TD5 vs TDCi Under Bonnet Differences

[eksjay]

Just wondering if people who have had experience with both engine bays can summarise pluses and minuses of each donk and associated parts. Apart from the noise differences, are they similar in performance?

I guess Ford had its reasons for dropping its own powerplant into a Land Rover. Was it just the donk? What else changed? Was it an improvement over the Td5 or a step in the wrong direction?

BTW, what is that cup holder thingy to left of the engine? Dullbird, I saw it in one of your great pics! The brochure has a picture of the engine with some kind of bell type object in in the same vicinity as the cup holder - a pop-off valve??? :D

One of the 4x4 mags took the Deefer out for a play in the Kimberly and suffered a couple of major breakages. Is this the result of LR mixing up Td5 bits with Ford bits, and two opposing bits not living happily together? IIRC, the Master brake cylinder was one such problemo. Has the vacuum seal issue been resolved with the 2009 model, or it the 2009 plate year, just a restamp on the 2007 edition?

[camel_landy]

Just wondering if people who have had experience with both engine bays can summarise pluses and minuses of each donk and associated parts. Apart from the noise differences, are they similar in performance?

The new Puma donk is significantly better than the old TD5. Loads more power and you can do loads more with the anti-stall feature. It also drives more like the good old TDi... :D


I guess Ford had its reasons for dropping its own powerplant into a Land Rover.

Yep... ;)


Was it just the donk? What else changed? Was it an improvement over the Td5 or a step in the wrong direction?

More than just the donk... Basically, they've kept everything that's great about the Defender and changed the bits everyone kept complaining about:

Build quality.
Body work leaks.
Ventilation & aircon.
Noise.
Seating.

IMO, I think the new Defender is great and I especially like the new engine & gearbox but there's still some of the old quirks there... ;)

HTH

M

[Psimpson7]

I don't have a great deal of experience of the TDCI in the Defender, but as far as I am aware the main reason they used it was a cost saving over the TD5.

The TD5 was ok when the Dsicovery was using the larger percentage of them, but as soon as they were producing them just for the Defender it go too expensive and the Ford engine became the more viable option.

They both produce the same power, but the TDCI has more torque over a better range.

The TD5 at the moment is more tuneable and also easier to work on.

Rgds
Pete.

[Scallops]

The reason they changed engines was to satisfy environmental regulations - the TD5 was not EU4 compliant.

[isuzubob]

More than just the donk... Basically, they've kept everything that's great about the Defender and changed the bits everyone kept complaining about:

Build quality.



M

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

[Slunnie]

Hmmm, I actually thought that the build of the new Defender went down! I was appalled at the amount of flex in the body with the one that I was looking at, especially around the doors into the back seats.

Power has remained unchanged at 90kw but torque is up - I'm sure the 6 speed helps here as I'm assuming by the torque/power changes that comes onto and then off the power faster than the TD5.

[dullbird]

it also has a variable turbo so no lag

[Psimpson7]

The reason they changed engines was to satisfy environmental regulations - the TD5 was not EU4 compliant.

And that goes straight back to cost. (I think)It was cheaper to modify teh TDCI to fit, than with its limited production keep improving the TD5 to meet EU standards.

[eksjay]

So what is with the cup holder under the bonnet to the left of the TDCi engine, and the picture in the brochure which shows what looks like a bell housing????

Dullbird, did you modify anything???

It is probably a burner for your bush cooking:cool:.

[BilboBoggles]

I have both a 2003 TD5 and 2 week old PUMA

http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/YPEz2zwf4x1rgx3OJYu5hQ?feat=directlink
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/625.jpg
In comparison - There are many things that are improved in the PUMA, and some things that I think are not quite as nice.

Some of the things i've noticed comparing the two.

1 - Chassis flex is the same - I've measured the chassis thickness and cannot see any difference in the two. Certainly the both make the same noises on my cross axle hill.

2 - The wing mirrors on the PUMA are much smaller than the TD5 - But also much better. (They are magnified on the PUMA - but flat on the TD5.)

3 - The rear body is constructed very differently. the PUMA has a steel cage under the floor - perhaps for the 7 seats. It looks quite different to the TD5. It's Much easier to put child restraints in a PUMA.

4 - There is slightly more plastic in the PUMA, the inner wheel arches on the TD5 are Galvanised, but the PUMA are plastic. There are plastic panels under the floor. I'm not to bothered by this as it's harder for plastic to rust.

5 - There is more rubbishy insulation in the PUMA engine bay - that I bet will shred over the years. Still it's easy to rip out.

6 - The ECU on the PUMA is mounted above the engine on the fire wall and appears to be very well water proofed. Therefore No oil in ECU as it's higher than the engine. And I bet it will ford better.

7 - The engine sound of the PUMA is not as nice as the TD5. But it goes so much better and smoother - no turbo lag, and it hammers.

8 - Traction Control - Well I think they did something to the PUMA as it's traction control seems to be better than the TD5. It's much smoother when cross axled... Perhaps it's just the different tyres.

9 - Fuel Economy. Not as good as the TD5, but very little in it.

10 - Seating - The TD5 was good - The PUMA is outstanding. Much more middle row room, the front seats are much better and the 6th and 7th seats in the rear are brilliant.

11 - Undersealing. This was one of my issues with the PUMA - there is no undersealing. I've covered mine with Tectyl wax - so we'll have to see how that holds up. Mind you at -160,000k's the TD5 underseal is gone in many places - And I'll probably do the TECTYL treatment on it soon.

12 - Minor changes - The bonnet stay on the PUMA is cheaper and less constructed than the PUMA - The rear tailgate hinges are not rebuildable on the PUMA.

13 - Build Quality. Within the 1st 1000k's my TD5 had shagged a rear diff, started the first of 17 visits to the dealer to rectify water leaks, had the gearbox rebuilt for the first of 3 times. I might book the PUMA in at 1000k's to have the window tint fixed up......

14 - The 2009 model - which is what mine is, seems to have all of the known issues fixed. The bonnet is modded to stop rubbing on the brake lines or fluid reservoir. The Vaccuum pump is the new modded type with a dual lip seal. The breather on the fuel tank is moved. The sump is modded. etc.

In Summary - I like the TD5, but the PUMA is much improved at least from my perspective.



RE The TD5 - from what I remembered - they scrapped the engine production plant back in 200XXX when they stopped using them in the Discovery. They stockpiled enough for the Defender for few years of production. I seem to recall they sold of the remaining crate engines a couple of year back.

[dullbird]

So what is with the cup holder under the bonnet to the left of the TDCi engine, and the picture in the brochure which shows what looks like a bell housing????



Dullbird, did you modify anything???

It is probably a burner for your bush cooking:cool:.

Not really modded anything as such...

we do have;


Dual batteries, yellow top optima traxide setup
winch bumper.....custom A bar, magnum winch with synthetic rope
hf radio and Uhf
32L water tank
45L aux fuel tank
roof console
seat covers
light covers
chequer plate wingtops with hi force wing top air scoops
tv/dvd/rear reversing camera
rear wheel carrier
roof rack hannible
Safe
window grills
window tint
transmission guard

and there are couple of other not really significant things...

Mods to be added in the not so distant future

Sliders with jacking points...metal in the back yard!
relocation of the hand brake...eventually to be changed to a disc brake but want to get one on the 90 first to expensive to buy two at a time.

and bash plate for the steering.

that all I can really think of at the moment:)

[Blknight.aus]

IMHO.....

the electronics got better. (ecu, tc, abs)

the engines out to the jury as far as im concerened its has some advantages over the td5 and some new disadvantages.

theres some things that the design engineers need to be given a calm napalm enema over including brake line routing, sump design (or lack thereof) fuel system design and the drive line. Im not impressed with some of the new materials used in different places for different reasons.

If I was only permitted to have the choice of the TD5 or the puma.

I would have the TD5 and get a puma for SWMBO. The things I want a landrover to do and be are better represented by the TD5 and SWMBO the puma.

[dmdigital]

Traction Control works a treat!

Seats are very comfortable over older models.

Oil filter is actually dead easy to get to (that's a first for a lot of vehicles)

Air filter is the opposite of the oil filter to get at.

Clutch reservoir - I'm sure they told the design engineer: The old one is too easy to open, do something to rectify this!

A/C and Heater both work very well - strangely the owner's manual refers to it as "Climate Control":confused:

Don't know about a difference in the mirrors:confused: They are identical to the Tdi 110 I park alongside it each night.

Front springs aren't handed, they are the same as the passenger side front spring on previous Defender 110's. HD springs are handed and still the same as since the County:confused:

Headlights are relayed!

[RMB3218]

IMHO.....

the electronics got better. (ecu, tc, abs)

the engines out to the jury as far as im concerened its has some advantages over the td5 and some new disadvantages.

theres some things that the design engineers need to be given a calm napalm enema over including brake line routing, sump design (or lack thereof) fuel system design and the drive line. Im not impressed with some of the new materials used in different places for different reasons.

If I was only permitted to have the choice of the TD5 or the puma.

I would have the TD5 and get a puma for SWMBO. The things I want a landrover to do and be are better represented by the TD5 and SWMBO the puma.


Having owned 3 Defenders, the last 2 where then a td5 a Puma, I can only agree

[dullbird]

Traction Control works a treat!

Seats are very comfortable over older models.

Oil filter is actually dead easy to get to (that's a first for a lot of vehicles)

Air filter is the opposite of the oil filter to get at.

Clutch reservoir - I'm sure they told the design engineer: The old one is too easy to open, do something to rectify this!

A/C and Heater both work very well - strangely the owner's manual refers to it as "Climate Control":confused:


Don't know about a difference in the mirrors:confused: They are identical to the Tdi 110 I park alongside it each night.

Front springs aren't handed, they are the same as the passenger side front spring on previous Defender 110's. HD springs are handed and still the same as since the County:confused:

Headlights are relayed!

yes there are a difference in mirrors to the TD5....the puma's mirrors are curved and bring objects alot closer

[dmdigital]

yes there are a difference in mirrors to the TD5....the puma's mirrors are curved and bring objects alot closer
Are you sure... I mean I've just had my eye's checked last month and I can't see any difference - apart from the mirrors on the Puma are cleaner.

Now I'm going to have to go outside and check it out when its daylight. How can I miss something like this:confused:

[dullbird]

could it be due to the fact that prehaps your are checking against a tdi and not a TD5?

This was also confirmed by the dealer that they are different...

[dmdigital]

could it be due to the fact that prehaps your are checking against a tdi and not a TD5?
Possible, but I suspect the mirrors on my Tdi are probably the Td5 anyway. Mine is one of the last of the Tdi VIN range and I've found a few Td5 bits on it.

That said, I didn't think the mirror part number was any different for a Td5 or a Tdi (or until now a Puma).

[dullbird]

well I'm happy to be proved wrong.....but that is definatly what a lot of people have lead me to believe...

[dmdigital]

well I'm happy to be proved wrong.....but that is definatly what a lot of people have lead me to believe...
I'm not doubting you, I just can't believe I haven't noticed it:eek:

On another note, what are those little mirrors you guys have called. Are they from Supercheap or Autobarn or somewhere? Meant to get some last trip out and forgot.

[dullbird]

blind spot mirrors.....yes you can probably get them from supercrap

[Blknight.aus]

fisheye mirrors.

[TimNZ]

The mirrors on my 110 are dead flat, I can't see bugger all out of them compared with the curved ones that were on my 89' county.

Tim

[dmdigital]

Well it was dark when I left and dark when I got home today so I didn't get to check the mirrors out. Maybe tomorrow.

[hook]

So what is with the cup holder under the bonnet to the left of the TDCi engine, .

Since it will be in the workshop so much (electronic),
gives the bloke working on it some were to put his brew.:p

[eksjay]

Hook, nice jibe:D but can you elaborate???

What kind of electronic probs have you encountered?

I thought this car's electrics were quite basic. Interested to know, apart from wear and tear issues e.g. headlights etc. what other electrical gremlins exist...I have read that there are Cry-Wolf Warning Lamps on the dash. ABS, traction control etc come on and off at odd times...

As I mentioned, the brochure shows a bell type object where that engine bay cup holder is.... kind of reminds me of a pop-off valve that the Champ Cars/Indy Cars used to limit boost when they were running turbo engines.

On a 900hp 2.65L V8 turbocharged Indycar [sigh, they are no longer used in competition], it might sit quite right, but surely you wouldn't need that on a 90Kw diesel engine.

[camel_landy]

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

I thought that when I first heard it too... ;)

Seriously though, the build quality isn't perfect but it is loads better than it was before.

M

[spudboy]

I heard the headlights in the new model actually have a relay :eek: instead of switching direct from the light switch. Anyone know if this is true or just a wild rumor?

[dmdigital]

Yes they do and I already mentioned it.

[Scallops]

Yes they do and I already mentioned it.

Does that mean that the issues with the headlight switch (on previous models) "burning out" are eliminated?

PS - The mirrors on mine are flat and identical to the 2006 TD5 ones. Perhaps we all got random mirrors.

[dullbird]

Does that mean that the issues with the headlight switch (on previous models) "burning out" are eliminated?


PS - The mirrors on mine are flat and identical to the 2006 TD5 ones. Perhaps we all got random mirrors.

maybe they were BS with the mirrors......:D will have to try and look my self i wasn't expecting the mirrors to be noticably curved by the way.

we should take a photo from the same place at the same focal length of both mirrors and see if either picture looks closer....I.e point the camera at the mirror and photo the reflection:D

[dullbird]

OK so in the puma today and the mirror defiantly magnifies whats coming from behind does this happen on the 300tdi and the td5?
I can confirm mirrors are defiantly different to the 200tdi's :D

[Scallops]

OK so in the puma today and the mirror defiantly magnifies whats coming from behind does this happen on the 300tdi and the td5?
I can confirm mirrors are defiantly different to the 200tdi's :D

Mine doesn't - so we have different mirrors! :o

[discowhite]

OK so in the puma today and the mirror defiantly magnifies whats coming from behind does this happen on the 300tdi and the td5?
I can confirm mirrors are defiantly different to the 200tdi's :D
put something flat, like a 6'' steel ruler on the surface and see if its flat. it should be convex like a blind spot mirror. if its flat i don't think it can physically be any different to any other flat mirror?

cheers phil

[dullbird]

Mine doesn't - so we have different mirrors! :o

cant imagine we would have different mirrors though:confused:

[dullbird]

put something flat, like a 6'' steel ruler on the surface and see if its flat. it should be convex like a blind spot mirror. if its flat i don't think it can physically be any different to any other flat mirror?

cheers phil


Yeh I did think of that....but I said to ian does it bring objects forward and he said yes it does....I can't imagine it would take much of a convex to do this

its the same as my disco they dont look any different but my driver side one brings things way more forward than my passenger side one. or at least it deffinalty appears too

[dmdigital]

OK, I've now checked the Tdi's and Puma's mirrors and....






... there is absolutely no difference in the size of what you see. They are not convex, concave or convoluted. The only 2 discernible differences were:
1. When you look in the Puma's mirror there is a clean sided silver vehicle as opposed to a very dirty off white one of the Tdi.
2. The Puma's mirrors were a LOT cleaner and easier to see things in (this has now been addressed and the Tdi's mirrors are clean too)

So Lou (and others) it would appear not all Puma's are created the same :confused:

[dmdigital]

Does that mean that the issues with the headlight switch (on previous models) "burning out" are eliminated?
It should, but the other part of the Traxide kit equates to a wiring upgrade to supply power without as much current drop as the standard wiring loom. So there's still no reason not to install in effect a double relayed system.

[discowhite]

Yeh I did think of that....but I said to ian does it bring objects forward and he said yes it does....I can't imagine it would take much of a convex to do this

its the same as my disco they dont look any different but my driver side one brings things way more forward than my passenger side one. or at least it deffinalty appears too
try sitting on the cubby box so your in the middle of the line of sight for both mirrors. my work ford's mirrors are identical but the DS one things are close and the PS things are further away.
Expeditionware Convex Mirrors For The Land Rover Defender 90, Defender 110, Defender 127, Defender 130, Defender 147 - Expedition Exchange (http://www.expeditionexchange.com/mirrors/)

cheers phil

[hoadie72]

FYI guys, convex mirrors can be made flat. And not all of them have the "objects in mirror" comment.

[dullbird]

try sitting on the cubby box so your in the middle of the line of sight for both mirrors. my work ford's mirrors are identical but the DS one things are close and the PS things are further away.
Expeditionware Convex Mirrors For The Land Rover Defender 90, Defender 110, Defender 127, Defender 130, Defender 147 - Expedition Exchange (http://www.expeditionexchange.com/mirrors/)

cheers phil


yeh I saw that link phil.......next time your round have a look in the mirror and see what you think, other wise both me and ian must be cracking up!!:D

[dmdigital]

FYI guys, convex mirrors can be made flat. And not all of them have the "objects in mirror" comment.
I was going to say that

[B92 8NW]

try sitting on the cubby box so your in the middle of the line of sight for both mirrors. my work ford's mirrors are identical but the DS one things are close and the PS things are further away.
Expeditionware Convex Mirrors For The Land Rover Defender 90, Defender 110, Defender 127, Defender 130, Defender 147 - Expedition Exchange (http://www.expeditionexchange.com/mirrors/)

cheers phil

Same with my D1, though my preupdate one didn't. Caused a few "baahh that truck is bloody miles away... *pulls out*... "holy full throttle batman" moments:D.

[BilboBoggles]

A Very rough photo comparison. Sorry too dark for the view out of the mirrors.....

Side View of MY03
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/451.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/%3Cimg%20src=)

Side view of MY09 PUMA
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/450.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/%3Cimg%20src=)

Back of my03 Mirror


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/452.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/%3Ca%20href=)">

Back of PUMA MY09 Mirror

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/453.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/%3Cimg%20src=)



Size Comparison.... Would have used a ruler - but well couldn't find one.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/454.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/%3Cimg%20src=)

and the MY03 TD5

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/455.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/%3Cimg%20src=)

[Psimpson7]

That's really odd.

My 01 td5 mirrors I would say are indentical to the Puma ones pictured, and very different to the 03 td5 ones pictured.

edited to add, in fact I have never seen mirrors like those 03 td5 ones before on a Defender.

[dmdigital]

Side View of MY03
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/451.jpg
That is the mirror on both my Tdi (98MY) and my Puma (08MY).

[dullbird]

A Very rough photo comparison. Sorry too dark for the view out of the mirrors.....



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/450.jpg
Back of my03 Mirror




and this looks like the mirror on our 200TDI:)

[dmdigital]

Two part numbers:

Convex Mirror - MTC5084
Flat Mirror - STC3213

Doesn't explain why some have and some haven't. Might see about a convex one for the LHS though.

[dullbird]

That is the mirror on both my Tdi (98MY) and my Puma (08MY).

that looks like the same mirror on our 07 puma as well

[discowhite]

its probably as simple as britax ran out of stock of the old style so they gave LR the skinny type ones till they re stocked.
if that part number is correct for convex im gettin 2 for the 90:cool:

cheers phil

[discowhite]

just to add to the mirror thread;)
looks like the convex replacement glass is redily available in OZ
Britax Automotive Equipment Pty Ltd Australia - Product Catalogue (http://www.britaxae.com.au/products.php?categoryname=Replacement%20Glass&subcategoryid=3&page=2)

looks like replacing the glass is gonna be easier thani thought:D

and the only one in their cattledog that looks like the defender ones are convex
http://www.britaxae.com.au/images//Mirrors/Images/4003-189.jpg 4003-189 Heads Universal http://www.britaxae.com.au/images/Brands/Britax_Mirrors.jpg (http://www.britaxae.com.au/products-brand.php?productbrand=20&page=1) [/URL] (http://www.britaxae.com.au/products-ins1.php?insert=13&page=1)Mirror head SPECIFICATIONSConvex glass Alt Part Nos (http://www.britaxae.com.au/products-ins1.php?insert=13&page=1)Black plastic moulded mirror head, coated metal swing arm (http://www.britaxae.com.au/products-spare.php?productid=) H210D165 W140 Features Spare Parts

Mirror head is adjustable via a ball pivot



</SPAN>[URL="http://www.britaxae.com.au/products-spare.php?productid="]

[BilboBoggles]

Ok - Slight update on my previous post...

Now at 5000k's,

1 - Rear Diff shagged itself - A new diff was fitted - and it shagged itself on the way home. Will need a third diff.... So here the experience has been the same as the TD5 ;-)

2 - Rear panel alignment to be fixed by dealer - will take them a couple of weeks....

3 - Paint on rear crossmember is to be fixed, it's absent in some areas.

4 - Water leaks through the hinges on the wind screen.

5 - Severe dust leaks through panel seams because they saved $3.50 on seam sealer.

6 - Rear door vibrating - because the dealer no longer fits rubber stoppers to support the tyre. Now an at cost option.


So in summary my experience with the PUMA has been nearly Exaclty the same as the TD5. Perhaps slightly worse because at least on the TD5 they used a tube of sikaflex on the assembly line and it did not leak through every seam.

[eksjay]

Ok - Slight update on my previous post...

Now at 5000k's,

1 - Rear Diff shagged itself - A new diff was fitted - and it shagged itself on the way home. Will need a third diff.... So here the experience has been the same as the TD5 ;-)




Ummmm how does this happen twice?

[camel_landy]

Ummmm how does this happen twice?

Usually it's driving style/technique...

You need to be progressive with the clutch otherwise you're constantly shock-loading the drive train.

M

[Redback]

Usually it's driving style/technique...

You need to be progressive with the clutch otherwise you're constantly shock-loading the drive train.

M

I would be more inclined to say that the diffs are crap:twisted:

[BilboBoggles]

On the TD5 the first two failed due to crap ingestion - the bearing tracks were chomped out. I suspect they left weld splatter on the inside or a few bolts lying around. I've done 170,000 k's since then and it's not failed so I'm fairly sure it's not driving technique.

The PUMA - I don't know why the first one failed - just that the pinion bearing developed a lot of slop and a bad oil leak within a few thousand k's from brand new. The replacement - I'm not sure it's making a nasty clonking sound in time with the props shaft and hums like crazy when coasting. I'd love to know how driving technique can damage a diff in a couple of hundered meters.

[camel_landy]

On the TD5 the first two failed due to crap ingestion - the bearing tracks were chomped out. I suspect they left weld splatter on the inside or a few bolts lying around. I've done 170,000 k's since then and it's not failed so I'm fairly sure it's not driving technique.

The PUMA - I don't know why the first one failed - just that the pinion bearing developed a lot of slop and a bad oil leak within a few thousand k's from brand new. The replacement - I'm not sure it's making a nasty clonking sound in time with the props shaft and hums like crazy when coasting. I'd love to know how driving technique can damage a diff in a couple of hundered meters.

Yeah, with something like that failing within a few hundred meters, I'd tend to agree that it's something other than technique.

It sounds like they just swapped out the diff without inspecting the axle to see if anything else got damaged in the process... Or if there was something else which caused the diff to fail in the first place.

M