How to improve the Feebie1

[SuperMono]

Not a question or an example, just an idea I have thought about for a while.

Step 1: Source a later model Freebie1 Diesel auto.
Step 2: Lift the suspension by say 40mm (not the 50 I did).
Step 3: Go up in wheel/tyre size.
Step 4: Fit the IRD unit out of a V6.

I haven't bothered measuring or calculating, just making observations and thinking.

The Diesel auto is the best bet for a Freebie1 that sees any off road work.

More ground clearance is required, but a 50mm suspension lift is in my experience (well I have done it) too much and has compounding negative impact on some mechanical aspects.

So enter the bigger wheel/tyre combo, but this impacts on gearing.

So enter the V6 IRD and the reduction in gearing back to a sensible level.

Might actually end up too low in gearing for serious highway work, but seeing I don't really do that I wouldn't really care.


?

[101RRS]

Isn't the IRD in the V6 the same as the rest?

The auto will cover for the bigger wheels.

The vehicle you describe is a FL1 TD4 Auto :)

The other mod is to fit a disco CDL into a steel tube and replace the VC.

Garry

[dmdigital]

How to improve the Feebie1


... trade it in on a Defender :Rolling:


:wasntme:









Sorry, could help that! It was just begging for a reply. Actually I like the Freebie and nearly bought one when they first came out.

[SuperMono]

Isn't the IRD in the V6 the same as the rest?

No the reduction ratio is different, otherwise the TD4 would have a cruising speed on the highway of about 60kph.



How to improve the Feebie1


... trade it in on a Defender :Rolling:

I expected at least 6 response like that :)

I like my compromise in a smaller, softer package than a Defender.

[101RRS]

No the reduction ratio is different, otherwise the TD4 would have a cruising speed on the highway of about 60kph.

I have an IRD out of a TD4 in my 98 XEDI and as a result I cruise at a much higher speed for same revs. 3000rpm gives 123kph where the original XEDI IRD was giving just over 100kph at 3000rpm - the downside is slow speed offroad is a bit of a pain.

Oh and as far as that other comment goes - why would you want to drive a dinosaur like a Defender on the road , when you can drive a Freelander .

Garry

[Sprint]

I like my compromise in a smaller, softer package.well at least we know you're not female!

[samuelclarke]

How to improve the Feebie1


... trade it in on a Defender :Rolling:


Very true!! :angel:

Our family car is a Freelander XEDI - nice car and best of it's class without a doubt. But we've had and still having problems with it. I now drive a Defender and wouldn't drive anything else...honest. ;) The Freelander is mainly my mum's vehicle now, but she is wanting to sell it and get a Defender - and she's in her 60's! :cool:

Anyways, not wanting to hijack the thread...and back on topic if I was setting up a Freelander (FL) for off road:

40mm lift
Full underbody protection - even with the lift it's too low
BFG's in 215/75/R15 - have seen these on a FL and they work well
Good recovery points - face it you're going to need them in a FL!
Tow hitch mounted winch - as above...

Really though in my experience in driving the Freelander off road, and I've done a fair bit, if you have the skill you can get through a lot - what really lets it down is no low range...hence for this and a host of other reasons I have a Defender. :wasntme:

[Mockery]

So the Td4 has a ratio of 1.467 : 1,
and the V6 has a ratio of 1.359 : 1.

that's a 7.95% increase in drive ratio...

Now stock diameter on 225/55R17 comes to about 680mm (26.7in).
Increase that by the percentage gives 733mm (28.8in), which happens to be the exact (theoretical) diameter of 235/75R15.
I have this size installed at the moment, I think it's about as big as you can go before hitting interference issues at full lock. I get a very slight rub where the inside front edge meets the splashguards.

I'd like to look at getting rims with less offset so wider or taller tyres could be used. I reckon there's about an inch left before they stick out from under the flares.
Also, 15in. tyres seem to only come in 6ply, and a 16in. rim opens up options for stronger tyres.


I'm not exactly an expert off-roader yet, but I've done a bit in my Td4 and I have to say it tends to run into clearance issues long before torque or gearing becomes a problem. The torque converter effect of the Auto makes it bloody easy.
So, I would say find *some* way to get even bigger tyres on for more lift, and maybe then the V6 IRD might become necessary.

@SuperMono: is it mainly the CV stress, or exhaust interference, or something else which makes you recommend not going the full 50mm?

[SuperMono]

@SuperMono: is it mainly the CV stress, or exhaust interference, or something else which makes you recommend not going the full 50mm?

Read the thread on the Bearmach Lift I fitted, yes there is various clearance issues and yes the CVs seem to be pushing the limit.
40mm and 20mm tyre diameter would give the same lift with less issues (although I think the steering arms and anti-roll bar would still foul, just not by as much) but you would suffer a little on gearing.

[Mockery]

Been thinking a bit more about the IRD thing...

Bearing in mind the ratios at this page:
Freelander - Intermediate Reduction Drive (IRD) - Land Rover (http://www.myfreelander.co.uk/Transmission/ird.htm)
Freelander - Manual Gearbox - Jatco - Land Rover (http://www.myfreelander.co.uk/Transmission/jatco.htm)
Wondering where that ratio of 1.467 or 1.359 fits in the pic quoted below.
Where they say 'final drive', is that the rear diff ratio, or the last thing out of the gearbox?

Would you need to swap anything else to keep the front & rear wheels in sync?
Is the fitment likely to just be a straight bolt-up?



http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/865/29682408520ba9c5dd8cet8.jpg



And then the other thing, about Disco Centre Diff Locking. Is there any point when the VCU is pretty much an automatic CDL? Seems like an unnecessary effort, for something you can only engage when you're sure that binding won't be a problem, i.e. loose-ish surface.
Maybe if you were (theoretically) going to have a locking rear diff as well?

[Mockery]

Bump, anyone able to shed light on my ratio question?

[beforethevision]

The final drive is just before the output to the gearbox.

To sort the different ratios for the IRD i would have to think. Maybe tonight.
I think i have it all on spreadsheet at home.

Cheers!

[Mockery]

oh wait, i realised one of the pages I linked to actually says 'manual gearbox' at the top. Wasn't interested in thinking about that, yet.
I saw where it said 'Jatco' and thought it was the auto. I'm still confused.

I'm more used to thinking about motorcycles, thankfully a much simpler system.
Crankshaft -[primary reduction gears]> countershaft -[transmission gears]> output shaft -[chain (final) drive]> rear wheel.

Definitely will appreciate it if you can help put the correct picture in my head!

[Junosi]

Scuse me if I'm repeating what others may of already said, trying to clear the muddle from own head as much as anything. Going to be some maths ahead.

I think the words 'Final Drive' are being misused a fair bit in the literature I've been reading. IMHO there is only one 'Final' drive and that is the last and 'final' gearset before the wheels - which is usually the diff gearset. All the other 'final' drives that I keep reading about often aren't really all that 'final' as there's often another gearset after them. You could call if final for the particular gearset you're talking about I suppose - like gearbox final, ird final, diff final etc.

In the Freelander we've got a few gearing reductions from the engine - we've got gearbox final reduction, gear selection reduction (ie 5th gear) as well as IRD reduction for the front wheels. The back adds a bit more complexity with rear diff and other IRD gearing which I won't go into.

Here's a standard L series gearbox - which is PG1 type gearbox S7EMU (ref. Rover PG1 gearbox - SELOC TechWiki (http://wiki.seloc.org/a/Rover_PG1_gearbox))
1st 3.25
2nd 1.895
3rd 1.222
4th 0.848
5th 0.649
Final output ratio 3.647
So in 5th gear, in an L Series, the gearbox has a reduction of 2.366903 (3.647 x 0.649) for each engine RPM (1000rpm = 422.5 gearbox output RPM) then from the gearbox output it enters the IRD

Here's a standard 1.8 gearbox - which is also a PG1 type gearbox S4EM with the same gears and a different final output
1st 3.25
2nd 1.895
3rd 1.222
4th 0.848
5th 0.649
Final output ratio 4.2
So in 5th gear, in a 1.8, the gearbox has a reduction of 2.7258 (4.2 x 0.649) for each engine RPM (1000rpm = 366.8 gearbox output RPM) then from the gearbox output it enters the IRD

The gearing difference being because the petrol 1.8 is designed to rev higher than the diesel.

Enter the IRD. I think there's 3 different ratio IRD's out there with different 'final' ratios - the 'old one' which is 1.458, the >2000 one which is 1.467 and the V6 which is 1.359. They are all married up to different gearboxes - which alters the vehicles overall gearing reduction. Lets assume we've got the 1.467 one on an L series with L series gearbox. So in the L series at 1000rpm (engine) we've got 422.5 gearbox rpm entering the IRD - with its reduction of 1.467 that gives us 288rpm leaving the IRD to the wheels - which means the wheels are turning at 288rpm for each 1000rpm of the engine in 5th gear.

Freelander tyres are about 2.177m in circumference for 195/80r15 when new and fully inflated - so if the wheels are turning at 288rpm then they're travelling 37.6kmh for each 1000rpm of the engine - which means at 100kmh you're doing 2658rpm

Long winded I know - but in answer to 'where that ratio of 1.467 fits in' - its simply the overall reduction ratio of the IRD - taken from the gearbox to the front wheels - 422.5 goes into the IRD and 288 leaves the IRD - that's a ratio of 1.467. On the diagram it would be represented by the horizontal line that goes through the front drive outputs.

Clark


[quote=Mockery;951859]Been thinking a bit more about the IRD thing...

Wondering where that ratio of 1.467 or 1.359 fits in the pic quoted below.
Where they say 'final drive', is that the rear diff ratio, or the last thing out of the gearbox?

Would you need to swap anything else to keep the front & rear wheels in sync?
Is the fitment likely to just be a straight bolt-up?

[Mockery]

I fired an email to Ashcroft transmissions, I figure they should be able to say for sure one way or the other whether it could work.

If it does, I figure you could be quite comfortable driving 31" wheels with that ratio, as it's an equivalent step as my current off-road setup is from my road wheels.
Just gotta figure how to make them fit... end up with about 2" lift from wheels, probably require at least 3" on the suspension ...I've got ideas, ways and means will be found...

[Mockery]

Reply from Ashcroft:



Hi,



the ratios are different on the early and later type IRD's, there are 2 early types, one for petrol and one for diesel and 2 later types, one petrol and one diesel,



the 2 early ones are the same ratio, the 2 later ones are the same ratio,



the difference between the petrol and diesel is the breather and the cooler, if you change these you can swap them but if they are both the late type the ratios will be the same,



Dave