while starting again with new people , i know this may sound odd but i have found there is more than one person doing any given job , most of the people you Have to talk to find the people you Need to talk to is a waste of time i know and you may already know which level ( the decision makers ) you need to talk to .

On the other hand if your finishing because you`ve had enough of it all i can understand this also .

Anyhow , good upon you whatever you do and if nothing else you probably understand the system a bit better than most ( if that`s actually posssible )

Cheers

[pomonastik]

thanks for your encouraging message of support PLR.
actually the reason i've decided to let it go is that now the weather has finally found it's regular cycle i must focus all my mental as well as physical capacity toward what is really important in my life, namely the protection of my community. for the next 3 to 4 months i need to clear my head of all the crap of everyday life and just concentrate on the very real enemy at hand. it is a kind of zen approach but it has served me well thus far. even the 20 minutes i spent arguing semantics with the ombudsman's rep yesterday was a dangerous distraction from what i do and finding such a lack of perspective in his attitude was really the last straw. any spare daylight hours i do manage to snatch between now and may will inevitably be used up in frantic efforts to keep the rangie in one piece and ready for the next day. last sunday i rebuilt the back end between 5.30pm and nightfall using a few bits salvaged off the wrecker but i really need some new springs and shocks. next thing on the list is tightening up the swivels as the old girl has got a mind of her own over bumps at the moment.
all in all i have learned that it was a mistake to have any faith in 'the system' delivering a fair result and that the current spiral into oblivion it faces should only be encouraged in order to expose the grossly corpulent public service to the realities of the world i already inhabit. once the playing field becomes level we'll find out who the true australians really are. i know i'm fair dinkum.

[Panda]

Digger The "system" and ".gov" is out to screw the working man any way it can...allways has been....

Sorry you didn't get any joy out of the LPG rebate...I don't know about now , seeing as they have apparently change the wording of act, but soon after the rebate came in you could spend $500 bucks on a system put it into a car that had not previously been on LPG and get the full $2000 back. this I know for a fact.

It was not intended as a "re-cope your costs" initiative (as some of the posters seem to think) but as a incentive to do the conversion....

All I can say is dont give up, keep pluging away and good luck


Tony

[mcrover]

sure you can say it mcrover but i can see the price of my house fall by up to 85% and still not be in negative equity. can you ? :toilet:

I dont get what you mean by that, I take it you mean that your little protest of not buying anything is going to have some sort of effect on the economy of this country then I think again you will be very very very dissappointed.

Even if everyone on AULRO cut their spending by 30%, it would hardly be noticed to the economy at large but the members in the smaller comunities would just about drive their shop owners broke.

If you are that disenchanted with the Australian gov then find somewhere that you can fit LPG to a vehical without qualifacations.....maybe Chad or one of those African countrys where they dont have rules....but you also wont get a rebate for nothing.

Im sure they could use a good fire fighter though :D

[bussy1963]

This all sounds like a tight ass pom trying to screw the system for what he can get.

Its like anything you do. Firstly you check for the current information and dont take whats on a web site for granted.

Sometimes they dont get updated.

Its always best to ring the governing body concerned to get the up to dte info.

You lost $ 600 bad luck hope a valuable lesson has been learnt

[pomonastik]

onya' tony. i hope you are not up near that northern flank of sydney. those fires up around mt kurringai can be real ba$tards this time of year. this is the aftermath of the one we pulled up just short of brooklyn in 2002. the second pic is taken at a place called arcadia just as we got ready to come home after 3 days hard graft. ah, happy days !

[pomonastik]

I dont get what you mean by that, I take it you mean that your little protest of not buying anything is going to have some sort of effect on the economy of this country then I think again you will be very very very dissappointed.



from the CourierMail, January 19, 2009 11:00pm
A Suncorp spokesman said the entire lending dynamic had changed in the past year.
"The net effect in the real economy is that business and individuals tighten their spending and move money to debt repayments, which means the economy contracts and it becomes a cyclical issue again," he said.


Can I say it now? really, now can I say it?

to paraphrase arlo guthrie:
"And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said
fifty people a day walking in reducin' their debt by 5% and
walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement"

Touché :Rolling:

[mcrover]

Can I say it now? really, now can I say it?

to paraphrase arlo guthrie:
"And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said
fifty people a day walking in reducin' their debt by 5% and
walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement"

Touché :Rolling:

That really doesnt explain your theory or make any sense.

I have no other debt than my mortgage so does that mean that im causing the worlds monetary problems.

Why not try something that would be usefull and go earn some money, spend it and go do it again.

You are not going to do anything by following your theory other than cause your family more stress and discomfort.

If you want to hurt the gov then vote for someone else or lobby for your cause to your local member.

It's your money and your life but dont go trying to score points on my behalf with garbage like that.

Toche'........if you think so :eek:

[pomonastik]

macrover, you waded in with your humourless, opinionated and know-it-all approach in the first place but as you don't seem to be able to debate on an intellectual level we'll leave it at that and i'd be grateful if you would refrain from wasting any more of your time posting in this thread unless of course you have anything constructive to add.

[rovercare]

macrover, you waded in with your humourless, opinionated and know-it-all approach in the first place but as you don't seem to be able to debate on an intellectual level we'll leave it at that and i'd be grateful if you would refrain from wasting any more of your time posting in this thread unless of course you have anything constructive to add.

I think thats nerd talk for "owned":eek:




:D

[rovercare]

Sad to hear you gave up:(

[mcrover]

macrover, you waded in with your humourless, opinionated and know-it-all approach in the first place but as you don't seem to be able to debate on an intellectual level we'll leave it at that and i'd be grateful if you would refrain from wasting any more of your time posting in this thread unless of course you have anything constructive to add.

:tease: :Rolling: because this thread is :spamsign:

[pomonastik]

because this thread is spam

'tis better to be spam than bully beef anyday !

[mcrover]

'tis better to be spam than bully beef anyday !

So it took you nearly a month to come up with that........geez thats quick.

[abaddonxi]

Somehow I think we've strayed from the topic.

Simon

[mcrover]

But I like bully beef when Im camping, nice easy meal :D

Spams good on bickys for an afternoon snack after setting up camp :D

[pomonastik]

YouTube - Wheeler Dealers Land Rover Range Rover part 1

and


YouTube - Wheeler Dealers - Land Rover 1/5

if you follow through the entire programs on you-tube you'll see the relative success of each different approach to lpg installation. my car has now run faultlessly on lpg for nearly a year now and i have saved an absolute fortune on petrol bills.
if you haven't seen this show before it is well worth a watch of the series these boys have done.