S1 wont start

[shamirj]

hi all, the s1 86 inch 55 model wont start. checked battery good, ignition clicks but motor wont turn over, someone recommended the misaligned teeth due to wearing on the flywheel and starter motor. fan blade off at moment, tried to turn the crankshaft but unable with force. some thing has seized. thinking of pulling out starter and having a look at that. can the teeth on flywheel and starter misalign and trap each other hence no rotation if so how do i re align by removal of the starter. dont wont to remove gearbox yet. :)cheers

[JDNSW]

Series 1 should have a starter with a removable cover on the end of the shaft. This should see a square, which can be used to wind the starter out of mesh, which is most likely the problem (will not start the engine moving in many cases if the starter is not moving when load comes on to it). If the starter is a later one without this facility, the only alternative is to turn it with a crankhandle, but this may not be possible if the starter is in mesh, due to the gear ratio, particularly if things are a bit tight.

If the problem really is misalignment, which I doubt, then it will be due to damaged teeth on the flywheel (quite possible), damaged pinion teeth, or bent pinion shaft, or loose starter. There is no adjustment, just fix/replace the necessary bits.

Other possibilities include the engine being seized or very stiff to turn for a whole variety of possible reasons, or the starter poling due to worn bushes, or the starter not working very well due to worn or sticking brushes or dirty commutator.

But first of all, I would make sure that there is not a bad connection somewhere - check the actual voltage at the starter (between the starter terminal and the frame of the starter). This should drop to around eight volts when starting. If there is little drop, the starter has a problem, if the drop is very large (to 1v or less), there is a bad connection somewhere.

John

P.S. I assume when you say ignition clicks, you are actually operating the starter button?

John

[mike 90 RR]

If the motor won't turn and the start motor is not meshed

Take the spark plugs out ... and give it a turn

Mike

[shamirj]

Still wont start, i pulled out the starter and we had the starter checked its ok and working but not on the car. pulled out the 4 spark plugs, tried turning the engine by hand no turn at all, tried levering the flywheel no budge completely seized. tried towing in gear to loosen things up a little no diff, tried with low range, hi range, in gear in neutral no diff. how can i get the motor to move ... remember 2 weeks ago it started fine and drove.. i did wash the car since so thinking the water got in somewhere and seized rusted in... can the starter turn the motor over if i reconnect or not.. dont wont to pull apart motor or g'box... yet... tried spraying wd40 in spark plugs hoping that will loosen something. any ideas please :(

[JDNSW]

Sounds as if the engine has seized, probably due to water getting into the bore of at least one cylinder. (assuming that the last shutdown was normal)

Try filling each cylinder as full as you can with penetrating oil and leave for a few days, then try turning by hand with the plugs out. If this does not work, I am afraid the head will have to come off for inspection at the very least. (if you have compressed air available try blowing into each plug hole and see if you blow any water out - this may tell you which cylinder to concentrate on, plus getting rid of most of the water; if there is any signs of water missing from the cooling system, drain the coolant to below head level.)

You may be able to get more leverage than the crankhandle using a suitable spanner on the nut that is the starting dog.

John

[chazza]

I unseized my 80" by filling the bores with diesolene and leaving it for 2 weeks. It came free with a seriously hearty heave on the starting handle, spraying diesolene all over the place in the process. :D

If this is the cause of the seizure, investigate how the water got in, or it will happen again :(

Cheers Charlie

[mike 90 RR]

If this is the cause of the seizure, investigate how the water got in, or it will happen again :(

Cheers Charlie

Off with it's head :angel: ....

Mike

;)

[shamirj]

thanks for all the replies and here is the latest update - poured some runny engine oil in the top of the head via the spark plugs and them some more runny oil to see if this lubricates the engine. poured large amounts of oil in and only the 3rd spark plug hole from the front did not go down others did. im guessing this maybe the prob. radiator is off, sparks out, starter motor off. im going to let it sit for 1 week and then try again on the weekend to see if i can turn the thing over. tried towing the thing in gear front and back but this didnt help either. pulled it 5metres or so. if all else fails i will be taking the head off to inspect further. i have tried turning via the flywheel but dont want to break the teeth, have tried turning on the front crank nut below fan blade but no go either. alternator fan belt off as well.. keep u posted. got to get this thing to turn over. any other suggestions pls:(

[mike 90 RR]

As Chazza said ... Add diesel to the bore and leave it for a couple of days

If number 3 is the offender ... Then this bore only ... check & add to the level "every so often"

You will have to pump it in .. so as mix it in the water & oil solution that is already in it

Mike
:(

[shamirj]

Oil is still sitting in 3rd cyl and i was wondering whether or not i could lightly tap/hammer with a screwdriver or steel tube via the spark plug hole the top of the piston to push it down. Its worth a shot i guess. Will try to post a pic later in the week. cheers:o

[JDNSW]

Oil is still sitting in 3rd cyl and i was wondering whether or not i could lightly tap/hammer with a screwdriver or steel tube via the spark plug hole the top of the piston to push it down. Its worth a shot i guess. Will try to post a pic later in the week. cheers:o

DO NOT USE A STEEL ANYTHING! You are likely to damage the piston and/or the thread of the plug hole. Use something like aluminium or wood. This is unlikely to be successful, as the force you can put on the piston will be less than the connecting rod will with you swinging on the crank. Mind you, both at the same time might help.

One point is that there is no guarantee that the cylinder holding oil is the problem one - the others may not be holding simply because the exhaust valve, which is lower than the plug hole, is at least slightly open. Did you manage to blow any water out of any cylinder?

I think it may be about head off time before you damage something, although just leaving it to soak in penetrating oil or diesel may work after a week or so.

I would think that even if you free it, you would want to pull the head off to check what the problem was anyway, so you might as well do it sooner rather than later - it is not a very big job.

John

[chazza]

If you don't have a starting handle it is time to get one made - you can exert far more torque on the crank by pulling on that, than you will with a spanner on the nut whilst leaning into the engine bay. If you do remove the head you will still need to be able to turn the crankshaft anyway, so a starting handle is essential. Diesolene is a better penetrating oil.

I also advise against hitting the piston, you will only damage it. If it does free up don't forget to change the oil. Hope it all goes well,

Cheers Charlie

PS Have you found any external holes where the water might have got in after the washing?

[Aaron IIA]

When you try to free it by towing, what gear are you using? You should be using fourth gear in high range, front axle engaged. Are you sure that the gearbox has not selected two gears at the one time? Try disengaging the cluth (pedal down) and hand cranking the engine.

Aaron.