Replacement fuel injection pump is alive !

[Junosi]

Hi all, thought I'd give an update to my fuel injection pump woes. A brief history would be that I bought a non running 1999 Freelander XEdi with a variety of issues - all the usual Flandy issues plus a few more for good measure.

Anyways after a bit of discussion on these forums and a ton of google research I decided my pump was 'pining for the fjords' (dead) and wanted to replace it. So I bought a low km's replacement pump from Wales for £60 and another £40 for postage - basically $200 aussy to my door, much cheaper than anything I could find locally. The pump I bought was a 0 460 414 992 L 580 - which is an 11mm pump whereas my old pump was a 10mm pump - bigger is better is my thought. It came off a Rover 200 I believe.

First thing I noticed when taking off my old pump from the Flandy was that the pump timing pin wouldn't go in. I'd pinned the flywheel and the cam timing mark was lined up so the pump pulley should be in the right spot to be pinned - but it was miles out. By miles out I mean about 120 degrees out ... like it was never going to run like that and I'd be lucky to get away with no engine damage if it did. After much head scratching and self doubt as to what I'd done wrong I decided to proceed as if I hadn't seen my pump being out 120 degrees. (In hindsight I suspect that a previous owner has had the pump off, tested it and found out that it was a norwegian blue and just slapped it back on willy nilly in a weird position - can't see how else it got like that)

The new replacement pump hadn't been locked before it was removed so after a little research I turned up a method of resetting them to their 'timed' position and locked it ready to install. Was fairly easy to put the new one in place. The pump pulley also now lined up with the hole correctly so I could pin that now too.

Connected everything back up - hand cranked it a few revolutions to see if all the marks still lined up and then primed the pump full of diesel with the primer bulb.

The moment of truth .... I let the glowplug light go out and turned the ignition - after about 3 seconds of cranking it fired right up ! It is idling fine and seems to rev up as it should - no smoke cloud out the back either. Haven't taken it for a drive yet as there's a number of other things I want to do first but its all looking good so far.

So long story short is - replacement ebay pumps do work even if they're not originally from a Freelander. I can't tell you if going to 11mm was a good plan from a 10mm or not as I've never seen a 10mm running - in theory it provides more fuel which can equal more power - particularly if I also up my boost pressure a bit (via wastegate)

Anyways, I'm very happy with the results - project Flandy is proceeding nicely once more :D

Clark

[101RRS]

Clark - that is great news - the only issue I can see is that the ECU is geared to adjust the pump in response to the various sensors. Now if the fuel pressure is the same in the two pumps for given settings then the fact on is 10mm and the other is 11 mm should not make any difference as the injectors respond to pressure - higher pressure equates to higher fuel flow for a given time. I suspect there will be differences but if it is enough to make a difference - who knows until you drive it. If you were in the UK you can just get the ECU remapped to take all the changes into account - not sure about here in Australia but a Bosch rather than Landrover expert should be able to tell you. It is all Bosch stuff.

Cheers

Garry

[Junosi]

Good point Garry, although with slightly more volume being provided by the pump I'm wondering if the line pressure will be up a bit then making the injectors squirt a bit sooner and longer than they used to - effectively advancing the timing a little.

As an aside, I've just been running the engine up to temp so I can give it an oil change. It seemed to be hunting after a smooth idle and the engine light came on at 2000rpm. Checked all the plugs, no light at idle. After it had warmed up I took the revs up to redline slowly - never seen so much smoke :eek: Filled the garage and most of my neighbours yards. Let it return to idle and it seems to idle perfectly smooth now and on a return to redline almost no smoke this time - so thinking it just needed a bit of a blast out to clear itself out. Engine light has disappeared, but its got me cautious. No telling how long this engine has been sitting around for or the rep pump for that matter.

I'm planning on removing the EGR in the future. Is there anything wrong with removing the (water) plumbing to it now ? I'm thinking it might overheat and stick - but I've removed the vacuum line already so if it does stick it should stick shut if anything.

Clark

[101RRS]

Given what you have been through with this - I wouldn't go looking for more issues. The ECU should adjust things to account for variations so if it doesn't have a problem then I wouldn't bother. I would get the codes cleared at the earliest chance so that if there are issues in the future at least those isses will be recorded and not confused with other codes already there.

I would suspect that to take into account any extra fuel volume the ECU will just throttle back the fuel pump until the correct amount of fuel is provided in accordance with what the other sensors are telling the ECU.

Run it and see what happens - the ECU will make the required adjustments (we hope).

Garry

[Matplat]

The ECU will adjust the amount of fuel injected into the chamber according to the lamda sensor in the exhaust. The lamda sensor analyses the exhaust gases (I forget exactly how) and gives the ECU a signal indicating the current air/fuel ratio. The ECU then adjusts fuel input (by how long the injectors are open) according to the engine map programmed into it.

[101RRS]

The L series diesel does not have an exhaust sensor (lamda) and uses other systems to adjust the required level of fuel. The L series is not a common rail diesel. It is an old style mechanical diesel with the ECU just turning the injection pump up and down as required.

Clark - the Rave indicates any extra fuel that is supplied to the injectors is simply sent back to the tank - so if the pump you have does supply more than needed it should just go back to the tank.

Garry

[Junosi]

ah excellent - that's pretty much what I wanted to hear. Don't really want a smoky flandy.

Decided to take your advice and leave well enough alone for now - egr gets to live another day. I am going to go ahead and change all the belts though, did the FIP one already so going to do the other end and tackle the main timing belt - should do the alternator one (whatever you call that one) too while I'm in the area I suppose. Not knowing the cars history (I can guess it was a traumatic history) its cheap insurance.

Forgot to mention I replaced the IRD a few weeks back too - managed to get a 1.8 gearbox with attached IRD for $400 from a low k's 2000 model here in Melb - unsure if that means its the 'old' bad ratio IRD or the 'good' new one - either way the IRD is in perfect condition at this point. Gearbox is going back on fleabay as a 1.8 box isn't much good to me. Just need to source a decent VCU now - it'll be front drive only until then.

Clark

[Matplat]

You will want to search this one to be sure, but I was reading another post somewhere on here the other day, talking about the different gear ratios in the IRD depending on the engine, i.e. I am not sure you will definitely be able to do a straight swop between your diesel on and the 1.8 one. It would be pretty annoying to put it all back together and have it break down again 5 minutes down the road....

Hmmm I just read your post again and realised you ave already done it! I guess the ratios on those two are the same!

[Junosi]

Yep looked into that thorougly before I got myself a new IRD. As far as I know there's only 3 IRD types - the old one (bad), the new one (good) and the V6 one - although there might be two types of V6 IRD too I'm not sure as they don't concern me.

They swapped from the old one with bad ratios some time around 2000 I think - they were fitted to both the 1.8's and the diesels. It was the gearboxes that were different between the diesel and petrol - 1.8 petrol ones are 4.2 final ratio whereas L series are 3.647 I think - both using PG1 gearboxes.

[101RRS]

Matplat is correct that the overall ratio is lower in the 1.8 than the diesel but if I understand things (and it is hard to get a straight answer) it is achieved as Clark has indicated - in the gearbox not the IRD.

The IRDs changed in 2000 so it will not be clear whether you have the newer one until you drive it. If you haven't actually put the IRD you can check it - the rear drive should turn more per input when compared to the old one - ie the old one is lower geared. If I remember correctly the standard XEDI does about 100kph per 3000 rpm - my XEDI does have the newer IRD in and does about 120kph per 3000 rpm - is good on the highway but raises the overall gearing offroad - I am used to the smell of burning clutch in the morning.

I am told the EGR is a point of failure (not happened to me) so if they are not expensive it might be worth replacing it - but then - get the thing running and driving and then work through the things that need fixing.

There was a new VC on ebay for $1200 but it has gone now.

I take it that the IRD and gearbox on ebay now is yours - watching with interest - one bid so far - better than nothing.

Garry

[Junosi]

Yep the gearing differences between the 1.8 and diesel are definitely in the gearbox - the same gearbox (PG1) has been in a lot of different vehicles with at least 4 different final gearing applications. The diesel version on the Freelander also had upgraded bearings compared to the 1.8 version. Makes sense from Rovers point of view as they got to use the same IRD in both 1.8's and diesels while utilising their PG1 gearbox that they're already putting into a bunch of other vehicles. Its annoying that Rover didn't see fit to stamp their IRD's with an ident code. If/when I get myself a new VCU I'll be keeping an eye on it for signs of seizing to protect my IRD in future.

More info is available here
ref. Rover PG1 gearbox - SELOC TechWiki (http://wiki.seloc.org/a/Rover_PG1_gearbox)

And yes the failed IRD and good 1.8 gearbox on fleabay is mine :) Not sure who's going to buy the gearbox or when - they don't tend to die very often. But had plenty of interest in the dead IRD so far - visually the crownwheel and pinion look untouched by the shrapnel.

Using your figures I'll be able to tell which IRD I've got once I get it up to 100kph on the road.

Clark

[johnd]

Junosi

an interesting tale of man overcoming the odds!

I've got a 1999 diesel Freelander that has a multitude of problems (did I hear you laugh?) one of which is the diesel pump. Landrover diagnostics say its shot but it still generates pressure when the engine is cranking and the engine does run (it has burnt exhaust valve problems) so do I believe the computer or not?

I'd be very interested in the link you've found that details the "method of resetting them to their 'timed' position" as I'll need to do this on the weekend so I've also sent this request to you via Ebay since you volunteered you are selling bits at present.

Also you shipped a pump from the UK for 40 quid - who did you use? the best quote I've had is 70.

many thanks, johnd

[Junosi]

Hi John, I've replied to your PM but I'll post here too. Good to hear I'm not alone in the '99 diesel with lots of problems' basket :)

Landrover diagnostics (at Melb Landrover) were useless to me and in fact misdiagnosed my problem the one time I took Flandy in there. They told me I needed a new lift pump in the fuel tank - the L series doesn't have a lift pump, the injection pump does it all .... They did manage to reprogram a key fob for me though so I could start Flandy without having to use the painful PUK routine (my car had no ignition either when I bought it)

Anyways, the method for pump timing resetting was pretty basic. A user called MtechUK posted it in one of the UK Freelander forums - its the only place I saw mentioning it anywhere in all my searching. The VP37's have a woodruff slot on the shaft, you'll see it when the pulley is removed from the shaft. Line the woodruff slot up with a small stamped mark on the flange surface and that's it - lock it up with the locking pin on the pump (follow the torque spec). Both of my VP37's had the stamped flange mark in almost the same location - about the 11o'clock position looking at it end on. The 'official' way according to Bosch is to use a timing gauge in through the access hole and take two measurements - access hole is the middle bolt thing in the pump head by the four pipe outlets. The woodruff slot method isn't as accurate but it worked for me and should be very close to perfect if you're careful.

Here's the original link to the british forum post - Mtechuk's post is about 5 posts down, he goes on to say a little more later in the post.
http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f9/freelander-injection-pump-70989.html

As for british couriers. By far the cheapest I found was Cheap International Postage Rates to Australia (http://www.bananadoo.com/Australia.asp) - but requires the sender to create an account with them - which was quick, free and painless. My seller did this and it cost me £46. The next cheapest I found was Courier Quote - Shipment Details (http://www.interparcel.com/quote/) and they were £60 but less hassle to the seller.

Here's a couple of photo's:
VP37
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/05/451.jpg
Woodruff slot and flange stamp
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/05/452.jpg
Closeup flange stamp
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/05/453.jpg


Good luck

Clark

[101RRS]

I've got a 1999 diesel Freelander that has a multitude of problems (did I hear you laugh?) one of which is the diesel pump. Landrover diagnostics say its shot but it still generates pressure when the engine is cranking and the engine does run (it has burnt exhaust valve problems) so do I believe the computer or not?

The fuel shut-off solenoid in the fuel pump can cause issues and is easily got at. My "experts" told me that my pump was cactus but it was just a little bit of crud in the solenoid - just pulling it out and putting it back in fixed it.

Also the system is fully Bosch including the ECU programming - a Bosch fuel injection expert has better diagnostics than landrover and can "bench run" the pump without the car ECU.

Garry

[101RRS]

Clark - was you fuel pump actually cactus or just timed wrong? As I said ages ago - they are pretty reliable and I was surprised when you first said it was knackered.

Garry

[Junosi]

Both, it was 120 degrees out and cactus - I suspect one of the previous owners has had it off and in the shop for diagnosis - found it was dead and then put it back on in a hurry to sell to an unsuspecting customer and got the timing massively out.

Out of curiosity I installed the original (cactus) pump in place with the correct timing and it had all the same symptoms - no high pressure and nothign out the injectors. I've had the pump apart and there was a fair bit of metallic particles in there, the electronics all appeared fine. A few VW sites I've seen sell replacement hydraulic heads ($100-$125usd - 10mm-12mm) for VP37's and have commented that the heads do wear out and require periodic replacement. Not sure how long they are expected to last but mine had done approx 250,000kms. I think the VW crowd have been using the VP37's for a while before they were on freelanders so they're probably hitting the higher k's first. I'm debating whether to buy one of the replacement heads and gasket kits ($25usd) and rebuild my old pump. Might also require new feed pump ($25usd) and potentially cam plate ($35). I'd like a spare pump, but might just be more cost effective to get another low k's ex-UK one.

Also my Flandy has had a very hard life. From the amount of dust it had in it, offroad tyres worn to the steel and cb radio's it had I reckon it spent most of its life offroad - so no telling what quality diesel its been running. A lot of places say stick to main outlets that have a high turnover of diesel so if its been using skanky old farm diesel for a long time then that wouldn't help pump wear either.

Clark