101 front shaft fix

[101 Ron]

Tom Wood's Custom Drive Shafts - Landrover Application (http://www.4xshaft.com/Landrover.html)
Tom Wood's Custom Drive Shafts - Tom Woods Custom Drive Shafts Custom Driveshafts Specialist (http://www.4xshaft.com/index.html)
How big is ones wallet?
How strong would it be operating over a very short steep shaft ?

[101RRS]

I have seen these before - I do not know why CVs cannot be fitted - they can handle greater angles than UJs.

Garry

[101RRS]

Ron,

Have you done anything with you prop shafts as yet - are you putting new slides and UJs in or trying to get a new shaft - if you are getting the bits where are you getting them?

Garry

[101 Ron]

Just have thrown new UJs in the thing and left it as is.
I one day may have to work something out.
I have too many other issues to sort out at present.
I have the brakes apart currently .
I was only planing to do a hub oil seal and shoes, but a careful inspection of the wheel cylinders suggested I better get some cups and do them.
The silicone brake fluid after two years and lots of creeks and mud works well.
The cylinders are perfect.
I am lucky the drums are good too.
What surprised me was the wear on the shoes....near worn out.
I will have to do the front brakes now as I expect them to be near metal to metal.
I was hoping to hold of on the front end for a while and do it when the front locker goes in.
My machine is still not running back on gas as I haven had time to find the problem.
The 101 has been in constant use lately as a tow vehicle.
Anthony Johnson did find a drivers side heater door for me and so my feet will be warmer this winter.

[101 Ron]

I am interested in how DODGE (Gaz ) went with the shockers.
I think he is onto something with the rear shockers limiting rear spring drop.
Shockers with longer travel downwards should make a lot of difference off road.
While I have the rear apart I might take them off and look into it.
I put my spare Defender drive axles and flanges side by side with the ones off the 101......like chalk and cheese.
Silly poms for not carrying though heavy duty stuff they had in production to the defenders...silly, silly.

[101RRS]

On Monday I am going to buy four new UJ's and put them in and grease up the slides - I was hoping that there might have been more modern UJs that could handle the excessive prop angles better - with an unloaded 101, the UJs operate outside of design parameters - just inside when fully loaded and that is how the 101 was tested when being built.

When you get your new brake shoes you need to check that you do not need oversize (you probably will). This was the cause of my brake problems last year - even with minimal wear on my drums I still needed first oversize.

On the issue of shocks - other that original - my research has shown that the best bet are Rancho and ProComp shocks (I think 4500 and 9000 models).

My steering is too slack that is in the steering box - I have a new box and was just going to put that in and keep the old one as a spare but people on the 101 club have convinced me to try to adjust up what I have first so I will do that.

Garry

[101 Ron]

Garry
I use Hardie Sipicer replacement UJs( I cannot remember the Part number off hand)
Only two things will fix the 101 UJ problem.
1 roll the front diff and use one double carden joint on the transfercase end.( with possible angling of the motor/transmission alignment)
2 use a short tailshaft with a double carden joint each end.
the second option may not be as strong as the original set up due to the shortness of the shaft required.
If it was a easy fix i think landrover would have done it.
The problem in its self not the high drive angles but different ones in the side ways plane,
This means what ever normal UJ type shaft you fit a vib problem will occur loaded and unloaded.
On the camper 101 I drove ,with the long wheel base (130 inch) with R380 gear box and transmission moved back much further than standard, giving a much longer front drive shaft it still would get a front shaft buzz on the float down hill.
This vehicle is in a very overloaded condition.
The buzz was not anywhere near as bad as a standard 101 ......but it still did it.
My 101 will operate drive shaft wise the same loaded or unloaded.
Landrover made the 101 with this problem for a number of reasons.
The Salisbury diff centre cannot be moved any further to the RHS with out interfearing with the RHS spring.
The Range rover transmission with third diff must be of set alot to the RHS and the 101 chassis is high and narrow.
Even though the Range transmission was designed with the 101 in mind it is not possible for a small production run vehicle of the 101 to have a transmission complelely redesigned for it, or was it possible to use the narrower rover diff on the front , or the earlier and weaker series transmission.
The special short bell housing was the compromise answer,
At the time of the design of the 101 it was not common to use a front drive shaft with a rolled diff and double carden joint and this still doesnt fix things in the side ways plane of operation.
Note landrover used a double carden joint on the stage one series three using the same transmission and motor on a longer front drive shaft using a lot shallower drive angles and the smaller rover diff which is easier to off set.
As for the steering box , adjust the silly thing !
It is a recirulating ball ball type.
That means if the thing has oil in it and then bearings are OK it will be perfect.
I did a steering box adjustment in the sand at Stockton beach with two shifters......its easy.
Jack the front wheels off the ground .
The big locking nut on the side of the steering box loosen it off ( I think it was a 27mm spanner needed) and try not to move the inner smaller adjusting nut whisle doing it.( wheels straight ahead possition)
When loose turn the inner adjust nut clock wise small amounts untill the excessive play disappears.
Dont not tighten the adjustment nut up hard or cause the steering to drag, only enough to remove the play.
Check whisle jacked up the smoothness lock to lock.
Tighten the lock nut without moving the adjust ment nut and its done.
The only possible wear in the steering box if it is half servicable is worn pitman arm bushes and this will show up as movement in the pitman arm underload and a possible oil leak.
The greaseable ball joint conversion on my 101 made a great difference to the weight of the steering.
I have seen your post on the other 101 overseas site.
should try local first........:D...AULDRO is hard to beat.

[101 Ron]

A rolled front diff.
Note the shaft angle and extended oil filler.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/32.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/31.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/30.jpg

[101 Ron]

If you look at the pics above carefully you will see a powersteering pump and a non standard exhaust with the normal leaking CV joints
NOTE THE SPRINGS......they are not parabloic and are normal leafs.
That would be the best way to improve ride and flex without big money.

[101RRS]

Thanks Ron

I will see if I can get Hardie Spicer or GKN UJs.

Cheers

Garry

[101 Ron]

hardy spicer P/N K5-13XR ........13 dollars each from my local bearing retailer

[101RRS]

Thanks Ron - hell of a lot cheaper than my freelander UJs - $70 each from a industrial supplier:(

Garry

[101RRS]

Well I went to the local industrial supply place and they have Hardy Spicer P/N K5-13XR UJs for $25 each. But the guy then asked, did I actually need the Heavy Duty version P/N K5-13XRHD which are $100 each or the HD Premium version for a $120 each. What the ??????:o

I said I did not know and I would get back to him. Another bearing place did not sell Hardy Spicer but had a SKF equivalent. Repco has them but charge $35 for the basic UJs, $135 for the HDs and about $160 for the premium models. The Repco brand equivalents are the same price.

Interestingly, none of the sales people were prepared to convince me the heavy duty and premium versions were actually better than the standard UJs.

So given the loads on the front UJs in a 101, do I need the heavy duty versions or not? I will use the standard UJs in the rear driveshaft.

Somewhat confused.

Garry

[101 Ron]

The part no I use came from what came out of my UJs and I think is standard with the series three rover.
I dont know anything about heavy duty versions.
Its your choice.
SKF are a good brand.

[101 Ron]

Usually a heavy duty bearing has more and smaller rollers to transfer the load.
I personally would go the cheaper version.
Another interesting thing is the series three brake shoes (new) I have in the back of the 101 are on the last part of the adjuster cam.
They looked to have thin linnings new.
My drums are perfect and have not been machined.
Standard 101 shoes must have thicker linings than series three.
I will get my old shoes relined to a thicker spec.
I will check the brake drum size of the 101.
Does any one know the standard brake drum diameter of a series three.
I have ordered some shoes and wheel cylinders for the front from Anthony Johnson,so it will be interesting to see what happens there.

[101 Ron]

The 101 workshop manual states the 101 drums should be 280mm or 11 inches as standard.
A haynes workshop book for a Landrover (late 1980s rear) states 280 mm with a minimum linning thickness of1.5 mm.
the 101 drum has 281mm cast into it for maximum dia .
I think the replacement shoes we are getting are not up to stratch with too thin bonded linings.

[101RRS]

When I was looking at my brakes - I realised there was only about 1mm wear allowance on the drums.

Shoes were carried in stock at my local brake supplier - $65 a pair for standard (no exchange) but as soon as I indicated I wanted oversize the price went up to $100 a pair - they also carried second oversize.

As far as the UJs are concerned I think that I will go the standard ones and if they chew out quickly I know that I can put in a heavy duty version - if they do not chew out quickly I will have saved $75-$100 a go.

My current UJs are still tight but I would prefer to replace them as a precaution. The slide on the front shaft is relatively tight with just a tiny amount of sideways movement - so should be OK for a good while yet.

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<snip>.....
The Range rover transmission with third diff must be of set alot to the RHS and the 101 chassis is high and narrow.
Even though the Range transmission was designed with the 101 in mind it is not possible for a small production run vehicle of the 101 to have a transmission complelely redesigned for it, or was it possible to use the narrower rover diff on the front , or the earlier and weaker series transmission.
The special short bell housing was the compromise answer,
At the time of the design of the 101 it was not common to use a front drive shaft with a rolled diff and double carden joint and this still doesnt fix things in the side ways plane of operation.
....<snip>Sorry for jumping back in this thread as I hadn't read the all the posts before! :( :(

Ron is the 101 the same width between the chassis rails as the Rangie?

Why I ask , is because the 101 was originally designed off the Land Rover and in fact using series FC transmission parts on the early prototypes. Similarly the Range Rover got the same chassis width as the series LR for the same reason and it follows that when they adapted the Ferguson/David Brown gearbox for the RR it was done using the LR chassis width.

<snip>.....
As for the steering box , adjust the silly thing !
It is a recirulating ball ball type.
That means if the thing has oil in it and then bearings are OK it will be perfect.
I did a steering box adjustment in the sand at Stockton beach with two shifters......its easy.
.....<snip>Garry

Ron is correct the recirculating ball steering box is very good and you should be able to adjust the slack out of it.

If you can't adjust the slack out of it, it could be because of wear and the usual fix is to replace the ball bearings with some a few thou' oversize.

I have however also heard of the Land Rover box where the steel plate that returns the balls to the recirculating channel had worn through and the balls were dropping out into the bottom of the box. The symptoms immediately before the terminal failure was that the steering was rapidly becoming vague as more balls dropped through.

What I'm saying is that adjust it up but if it doesn't improve either dismantle it and inspect the condition yourself or send it off to a steering specialist.

Diana

[101RRS]

What I'm saying is if it doesn't improve either dismantle it and inspect the condition yourself or send it off to a steering specialist.

Diana

Or just replace it with the brand new one I have sitting in my garage.

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Or just replace it with the brand new one I have sitting in my garage.
GarryThat option should work well :cool:

How lucky are you to have a new one to fit! :)

[101RRS]

It was one of the spares that came with my 101 - totally brand new, still in delivery wrapping. I also got a compete steering system from steering wheel, column and box, relay, tie rods ad steering arms - will come in handy one day.

Apparently when the ball bearings fail, inside the steering shaft can come adrift from then box and then no steering. I have no evidence of the balls failing so I will adjust up first.

Garry

[101 Ron]

Diana.
You are correct about chassis width.
The point I was trying to make is the 101s front tail shaft angles are all wrong , not just in the vertical plane , but in the horizontal plane too.
The chassis width of the 101 which also affects spring placement to a large degree and diff offset...etc.
The high drive drive angles with the horizontal offsets all are apart of the problem and this in turn is also affected by the transmission design .
The compact nature of the original army specs for the 101 made some design compromises necessary.
It is also so interesting to note the 101s tailshaft vibes on the V8 prototypes with standard bell housings came from the back as well as the front.
I have played with the rear drive line angles of my 101 by using caster correction wedges under the springs with no effects as the rear diff is offset slightly different to the front diff .
Regards Ron
PS on the series two F/C with the springs wider apart did they change the diff offset ?

[101 Ron]

Garry
I found on my 101 today a problem with the steering.
As I said earlier I had to adjust my steering box on a trip.
Today when testing the brakes I found the steering not as tight as it should be.
I checked the steering box again...OK
It took a while as it doesn't show up well due to its location under the floor and in the chassis, the pitman arm was a bit loose.
The pitman arm if loose will not be loose in the normal way, but will twist or rock side to side under load so it is hard to see unless you are very careful.
About 3/4s of a turn with a 1,15/6 ring spanner is all it took to.make a improvement, not in steering play but precision at higher speeds.
I hope spreading around our trials and tribulations helps a bit.