td5 or new 4 cyl which is better

[awest130]

what are the pros and cons of both these motors. do the new motors have a better spread of power than the td5.any probs to look for with the new motor or am I better sticking with the td5.:)

[Psimpson7]

Search will bring up a lot of threads. There is a lot more to it than just the engine. There are a lot of changes.

Some people seem to be having a lot of issues with the Puma Defenders, but some dont seem to have any, in the same way that some people had lots of issues with the TD5 (Espcially at the start) and some had none.

If its a second hand one you are looking at I would personally go for a late TD5 over an early puma, but if you can afford a new 09 Puma I reckon that should be a good buy.

The newer ones seem to have a few issues that the TD5 era ones didnt. stuff like Diff problems and so on.

Sure both will give you good service.

[one_iota]

I can't do a back to back comparison with a Td5 as this is my first Defender...however I'll give you my view of the Puma engine:

1. It's a new motor and therefore comes with a 3 year 100,000 km warranty :p;)

2. The engine is well matched to the 6 speed transmission and with the torque band it sits comfortably and quietly at the maximum speed limit.

3. Turbo lag is not detectable (the Tdi was almost comatose below 1800 rpm).

4. Fuel consumption is reasonable for the performance. I get 11l/100km in the city but have had 10l/100km on long hauls at highway speeds.

5. In low range the whole package performs remarkably well. The Traction Control and Anti-stall coupled with a very low first means that it will crawl its way out of tight spots with out much intervention from the driver.

I think that the Td5 sounds better and from all reports has proven itself to be a fine engine all other things being equal.

The reliability thing is always questioned and some of us have had a better run than others. There are pages of threads here dealing with the puma faults so spend some time reading up.

I have come to the conclusion rightly or wrongly that we Defender owners are a conservative lot harbouring a deep mistrust of any change to the previous model and claiming that ours was the last true Defender/Land Rover and that the marque has gone to the dogs....but if change is what it takes to keep the marque alive then bring on change.:D

[Yorkshire_Jon]

what are the pros and cons of both these motors. do the new motors have a better spread of power than the td5.any probs to look for with the new motor or am I better sticking with the td5.:)

A proper open ended question if ever there was one!!

As others have said a lot changed and its not just the engine that needs to be considered.

However, as the questions specifically relates to the engine... The TD5 is the better engine, of that Im sure. Thats not to say its the "best" Defender though!!

When I bought my last Defender (in 2007) I could have had the last of the TD5's or a new Puma - I went for the last of the TD5.

If I could buy a brand new TD5 now with all the benefits of warrenty etc etc or a Puma - Id still buy the TD5. The fact is though that times move on and if you can afford a new motor, the PUMA would be the one to get due to the warrenty and all the other benefits a new motor gives. If you looking for a car a few years old though, then Id hunt out a nice, cared for TD5.

Regards,
Jon

[Jock The Rock]

I have come to the conclusion rightly or wrongly that we Defender owners are a conservative lot harbouring a deep mistrust of any change to the previous model and claiming that ours was the last true Defender/Land Rover and that the marque has gone to the dogs....but if change is what it takes to keep the marque alive then bring on change.:D

Haha you are very rightly :D

Get a 300 Tdi they are the best :wasntme: :angel:

[tempestv8]

I have driven both the TD5 Defender and recently a PUMA Defender.

I *much* prefer the PUMA motor over the TD5, assuming both are stock. The Ford Transit diesel is just that much more refined and does not have the turbo lag that is so noticeable on the TD5.

The TD5 has a very "angry" engine note, which I find a bit tiring. The Ford motor seems more like an "old school" diesel, which has a faintly reassuring clatter about it. It just *sounds* more reliable, if that concept, as stupid as it sounds, can be grasped.

The 6 speed gearbox is based on the Disco 3 manual gearbox, and might even be stronger than the TD5's 5 speed gearbox, since the later gearbox is mated to much more powerful engines in the Discovery 3 range compared to the relatively underpowered V8 and TD5 in the Discovery II range.

I'm not a believer of "newer, therefore must be better" school of thinking, but I would rather buy a new Puma than a used TD5 simply because of the way the motor feels when driving it.

This is my perspective as a Disco II V8 auto owner.

[tempestv8]

I was chatting to a Defender TD5 owner who has had his vehicle since new back in 1999. He has test driven the Puma Defender and he too shares my views, i.e. he prefers the new Puma motor because it doesn't have the very noticeable turbo lag that his TD5 has.

He is a Land Rover enthusiast through and through.

So that's one more real vote for the Puma :-)

[SVX37]

A proper open ended question if ever there was one!!

As others have said a lot changed and its not just the engine that needs to be considered.

However, as the questions specifically relates to the engine... The TD5 is the better engine, of that Im sure. Thats not to say its the "best" Defender though!!

When I bought my last Defender (in 2007) I could have had the last of the TD5's or a new Puma - I went for the last of the TD5.

If I could buy a brand new TD5 now with all the benefits of warrenty etc etc or a Puma - Id still buy the TD5. The fact is though that times move on and if you can afford a new motor, the PUMA would be the one to get due to the warrenty and all the other benefits a new motor gives. If you looking for a car a few years old though, then Id hunt out a nice, cared for TD5.

Regards,
Jon

Hi Jon,

Have you ever compared the 2 motors off road, low range, first gear, going up an incline? Serious turbo lag leads to stalling...check the threads too. The Puma is superior in this test. Along with being more driveable on road, with 6 gears at less revs and less noise. I like the TD5 - had a Series 2 Disco... but when all is considered, the better motor is the Puma IMHO.

Cheers,

[Blknight.aus]

much of a muchness..

the tech level of the engines is the same.

the td5 has grown up so its teething problems are over and the common faults and cures known.

the same should be said for the puma as its just a hacked transit donk. BUT that aint the case things are happening to the rover version of the rover version of the engine that just aint happening in the vans BUT the reverse isnt true, some of the things that turn up in the vans are turning up in the rover version.

there are also many things that are changed with the vehicle that arent strictly related to the engine but because they were changed when the engine changed are credited with being "a puma fault" or "a td5 fault"

are you specifically asking about the engine OR the vehicles to which that engine is mounted?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

We bought our TD5 new in 2005. I like the Puma. The main reason is that it's a bit quieter, has a 6 speed box, and has better AC. However our chipped TD5 has massively more power than a PUMA and it has the front vent flaps which I love.

All in all it's not enough to make me trade up. However if I was looking to buy now and could afford a new one I'd probably go the PUMA. Equally, buying a near new TD5 (maybe under still under warranty) would also be a good call as you could use the saved money for fruit.

Therein lies a problem I have with new vehicles - that is they are just a starting point. IE most people will fit numerous options to them - many of which are useful if you are going to use the car for touring. You should consider that when looking at a used TD5 with all the fruit as compared to a new PUMA that is a blank canvas.

IMHO the few niggles we are seeing now I expected. However I also think that they will overcome these and the things that I like about the td5 as in easy modification and electronic diagnosis tools will also come in time.

[SVX37]

We bought our TD5 new in 2005. I like the Puma. The main reason is that it's a bit quieter, has a 6 speed box, and has better AC. However our chipped TD5 has massively more power than a PUMA and it has the front vent flaps which I love.

All in all it's not enough to make me trade up. However if I was looking to buy now and could afford a new one I'd probably go the PUMA. Equally, buying a near new TD5 (maybe under still under warranty) would also be a good call as you could use the saved money for fruit.

Therein lies a problem I have with new vehicles - that is they are just a starting point. IE most people will fit numerous options to them - many of which are useful if you are going to use the car for touring. You should consider that when looking at a used TD5 with all the fruit as compared to a new PUMA that is a blank canvas.

IMHO the few niggles we are seeing now I expected. However I also think that they will overcome these and the things that I like about the td5 as in easy modification and electronic diagnosis tools will also come in time.

Hi Captain Lightfoot.....I am going to start a chip thread soon but what brand did u fit?
Cheers,

[dmdigital]

Puma for me, the engine and gearbox is a lot more responsive than the Td5.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Hi Jon,

Have you ever compared the 2 motors off road, low range, first gear, going up an incline? Serious turbo lag leads to stalling...check the threads too. The Puma is superior in this test. Along with being more driveable on road, with 6 gears at less revs and less noise. I like the TD5 - had a Series 2 Disco... but when all is considered, the better motor is the Puma IMHO.

Cheers,

Yes - I drive them all... alot!

Like I said its a very open ended question - the question asked about the engine, not the car.

If we are talking about the car as a whole...
I much prefer the new gearbox, 1st is much lower than in the R380 and the 6 gears are consequently better spaced, therefore much better suited for towing. The dash is nicer, but less space for rubbish on long trips. Better air-con, better heater (for us UK people). Quieter in the cabin.

There are a few questions that remain un-answered with regard to lifting the vehicles and long term reliability of prop-shafts etc due to the revised prop lengths, but thats a minor thing. As too is induced vibration due to lifting.

As for turbo lag leading to stalling on the TD5 - thats not correct. The anti-stall always kicks in so long as you keep your foot off the loud pedal. Once rolling, then apply the gas. It has never let me down, even when towing heavy trailers up long uphill tracks.

...There could be a TDV6 in my next Defender:D

Regards,
Jon

[BlueWagon]

It took me just over a week to organise the installation of a baby seat bolt in my new Puma and I couldn't sell my old TD5 until that was organised...so for just over a week there I was driving both the TD5 and the Puma daily and amongst many things, noticed the following;

1. The Puma is much "nicer" to drive, more comfortable seats, quieter etc.

2. The Puma's airconditioning actually conditions the air.

3. The Puma's doors (especially the back door) close like "normal" doors.

4. I don't have to hover around the driver's side door waiting for everyone to dsembark and close their doors before I can centrally lock with the key. With the Puma you just press the little button anywhere near the car and presto...the keyless locking has been a reallly unexpected bonus.

I was extremely happy with my TD5 Defender but after 5 years and 140,000km I was starting to get hassles (diffs, brakes, clutch, engine noises etc) and I wanted a vehicle with a new car warranty. However I would have been perfectly happy with a brand new TD5 Defender...until I drove the Puma.

My advice is... if you aren't sure which way to go...DO NOT TEST DRIVE a Puma. There'll be no going back!!

Hope this helps

Cheers
Mark

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Hi Captain Lightfoot.....I am going to start a chip thread soon but what brand did u fit?
Cheers,
Tombraider of AULRO here did the job :) Until you've driven one you just don't believe it....

With about $700 worth of mods the question isn't whether you can see off a puma... it's whether you can see off a classic rangie V8. :o

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Tombraider of AULRO here did the job :) Until you've driven one you just don't believe it....

With about $700 worth of mods the question isn't whether you can see off a puma... it's whether you can see off a classic rangie V8. :o

Digressing off topic here a little and also away from what both vehicles are about, but a remapped TD5 will knock spots of a remapped puma - both in torque delivery and get up and go...

No doubt about it though the puma is a comfier and quieter place to be!

[rick130]

Digressing off topic here a little and also away from what both vehicles are about, but a remapped TD5 will knock spots of a remapped puma - both in torque delivery and get up and go...

<snip>

Then imagine if you truly equalled them up and fitted a VNT to a TD5 :D (says he who has a 300Tdi)

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Then imagine if you truly equalled them up and fitted a VNT to a TD5 :D (says he who has a 300Tdi)

Yes. A VNT on a TD5 does make the bottom end much more responsive. Shouldnt be long before they are commercially available!

[spudboy]

I would concur with the general feeling of the previous comments.

Nothing wrong with the TD5, but I prefer the Puma by a good margin. Both for the engine side of things and the all round higher level of civilization of the Puma.

The 2 small negatives (for me) are that my Puma doesn't get quite as good milage as my TD5 (11L/100 vs 10L/100), although as the kms get a bit higher, the Puma is getting better, and I miss my front vents (if you want air circulation, you have to have the fan on, which I dislike compared to opening vents on the TD5).

[Scallops]

....my Puma doesn't get quite as good milage as my TD5 (11L/100 vs 10L/100), although as the kms get a bit higher, the Puma is getting better....

I dunno, I got 9.4km per 100 driving around Australia - 800 kg plus on board, stuff all over the roof, driving across 2 deserts in 2nd gear with the diff locked and the tyres at 16 psi!

[spudboy]

It's the hills driving that kills my mileage. We live on the other side of the Adelaide Hills from Adelaide, so every trip to town is up and over, via Mt Lofty, and then down to Adelaide. Over 1/2 a KM of vertical upping and downing each time.

On a flat highway trip they both get a lot better.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I dunno, I got 9.4km per 100 driving around Australia - 800 kg plus on board, stuff all over the roof, driving across 2 deserts in 2nd gear with the diff locked and the tyres at 16 psi!

How fast was your average speed? I bet that 6th gear is what is helping the most though. The td5 in 5th at 100k is turning 2500 :o

[Scallops]

How fast was your average speed? I bet that 6th gear is what is helping the most though. The td5 in 5th at 100k is turning 2500 :o

Average speed I don't know (varied so much depending on place) - but I rarely, if ever, drive at over 90km/h - perfect in 6th gear.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Average speed I don't know (varied so much depending on place) - but I rarely, if ever, drive at over 90km/h - perfect in 6th gear.

That would be a big help. I've noticed my consumption goes up substantially the faster you drive. Defender aero drag isn't great. :D:D

At 110 it's about 11-11.5 l/100. At 100 it drops to 10.5. On one trip there was a football night and we were racing to get to Tennant Creek and we were doing 120+ into a big headwind and we scored about 15l/100 - our record. I've never tried 90 for long enough to get a result :angel: I do prefer to travel at around 100 as the noise level is still pleasant. At over 110 for long periods it gets a bit much :wasntme:

[awest130]

thanks all, plenty of pros and cons to mull over some more! on a sidenote what is vnt??

[discowhite]

vairable nozzle turbo.

cheers phil

[skip2102]

Seems to me that those with TD5's arn't going to "dis" their motor - so their votes are going with the TD5. Those who've bought the Puma aren't going to admit the old motors better...

All I can offer is that my 09 Puma is everything I expected and more, a defender that does 120km all day at 10L/100kms and can actually overtake up hills! All this and it can still perform better off road stock than my D8 work Troopy! I'm one happy camper....

[BilboBoggles]

I bought my wife a new PUMA (lots of kids + 7 seats = good), and I kept my Td5. So I drive both regularly.

There is nothing like a warranty for taking away worries about minor noises. My Puma's spent 3 months of it's first 6 months in the workshop for a variety of issues, but this did not cost a cent.. (Well I suppose lost depreciation, lack of use... Mmm PErhaps it did cost me a heap...) But anyway, the teething problems seem to be over.. Although it's booked in to get a rusty bulkhead repaired soon.

Driving wise - the PUMA wins hands down. It's so much more powerful, that the TD5. The seats are nicer. It's cleaner, there's no permanent texta marks on the hoodlining where the kids got to it.. etc. A new car always beats an old car in driving experience. However the TD5 has no sway bars and seems to handle articulation better than the PUMA, also it has softer suspension offroad. The PUMA's traction control is smoother however, seems to "pulse" a lot quicker than the TD5. So for a pure offroader - I think the TD5 has slightly better potential - barring the better TC in the PUMA.

The deciding factor for me would be the warranty. I just spent $2000 having the TD5's roof reattached and braced where the corner frames popped out + a heap of other minor repairs. Then earlier in the year another 2.5k on something else I don't remember. And now the clutch has started juddering. I spend on average 7k a year keeping the old TD5 on the road. So a new car with a warranty is the go unless you can do the repairs yourself.

[Blknight.aus]

This post (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/665909-post5.html) is the side by side I did of them and it was pre tombie Oh-My-God-when-did-I-get-a-saturn-5-installed chip.

I still stand by the final comment


This is the civilised defender. Its the one you buy when you have to buy a utiltarian landrover that the wife needs to drive.