Auto conversion

[cewilson]

I've been thinking about this for a while. My vehicle is a 93 200tDi. What exactly will I need part wise, and approx how much will it cost? I will fit it all myself as it's an easy enough job.

Of the top of my head:

1. ZF? Auto - is the box a different size to the manual - esp length wise?

2. Tailshafts - does it cause a different length to be needed?

3. Mounting points - is it different to the manual?

4. Cooler - where to mount, what type to use?

5. Electronics - obviously the 200tDi isn't - so I'll have to use an earlier box
without the electronics to worry about (well other than the neutral switch)

6. Centre console area - how much do I need to modify etc to make way for the new assembly. Is there parts available or can I do/make something at home to suit?

7. Anything else I've forgotten?

Thanks for any help on this

Cheers
Chris

[Slunnie]

This will be cool Chris.


I've been thinking about this for a while. My vehicle is a 93 200tDi. What exactly will I need part wise, and approx how much will it cost? I will fit it all myself as it's an easy enough job.

Of the top of my head:

1. ZF? Auto - is the box a different size to the manual - esp length wise?
Almost definate that length is the same as the R380, not sure LT77/85, LT95 is about 25mm shorter

2. Tailshafts - does it cause a different length to be needed?
The R380 is the same as the 4HP22, not sure re LT77/85. LT95 is about 25mm shorter.

3. Mounting points - is it different to the manual?
These come off the Transfer case - same as R380 and LT95.

4. Cooler - where to mount, what type to use?
I'll get a pic of what I'm doing right this second. Basically its a D1 ATF.... I think it is anyway, it may even be a PAS cooler, but mounted infront over the steering. This screws direct to the chassis.

5. Electronics - obviously the 200tDi isn't - so I'll have to use an earlier box
without the electronics to worry about (well other than the neutral switch)
Reverse switch, selector wiring.

6. Centre console area - how much do I need to modify etc to make way for the new assembly. Is there parts available or can I do/make something at home to suit?
I'm going from scratch here. New tunnel, but that doesn't mean much.

7. Anything else I've forgotten?
Did the auto ever come with the 200tdi? AFAIK the 200tdi has the old bellhousing pattern that is not compatible with the 300tdi. I'm not sure if there is a 200tdi to ZF belhousing adaption/modification to suit?

Thanks for any help on this

Cheers
Chris

[Slunnie]

Im making assumptions here with the similarities of Series and Deefers.

The cooler I've mounted here:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/1453.jpg


The tunnel implications may relate to the depth of the selector:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/1454.jpg

[justinc]

Chris,

There is quite a bit more involved with the 200Tdi to ZF. They weren't available here in OZ in the RRC or early D1, the adapter plate etc from the 300Tdi to ZF won't fit and the engine is offset in the 200Tdi defender more than the 300Tdi is, and the floor pan and seat box is different to the MA series 1994 onward 300Tdi etc:mad:(Not that is really an issue with an auto conversion)

You CAN do it, as Simon says the shafts etc will end up in the same place and it would be easy to find plenty of room for the cooler etc... it is just a whole lot easier to use a 300Tdi 1994 onward Defender...:( I have done 2 of those and they are a great result as I used a complete Donor Disco for one of the conversions.



JC

[Slunnie]

Chris,

There is quite a bit more involved with the 200Tdi to ZF. They weren't available here in OZ in the RRC or early D1, the adapter plate etc from the 300Tdi to ZF won't fit and the engine is offset in the 200Tdi defender more than the 300Tdi is, and the floor pan and seat box is different to the MA series 1994 onward 300Tdi etc:mad:(Not that is really an issue with an auto conversion)

You CAN do it, as Simon says the shafts etc will end up in the same place and it would be easy to find plenty of room for the cooler etc... it is just a whole lot easier to use a 300Tdi 1994 onward Defender...:( I have done 2 of those and they are a great result as I used a complete Donor Disco for one of the conversions.



JC
JC is it a bolt out/in job to change to a 300tdi in the process?

[justinc]

JC is it a bolt out/in job to change to a 300tdi in the process?

Hi Simon,

Well yes and no.
The engine mounts and the whole position of the engine in the engine bay is different. The 300Tdi sits much further forward, (About 10 inches I reckon:o) and centrally, which means the engine mounts to chassis etc are completely wrong, the bulkhead shape is designed to accomodate the 200 Tdi which is offset to the left (Like a series) and the possibility of the 300Tdi turbo and manifolds getting in the way of the LH inner guard are high unless you take the opportunity to change the position of everything, tansfer case bracketry etc etc to centralise the engine and trans assembly under the floor pan.
If changing to an auto, it wouldn't be that hard really. I wouldn't recommend it otherwise as the LT77 won't fit up to the 300Tdi easily(And why would you???) so you'd have to source a R380 bla bla, easier to just change vehicles in that case:o
In Chris' case, I'd possibly go with trying to source a 200Tdi to ZF adapter etc from the UK, as lots of RRC's prior to softdash were available with this combination AFAIR. It'll look very neat if done this way, and he gets to keep that fantastic 200Tdi engine:)

JC

[George130]

Have a look in my gallery. There is a few pics that show the cab mods.

[cewilson]

So Justin - the hassle as I understand it is the adaptor plate, which can be sourced in the UK?

I thought that the length and the cab were going to be the hassles, but maybe not. Would you just use a box out of a 300tDi Disco for the conversion?

And is the engine offset a problem with the auto box? Or will it still line up Ok?

Cheers
Chris

[B92 8NW]

So Justin - the hassle as I understand it is the adaptor plate, which can be sourced in the UK?

I thought that the length and the cab were going to be the hassles, but maybe not. Would you just use a box out of a 300tDi Disco for the conversion?

And is the engine offset a problem with the auto box? Or will it still line up Ok?

Cheers
Chris

ERR4612, adaptor plate, 200Tdi to automatic gearbox. Like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

[cewilson]

I've read on a couple of the english sites that the 200tDi mated to the auto is very sluggish, as opposed to the manual.

Does anyone here know anything about this? Or is it another case of people commenting on something they've never tried or owned themself?

Cheers
Chris

[mcrover]

I've read on a couple of the english sites that the 200tDi mated to the auto is very sluggish, as opposed to the manual.

Does anyone here know anything about this? Or is it another case of people commenting on something they've never tried or owned themself?

Cheers
Chris

I doubt that anyne over here would know but all I could say is that the only 200Tdi I have driven (in a manual) was brand new and with a 20 odd' van on the back it was a low range start on hills and just slowly cruise up the hill until you found somewhere flat and then stop, put back in high and start again.

Once moving I think it pulled better than the 300Tdi we tried the following week but that was a 130 not a 110 but both were tray backs.

I'd be thinking that like the 300Tdi+ZF, it would be a pretty good combo and probably better in some ways than the manual.

[cewilson]

I'm going to have to work out ratio's for it. I am running the Disco high range gears in the transfer case at the moment, so it should hopefully be very similar to a standard 200tDi Disco ratio.

Cheers
Chris

[Scouse]

I've read on a couple of the english sites that the 200tDi mated to the auto is very sluggish, as opposed to the manual.

Does anyone here know anything about this? Or is it another case of people commenting on something they've never tried or owned themself?

Cheers
ChrisThere was one 200tdi auto Disco out here in 1993/1994 for evaluation by LR. It was driven by a friend of mine who was quite surprised how well it went on his 160km daily commute.

I didn't drive the car myself so I can't say how it compares to the 300tdi autos.

[justinc]

Chris I would swap back to the 1.410:1 transfer gears as the auto goes really well in front of the standard defer TC. It hits 4th lockup earlier, and the 3rd gear lockup mod makes them perform like a manual on the highway. You'll find that the OD in lockup is higher geared than the 5spd in top, and this will mean sluggish performance when in 4th lockup with the disco high range gearing and 235/85/16 tyres. However The 3rd gear lockup mod allows for you to have similar ratios as 4th gear with your LT77, at about 70km/hr.

You'll be happy with the auto conversion:):)

JC

[Reads90]

I've read on a couple of the english sites that the 200tDi mated to the auto is very sluggish, as opposed to the manual.

Does anyone here know anything about this? Or is it another case of people commenting on something they've never tried or owned themself?

Cheers
Chris

I know that The 200 TDi Auto box makes a 300TDi go really well. and that is the most done conversion

[mcrover]

Chris I would swap back to the 1.410:1 transfer gears as the auto goes really well in front of the standard defer TC. It hits 4th lockup earlier, and the 3rd gear lockup mod makes them perform like a manual on the highway. You'll find that the OD in lockup is higher geared than the 5spd in top, and this will mean sluggish performance when in 4th lockup with the disco high range gearing and 235/85/16 tyres. However The 3rd gear lockup mod allows for you to have similar ratios as 4th gear with your LT77, at about 70km/hr.

You'll be happy with the auto conversion:):)

JC

This is why I woud like to go a Deefa TC in my Disco seems I run 235 85 16s on my disco.

[Slunnie]

I know that The 200 TDi Auto box makes a 300TDi go really well. and that is the most done conversion
Did the 200tdi still run the ZF 4HP22 but with different gear ratios?

[cewilson]

Did the 200tdi still run the ZF 4HP22 but with different gear ratios?


The gearbox, transfer case and diffs are still the same ratio. I have heard this a few times, but I really don't understand why.

The only thing that i can think of is maybe the valve body is different between a couple of years of the box?

[cewilson]

I did some calculating today with regards to ratio's.

Diff - 3.54:1
Transfer High - 1.22:1 (Disco high range)
Transfer Low - 4.34:1 (Maxi-Drive low range).

Comparing the two boxes (LT77S in black, ZF4HP22 in blue):
Note - these figures below are the total ratio in each gear, inc the transfer case, diff and tyre diameter.

High Range -
1st - 15.95 10.71
2nd - 9.21 6.39
3rd - 6.03 4.32
4th - 4.32 3.14
5th - 3.33
Reverse - 14.81 9.01

Low Range -
1st - 56.72 38.1
2nd - 32.75 22.74
3rd - 21.46 15.36
4th - 16.36 11.18
5th - 11.83
Reverse - 52.68 32.05

So the easy way of explaining all of the above - is that off-road this change would hurt me.

Now looking at the road side of things, I found the following applies when in top gear (LT77S in black, ZF4HP22 in blue):

80km/h - 1887RPM 1655RPM
100km/h - 2358RPM 2069RPM
110km/h - 2595RPM 2276RPM

So JC, yeah I agree with you that I might need to look at the Defender high range again.

To be quite honest, I think the easiest (and cheapest) way of getting an automatic in a Defender would be with a 300tDi. In my case it's going to end up being a hassle, and more importantly it looks like it'll actually hurt my off-road performance. AND I AIN"T DOING THAT!!!!!:mad:

Bugger
Chris

[Slunnie]

So the easy way of explaining all of the above - is that off-road this change would hurt me.

Chris thats not necessarily the case because the ZF 4HP22 locks up the torque converter in 4th at over 80km/h, so where the gearing appears mismatched you need to also factor in the torque multiplication. The area where you will lose somthing is engine braking - but when things are that greasy that you need it, then the auto still has enough, especially with MDE 30%'s!

[cewilson]

Chris thats not necessarily the case because the ZF 4HP22 locks up the torque converter in 4th at over 80km/h, so where the gearing appears mismatched you need to also factor in the torque multiplication. The area where you will lose somthing is engine braking - but when things are that greasy that you need it, then the auto still has enough, especially with MDE 30%'s!


38:1 is going back to where I used to be standard. You know what I play with at the best of times? It is something that's worrying me, as I do put a lot of emphasis on safety. And I'm not convinced that 38:1 going downhill in the VIC High Country or Mt Selwyn etc in the snow/mud is going to be that much fun! :twisted:

[mcrover]

Ummmmm, ever though of pulling the hand brake on a couple of clicks for that 1 or 2 odd occasions that you would need to creep down something that slow.

Even the foot brake and drive through it to keep the converter working.

There is no real life situation which cant be worked around in a safe and relatively simple way.

I can tell you that even on 31's, my engine braking is still better than a standard Hilux or GQ pootrol in low range, my mates are always hanging right back on long decents and I just let it go and by the bottom they are hitting the brakes in thier manuals and on the radio for me to speed up so it cant be that bad.

[cewilson]

Ummmmm, ever though of pulling the hand brake on a couple of clicks for that 1 or 2 odd occasions that you would need to creep down something that slow.

Even the foot brake and drive through it to keep the converter working.

There is no real life situation which cant be worked around in a safe and relatively simple way.

I can tell you that even on 31's, my engine braking is still better than a standard Hilux or GQ pootrol in low range, my mates are always hanging right back on long decents and I just let it go and by the bottom they are hitting the brakes in thier manuals and on the radio for me to speed up so it cant be that bad.


I'd rather trust my mechanical components than trust the friction on my brakes for long descents. The hand brake works on the transmission via a drum brake, it's extra wear on it and IMHO it can be dangerous.

Look - I'm not bagging out the auto. I love the idea I really do. But to sacrifice the ratio that I have after spending over 2k to get the transfer case where I have now doesn't make sense to me.

Cheers
Chris

[Slunnie]

I'd rather trust my mechanical components than trust the friction on my brakes for long descents. The hand brake works on the transmission via a drum brake, it's extra wear on it and IMHO it can be dangerous.

Look - I'm not bagging out the auto. I love the idea I really do. But to sacrifice the ratio that I have after spending over 2k to get the transfer case where I have now doesn't make sense to me.

Cheers
Chris
Riding the handbrake on the LT230 stuffs it pretty quickly. I found this out when being flat towed up at Cape York with a broken radiator.

[cewilson]

Riding the handbrake on the LT230 stuffs it pretty quickly. I found this out when being flat towed up at Cape York with a broken radiator.


What's your final ratio in first low in your vehicle Slunnie?

[Slunnie]

What's your final ratio in first low in your vehicle Slunnie?
Good question. Here are the ratios. I also run these on 34"35" Simex. I've not ever had a gearing problem with these ratios or needed lower than L1, but thats not to say that there isn't better ratios out there. For engine braking the ZF4HP22EH locks up in all gears in low range in overrun, so this definately helps, and then I just supplement with the brake as needed. The 4HP22 does not do that.

ZF
1 2.48 (12.33/33.84)
2 1.48 (7.36/20.19)
3 1.00 (4.97/13.65)
4 0.73 (3.63/9.96)
R 2.09 (10.39/28.51)

LT230
H 1.21
L 3.32

Diffs
4.11

[mcrover]

I'd rather trust my mechanical components than trust the friction on my brakes for long descents. The hand brake works on the transmission via a drum brake, it's extra wear on it and IMHO it can be dangerous.

Look - I'm not bagging out the auto. I love the idea I really do. But to sacrifice the ratio that I have after spending over 2k to get the transfer case where I have now doesn't make sense to me.

Cheers
Chris

Why ask the question about the conversion and then argue the point over ratio's.

You would have to be on the brakes for ages for it to make any difference to their wear and temp.

Everything is a compromise, your low gearing will still be better than mine and a hell of a lot better than anything else on the market so if you want an auto then thats the compromise, dont go bagging it and dont go saying that these tried and prooven ways of driving them is dangerous when it's just as likely you can grab and axel and snap it and the car turn over or drive it'self off an edge as it would be for a brake compnant to fail and cause you to go down the hill still slower than a Pootrol.


Riding the handbrake on the LT230 stuffs it pretty quickly. I found this out when being flat towed up at Cape York with a broken radiator.

Ive been using this tequnique for 4 years and the shes are still like new, I change my pads about once a year depending on driving.

I generally use the handbrake as on a lot of the decents we do there is a river at the bottom and I dont like quenching brake rotors, they normally dont like it.

[B92 8NW]

Did the 200tdi still run the ZF 4HP22 but with different gear ratios?

Nope. I've read this 200Tdi box onto 300s thing being faster, but I don't see how. Exact same box. They both use an FTC2756

[cewilson]

Why ask the question about the conversion and then argue the point over ratio's.

You would have to be on the brakes for ages for it to make any difference to their wear and temp.

Everything is a compromise, your low gearing will still be better than mine and a hell of a lot better than anything else on the market so if you want an auto then thats the compromise, dont go bagging it and dont go saying that these tried and prooven ways of driving them is dangerous when it's just as likely you can grab and axel and snap it and the car turn over or drive it'self off an edge as it would be for a brake compnant to fail and cause you to go down the hill still slower than a Pootrol.



Ive been using this tequnique for 4 years and the shes are still like new, I change my pads about once a year depending on driving.

I generally use the handbrake as on a lot of the decents we do there is a river at the bottom and I dont like quenching brake rotors, they normally dont like it.

Settle sunshine.

Did you even read my posts properly - or did you read what you wanted to read? I do believe that I said IMHO - in my humble opinion.........

I wasn't having a go at you or wasting people's time. I asked a fair question and continued doing research on it. I now know (and probably do others) what is entailed in this conversion, and I also now know the ratio's -which I didn't before. IN MY OPINION, the ratio's don't make the conversion worth it for WHAT I DO with my vehicle. I do appreciate the help I've gotten on this thread - hence the thankyou's on some posts.


Chris

[mcrover]

Settle sunshine.

Did you even read my posts properly - or did you read what you wanted to read? I do believe that I said IMHO - in my humble opinion.........

I wasn't having a go at you or wasting people's time. I asked a fair question and continued doing research on it. I now know (and probably do others) what is entailed in this conversion, and I also now know the ratio's -which I didn't before. IN MY OPINION, the ratio's don't make the conversion worth it for WHAT I DO with my vehicle. I do appreciate the help I've gotten on this thread - hence the thankyou's on some posts.


Chris

Yeah what ever:mad:

[cewilson]

Good question. Here are the ratios. I also run these on 34"35" Simex. I've not ever had a gearing problem with these ratios or needed lower than L1, but thats not to say that there isn't better ratios out there. For engine braking the ZF4HP22EH locks up in all gears in low range in overrun, so this definately helps, and then I just supplement with the brake as needed. The 4HP22 does not do that.

ZF
1 2.48 (12.33/33.84)
2 1.48 (7.36/20.19)
3 1.00 (4.97/13.65)
4 0.73 (3.63/9.96)
R 2.09 (10.39/28.51)

LT230
H 1.21
L 3.32

Diffs
4.11

Does the ECU tell it to lock the gears up - or something along them lines?

Do you find that you need to use the brake much, or only on some areas - eg Lithgow?

Thanks mate

Chris

[Slunnie]

Does the ECU tell it to lock the gears up - or something along them lines?

Do you find that you need to use the brake much, or only on some areas - eg Lithgow?

Thanks mate

Chris
There is an EAT ECU (auto computer) on the 4HP22EH which tells it when to lockup, you can buy these as standalone units from Dave Ashcroft (as you keep throwing more money at the conversion) and it will tell it when to lock up. AFAIK it would need a TPS also.
Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/part_80.html)

In terms of using the brakes... I don't pull it back down through the gears very often at all, only when there is a lot of braking to do when on or off road. I do pull it back coming down off Scenic hill and only need to use the brakes lightly twice which is coming into the sharper RH about 1/3rd of the way down and again about 2/3 of the way down coming onto the sweeping LH just after the memorial. This said, I'm not on the road to stuff around and the Disco does have ACE. :D The auto will never match the manual for engine braking, but they're not that bad... you still need to supplement the engine braking with foot braking, you cant purely rely on it like you might with a manual. I also run 33's on road.

[George130]

With my low range I find I often have to accelerate down hill as I am going half the speed of everyone also or slower:twisted:.
Been told my low range is 72-1
Over all engine breaking is great with the TD5.
Please note my gearbox is nothing like a standard box these days.

[Slunnie]

With my low range I find I often have to accelerate down hill as I am going half the speed of everyone also or slower:twisted:.
Been told my low range is 72-1
Over all engine breaking is great with the TD5.
Please note my gearbox is nothing like a standard box these days.
Did you regear the ZF or do you have 49% gears and 4.11's or something??

[George130]

Did you regear the ZF or do you have 49% gears and 4.11's or something??
The reduction is in the transfer low range. It was done by Bruce Davis using Maxi drive gear. I believe the diffs are standard ratio.
Auto is normal gears but the clutch packs extra clutches and are extra thick. Valves have been upped. Oil pick up is now a custom jobbie. Torque converter was 3000 stallie but when I had it rebuilt we had then dial it back down to 2400 lock up with again as much beefing up as they could.
I have been told there is nothing more that can be done the box so the list above is what I know and have had dealings with.